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On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here.
Not exactly.
Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion.
My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really.
Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these.
I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else.
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On January 25 2017 03:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:13 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 03:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. In what way is it "hard" ? If you play in bronze/silver league it's not hard at all. The enemy isn't good. The chance of dying to a widow mine drop there is close to zero because the opponent probably forgets his medivac over your mineral line for 5 minutes to begin with. Why exactly it's not fun? That's the actual problem here. Yeah but you aren't good either otherwise you wouldn't be bronze, so you still have a hard time dealing with that mine drop cause youre as slow as your opponent If in master vs master games are hard, why would they not be in bronze vs bronze? sc2 was hard when i used to be bronze, silver, gold, platin, diamond and master, it's never been an easy game in 1v1 come on... As for what is fun or not like i said, regardless of what blizzard does people will always complain. Can the game still get better though? For sure! Does it look like anyone has the answer? Not really Well yeah but that's the point. Both players are rather bad, there is no need to play "well" (and thus fast, lots of multitasking, lots of stress). When i was in bronze/silver you could simply macro a bit and pretty much every game got to huge armies a moving into each other because no player was actually good enough to abuse anything. How many games did i simply build mass bcs/carrier in a low league game and attack at the 20-30 minute mark? The game isn't hard per se, it absolutely depends on yourself. With that being said, i think if you get a bit better and realize that there are abusive things which can end the game rather fast, that's the point where real frustration arises for a lot of players because it oftentimes is way easier to execute that abusive strategy/tactic than it is to defend it. That's one thing blizzard should be aware of i think.
Bronze require less mechanics but you also posesss less mechanics, so at the end of the day it takes almost as much effort to play than at any other level as soon as you try to rank up. If people were satisfied by sc2 for fun they would play unranked.
And yeah some strategies are easier to execute than defend right now, but what about wol colossi era? Or swarm hosts? Was that better? Not from my point of view. At least now it requires skill.
People who think blizzard will do everything that is asked of them should switch game, but they either don't and complain all day, or end up coming back because it's the same problem in other multiplayer games.
For me it was csgo and sure it does a lot of stuff better than sc2, but also a ton of stuff worse.
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On January 25 2017 03:30 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. Not exactly. Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion. My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really. Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these. I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else.
Yeah but on the other hands theres people like me who actually loved most of the changes brought in lotv. And maybe they'll change the game again to a point where i dislike it again, while other people won't.
This kind of argument is irrelevant as long as it's not from the majority.
Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out, so while it is far from perfect, there will always be people that prefer one version of the game than another.
Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions.
In the end some players came back, some left, game viewership has been going down before lotv anyway, you just can't please everyone.
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"Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out"
that's a pretty generalized statement which I'm not sure is true.
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On January 25 2017 03:48 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:30 egrimm wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. Not exactly. Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion. My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really. Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these. I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else. Yeah but on the other hands theres people like me who actually loved most of the changes brought in lotv. And maybe they'll change the game again to a point where i dislike it again, while other people won't. This kind of argument is irrelevant as long as it's not from the majority. Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out, so while it is far from perfect, there will always be people that prefer one version of the game than another. Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions. In the end some players came back, some left, game viewership has been going down before lotv anyway, you just can't please everyone.
You create a false dichotomy here though. The game could include both, armies which don't just a move into another AND less frustrating harassment options. It's not one or the other.
You can argue that the harassment options right now are perfect as it is, but i would like to hear actual arguments which support this. Why is it "fun" / ok to have things like widow mine drops/baneling drops which can easily end the game right there. The impact is too big. (what you could exactly change to make it less impactful is another question)
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The unfun elements were not brought with the last expansion. Just the hope for any help got all lost by a wide range of players after the last expansion did not bring any change but instead even sharpened unfun unit interaction such as with the introduction of the liberator.
The big hope and great trust people put into blizzard that SC2 will finally become the game that they want it to be with LOTV is another bubble or part of the big bubble that bursted within the following year.
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On January 25 2017 04:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:48 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 03:30 egrimm wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. Not exactly. Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion. My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really. Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these. I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else. Yeah but on the other hands theres people like me who actually loved most of the changes brought in lotv. And maybe they'll change the game again to a point where i dislike it again, while other people won't. This kind of argument is irrelevant as long as it's not from the majority. Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out, so while it is far from perfect, there will always be people that prefer one version of the game than another. Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions. In the end some players came back, some left, game viewership has been going down before lotv anyway, you just can't please everyone. You create a false dichotomy here though. The game could include both, armies which don't just a move into another AND less frustrating harassment options. It's not one or the other. You can argue that the harassment options right now are perfect as it is, but i would like to hear actual arguments which support this. Why is it "fun" / ok to have things like widow mine drops/baneling drops which can easily end the game right there. The impact is too big. (what you could exactly change to make it less impactful is another question)
when did i say we couldn't get both at the same time? I even mentionned that i agreed harassment was too strong right now...
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On January 25 2017 04:02 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 04:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 03:48 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 03:30 egrimm wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. Not exactly. Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion. My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really. Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these. I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else. Yeah but on the other hands theres people like me who actually loved most of the changes brought in lotv. And maybe they'll change the game again to a point where i dislike it again, while other people won't. This kind of argument is irrelevant as long as it's not from the majority. Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out, so while it is far from perfect, there will always be people that prefer one version of the game than another. Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions. In the end some players came back, some left, game viewership has been going down before lotv anyway, you just can't please everyone. You create a false dichotomy here though. The game could include both, armies which don't just a move into another AND less frustrating harassment options. It's not one or the other. You can argue that the harassment options right now are perfect as it is, but i would like to hear actual arguments which support this. Why is it "fun" / ok to have things like widow mine drops/baneling drops which can easily end the game right there. The impact is too big. (what you could exactly change to make it less impactful is another question) when did i say we couldn't get both at the same time? I even mentionned that i agreed harassment was too strong right now...
Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions
This imo reads like harassment as it is now is the only way to make deathballs go away. If that wasn't your intent then i apologize 
So if you agree with that then we have a common ground to discuss i guess. As i keep mentioning, just because the end product is the best alternative right now doesn't mean that there isn't much to improve upon.
I think trying to understand WHY some things feel punishing/unfun and how to potentially change that is more interesting than pretending everything is fine just because nobody else does it better atm. (shoutout to JimmyJRaynor at this point!)
People don't like to talk about the actual game though it seems like (or rather nobody likes to talk about cause and effect)
Which is a shame because the more people actually tried to do this, the more insightful it would be probably.
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If harrassment was the only problem SC2 had, we would look into a bright future. The problem of SC2 is deeper.
In fact the issue is that whenever an SC2 game gets into a rather little unequal state between two players, the effect this has is too huge and scales too much - no matter if this is being induced through harassment or anything else.
Hence: Harassment would be in a pretty fine state if in general little advantages would not scale as much as they do and could e.g. be made up for with creative and unorthodox ways to play. And you can nerf harassment as much as you want as if you do not remove it altogether even nerfed forms of harassment damage would scale higher than they should. Nothing would be fixed.
It really hurts watching the discussion being that much off point. Exactly that kind of feedback that harassment is too strong leads nowhere without understanding the whole thing.
But anyways guys I am gonna leave it to you again. You gonna figure it out some day.
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On January 25 2017 04:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 04:02 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 04:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 03:48 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 03:30 egrimm wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units.
This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. Not exactly. Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion. My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really. Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these. I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else. Yeah but on the other hands theres people like me who actually loved most of the changes brought in lotv. And maybe they'll change the game again to a point where i dislike it again, while other people won't. This kind of argument is irrelevant as long as it's not from the majority. Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out, so while it is far from perfect, there will always be people that prefer one version of the game than another. Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions. In the end some players came back, some left, game viewership has been going down before lotv anyway, you just can't please everyone. You create a false dichotomy here though. The game could include both, armies which don't just a move into another AND less frustrating harassment options. It's not one or the other. You can argue that the harassment options right now are perfect as it is, but i would like to hear actual arguments which support this. Why is it "fun" / ok to have things like widow mine drops/baneling drops which can easily end the game right there. The impact is too big. (what you could exactly change to make it less impactful is another question) when did i say we couldn't get both at the same time? I even mentionned that i agreed harassment was too strong right now... Show nested quote +Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions This imo reads like harassment as it is now is the only way to make deathballs go away. If that wasn't your intent then i apologize So if you agree with that then we have a common ground to discuss i guess. As i keep mentioning, just because the end product is the best alternative right now doesn't mean that there isn't much to improve upon. I think trying to understand WHY some things feel punishing/unfun and how to potentially change that is more interesting than pretending everything is fine just because nobody else does it better atm. (shoutout to JimmyJRaynor at this point!) People don't like to talk about the actual game though it seems like (or rather nobody likes to talk about cause and effect) Which is a shame because the more people actually tried to do this, the more insightful it would be probably.
Yeah i was just saying this is an issue players have with lotv, and this is what people hated about hots/wol.
Problem is i can't speak for myself as i have the most fun in this version of sc2, and playing random makes it harder to get bored.
Thing is people who liked deathballs obviously don't appreciate the games direction, and i don't want them to have their fun back :p
Now for the main reasons as to why people would find the game unfun? Honestly i don't know of any that could be solved while making everyone happy. I just think no matter what we do theres always gonna be this guy who wants to mech it happen and curses blizz every day
Can you even balance at a pro level while maintaining a fun 1v1 environment? Seems like coop was made for casuals, and overwatch for haters.
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On January 25 2017 04:15 LSN wrote:
If harrassment was the only problem SC2 had, we would look into a bright future. The problem of SC2 is deeper.
In fact the issue is that whenever an SC2 game gets into a rather little unequal state between two players, the effect this has is too huge and scales too much - no matter if this is being induced through harassment or anything else.
Hence: Harassment would be in a pretty fine state if in general little advantages would not scale as much as they do and could e.g. be made up for with creative and unorthodox ways to play. And you can nerf harassment as much as you want as if you do not remove it altogether even nerfed forms of harassment damage would scale higher than they should. Nothing would be fixed.
It really hurts watching the discussion being that much off point. Exactly that kind of feedback that harassment is too strong leads nowhere without understanding the whole thing.
But anyways guys I am gonna leave it to you again. You gonna figure it out some day.
Well nobody said "harassment" is as deep as it gets. A lot of it is due to the general pacing of the game (how fast you can get to certain supply counts, basically skipping states the game could need, economy working in a way efficiency is probably more important than it should be, etc)
That doesn't mean you cannot talk about an "easier" to spot thing though. Anybody can see that killing workers is probably too impactful right now, why not talk about something like that first?
And no, you aren't the one who has all the solutions. I am not either. Lalush wasn't either. The teamliqud team who proposed another economy system wasn't either. But that's exactly why discussing these things is so important.
On January 25 2017 04:19 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 04:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 04:02 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 04:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 03:48 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 03:30 egrimm wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way.
I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against.
You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play.
Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game.
If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now.
The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. Not exactly. Me and my group were playing a lot of WoL and HotS. It was a lot of fun especially offline in someone's house. However since LotV release our motivation to meet and play has gradually vanished. Not because game became "too hard". Because of a lot of unfun elements brought with the expansion. My terran friends hate using liberators but in PvT it is crucial unit and it is almost impossible to play without. So they use it but doesn't feel fun really. Same can be said about other changes: Adepts shades, turtle mass air, invincible nyduses and ultralisks, everchanging cyclons and SH because there is no clear intention in mind regarding their role, 8 range queens yada yada yada we all know these. I know, it is just my opinion but I feel like many people became disappointed with the game after all this changes, myself included. Some bitches and moans about that some are waiting for better tommorow and some just gave up and moved somewhere else. Yeah but on the other hands theres people like me who actually loved most of the changes brought in lotv. And maybe they'll change the game again to a point where i dislike it again, while other people won't. This kind of argument is irrelevant as long as it's not from the majority. Case in point : most players including pros agreed that lotv was the best expansions when it came out, so while it is far from perfect, there will always be people that prefer one version of the game than another. Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions. In the end some players came back, some left, game viewership has been going down before lotv anyway, you just can't please everyone. You create a false dichotomy here though. The game could include both, armies which don't just a move into another AND less frustrating harassment options. It's not one or the other. You can argue that the harassment options right now are perfect as it is, but i would like to hear actual arguments which support this. Why is it "fun" / ok to have things like widow mine drops/baneling drops which can easily end the game right there. The impact is too big. (what you could exactly change to make it less impactful is another question) when did i say we couldn't get both at the same time? I even mentionned that i agreed harassment was too strong right now... Game isn't fun because of harassment options? Well game was terrible because of amove deathball and boring early game in previous expansions This imo reads like harassment as it is now is the only way to make deathballs go away. If that wasn't your intent then i apologize So if you agree with that then we have a common ground to discuss i guess. As i keep mentioning, just because the end product is the best alternative right now doesn't mean that there isn't much to improve upon. I think trying to understand WHY some things feel punishing/unfun and how to potentially change that is more interesting than pretending everything is fine just because nobody else does it better atm. (shoutout to JimmyJRaynor at this point!) People don't like to talk about the actual game though it seems like (or rather nobody likes to talk about cause and effect) Which is a shame because the more people actually tried to do this, the more insightful it would be probably. Yeah i was just saying this is an issue players have with lotv, and this is what people hated about hots/wol. Problem is i can't speak for myself as i have the most fun in this version of sc2, and playing random makes it harder to get bored. Thing is people who liked deathballs obviously don't appreciate the games direction, and i don't want them to have their fun back :p Now for the main reasons as to why people would find the game unfun? Honestly i don't know of any that could be solved while making everyone happy. I just think no matter what we do theres always gonna be this guy who wants to mech it happen and curses blizz every day Can you even balance at a pro level while maintaining a fun 1v1 environment? Seems like coop was made for casuals, and overwatch for haters.
Well i am sure there are people who like deathballs (we need to define that though, big armies clashing doesn't mean it's two deathballs imo, i think "deathball" implies that one army wins almost all the time without losing much, or an army which doesn't allow for interesting unit interactions because it's too oppressive)
At the end of the day we should have a solid design philosophy and try to work towards that though. I think some reasonable things are: Comeback potential, strategical/tactical diversity, promoting multitasking, defenders advantage, "fun" unit interactions on every supply level, etc
Whatever the solutions are to get there, some will interfere with one or more of the goals we have. At that point it's down to priority and subjectivity. We still should try to argue the pros and cons case by case though, try to understand cause and effect and therefore increase our understanding of "game design" even if it is only on an amateur lvl here on TL. It's simply interesting. A lot of great games (counterstrike for example :D) came to be because of community involvement (i am sure dota as well). Why i say this? Well this "hey blizzard/David Kim are the professionals here and you are simply a random poster" is no good argument. (not saying you do this btw).
I keep repeating myself week for week though, at the end of the day people rather rant about balance numbers or tell me to play another game (which completely misses the point) or tell me how great ATVI is at earning money (another shoutout to JimmyJRaynor! :>)
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Ye you name it, I can't disagree with any of that. But putting your right math about harassment on the underlying math which is already wrong wont do any good in grand scheme of things but just bury the source issues deeper and deeper, believe me.
Nevertheless this is what I analysed to have happened in the past and to continue to happen in the future anyway and I for sure do not want to be the one to hold you back with that. ^^
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On January 25 2017 04:36 LSN wrote:
Ye you name it, I can't disagree with any of that. But putting your right math about harassment on the underlying math which is already wrong wont do any good in grand scheme of things but just bury the source issues deeper and deeper, believe me.
Nevertheless this is what I analysed to have happened in the past and to continue to happen in the future anyway and I for sure do not want to be the one to hold you back with that. ^^
I simply want more community involvement in discussing potential design issues. Nobody has all the answers, (rts) games are incredibly complex and changing one thing here oftentimes can lead to results you simply couldn't see coming (on your own).
I feel there needs to be a strong foundation of design goals and based on that we can argue what's the best way to get exactly there.
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I don't believe in the democratic process here. It wont legitimate one all good solution at the end of the day but just clutters up stuff and makes smallest common denominator solutions likely to happen, as anything else cannot get the confirmation of the majority.
Still discussing is good.
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Oh i am not saying the majority opinion is right,it boils down to discussion and looking at a variety of different arguments/solutions.
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On January 25 2017 03:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. In what way is it "hard" ? If you play in bronze/silver league it's not hard at all. The enemy isn't good. The chance of dying to a widow mine drop there is close to zero because the opponent probably forgets his medivac over your mineral line for 5 minutes to begin with. Why exactly it's not fun? That's the actual problem here. Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:04 reneg wrote:On January 25 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful) I think that's because bliz has made a conscious effort to make the game largely worker harass first, then main army fighting second. I mean think about it, a lot of the key moments from WoL were brought about by worker harass or attacks that involved them. Casters and audiences got hyped across the board when experiencing that level of attack - because it was the easiest signal to read: If you just killed a dozen drones, you are now ahead. It became one of the key things to guard & protect (since SC is largely a resource gathering & spending game, and only at the higher levels does unit comp really matter a lot more). bliz recognized that was wildly detrimental to newer players playing, and so they said to themselves, let's implement a few things that are really good at STOPPING that harass. (Widow Mine to defend against oracles/muta, and the liberator to defend against muta). The only issue is that the widow mine used offensively as a drop into a mineral line is absolutely devastating, and i believe an unexpected consequence, and liberators seemed to be TOO good against air. So they nerfed the AA aspect of the liberator (while still allowing it to maintain its role as ground specialist (??), and therefore massacre workers. I feel like at this point, they decided 'forget this' and just went full tilt into worker harass is the key component of the game, which is why they don't have issues with widow mine decimating worker counts, or liberators being able to stop entire bases from mining Hm yeah but the problem is that it just feels too punishing a lot of the time. That is the stuff that is actually not fun for players just below the highest leagues (and even there it might be unfun tbh) Worker harass is fine, but why does it have to be that potent? Why not design it in a way where small advantages add up over time? It's about comeback potential basically, if you lose a big chunk of your workers because of a single drop then you are screwed. Every decision you made before is basically irrelevant and you don't have a lot of options anymore either. It would be way better if you could only get to that poitn if the enemy harasses you multiple times throughout the game with stuff you can defend reasonably well. A lot of intreractions to show who is the better player, not one. (ofc there will always be strats which are about this one abusive tactic, but i feel blizzard promotes it)
Or perhaps we've been reading it the wrong way. Maybe that's why these harassment options are so absolutely devastating: To allow someone who is significantly behind in worker count / army size / whatever to be able to slip in, and destroy a half dozen workers at a time?
And I'm agreeing that there definitely are issues with the lack of any comeback mechanics, and I personally feel like part of that issue is that the damage rates on everything are so incredibly high.
You spend the first few minutes of each game building an army, positioning it vs. your opponent, and in most of your matches, the first fight is really all you get. One side mops the floor with the other, and from then on is in a very comfortable position.
There will be little things that will drag it out: if the winner doesn't push his advantage, if the loser turtles up with defensive units in place, etc., but each of the fights are over with such lightning speed, that if you happen to be looking away and not notice the fight happening off screen, you're already done for.
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hope to see less liberators and more tanks!
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Give me a PM when avilo posts. I'm curious to see what he thinks about the new Liberators
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trololo. foreginer nerchio rapes koreans terrans, stil cries for terran nerf.
man..
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On January 25 2017 05:01 LSN wrote:
I don't believe in the democratic process here. It wont legitimate one all good solution at the end of the day but just clutters up stuff and makes smallest common denominator solutions likely to happen, as anything else cannot get the confirmation of the majority.
Still discussing is good.
On January 25 2017 05:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Oh i am not saying the majority opinion is right,it boils down to discussion and looking at a variety of different arguments/solutions.
There's three overall parts to this process
- identifying problems
- finding solutions
- implementing/testing solutions
I think the community overall—and in this sense a democratic process—decides on the first point. After all this game is supposed to be fun for the majority of players.
It's common sense though that finding the best solution cannot be handled the same way. Especially if a given solution implies a (necesary) nerf to a race. There are overarching goals like balance and improving gameplay which have to be addressed without bias. So, this is where game designers/Dev team should come in.
On January 25 2017 05:43 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. In what way is it "hard" ? If you play in bronze/silver league it's not hard at all. The enemy isn't good. The chance of dying to a widow mine drop there is close to zero because the opponent probably forgets his medivac over your mineral line for 5 minutes to begin with. Why exactly it's not fun? That's the actual problem here. On January 25 2017 03:04 reneg wrote:On January 25 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful) I think that's because bliz has made a conscious effort to make the game largely worker harass first, then main army fighting second. I mean think about it, a lot of the key moments from WoL were brought about by worker harass or attacks that involved them. Casters and audiences got hyped across the board when experiencing that level of attack - because it was the easiest signal to read: If you just killed a dozen drones, you are now ahead. It became one of the key things to guard & protect (since SC is largely a resource gathering & spending game, and only at the higher levels does unit comp really matter a lot more). bliz recognized that was wildly detrimental to newer players playing, and so they said to themselves, let's implement a few things that are really good at STOPPING that harass. (Widow Mine to defend against oracles/muta, and the liberator to defend against muta). The only issue is that the widow mine used offensively as a drop into a mineral line is absolutely devastating, and i believe an unexpected consequence, and liberators seemed to be TOO good against air. So they nerfed the AA aspect of the liberator (while still allowing it to maintain its role as ground specialist (??), and therefore massacre workers. I feel like at this point, they decided 'forget this' and just went full tilt into worker harass is the key component of the game, which is why they don't have issues with widow mine decimating worker counts, or liberators being able to stop entire bases from mining Hm yeah but the problem is that it just feels too punishing a lot of the time. That is the stuff that is actually not fun for players just below the highest leagues (and even there it might be unfun tbh) Worker harass is fine, but why does it have to be that potent? Why not design it in a way where small advantages add up over time? It's about comeback potential basically, if you lose a big chunk of your workers because of a single drop then you are screwed. Every decision you made before is basically irrelevant and you don't have a lot of options anymore either. It would be way better if you could only get to that poitn if the enemy harasses you multiple times throughout the game with stuff you can defend reasonably well. A lot of intreractions to show who is the better player, not one. (ofc there will always be strats which are about this one abusive tactic, but i feel blizzard promotes it) Or perhaps we've been reading it the wrong way. Maybe that's why these harassment options are so absolutely devastating: To allow someone who is significantly behind in worker count / army size / whatever to be able to slip in, and destroy a half dozen workers at a time?
Does it matter though? If you're behind in army significantly, it doesn't matter how many workers you kill. Your opponent will close out the game or kill your economy with his army advantage. So, if it is supposed to be a comeback mechanism, it's very soft and indirect. Any real comeback mechanism will directly help you catch up by delaying the game.
I agree with you that there is a significant lack of comeback mechanisms in SC2. Especially because terrain really doesn't play a big role. Imo army movement, positioning and gaining parts of the map (and everything leading up to that like army production and army composition) is what makes any RTS strategic. This aspect seems to be lost on SC2.
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