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On February 24 2017 08:30 -NegativeZero- wrote:
from a design standpoint, mine nerf vs shield and hydra hp buff are great, but i don't like the corruptor speed buff, we really don't need more fast units in the game
i agree and i just don't want air units strengthened in the game. and any time a ground based anti-air unit gets buffed ( like hte Hydralisk ) i'm happy. i guess can tolerate the Corruptor speed buff if it must happen because its primarily an air superiority fighter.
please consider nerfing the cooldown on the Reaper's Mine.
The GSL has been great. I'm really proud of my Tournament Trophies!
keep up the great work Mr. Kim sir.
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On February 24 2017 08:33 Gwavajuice wrote:
I always found unintuitive that reaper's grenade could hit buildings. I wouldn't mind this change implemented.
The thing is, I don't think it really accomplishes the point. Basically, the anti-structure nerf helps making sure people don't outright die to 3-rax. But most people already don't. They fall (far) behind and eventually die to one of the follow-up attacks because they played from behind. Zergs stay on low drone count against mass reapers because they need attacking units, you can't afford to drone until you reach an amount of units you're comfortable with. You're already falling behind in economy. In that situation making a spine isn't going make you fall behind less.
I guess you could argue that making a spine that can't be killed by grenades would allow you to get away with less units to cover your bases. But A), optimally, you want to have enough units to kill the reapers, not just deter them, and B), a single spine isn't that scary.
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On February 24 2017 08:35 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 08:32 JayuSC2 wrote:Parasite Spore weapon damage point changed from .1193 to .0446. This is a buff, right? yeah, dmg point is the delay between the attack order and the attack itself, it's very low for marines and high for hellions, that's why marines can stutter step and hellions can't. so this buff the corruptor's ability to kite stuff
thx for the info kind sir.
On February 24 2017 09:01 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +We'll see how the mine nerf goes. From all I hear, top Korean Terrans are already very unhappy about the state of the match-up, well rather the metagame What a surprise that people are unhappy with the state of the meta. Is it, the 500th time now?
diverse race RTS games with more than 2 races take a long time to balance. LotV received a substantial reset after BlizzCon 2016. So its going to take a while.
i'm just happy Blizzard continues to commit resources to the game in the face of ATVI's biggest revenue quarter in its history and announcing 5% layoffs. We're damn fucking lucky Morhaime runs the show.
On February 24 2017 07:34 Drfilip wrote:
It looked like nobody had made a TL post about this, so I made this. I hope it is good enough.
i'm too old, lazy and slow to make TL threads. Thx for making this one.
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What an odd time to decide reapers need to be addressed. Maybe it is because ByuN was eliminated in the round of 32 in GSL and I haven't been watching too many small cups, but I haven't seen them be abused that much in the professional scene lately. They should have announced they were nerfing reapers during the middle of ByuN vs Dark at Blizzcon, but they probably didn't want to delegitimize ByuN's win.
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PvT will be 70% for P if the patch goes through and P receives no nerf. The mine and lib nerf are sound design wise but cumulating both will make T vastly underpowered vs P. A nerf to adepts and maybe prisms will be needed.
I'm ok with the hydra change. The corruptor change seems silly and I don't like to have yet another unit move at the speed of sound but some progamers seemed happy about the change and to see the corruptor become easier to maneuver. So I reserve my judgement on that one.
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The changes do look good. I hate widow mines in general so I'm glad to see it gets nerfed. However, I wonder if the change is a bit too much. +40 down to +25. Maybe down to only +30 would be better.
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I can't vote, I'm biased. But I'd like to see the results.
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I am ok with the corrupter buff simply because the unit might be more fun to use at that point. That's the important part, fun and rewarding good players over bad players.
No idea if it does anything balance wise though (against carriers), probably not.
I don't care about the hp buff on the hydra, it's lazy and doesn't improve the game at all.
The mine buff against shields was a bandaid in the first place. So sure design wise the nerf is good. Balance wise it has to be seen. Adepts might be a problem as others have mentioned.
About reapers: Why does the reaper have grenades in the first place? I don't think there is a good reason for that.
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After this patch Meta will be mass adepts for protoss, mmm for terran, ling+bane for zerg. As always have been 
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On February 24 2017 09:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I am ok with the corrupter buff simply because the unit might be more fun to use at that point. That's the important part, fun and rewarding good players over bad players. No idea if it does anything balance wise though (against carriers), probably not.
won't it make Corruptors more useful against the Phoenix?
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It would be best if they changed reapers to instead have more long term value. They have by far the least value outside of the mid-game for any gas intensive unit in the game. Their mobility, regen, and grenade ability to harass as well as slow down pushes makes them strong, but once the mid-game comes around, they just are too fragile and have too short of range to be efficient. Maybe if they intend to nerf this unit, they should compensate it with something that will give it more value in the mid-game. (Remember when they changed the sentry to have hallucination without upgrading first? ~ similar situation)
Maybe make the grenade stronger but make it a tech lab upgrade? I'm not totally sure what the right call is but I will say unable to damage structures would be a bad move. In TvZ, spines are relatively cheap in the early game compared 3 rax which cost minerals AND gas. Depending on the map, you'd need AT MOST 2 spines per base. By the time they finish, reapers most certainly will be shut down. They don't do that much damage against enemies that are not light and as I explained earlier, don't have potential to do much afterwards.
But in my personal opinion, a 3 rax isn't too difficult to deal with as zerg and there are multiple ways of dealing with it. For anyone that is struggling, if you respond with roaches, then it is best to morph them to ravagers. This allows you to get a beefy unit (that is also faster than a roach) and spend less LARVA. With speed-lings, (which remember are faster than reapers) you will want to only engage reapers with queens until the point in which you know have enough lings to surround and kill the reapers. Even though you spend more larva fighting them with lings (you also probably have less drones than if you made roach/ravager), you have more potential to catch up to and kill the reapers. A good terran will be active enough to always run from roach/ravager while you're defensive, and counter attack if you push out. With both of these strats, constant queens production is essential.
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Hasn't like 99% of the world figured out the whole TvZ reaper thing? Is there a population of people that haven't figured out how to hold this yet?
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All changes look great. Corrupters have been such a horrible anti air unit because of their slowness and I can't wait to see if this will change anything vs skytoss which has been untouchable for so long - though there's a high possiblity void rays arons and storm still just floor corrupters but perhaps it's possible to micro better out of storm and vs prasmitic alignment with these changes.
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Been asking this for months and once again: Why does reaper need the grenade to begin with?
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On February 24 2017 10:24 Exquisite7 wrote:
In TvZ, spines are relatively cheap in the early game compared 3 rax which cost minerals AND gas. Depending on the map, you'd need AT MOST 2 spines per base. By the time they finish, reapers most certainly will be shut down. They don't do that much damage against enemies that are not light and as I explained earlier, don't have potential to do much afterwards.
But in my personal opinion, a 3 rax isn't too difficult to deal with as zerg and there are multiple ways of dealing with it. For anyone that is struggling, if you respond with roaches, then it is best to morph them to ravagers. This allows you to get a beefy unit (that is also faster than a roach) and spend less LARVA. With speed-lings, (which remember are faster than reapers) you will want to only engage reapers with queens until the point in which you know have enough lings to surround and kill the reapers. Even though you spend more larva fighting them with lings (you also probably have less drones than if you made roach/ravager), you have more potential to catch up to and kill the reapers. A good terran will be active enough to always run from roach/ravager while you're defensive, and counter attack if you push out. With both of these strats, constant queens production is essential.
I am sorry but you probably never played zerg before. Making 2-4 spines for defending reapers is SO expensive and you fall behind by just making them.
I watched tons of 3 rax reaper unfortunately because its been around for a year now. I can easily say that speedling & queen defence has significantly more success rate than roaches, both in pro scene and my master 1 ladder experience. Making early roaches makes you fall behind just like spines so it doesn't even matter if you hold the reapers or not(except if its proxy reapers).
Reaper granade doesn't contribute anyting positive to the game and should be removed.
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On February 24 2017 11:08 xTJx wrote:
Been asking this for months and once again: Why does reaper need the grenade to begin with?
Maybe because its hard for design team to accept the fact that their idea was really stupid. Just like invincible nydus and warp prism range.
Well, at least tanks don't fly anymore.
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On February 24 2017 09:08 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 08:33 Gwavajuice wrote:
I always found unintuitive that reaper's grenade could hit buildings. I wouldn't mind this change implemented. The thing is, I don't think it really accomplishes the point. Basically, the anti-structure nerf helps making sure people don't outright die to 3-rax. But most people already don't. They fall (far) behind and eventually die to one of the follow-up attacks because they played from behind. Zergs stay on low drone count against mass reapers because they need attacking units, you can't afford to drone until you reach an amount of units you're comfortable with. You're already falling behind in economy. In that situation making a spine isn't going make you fall behind less. I guess you could argue that making a spine that can't be killed by grenades would allow you to get away with less units to cover your bases. But A), optimally, you want to have enough units to kill the reapers, not just deter them, and B), a single spine isn't that scary.
I suppose it won't kill creep tumors either, which could be huge in early game....
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Ro8 GSL has shown how stupid mass adepts phoenix with warp prism is, so I think the widow mine nerf is overkill.
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On February 24 2017 11:41 ilikeredheads wrote:
Ro8 GSL has shown how stupid mass adepts phoenix with warp prism is, so I think the widow mine nerf is overkill.
how many TvP games have occurred so far in the GSL RO8? 5?
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Hydralisk buff + Corruptor buff: many happy Zergs!
Mine nerf: PvT will probably start leaning toward Protoss again? Phoenix-Adept might become the go-to after this patch. It will be also interesting to see how well Chargelot openings might fare after this change.
Reaper nerf: some people are saying that since one of the reasons people don't make static-d against triple rax reapers is because the grenades demolish static-d (on top of the mobility of reapers), it would be interesting to see how well static-d work out against triple rax reapers if the KD8 grenade doesn't do damage to structures anymore. This is definitely an out-of-the-box idea (since it looks so bad on paper), it might be interesting if this somehow proves to be a sufficient change.
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EPT
