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On January 27 2017 08:35 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 08:30 DeadByDawn wrote:On January 27 2017 08:04 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 27 2017 07:49 DeadByDawn wrote:On January 27 2017 07:23 DinoMight wrote:On January 27 2017 06:59 Gullis wrote:
It is pretty dumb to talk about bio being to strong without even mentioning the production mechanics of the other races,
Bio had to be "to strong" because of warp gates( which is cancerous as fuck) and to a lesser degree injects.
Even with bio being so strong we still have had times when terran got straight up owned by gateway units because of warp gate.
In the end I think it is pretty redundant to discuss if it is "op bio" that forces "op splash" or "op warp gate/inject" that forces "op bio", because it is all part of "terrible terrible damage", the economy and the hard counter system which I think is the real causes of the frustration with this game.
Medivac boost has nothing to do with the Warpgate mechanic, IMO. Game was perfectly fine without it. But it is very difficult to drop an attentive player without it, especially if they have good building or unit placement for vision. And hard to escape with any units, or the medivac even. And if I cannot do early damage when playing bio, or lose a drop, then I am pretty much dead and buried. If I remember well drop play was dead at the end of WOL because medivacs were too slow. Players had gotten so good at deflecting them that they were obsolete. Indeed. There were many easy ways to counter the drop, and the loss of the units and medivac was game ending. Then we got boost, which is a powerful but not OP mechanism (given the defensive abilities of the races). Boost in to get some quick damage, or boost out to save units, or even abort the drop and boost away if there is more defense than you bargained for. Exactly, thats not fun when the other race cant do much about it except having a bunch of units ready at all time. Or just some very super defence such as mscore, warpgate or 30% extra movement speed on creep. All of these things needs a fix imo but i would lie to myself if i truly think blizzard will do much good for this game.
Agreed. There seems to have been this arms race in SC2 where things have got ever more powerful, for the WOW factor, and to counter ever more powerful options available to the other side.
I really wish that when Blizz see a problem they explore nerfs first and buffs as a last resort.
I would say that I still like the game, but there is so much more it could have been.
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I'm hydra-polar...How many times is my heart going to rise and fall before I can finally put my hopes of playing again to rest?
The dream...the HP buff dream...I mean, since liberator damage is the main reason why hydras are unusable in ZvT this is a huge step in the right direction  . I know my reasons are totally selfish and that the real reason Blizzard did this was for PvT, but I'd like to think that they too, would like to see hydras in ZvT .
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Protoss:
Zealots are now crappier, enjoy. Dragoons are now called stalkers and they're shit, enjoy!
Zerg:
Zerglings are now crappier, enjoy. Hydras are now T2 overpriced glass cannons that only work against protoss and you have no AA until lair. Have fun!
Terran:
Medic and dropship combined in the most comically over-powered way possible
Marauder added to bio army for base-sniping
Marines ignore attack animation and fire instantly, allowing easy stutter stepping
Mules make workers unimportant, you always have enough minerals to make the only unit you'll ever need: marines
I totally agree to this.
I don't understand either. Playstyles from other races nearly always got nerfed when they got too good / hard to counter. Colossi / Blink Stalkers in HotS ... BL/ Infestor in WoL, Swarmhosts in HotS ... it always was nerfed down to nearly unplayable at least with the next expansion.
But terran bio seems to be inviolable balancewise. It was strong from the beginning (comparison to Brood War shows that point), and with every expansion it only always got stronger and stronger ... if not by itself, then by adding units which fit perfectly in bio play (wm, libs, tankivacs ... okay last point is the only thing which got reverted ... but in the end just a small point). It's just weird when blizzard always announced they want to make mech viable again but never get to the point this might not be possible without clearly nerfing the way-to-powerful bio style.
Terran is just bad designed (not only at the moment, but for years). Each race should have an advantage going for tier 3 Tech units. Zerg has and needs BL, Ultras or Vipers in a lot of late game szenarios. Protoss has and needs Colossi, HT, Carrier and even the hugely nerfed Tempest in a lot of late game szenarios.
Terran has ghosts, thors and BC (okay, maybe raven too, hard to say if it's more T2 or T3). But besides ghosts your nearly never need Thors or BCs. Not because they are too week ... they are just not needed, cause bio compositions, esp. with wm/lib and as i mentioned maybe ghosts can deal very decent with most of the other races late game compositions ...
THERE should the changes be setted.
But I am afraid blizzard don't want to really touch this matter. If they wanted, they should have done this with the beginning of LotV. Cause it is much too huge for a small game patch.
So small changes can be only done for all those complementary units i think. Lib debuff is a first step, but i doubt it will be enough (or is even the right change, cause libs may be awful, but the bigger problem are widow mines i think).
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Yeah, its kinda sad to realize, that the whole essence of SC2 is BIO. The rest is just framing.
I can clearly see that picture when SC2 was in alpha stage of development and designers were obsessed with idea of making it different from bw and that way they came up with this... Well, i can't say they completely failed with that medivac+bio thing. You can't deny ZvT (bio vs bane muta) is both fun to play and watch and requires good mechanics and fundamentals (no room for poorly skilled players). But thats were it ends. As time showed, this whole mechanic could not be integrated into a classic RTS concept, it remains alien, requiring band-aid solutions like massive aoe in form of colosi etc (everything that LSN talks about in his posts). So yeah, without revamping the game from scratch we are destined to brag about nerfing/buffing units that support/counter bio. Because Blizzard never ever touched (and even dared to discuss) starcraft core concept - the marine. I mean, it is not the end of the world. Its still a great rts experience.
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On January 27 2017 07:49 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 07:23 DinoMight wrote:On January 27 2017 06:59 Gullis wrote:
It is pretty dumb to talk about bio being to strong without even mentioning the production mechanics of the other races,
Bio had to be "to strong" because of warp gates( which is cancerous as fuck) and to a lesser degree injects.
Even with bio being so strong we still have had times when terran got straight up owned by gateway units because of warp gate.
In the end I think it is pretty redundant to discuss if it is "op bio" that forces "op splash" or "op warp gate/inject" that forces "op bio", because it is all part of "terrible terrible damage", the economy and the hard counter system which I think is the real causes of the frustration with this game.
Medivac boost has nothing to do with the Warpgate mechanic, IMO. Game was perfectly fine without it. But it is very difficult to drop an attentive player without it, especially if they have good building or unit placement for vision. And hard to escape with any units, or the medivac even. And if I cannot do early damage when playing bio, or lose a drop, then I am pretty much dead and buried.
Yeah, you're right. When you go Bio you are basically locked into massive drop play. If you don't do damage early on and build your army and expand while doing it, you won't be able to win.
If you take a step back though, the other option always has been—as others have already said in this thread—to rework the Terran late game army. I imagine, they didn't do that because it's more complicated. Ultimately Terran simply doesn't have a strong, viable late game army and therefore Bio has to be strong.
The problem is that once players adapt to harassment and become better at defending drops these buffs fall flat. This is imo what showed at the end of HotS in PvT where Protoss would just defend until they had their way superior T3 army and just crushed Terran like nobody's business.
Another point I want to make is that Bio play doesn't work without Mule economy. I imagine this was the reason why they immediately reimplemented the macro mechanics in the LotV beta (after two glorious weeks :D). Terran was a shell of its former self without being able to pump reactored Marines. This also indicates that Bio has a severe design problem.
A third point is that Medivacs are to supply efficient because they mix two roles (Transport and Healer). Imagine if these roles were split as they were in BW (into Dropship and Medic). The equivalent of a 2 Medivac 16 Marine (4 + 16 = 20 supply) drop would be 2 Dropships, 2 medics and 12 Marines (4 + 4 + 12 = 20 supply). This equals an immediate 25% DPS drop because you have 1/4th less Marines. Not to mention that fights would require more skill because Medics are slower than stimmed Marines/Marauders and you would have to wait for them to catch up.
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On January 27 2017 19:07 insitelol wrote:
Yeah, its kinda sad to realize, that the whole essence of SC2 is BIO. The rest is just framing.
I can clearly see that picture when SC2 was in alpha stage of development and designers were obsessed with idea of making it different from bw and that way they came up with this... Well, i can't say they completely failed with that medivac+bio thing. You can't deny ZvT (bio vs bane muta) is both fun to play and watch and requires good mechanics and fundamentals (no room for poorly skilled players). But thats were it ends. As time showed, this whole mechanic could not be integrated into a classic RTS concept, it remains alien, requiring band-aid solutions like massive aoe in form of colosi etc (everything that LSN talks about in his posts). So yeah, without revamping the game from scratch we are destined to brag about nerfing/buffing units that support/counter bio. Because Blizzard never ever touched (and even dared to discuss) starcraft core concept - the marine. I mean, it is not the end of the world. Its still a great rts experience.
I feel like I'm having a big dejavu in this thread. This issue has been discussed a lot back in WoL beta. Many of the design decisions were heavily criticized back then. Several people could see that things like medivac (dropship + medics) would be problematic. Marauders are also problematic because they essentially fulfill the tank's role while being very mobile and having stimpack, making Bio completely independent and complete. The lack of goliath (the viking is a poor man goliath design-wise) is also obviously a design problem that would make mech very vulnerable.
It was not hard to see back then that the design team first goal is to make sure that the game wasn't like BW. Then maybe the second goal was to make a well designed game. I just find it funny that back then anyone that pointed these same issues was instantly labeled as a "BW elitist" that just "wanted SC2 to be exactly like BW".
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On January 27 2017 20:00 Turb0Sw4g wrote:
A third point is that Medivacs are to supply efficient because they mix two roles (Transport and Healer). Imagine if these roles were split as they were in BW (into Dropship and Medic). The equivalent of a 2 Medivac 16 Marine (4 + 16 = 20 supply) drop would be 2 Dropships, 2 medics and 12 Marines (4 + 4 + 12 = 20 supply). This equals an immediate 25% DPS drop because you have 1/4th less Marines. Not to mention that fights would require more skill because Medics are slower than stimmed Marines/Marauders and you would have to wait for them to catch up.
I was thinking about that issue as well but no matter how hard i tried to find a reasonable solution, i realised it could only be brought down to nerfing medivac healing/stim so that they would look like their BW counterparts. So, essentially, it will just lead to BW2. I mean, do we really need that?
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On January 27 2017 20:58 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 19:07 insitelol wrote:
Yeah, its kinda sad to realize, that the whole essence of SC2 is BIO. The rest is just framing.
I can clearly see that picture when SC2 was in alpha stage of development and designers were obsessed with idea of making it different from bw and that way they came up with this... Well, i can't say they completely failed with that medivac+bio thing. You can't deny ZvT (bio vs bane muta) is both fun to play and watch and requires good mechanics and fundamentals (no room for poorly skilled players). But thats were it ends. As time showed, this whole mechanic could not be integrated into a classic RTS concept, it remains alien, requiring band-aid solutions like massive aoe in form of colosi etc (everything that LSN talks about in his posts). So yeah, without revamping the game from scratch we are destined to brag about nerfing/buffing units that support/counter bio. Because Blizzard never ever touched (and even dared to discuss) starcraft core concept - the marine. I mean, it is not the end of the world. Its still a great rts experience. I feel like I'm having a big dejavu in this thread. This issue has been discussed a lot back in WoL beta. Many of the design decisions were heavily criticized back then. Several people could see that things like medivac (dropship + medics) would be problematic. Marauders are also problematic because they essentially fulfill the tank's role while being very mobile and having stimpack, making Bio completely independent and complete. The lack of goliath (the viking is a poor man goliath design-wise) is also obviously a design problem that would make mech very vulnerable. It was not hard to see back then that the design team first goal is to make sure that the game wasn't like BW. Then maybe the second goal was to make a well designed game. I just find it funny that back then anyone that pointed these same issues was instantly labeled as a "BW elitist" that just "wanted SC2 to be exactly like BW".
Well if anything that is *not* like BW is *bad design* then probably you don't really need SC2, right? I mean BW is still alive and you can always play it, and it's a lot of fun
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On January 27 2017 21:26 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 20:58 petro1987 wrote:On January 27 2017 19:07 insitelol wrote:
Yeah, its kinda sad to realize, that the whole essence of SC2 is BIO. The rest is just framing.
I can clearly see that picture when SC2 was in alpha stage of development and designers were obsessed with idea of making it different from bw and that way they came up with this... Well, i can't say they completely failed with that medivac+bio thing. You can't deny ZvT (bio vs bane muta) is both fun to play and watch and requires good mechanics and fundamentals (no room for poorly skilled players). But thats were it ends. As time showed, this whole mechanic could not be integrated into a classic RTS concept, it remains alien, requiring band-aid solutions like massive aoe in form of colosi etc (everything that LSN talks about in his posts). So yeah, without revamping the game from scratch we are destined to brag about nerfing/buffing units that support/counter bio. Because Blizzard never ever touched (and even dared to discuss) starcraft core concept - the marine. I mean, it is not the end of the world. Its still a great rts experience. I feel like I'm having a big dejavu in this thread. This issue has been discussed a lot back in WoL beta. Many of the design decisions were heavily criticized back then. Several people could see that things like medivac (dropship + medics) would be problematic. Marauders are also problematic because they essentially fulfill the tank's role while being very mobile and having stimpack, making Bio completely independent and complete. The lack of goliath (the viking is a poor man goliath design-wise) is also obviously a design problem that would make mech very vulnerable. It was not hard to see back then that the design team first goal is to make sure that the game wasn't like BW. Then maybe the second goal was to make a well designed game. I just find it funny that back then anyone that pointed these same issues was instantly labeled as a "BW elitist" that just "wanted SC2 to be exactly like BW". Well if anything that is *not* like BW is *bad design* then probably you don't really need SC2, right? I mean BW is still alive and you can always play it, and it's a lot of fun
It seems that after 7 years we still have the same exact response going on. It's good to know some things never change. Where exactly I said that anything that is not like BW is bad design? Are you reading minds now? I just said that some things in the game are badly design (obviously in my opinion). They could have made it right and not copied BW. Unfortunely, they didn't.
Just to make it clearer. In the goliath vs thor issue, they could have made a different unit that was not a goliath, but actually fulfill the design role that goliath did. The problem is they put a worst unit (the thor) just for the sake of being different. That happened in several other situations as well.
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On January 27 2017 21:16 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 20:00 Turb0Sw4g wrote:
A third point is that Medivacs are to supply efficient because they mix two roles (Transport and Healer). Imagine if these roles were split as they were in BW (into Dropship and Medic). The equivalent of a 2 Medivac 16 Marine (4 + 16 = 20 supply) drop would be 2 Dropships, 2 medics and 12 Marines (4 + 4 + 12 = 20 supply). This equals an immediate 25% DPS drop because you have 1/4th less Marines. Not to mention that fights would require more skill because Medics are slower than stimmed Marines/Marauders and you would have to wait for them to catch up. I was thinking about that issue as well but no matter how hard i tried to find a reasonable solution, i realised it could only be brought down to nerfing medivac healing/stim so that they would look like their BW counterparts. So, essentially, it will just lead to BW2. I mean, do we really need that?
I'm not sure about the solution either. But, I think it's pretty clear that having units without clear cut roles/responsibilities consistently leads to balance problems.
Off the top of my head, here's the units which have mixed roles for all races
- Terran
- Medivac (transport, healing)
- Liberator (anti-air/splash anti-air, siege)
- Reaper (scouting, harassment, crowd control)
KD8 Charge is a light form of crowd control.
- Protoss
- Oracle (vision/detection, harassment, crowd control)
Stasis Ward gives crowd control.
- Adept (scouting, harassment, tanking)
- Zerg
- Queen (macro, healing, anti-air, anti-ground)
I think it's easy to see that these units are or have been problematic. Personally, I think it would make balancing the game a lot easier if the roles were more distinct. For example, giving Zerg Tier 1.5 Hydras—Hatchery + Hydra Den only tech requirement—and removing all attacks from the Queen would prevent a lot of abuse (mass Queen, Nydus strats especially).
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On January 27 2017 21:46 Turb0Sw4g wrote:
I'm not sure about the solution either. But, I think it's pretty clear that having units without clear cut roles/responsibilities consistently leads to balance problems.
I agree, but it still sounds pretty abstract.
Ofc every design decision should be as simplier and clearer as possible, but BW had "kinda" taken that niche so SC2 designers are "kinda" forced to search for new solutions.
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On January 27 2017 22:12 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 21:46 Turb0Sw4g wrote:
I'm not sure about the solution either. But, I think it's pretty clear that having units without clear cut roles/responsibilities consistently leads to balance problems. I agree, but it still sounds pretty abstract. Ofc every design decision should be as simplier and clearer as possible, but BW had "kinda" taken that niche so SC2 designers are "kinda" forced to search for new solutions.
Don't really agree that they were forced to make something new, nor that they should have done something to change what made BW what it is.
On January 27 2017 22:12 insitelol wrote:
I agree, but it still sounds pretty abstract.
Ok, I'll flesh it out a little.
- Terran
- Medivac
Change: Split into Dropship and Medic.
Reasoning: This makes drops less supply and cost efficient. Also stim-and-a-move is less viable because Medics are slower than stimmed Marines/Marauders. This opens up the possibility to make non-Bio units stronger in straight up engagements.
- Liberator (
anti-air/splash anti-air, harassment, siege)
Change: Remove anti-air (to make it unable to trade with air units). Put behind Tech Lab and Fusion Core requirement. Make Liberation Zone cone shape (e.g. 1/5th of a circle in front of the Liberator). (Potentially buff Concord Canon.)
Reasoning: The Liberator now has a clear role which is pushing positions. It will always require support units to cover flanks and guard against air, so massing Liberators is automatically discouraged. The anti-air/anti-air-splash role is removed from the Liberator (that's the job of Thors and Vikings anyway). The harassment role is not removed but made less viable because Liberators can be flanked more easily (A2G harassment imo should be the Banshee's job in case you're wondering).
- Reaper (scouting, harassment,
crowd control)
Change: Remove KD8 Charge and Combat Drugs.
Reasoning: Reapers now only scout and potentially deal a little damage. 3 Rax Reaper wouldn't work anymore because of permanent damage and because Reapers cannot fight straight up without KD8 Charge.
- Protoss
- Oracle (vision/detection,
harassment, crowd control)
Change: Simply remove the death beam and maybe make the Stasis Ward a little less expensive.
Reasoning: Lo and behold, Queens suddenly do not need anti-air anymore in PvZ early game. No more Oracle bullshit. Lower cost on stasis makes defending third bases easier for Protoss which balances out the loss of harassment potential.
- Adept (
scouting, harassment, tanking)
Change: Replace Psionic Transfer with an ability which simply gives them more movement speed so you can micro better. A passive ability which builds movement speed stacks each attack and decays after a while would be cool.
Reason: Adept is just a combat unit now and cannot be abused for scouting. Shading on top of enemy armies is also impossible now.
- Zerg
- Queen (macro, healing,
anti-air, anti-ground)
Change: Remove attacks and instead make Hydras Tier 1.5 (Hatcher + Hydra Den tech requirement).
Reason: Zerg is basically save against every early game air threat with Tier 1.5 Hydras and mass Queen bullshit is now heavily discouraged as it should be.
Obviously it's hard to estimate what this would do in the end. To me it looks like that having more compact roles on these units would immediately solve a lot of problematic stuff (OP Liberators, 3 Rax Reaper, mass Queen bullshit, Oracle/Adept harassment). I also think it's a general principle that should be kept in mind when unit changes are considered.
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The solution of the bio problem cannot be thought of a fixed state but a process. Whenever you try to think of a state it wont work as there are too many variables. A potential process I described a few times already:
1. Put SC2 back in WOL state of the beginning. Remove all LOTV & HOTS units, upgrades, removed upgrades, etc. (e.g. 3 range roaches.)
2. Then remove marine shields and the whole marauder and balance terran as well as the other races roughly around that. (that can include switching place of roaches and hydras and putting ravager and lurker then on top of either of these units (I suggest lurker nerf but lurker on top of the unit that is tier 1 then), rough balance is enough as many things can and will be added for nuances later, it will e.g. include nerf of banelings so that it makes sense to mix a few of them into armies but that they are not main component like now, I expect about 50% of the damage that they got now, etc.)
3. Potentially re-integrate marauders and marine shields in a way where they are an option but not a must have. That can take place in later stages of the game. I suggested marauders as a tier 3 unit that requires an academy as one possible solution.
4. Add step by step HOTS and LOTV units back to the game into niche roles or roles that must be filled still. Continue the balancing process. I suggest to keep out or drastically change units like the oracle, msc, host, liberator.
5. Done. SC2 will be fun to play now.
Explanations:
i)
The medivac mechanics:
- the extended hitpoints for biological units during fights. Scales with the amount of total hitpoints a unit has. Can be canceled almost completely with focus fire on single bio units. Comes down to dmg/sec on a unit in combination with max hitpoints and the healing rate.
- the free units after fights. Scales heavily with hitpoints of biological units. Healing up damaged marines to 40hp is not a problem at all. Healing up 10hp marauders to 125hp is a problem.
- the mobility combined with the two mechanics above. Mobility is not a problem at all, boost is not too. Dropping 4 helions or 2 tanks is not an issue. The issue is being created solely in combination with the two mechanics above:
a) dropped units that get extended hitpoints during fights (scales with max hp).
b) dropped units that can be loaded in and taken out and then being healed up to full hp (free units, scales with max hp).
ii)
Macro mechanics serve gameplay issues and do not initially exist. They can be changed and adapted within seconds to serve new gameplays/metagames. They come in in the end to micro-balance overall racial issues. As someone stated the mule to serve current bio heavy play. The larva inject to allow zerg to drone and build fighting units from the same building. They cannot be held responsible as a source for problems. As blizzard recognized that they reverted them almost back to HOTS level. The underlyings are the issue to be solved, then these can be adapted.
iii)
Creating stringent increase of dynamics through the phases of the game. The current game is highly dynamical in the beginning and most things are being decided there as everything scales up from then. Bio is the reason for that.
- bio is standalone in the beginning but has to be complemented later on with units that take away those dynamics to a certain extend. It would be good to give terran that standalone bio that creates highly dynamical play in the lategame (marauder tier 3 unit).
- in general games get stuck in deathball vs. deathball scenarios after some time and positional play. When MSC & 10+ warpgates or mass queens, spores/spines and full laid out creep are in place little drops have minor relevance later on compared to earlier. That should be the other way round. Therefore the right choice is not to buff those mechanics that apply later on but to nerf the ones that make it overly useful at the start of a match (oracle, marauder).
iv)
Split up fights. Terran bio is overpowered in split up fights, which creates many of the issues which resulted in non-needed buffs to counter that which cause follow-up problems. With removal of marauder and the change in scale of the medivac mechanics shown above these issues get lesser.
v)
Concept of variance. High variances are main reasons for frustration with SC2. Bio is the source of that. How many connections do banelings get? How many connections on banelings do mines get? Do colossi get some lucky massive shots on the bio before they die or not? Does a 3/4 roach drop defense focus fire a 1 medivac bio drop instantly and before one roach dies or just a second too late so that sniping out and negating medivac mechanics is barely possible anymore? Can be endlessly continued and is almost all about bio. I don't want to play a game where a mine can either hit 10+ banelings or does almost nothing as it explodes on a single zergling or overlord. Variance affects all levels of play and hence we see many SC2 koreans switch back to broodwar and also almost never anyone to stay on top for a longer period of time (yes, MVP consistency was mainly due to racial balance, when balance got more in par his results became more variant). Not even boxer himself can prevent that the massive variance of sc2 overshadows many of his efforts to an extend, where it is just purely frustrating.
vi)
Micro vs. macro. Micro is the more valuable the less effective it is. Only then it can be countered and only then constancy of micro matters. Micro is not in a single fight to snipe all templars at the same time within a second, to feedback all ghosts within a second, to spam out max possible energy of a unit as fast as possible in fights. This is variance. Micro is to strategically and continuously deploy spells (when looking at spell use here) during the period of a fight. The periods should be extended not shortened with more and more op units/spells/mechanics. In broodwar a protoss had to hold back psi-storm against zerg so that he can wait and spot perfect moments of stacked units to deploy them. Using all in the beginning of a fight might have lead to instant lose. In SC2 it is best to initially spam out all psi storms before them get sniped or banelinged and in order to summon archons as fast as possible.
I repeat: the less impact micro has the more interesting it gets. The less impact micro has the more micro is necessary to be considered "good micro". The more impact excellent players can have with micro. This is a concept blizzard hasn't understood after almost 7 years. Due to that micro usually is being seen as minor relevant compared to macro. You gotta only have to be in time at the few major fights that happen in a game instead of constantly using micro. Micro is negated by bio.
You cannot micro anything against bio that is less mobile than bio. Got roach/hydra and bio is superior? Better care on your macro meanwhiles and let it happen otherwise you get 100% rekt. When you macro instead of micro during that fight you at least got a 10-20% chance to stay in game after, same applies to protoss, hence MSC.
That has an overall detrimental impact on the attractiveness of SC2. 90% of fights are one-sided. Games get only interesting to watch (and play) in two out of three possible scenarios. 1. players trade almost equally and the game stays balanced. 2. Bio gets dominated but with shells, stim and medivac has the option to opt out. 3. Bio dominates and nothing of the opponent escapes. Some get shelled and can barely move anymore, a bit more far away get chased with stim and if anything is still left after that that tries to escape (e.g. roaches, hydras, immortals, etc.) you load in a bunch of bio into a medivac, boost behind and kill it as well. This is when games usually get uninteresting as this is not fair, it is unbalanced to the most possible degree.
That does not automatically translate into an overall racial imbalance. Why?
Because players adapt. Zergs just don't build roach/hydra but anything that is more mobile than bio and protoss just does not attack at all when unsure if victorious or not but stays back. The stuck games sitting on deathballs maneuvering positions for best possible positioning with alot of passivity in late games is born. As players adapt the issue about bio becomes less visible. The high level games we watch it might be the case that it is alright. It is for sure not.
Sry, wanted to write less. But one more to add.
vii)
Change can happen in environments that want and allow change. TL and the leading spokesmen did their best to create an environment which prevents that for years. Fun fact about that is the decline of SC2, which took place due to lack of required change directly affects the financial success of TL. So preventing that was neither good for SC2 nor for TL.
I have been mentioning it before but in concurrent times of one-dimensional coverage and press work/fight this cannot be emphasized enough. Everybody could have seen the endless articles and news about how great flash was/is, about how great mvp was, about best players of all time which majorly was terran favored, about 30+ pages (which I luckily never read, as meaningless) about how up terran is from a guy that had nothing else in mind than to create an pleasurable environment to play for himself, as a terran. Of course that condenses into discussions where good and reasonable opinions get muzzled and people get banned for stating opinions. As this is about terran bio mainly, terrans are going to be not happy about what I write, I understand.
But system of checks and balances is not a pyramid where pro-players and casters can know and decide everything. Compare it with business. Why do all kinds of businesses benefit from external consultancy? Cause people who operate the business for years get blind for things external people might spot. The stock markets and analysts evaluate businesses not the operators themselves. You can see me as an analyst. After 20 years in (WC2, 28.8k) and without having any ambitions to be or become a pro-player I have enough distance to bring some rather neutral analysis to what is the problem of SC2. Played protoss 98' to 2005, Terran + random 2005-2010, zerg 2010+. People who operate it every day may easily get stuck in thinking patterns that are narrow without it being the fault of them in person. It happens to everyone.
Allow change to happen, make it fucking great (not again but for once). Complete another redesign in one year from now. If you get all that right what I described SC2 can become a fun and challenging game and successful esports for another decade to come. If not stay stuck. Take it or leave it.
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I cannot comprehend how anyone can look at the current state of the game and through out starcraft 2 history and say "yeah, the core problem is bio".
It really makes me understand why it is hard for blizzard to take any feedback..
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A small hydra health boost would make a huge difference in late game, esp vs. carriers, and a little vs. mech. I'd say, both of which would be amazing (though, I get that mech is struggling).
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On January 27 2017 18:25 JoFar wrote:
Terran is just bad designed (not only at the moment, but for years). Each race should have an advantage going for tier 3 Tech units. Zerg has and needs BL, Ultras or Vipers in a lot of late game szenarios. Protoss has and needs Colossi, HT, Carrier and even the hugely nerfed Tempest in a lot of late game szenarios.
Terran has ghosts, thors and BC (okay, maybe raven too, hard to say if it's more T2 or T3). But besides ghosts your nearly never need Thors or BCs. Not because they are too week ... they are just not needed, cause bio compositions, esp. with wm/lib and as i mentioned maybe ghosts can deal very decent with most of the other races late game compositions ...
THERE should the changes be setted.
This is a great point. So many zergs die right when trying to switch into t3 tech, while the terran really just needs to add more vikings/raven, if BL, or more marauders and more drops, if ultras. It's a very modest tech switch for T.
I also agree with the other post that mentions mobile healing + bio as a core issue... perhaps medivacs could cost even +1 more supply, to limit the cost efficiency of a 200/200 army later?
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-please delete-
double post
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On January 28 2017 00:36 Gullis wrote:
I cannot comprehend how anyone can look at the current state of the game and through out starcraft 2 history and say "yeah, the core problem is bio".
It really makes me understand why it is hard for blizzard to take any feedback..
You do not because your main concern probably is to have a perfectly balanced pro-level SC2, not an SC2 with fun and strategical mechanics and interactions.
Also when you play terran yourself of course your problem is not bio but what is built around and against it. You fail to see the connection and lack the vision.
http://www.rankedftw.com/player/519255/
Terran player.
Nuff said.
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I agree with you that the insane dps density of bio play is a problem, but it's not only bio tbh, it's a lot of ranged armies in general. I think another pathing system alone would already drastically change this (so you cannot move your whole army in a way where it's still able to attack at 100% efficiency instantly)
Medivac also shouldn't be in the game the way it is, i would rather have a split to dropships and medics again tbh. That way you have a decision (do i want to drop?, we can nerf mobility + photon overcharge and other stuff simply because terrans won't drop you all game 24/7) and you need to build bio units which don't attack = less marines + less dps density.
I think these two changes alone already improve the interactions a lot, other than that you would need to test it.
I like your paragraph about micro though, you are right. Micro should be about doing a lot of little thing repeatedly which give you an advantage and not "burst micro" which results immediately into a huge advantage. (obviously you cannot remove this entirely, but lessen it at least)
Also a thing to consider is the general pacing of the game (the lower the army count the better the interactions). Imo the only reasonable solution is to get the economy/macro mechanics/pacing right first and balance everything around that
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On January 28 2017 01:02 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:36 Gullis wrote:
I cannot comprehend how anyone can look at the current state of the game and through out starcraft 2 history and say "yeah, the core problem is bio".
It really makes me understand why it is hard for blizzard to take any feedback..
You do not because your main concern probably is to have a perfectly balanced pro-level SC2, not an SC2 with fun and strategical mechanics and interactions. Also when you play terran yourself of course your problem is not bio but what is built around and against it. You fail to see the connection and lack the vision. http://www.rankedftw.com/player/519255/Terran player. Nuff said.
Pathetic. He has no valid point because of the race he plays?
The balancing of this game is beyond most people, including yourself, which is why we have a balance team. Everybody has a viewpoint that should be considered, even those in the lower divisions, as it is the breadth of playerbase that will make SC2 survive.
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EPT
