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On January 24 2017 08:07 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 05:46 todespolka wrote:
This was not necessary, because nobody should engage liberators head on. It is the purpose of the unit to zone out and to create safe haven, where other weaker units can retreat.
It is very dangerous to weaken the liberator, because it could bring back the old sc2, where you can't defend big armies, where a deathball is all you need, where comebacks are impossible and where protoss only has to a move.
Lotv has finally so much in common with bw, i would lose hope if we turtle back. Well with the tanks that creates a 13 zone you shouldn't go, and WM, and liberator, tanks/WM/liberators is a deathball vs Protoss ground. Also T used to siege their lib right in the face of Protoss army, and P only have blink stalkers vs Liberators. Still liberator will have 65.8 DPS, that's still pretty insane
AFAICT, no one uses tanks outside of timings in TvP. It's always better to just get more liberators and mines instead.
That said this change is fine. I'd still prefer reducing liberator damage by 5 (instead of 10) so it only changes the interaction with stalkers, and reducing mine splash vs shields (because it makes NO SENSE that it makes more +damage than the primary hit), but this works too.
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this is terrible. blizzard dont even follow their own game its kinda sad. without liberators being broken as they were. u simply cannot win fights since the marauder got nerfed so heavely at start of lotv. really what makes tvp strong early game is fact
u can do a timing push 2-3 tank bio and its hard for protoss to stop but now days it isnt even that hard to stop
protoss started to figure this out and stop dieing to it. so nerfing liberator is completly pointless.
my solution woulda been this nerf tank damage by some porcetange and in the same patch u nerf ravager so tank can deal with them still somewhat good, since u cant pick up em anymore.
sometimes i wonder if blizzard even listen to ppl that play their game or they just randomly make things up. so sad i wanna see terran win tvp fights with libs being bad in fights not 1 shotting templars / sentry and 3shotting stalker is huge. right now all fights center aboiut terran hopefully killing all stalkers so they dont get run over by just how much worse bio got since maruader split damage
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Still not good enough changes to make me play SC2 actively again. I'm still better off playing CS and other games.
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On January 24 2017 09:07 Major wrote:
this is terrible. blizzard dont even follow their own game its kinda sad. without liberators being broken as they were. u simply cannot win fights since the marauder got nerfed so heavely at start of lotv. really what makes tvp strong early game is fact
u can do a timing push 2-3 tank bio and its hard for protoss to stop but now days it isnt even that hard to stop
protoss started to figure this out and stop dieing to it. so nerfing liberator is completly pointless.
my solution woulda been this nerf tank damage by some porcetange and in the same patch u nerf ravager so tank can deal with them still somewhat good, since u cant pick up em anymore.
sometimes i wonder if blizzard even listen to ppl that play their game or they just randomly make things up. so sad i wanna see terran win tvp fights with libs being bad in fights not 1 shotting templars / sentry and 3shotting stalker is huge. right now all fights center aboiut terran hopefully killing all stalkers so they dont get run over by just how much worse bio got since maruader split damage
They do listen to the people that play their game - that's the problem.
99.9% of the people who play the game have no idea how to play, but they all know how to make a post on the forums.
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there's still too much overlap between tanks and liberators.. with liberators being the superior unit. it doesn't need to be in the game at all
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On January 24 2017 09:18 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
there's still too much overlap between tanks and liberators.. with liberators being the superior unit. it doesn't need to be in the game at all
XD? really? u even play this game? they dont overlap at all. tanks are slow take long to siege normally, do 1 shot and die. while libs make u able to fight straigh on get multiple shot. and kill keys lets remove liberator. so i cant kill a single ultra. sounds genious
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the Viper sucks. a hanging, flying unit that can pull a siege tank out of the ground while remaining motionless in mid-air. umm ya ok. the Brood War flying Queen broodling-thing was better as an air anti-tank unit.
On January 24 2017 06:56 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 05:12 NonY wrote:On January 24 2017 05:07 BronzeKnee wrote:
I've been saying since 2012 that Blizzard is way too slow on balancing the game. They were late with the 4 gate nerf back in early WOL, late with the 1-1-1 nerfs, late with BL/Infestor nerf, late with Vortex nerf... it just goes on and on. and you can keep saying it however much you want. you have no way of checking for the alternative I can check for the alternative, because it happened. This is about qualitative analysis (even though quantity of their poor balance history is pages long).
alternative you say? alternative?
my alternatives are Red Alert 2 and 3 and CoH1. SC2 is still better than them. i don't live in a dream world where i think some massive multi-billion dollar corporation will cater to my every whim just because Blizzard's official PR policy is to never stand up to paying customers.
i post conservative suggestions and a reasonable portion of the time changes occur along the lines of what i ask for. when i don't get the changes i want and the resulting game is fun i keep on playing it and i keep giving Blizzard more money.
i bet you SC2 is going to be better than Halo Wars 2.... which is another alternative.
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On January 24 2017 09:18 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
there's still too much overlap between tanks and liberators.. with liberators being the superior unit. it doesn't need to be in the game at all
Yeah i agree. Balance wise terran surely needs it right now, but concept wise it's a horrible addition to the terran arsenal.
Terran already had a starport unit it can harras with, terran already had a siege unit, terran already had a unit which deals with mutas. Adding a unit simply for the sake of adding a unit.
But you could say the same about most units added in both hots and lotv tbh
On January 24 2017 09:22 Major wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 09:18 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
there's still too much overlap between tanks and liberators.. with liberators being the superior unit. it doesn't need to be in the game at all XD? really? u even play this game? they dont overlap at all. tanks are slow take long to siege normally, do 1 shot and die. while libs make u able to fight straigh on get multiple shot. and kill keys lets remove liberator. so i cant kill a single ultra. sounds genious
It's more about the concept. The liberator and the siege tank are both siege units. Instead of making the tank viable they simply gave that siege role to a unit which doesn't care about terrain and is harder to kill because it flies. You are right that terran needs the liberator in the current version of sc2 though, but it really shouldn't need it is the main point tbh.
On January 24 2017 09:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:the Viper sucks. a hanging, flying unit that can pull a siege tank out of the ground while remaining motionless in mid-air. umm ya ok. the Brood War flying Queen broodling-thing was better as an air anti-tank unit. Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 06:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 24 2017 05:12 NonY wrote:On January 24 2017 05:07 BronzeKnee wrote:
I've been saying since 2012 that Blizzard is way too slow on balancing the game. They were late with the 4 gate nerf back in early WOL, late with the 1-1-1 nerfs, late with BL/Infestor nerf, late with Vortex nerf... it just goes on and on. and you can keep saying it however much you want. you have no way of checking for the alternative I can check for the alternative, because it happened. This is about qualitative analysis (even though quantity of their poor balance history is pages long). alternative you say? alternative? my alternatives are Red Alert 2 and 3 and CoH1. SC2 is still better than them. i don't live in a dream world where i think some massive multi-billion dollar corporation will cater to my every whim just because Blizzard's official PR policy is to never stand up to paying customers. i post conservative suggestions and a reasonable portion of the time changes occur along the lines of what i ask for. when i don't get the changes i want and the resulting game is fun i keep on playing it and i keep giving Blizzard more money. i bet you SC2 is going to be better than Halo Wars 2.... which is another alternative.
Are you criticizing the animation? Or are you trying to argue it shouldn't work that way because of real word physics? Not entirely sure tbh.
Just because sc2 is the best modern product overall doesn't mean that a lot of its parts cannot be improved/criticized.
Why not discuss potential "problems" on a case by case basis? Having fun/Being happy with a product doesn't mean it's the best it could be. It's imo important to try to understand WHY you like/dislike some things and how these things interfere with the goals of said game (rts concepts here basically).
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On January 24 2017 09:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Instead of making the tank viable they simply gave that siege role to a unit which doesn't care about terrain and is harder to kill because it flies.
Liberators do care about terrain. Specifically they care about positioning them such that terrain makes it difficult for ground units to hit them. What they don't care about is collision/pathing with your own ground units.
And tanks are viable in TvZ and TvT. They just aren't viable in TvP at highest levels (or maybe they're viable but not optimal, but we don't know because high-level play is optimal play).
I don't see the problem with different units being used in different matchups. Liberator being the single target/lower range/smaller area option while tanks are splash/higher range/higher area. Certainly it's preferable to Blizzard removing the liberator and fucking around for six months trying to make tanks viable in TvP and not broken in TvZ and TvT, and then giving up so we're back to HoTS with terrans multidropping all the things all the time until their wrists break.
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On January 24 2017 09:22 Major wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 09:18 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
there's still too much overlap between tanks and liberators.. with liberators being the superior unit. it doesn't need to be in the game at all XD? really? u even play this game? they dont overlap at all. tanks are slow take long to siege normally, do 1 shot and die. while libs make u able to fight straigh on get multiple shot. and kill keys lets remove liberator. so i cant kill a single ultra. sounds genious
yes I play and I watch a ton of starcraft
and I don't feel like liberators are needed in this game. they're IMO just like how swarm hosts used to be. they are simple to execute, boring to watch, and extremely taxing to avoid.
you play terran.. i dont expect your opinions to be neutral
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Well yes they "care about terrain" as in making it harder for the enemy. But that's the point, it's a flying unit which can do exactly that rather easily. (so in reality the other units "care"/are limited by it) At the point where it was added it also did a lot more than that, it countered mutalisks/light air, it gave siege potential and harass. Right now it's not that bad anymore, but it's still an extremely crucial unit which does things other units were designed to do in the first place. If we are positive we can say "hey it's ok to have units which overlap/ are used in different matchups" but to me it looks more like blizzard bandaid fixing things with one unit.
TBF though, this might not be a liberator problem but rather a "in sc2 air units in general are too strong in comparison to ground antiair" one.
But hey maybe it's also just a dps issue, was pretty insanse tbh
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Well i play zerg, but seems like this is the right way from what i've been hearing from Protoss players.
For futher patches i suggest removing reaper grenade and addressing carriers.
I honestly think Carrier is a dumb amove unit that adds nothing to the game in terms of strategy, but it seems that Blizzard really like them, so they should either buff Hydra AA or tone down interceptors.
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A step in the right direction.
I agree with Classic, nerf Widow mine, as he said, they have too high damage for the cost. The terran doesnt even feel the hurt from losing widow mines because they are so cheap. ie. increase their cost or decrease their damage.
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On January 24 2017 10:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Well yes they "care about terrain" as in making it harder for the enemy. But that's the point, it's a flying unit which can do exactly that rather easily. (so in reality the other units "care"/are limited by it)
I don't see the need to make things harder for the sake of being hard. Right now I still see top terrans (most often foreigners, but mid-level koreans too) routinely fucking up their liberator positioning/sieging on top of stalker balls/losing their liberators to static-d. If the only guy who can handle this stuff properly is Ty, then it's a sign that the unit is difficult enough to use, even if it looks easy in isolation.
Right now it's not that bad anymore, but it's still an extremely crucial unit which does things other units were designed to do in the first place. If we are positive we can say "hey it's ok to have units which overlap/ are used in different matchups" but to me it looks more like blizzard bandaid fixing things with one unit.
When LotV came out they wanted a positional unit so they introduced the Liberator, and, instead of buffing tank damage they made it a mini-reaver with medivac pickup. So I don't see it as a bandaid, more a consequence of wanting to do something "cool" with the tank and adding some form of space-control, which wasn't a thing that existed before LotV (tanks were too weak).
Now they're both positional units because tankivacs were bad for the game, but still very different in how they operate, so both are used in different match ups. I don't see an easy solution to making tanks a replacement for liberators in TvP, so if the alternative is doing something awkward or hackish with tanks (like adding +shield damage as well as +armored) to make them work, how is that better?
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I'm not against shifting "fighting power" away from the liberator towards other units. Bio with lib support is obviously very strong in TvP, and i'm kinda sick of seeing every single pro TvP being bio mine libs.
However maybe it's time to think about other terran options. If liberators don't 2shot gate units (and that's a huuuuge deal in TvP), maybe some very underused other terran options could be buffed (thors in TvP? Banshees in TvP? Ravens in TvP? Hellbats in TvP?).
I dunno, i suppose we'll have to see how this will turn out, but i would much rather see a nerf of the liberator's rate of fire so that lib isn't that strong in "mindless" harass instead of being weaker infight.
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I think the fact that hydras are no longer 1 shot is huge. Same with High Templar / Sentry not being 1 shot either.. Like I think the direction blizzard is heading in is right however for protoss I would just say revert tempest back to 4 supply keep their anti air range the same give them 8 ground range (So they only do their job vs air). This way they can trade with a unit they are meant to trade with, the liberators. As for Zerg they're going to be getting +10 hp to hydras.. Is there going to be some type of compensation Terran gets or anything? Also don't get me wrong I think Terran is very powerful right now but id much rather see lib range nerfed than the liberators damage reduced by 10.
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I totally agree about the Liberator change
It is a broken unit - free win unit
WM + liber = army
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Liberators aren't even that big of a deal for me in PvT... honestly it's the Widow Mine drops that are the problem. They take almost no skill to execute but can be pretty much game ending. It literally just takes all fun out of the game.
Liberators force you to go Stargate to defend Widow Mine drops, and with the Oracle change that's a lot harder than it used to be.
I think if they can add something like a fusion core requirement for Liberators, Protoss players can open Robo to more reliably deal with Widow mine drops without fearing a Liberator follow up.
What do you guys think?
Honestly, for me PvT feels broken at an APM/skill level.... the early game aggression/harass options for Terran take multiples more clicks/apm to deal with than to execute. Defending a widow mine drop with Stargate can shut it down completely, but one tiny little fuck up and bam, 10 probes dead. Game over.
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On January 24 2017 09:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Just because sc2 is the best modern product overall doesn't mean that a lot of its parts cannot be improved/criticized.
Why not discuss potential "problems" on a case by case basis? Having fun/Being happy with a product doesn't mean it's the best it could be. It's imo important to try to understand WHY you like/dislike some things and how these things interfere with the goals of said game (rts concepts here basically).
the consumer's "alternative" is to play a different RTS. the game designer's "alternative" is to raise money and make their own game. i'm a consumer.
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On January 24 2017 12:21 DinoMight wrote:
Liberators aren't even that big of a deal for me in PvT... honestly it's the Widow Mine drops that are the problem. They take almost no skill to execute but can be pretty much game ending. It literally just takes all fun out of the game.
Liberators force you to go Stargate to defend Widow Mine drops, and with the Oracle change that's a lot harder than it used to be.
I think if they can add something like a fusion core requirement for Liberators, Protoss players can open Robo to more reliably deal with Widow mine drops without fearing a Liberator follow up.
What do you guys think?
Honestly, for me PvT feels broken at an APM/skill level.... the early game aggression/harass options for Terran take multiples more clicks/apm to deal with than to execute. Defending a widow mine drop with Stargate can shut it down completely, but one tiny little fuck up and bam, 10 probes dead. Game over.
im going to speak for me only here. as terran the only reason i make mines is because the existence of the oracle at all.opening 3 rax stim after expanding is completely killed by fast oracle as well as opening with hellions or anything else. you are forced to get at least a mine in tvp, and if you don't you'll be sorry you did. you will always take damage from the oracle and you cannot stop it. even if the mine gets the first one, the second one will still get you amazing benefits, ignoring the speed at which it punishes and undefended mineral line. at least when a mine gets in your base you can sacrifice one worker(provided it gets burrowed at all, which is rare for me) and its over for the most part. thats more you can say for the oracle. that unit shouldn't even be in the game. its totally stupid and allows you to see every movement of the terran army provided you can keep it alive,which shouldn't be hard given its insane speed... i mean look at the standard tvp opening right now, done with the best success currently by innovation. it opens reaper expand after checking things out with an scv to scout(which is insanely hard considering at any point before you stim you can die to a myriad of all-ins, cheeses, and timings) which is followed up by two mines, then two tanks. the mines are to try to mitigate oracle "harass" and the tanks are to hold blink stalker and glaive adept attacks. this is your game plan as terran before you even get in the game. as a low level master player, and even for the greats, they cannot just counter one thing with their opener, because the scouting is so hard, and even when you invest scv mining time, a reaper, and scans, you still might not see the tell that can help you counter one timing from protoss early. in my opinion the talent the top terran players have at scouting and reading protoss is amazing.
tldr: id go eye for eye, remove the oracle and the mine from the game. ive hated both units since they're introduction, along with the viper and they haven't gotten any more fun to play against over the year either.
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EPT
