Community Feedback Update - January 23 - Page 8

There are overarching goals like balance and improving gameplay which have to be addressed without bias. So, this is where game designers/Dev team should come in.

I think the community overall—and in this sense a democratic process—decides on the first point. After all this game is supposed to be fun for the majority of players.

On January 25 2017 22:34 Foxxan wrote:

Yes but thats just one thing for them, the other one is to analyse WHAT IS FUN, WHAT IS NOT FUN, WHY IS THIS NOT FUN.

On January 25 2017 02:56 LSN wrote:
I agree with that Dino. The question is what is the source of unfun unit interactions. The direct source and the sources of sources. Blizzard seems to not understand this concept at all yet so let me go into detail.

The direct source of this unfun element you described is that protoss got the adapt, which now allows protoss to pay without relying on heavy splash only. Terran therefore requires these unfun elements of mines and liberators to be strong to become competitive. But lets have look what took place before. Protoss gameplay solely relied on how much splash you could stack on your army and deathball with colossi and then HT. It wasn't good at all. Fights were about colossi vs. bio and vikings vs. colossi. Also what kind of game balance is that where people figure out that throwing workers against the enemy in a single fight is their best option always at a certain stage of the game and is inescapeable if not already ahead? That shows best what I mean with narrow options, almost no wiggle room and room to breath.

The source of the adept is terran bio and how much it is overpowered. The adept just moved the issues away from colossi gameplay and hence bio cannot be detected as a part of the problem as well. But the problem of bio remains and gets visible in low supply situations or whenever games get crazy after huge fights still.

Bio mobility:
- 20 supply of bio will always kill your 10 supply of units without any losses at all and with no escape for your units.
- Your 20 supply of units will never kill any supply of 10 supply bio as you cannot catch them. You probably even lose a few units to micro before bio either stims away or loads in and flies away.

Bio split up ability:
- A few supply of bio being dropped behind enforces you to put more effort of units to fend it off efficiently.
- Dropping a few supply behind a bio terran will always fall to fewer efforts of bio supply.
Hence we got pylon cannon, warp back, also queen buffs, talk about static defence buffs, warp prism pick up range, etc.

Bio Power:
- Bio unites the most possible dps per square of basic units.

Bio concept of free units:
- A red bio unit after a fight is a bio unit that took no damage at all. It pretty much works as muta and reaper regeneration and is very similar to the concept of free units like those of swarmhosts or broodlords. Just by average out of any fight many bio units remain in a damaged but not dead status. These immediately become units of full value and full power again due to heal. Heal during fights can be counted as hitpoint enlargement and is not really the issue imo.

Bio accessibility:
- Mostly tier one and gasless.


All these features require hard anti mechanics such as the colossus, the adept, the baneling, etc. With the implementation of these the heavy damage gameplay was born. These strong anti measures require a strong reaction of terran again for cases where bio just gets shut down and overrun otherwise with the new tools the other kids got. The vicious circle has been implemented in which we remain now. Resuls of this vicious circle are op unit and mechanic implementation which are frustrating not only for players against bio but everyone. While terrans don't see a problem with bio now they see it too. Implementations or thoughts about implementing mass armor ultralisks, mass range hydralisks, free units for cheap, more and more op spells, prism load in range, removal of upgrades or making them hell cheap all can be counted to that in addition to some of the op units mentioned above.

All this results into only few best compositions, skipping of midgames, not wasting time with tech switches but build the optimal composition from the start on such as terran is doing it and finally unrewarding gameplay as narrow as hell and without options.

Bio is so to speak the all in one composition that should only become available very late if at all. Technically blizzard could have taken away and still could take away from bio in order to then take away from bio counters and again then take away from counters to bio counters (such as mines or liberators), which would result in more breathing room, wiggling room and less narrow pathes for payers to go. That would result in rewarding gameplay as whole games would not stand or fall about if one type of counter was there in large enough amounts at the very right time or not. But they are captives in the state of mind that it is best to only scratch surfaces instead of going for the original issue. People can wonder for eternity why SC2 is no fun, this is the reason. They can wonder eternaly why mech isn't viable and why the overall game balance (includes e.g. the inner racial balance of units) is that fragile, the reason is the very same. Mech just cannot ever reach what bio provides the player with in any way. Therefore either you overpower it too (just as many of the named things) or it will just stay less desirable. There wont ever be the desired middle ground possible.

I don't play SC2 anymore too and don't want to contribute to current small scale balance adjustments as in my opinion those all happen within this vicious circle. Every fixed problem will create 1-2 new problems. It is without any sense and it wont ever reach a state where SC2 could be fun for me again. There is little hope that they end up having buffed everything other than bio at one point, which is the same as nerfing bio. But thats unlikely as stuff like muta regeneration, pylon cannon and many more things will remain implemented which I consider obsolete in a perfect world. So in order to reach that perfect world such things had to be removed and the game had to be balanced around metagames where these things (only named two out of many mechanics) do not exist. As they exist it will hardly be possible to reach any good state of SC2 when basing decisions on their existence.

Hence I say SC2 is doomed. They gonna try and do many changes which continue to scratch surfaces. They wanna leave good impressions with their customers and playerbase and continue to come up with stuff. The lifespan will be artificially enlarged more, the bubble that now bursted in korea will be replaced with a much smaller one. They gonna say in the end that they tried everything in order to make SC2 a fun game. It will fail. I have almost noone left in my wider circle of friends and online friends who gets any fun out of SC2 and is admiring to play it. Those few who still do run behind self put goals like reaching certain level and put belief into the esports bubble. But lets be honest guys, SC2 in its current state would not be an esports at all if blizzard didn't feed the bubble with money all over the place. Now I don't say give that all up, everyone does feed its bubble to a certain degree. It can and will work for plenty of more time if Blizzard is willing to hold it up. But I would rather see SC2 being kept alive like broodwar is, a desireable game to play and to master which by itself awakes interest of esport competitions and competitors. This cannot be achieved in any other way than making SC2 a fun game to play, with rewarding gameplay, with a more wide set of options for players, with less frustrating mechanics and interactions, which it now imo and in the opinion of many many other people defenitely is not. And that pretty much is not dependent on if liberators have 10 more damage or not, just like you expressed it in a perfect manner.

Getting air attack upgrades will be more important now but at least liberators aren't as broken as before!

On January 27 2017 06:59 Gullis wrote:
It is pretty dumb to talk about bio being to strong without even mentioning the production mechanics of the other races,
Bio had to be "to strong" because of warp gates( which is cancerous as fuck) and to a lesser degree injects.
Even with bio being so strong we still have had times when terran got straight up owned by gateway units because of warp gate.

In the end I think it is pretty redundant to discuss if it is "op bio" that forces "op splash" or "op warp gate/inject" that forces "op bio", because it is all part of "terrible terrible damage", the economy and the hard counter system which I think is the real causes of the frustration with this game.

On January 27 2017 07:12 starkiller123 wrote:
I really enjoy Legacy, much better than hots or wol

On January 27 2017 06:59 Gullis wrote:
It is pretty dumb to talk about bio being to strong without even mentioning the production mechanics of the other races,
Bio had to be "to strong" because of warp gates( which is cancerous as fuck) and to a lesser degree injects.
Even with bio being so strong we still have had times when terran got straight up owned by gateway units because of warp gate.

In the end I think it is pretty redundant to discuss if it is "op bio" that forces "op splash" or "op warp gate/inject" that forces "op bio", because it is all part of "terrible terrible damage", the economy and the hard counter system which I think is the real causes of the frustration with this game.

On January 27 2017 07:23 DinoMight wrote:


Medivac boost has nothing to do with the Warpgate mechanic, IMO.

Game was perfectly fine without it.

On January 27 2017 06:59 Gullis wrote:
In the end I think it is pretty redundant to discuss if it is "op bio" that forces "op splash" or "op warp gate/inject" that forces "op bio", because it is all part of "terrible terrible damage", the economy and the hard counter system which I think is the real causes of the frustration with this game.

On January 27 2017 07:23 DinoMight wrote:


Medivac boost has nothing to do with the Warpgate mechanic, IMO.

Game was perfectly fine without it.

Liberator Concord Cannon damage changed from 85 to 75

On January 25 2017 23:33 Comedy wrote:


theyve showed time and time again they dont care about players having fun theyre more focussed on whats 'cool to watch.'

Even if they would consider fun they almost always only consider it from one side - they spend very little time worrying about fun counterplay.

For example : Reapers with grenades! That sounds like a lot of fun! Woah this is cool I can make stuff jump everywhere

Counterplay : Slams head against wall.

Another example : Wow I can use circles to zone out my opponents and harass mineral lines!

Counterplay : my stalkers or queens can barely reach there wtf I better uninstall the game.

List goes on and on

On January 27 2017 08:04 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:


If I remember well drop play was dead at the end of WOL because medivacs were too slow. Players had gotten so good at deflecting them that they were obsolete.

On January 27 2017 08:30 DeadByDawn wrote:

Indeed. There were many easy ways to counter the drop, and the loss of the units and medivac was game ending.

Then we got boost, which is a powerful but not OP mechanism (given the defensive abilities of the races). Boost in to get some quick damage, or boost out to save units, or even abort the drop and boost away if there is more defense than you bargained for.