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On January 25 2017 02:15 InfCereal wrote:
Everything is easier to execute than defend. That's just common sense.
If you're executing something, you know what you're doing. If you're defending something, you usually don't know you're defending it until shortly before defending it.
I don't mean planning / strategy. I mean *number of clicks*. The technical difficulty of defending a Widow Mine drop vs. executing it. One is significantly higher than the other.
Consider as well the downsides. If your widow mine drop fails, you've lost a widow mine. If it succeeds you can easily wipe 5-10 probes instantly.
Supply depot block the Protoss expansion, go factory first into widow mine drops. Safe against almost all cheese and still more economical. Then have a chance to instantly wipe the Protoss' economy while you macro up. Sounds fair right? Almost all my games go like this. I don't care about the pros. This is not fun. I don't want to play this.
^^ This is how you kill eSports, and why CSGO has half a million people watching their tournament right now.
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On January 25 2017 02:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:15 InfCereal wrote:
Everything is easier to execute than defend. That's just common sense.
If you're executing something, you know what you're doing. If you're defending something, you usually don't know you're defending it until shortly before defending it. I don't mean planning / strategy. I mean *number of clicks*. The technical difficulty of defending a Widow Mine drop vs. executing it. One is significantly higher than the other. Consider as well the downsides. If your widow mine drop fails, you've lost a widow mine. If it succeeds you can easily wipe 5-10 probes instantly. Supply depot block the Protoss expansion, go factory first into widow mine drops. Safe against almost all cheese and still more economical. Then have a chance to instantly wipe the Protoss' economy while you macro up. Sounds fair right? Almost all my games go like this. I don't care about the pros. This is not fun. I don't want to play this. ^^ This is how you kill eSports, and why CSGO has half a million people watching their tournament right now.
funny because i switched to csgo shortly before hots came out, then came back for lotv because of how terrible the matchmaking experience is in csgo, and how much better lotv is than the previous expansions.
And csgo success has nothing to do with this, sc2 was gonna go down regardless, while cs basically went from actual dead game to number 1 thanks to skins and betting.
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I really don't think that's a valid complaint.
You can't whine because the game is hard - nothing's going to change that.
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On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game.
you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units.
This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were.
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On January 25 2017 02:33 InfCereal wrote:
I really don't think that's a valid complaint.
You can't whine because the game is hard - nothing's going to change that.
I think he is complaining about a tactic easy to execute with high reward in comparison to how hard it is to defend it reasonably well (aka come out at 50:50)
This is on a spectrum somewhere, "the game is hard" is not an argument.
Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful)
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On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were.
Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way.
I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against.
You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play.
Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game.
If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now.
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On January 25 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:33 InfCereal wrote:
I really don't think that's a valid complaint.
You can't whine because the game is hard - nothing's going to change that. I think he is complaining about a tactic easy to execute with high reward in comparison to how hard it is to defend it reasonably well (aka come out at 50:50) This is on a spectrum somewhere, "the game is hard" is not an argument. Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful)
This. Thank you.
Of course the game is hard, but I'm saying this part of the game is disproportionately hard for one player.
Other forms of worker harass can be game ending without proper planning, too. DTs, Oracles. Widow mines without detection. I get it.
But even if you make all the proper things you need to defend it, you still need to execute perfectly. Pull the workers quick enough. Have your obs in place. Etc.
If you know an Oracle is coming and you build a Turret - that's it. You'll lose 1-2 workers at most and you don't need to spend any of your APM worrying about the Oracle.
That's what I'm talking about.
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On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now.
The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was.
But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now.
Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay.
And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond
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On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now.
well when you say get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. that sounds a lot like whining.
but when just talking about widow mines I agree that it's a very frustrating units to lose to. however there are a lot of things like that in sc2; oracles/DTs can instantly win you the game if the opponent is not prepared, baneling drops work similar to wm drops in that you instantly lose 10-15 workers if you react slightly to late, it's not just terran/widowmines that work like this.
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On January 25 2017 02:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:33 InfCereal wrote:
I really don't think that's a valid complaint.
You can't whine because the game is hard - nothing's going to change that. I think he is complaining about a tactic easy to execute with high reward in comparison to how hard it is to defend it reasonably well (aka come out at 50:50) This is on a spectrum somewhere, "the game is hard" is not an argument. Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful) This. Thank you. Of course the game is hard, but I'm saying this part of the game is disproportionately hard for one player. Other forms of worker harass can be game ending without proper planning, too. DTs, Oracles. Widow mines without detection. I get it. But even if you make all the proper things you need to defend it, you still need to execute perfectly. Pull the workers quick enough. Have your obs in place. Etc. If you know an Oracle is coming and you build a Turret - that's it. You'll lose 1-2 workers at most and you don't need to spend any of your APM worrying about the Oracle. That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah so for your oracle example you assume the guy has defense, but when you talk about the mine you assume the toss has no overcharge, observers or stalkers? Fair comparison!
With proper pylon placement, unless i actually don't look at my mini map ever they either can't drop or have to lose the mines to pylons before they burrow.
Now i'm not arguing that mine drops is harder to execute or that harass isn't too strong in lotv, it's just that the reasons you stopped playing won't ever be solved in a game like sc2, unless we go back to amove deathball days.
As for playing offrace try to actually reach your toss MMR with terran in more than 25 games, you'll probably change your views on how easy it is to play
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widowmine drops are not new and were not that big of an issue. the introduction of liberators changed how you approach the overall matchup. which means your openings are weaker to widowmine drops and your counters are less punishing when it doesn't work (i.e. economy changes)
You need splash to deal with bio and your protoss options for splash send you down tech paths that cannot not deal with liberators effectively. Blink can get you by but it has a shelf life. You ultimately need sky units which are a huge investment. The window to get enough sky to deal with a handful of liberators is so big that most aggressive terrans easily exploit it. Terrans however already have the infrastructure to get liberators w/o any additional research or tech tree.
so you open sky and hope they don't open widowmine drops.. and if they do you hope your control is good enough to come out even. if you slip up once you instantly lose... i'm with dino here.. you're boxed into strategies which kills creativity and eliminates fun
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I agree with that Dino. The question is what is the source of unfun unit interactions. The direct source and the sources of sources. Blizzard seems to not understand this concept at all yet so let me go into detail.
The direct source of this unfun element you described is that protoss got the adapt, which now allows protoss to pay without relying on heavy splash only. Terran therefore requires these unfun elements of mines and liberators to be strong to become competitive. But lets have look what took place before. Protoss gameplay solely relied on how much splash you could stack on your army and deathball with colossi and then HT. It wasn't good at all. Fights were about colossi vs. bio and vikings vs. colossi. Also what kind of game balance is that where people figure out that throwing workers against the enemy in a single fight is their best option always at a certain stage of the game and is inescapeable if not already ahead? That shows best what I mean with narrow options, almost no wiggle room and room to breath.
The source of the adept is terran bio and how much it is overpowered. The adept just moved the issues away from colossi gameplay and hence bio cannot be detected as a part of the problem as well. But the problem of bio remains and gets visible in low supply situations or whenever games get crazy after huge fights still.
Bio mobility:
- 20 supply of bio will always kill your 10 supply of units without any losses at all and with no escape for your units.
- Your 20 supply of units will never kill any supply of 10 supply bio as you cannot catch them. You probably even lose a few units to micro before bio either stims away or loads in and flies away.
Bio split up ability:
- A few supply of bio being dropped behind enforces you to put more effort of units to fend it off efficiently.
- Dropping a few supply behind a bio terran will always fall to fewer efforts of bio supply.
Hence we got pylon cannon, warp back, also queen buffs, talk about static defence buffs, warp prism pick up range, etc.
Bio Power:
- Bio unites the most possible dps per square of basic units.
Bio concept of free units:
- A red bio unit after a fight is a bio unit that took no damage at all. It pretty much works as muta and reaper regeneration and is very similar to the concept of free units like those of swarmhosts or broodlords. Just by average out of any fight many bio units remain in a damaged but not dead status. These immediately become units of full value and full power again due to heal. Heal during fights can be counted as hitpoint enlargement and is not really the issue imo.
Bio accessibility:
- Mostly tier one and gasless.
All these features require hard anti mechanics such as the colossus, the adept, the baneling, etc. With the implementation of these the heavy damage gameplay was born. These strong anti measures require a strong reaction of terran again for cases where bio just gets shut down and overrun otherwise with the new tools the other kids got. The vicious circle has been implemented in which we remain now. Resuls of this vicious circle are op unit and mechanic implementation which are frustrating not only for players against bio but everyone. While terrans don't see a problem with bio now they see it too. Implementations or thoughts about implementing mass armor ultralisks, mass range hydralisks, free units for cheap, more and more op spells, prism load in range, removal of upgrades or making them hell cheap all can be counted to that in addition to some of the op units mentioned above.
All this results into only few best compositions, skipping of midgames, not wasting time with tech switches but build the optimal composition from the start on such as terran is doing it and finally unrewarding gameplay as narrow as hell and without options.
Bio is so to speak the all in one composition that should only become available very late if at all. Technically blizzard could have taken away and still could take away from bio in order to then take away from bio counters and again then take away from counters to bio counters (such as mines or liberators), which would result in more breathing room, wiggling room and less narrow pathes for payers to go. That would result in rewarding gameplay as whole games would not stand or fall about if one type of counter was there in large enough amounts at the very right time or not. But they are captives in the state of mind that it is best to only scratch surfaces instead of going for the original issue. People can wonder for eternity why SC2 is no fun, this is the reason. They can wonder eternaly why mech isn't viable and why the overall game balance (includes e.g. the inner racial balance of units) is that fragile, the reason is the very same. Mech just cannot ever reach what bio provides the player with in any way. Therefore either you overpower it too (just as many of the named things) or it will just stay less desirable. There wont ever be the desired middle ground possible.
I don't play SC2 anymore too and don't want to contribute to current small scale balance adjustments as in my opinion those all happen within this vicious circle. Every fixed problem will create 1-2 new problems. It is without any sense and it wont ever reach a state where SC2 could be fun for me again. There is little hope that they end up having buffed everything other than bio at one point, which is the same as nerfing bio. But thats unlikely as stuff like muta regeneration, pylon cannon and many more things will remain implemented which I consider obsolete in a perfect world. So in order to reach that perfect world such things had to be removed and the game had to be balanced around metagames where these things (only named two out of many mechanics) do not exist. As they exist it will hardly be possible to reach any good state of SC2 when basing decisions on their existence.
Hence I say SC2 is doomed. They gonna try and do many changes which continue to scratch surfaces. They wanna leave good impressions with their customers and playerbase and continue to come up with stuff. The lifespan will be artificially enlarged more, the bubble that now bursted in korea will be replaced with a much smaller one. They gonna say in the end that they tried everything in order to make SC2 a fun game. It will fail. I have almost noone left in my wider circle of friends and online friends who gets any fun out of SC2 and is admiring to play it. Those few who still do run behind self put goals like reaching certain level and put belief into the esports bubble. But lets be honest guys, SC2 in its current state would not be an esports at all if blizzard didn't feed the bubble with money all over the place. Now I don't say give that all up, everyone does feed its bubble to a certain degree. It can and will work for plenty of more time if Blizzard is willing to hold it up. But I would rather see SC2 being kept alive like broodwar is, a desireable game to play and to master which by itself awakes interest of esport competitions and competitors. This cannot be achieved in any other way than making SC2 a fun game to play, with rewarding gameplay, with a more wide set of options for players, with less frustrating mechanics and interactions, which it now imo and in the opinion of many many other people defenitely is not. And that pretty much is not dependent on if liberators have 10 more damage or not, just like you expressed it in a perfect manner.
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On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond
I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though?
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I do not agree with a straight away nerf of the Liberator. The Problem imho is not the damage output of a single Liberator it is more an issue of how many Units a pack of Liberator kills in a fight.
I agree that the Liberator is maybe too strong against stalkers in a Gateway based Army. But everytime Liberators see a pack of hydras they evaporate.
My conclusion would be that if the damage of Liberators is reduced there shall be added something else that Improves the surviveability.
To kill a pack of stalkers or hydras, Liberators need much more time, leading to a huge increase in damage output of stalkers and Liberators that shall be compensated rather on a fight centric view than on straight damage figures. This will Slow Down the pace of the Fight for both Players making it ultimately more Micro Oriented and less sensitive for Minor balance issues, and thus more fun to play and to watch
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On January 25 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful)
I think that's because bliz has made a conscious effort to make the game largely worker harass first, then main army fighting second.
I mean think about it, a lot of the key moments from WoL were brought about by worker harass or attacks that involved them. Casters and audiences got hyped across the board when experiencing that level of attack - because it was the easiest signal to read: If you just killed a dozen drones, you are now ahead.
It became one of the key things to guard & protect (since SC is largely a resource gathering & spending game, and only at the higher levels does unit comp really matter a lot more).
bliz recognized that was wildly detrimental to newer players playing, and so they said to themselves, let's implement a few things that are really good at STOPPING that harass. (Widow Mine to defend against oracles/muta, and the liberator to defend against muta).
The only issue is that the widow mine used offensively as a drop into a mineral line is absolutely devastating, and i believe an unexpected consequence, and liberators seemed to be TOO good against air.
So they nerfed the AA aspect of the liberator (while still allowing it to maintain its role as ground specialist (??), and therefore massacre workers.
I feel like at this point, they decided 'forget this' and just went full tilt into worker harass is the key component of the game, which is why they don't have issues with widow mine decimating worker counts, or liberators being able to stop entire bases from mining
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On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though?
Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here.
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On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here.
In what way is it "hard" ? If you play in bronze/silver league it's not hard at all. The enemy isn't good. The chance of dying to a widow mine drop there is close to zero because the opponent probably forgets his medivac over your mineral line for 5 minutes to begin with.
Why exactly it's not fun? That's the actual problem here.
On January 25 2017 03:04 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 02:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Not entirely sure if i agree with him though. In general worker harass seems too strong atm (or rather too impactful) I think that's because bliz has made a conscious effort to make the game largely worker harass first, then main army fighting second. I mean think about it, a lot of the key moments from WoL were brought about by worker harass or attacks that involved them. Casters and audiences got hyped across the board when experiencing that level of attack - because it was the easiest signal to read: If you just killed a dozen drones, you are now ahead. It became one of the key things to guard & protect (since SC is largely a resource gathering & spending game, and only at the higher levels does unit comp really matter a lot more). bliz recognized that was wildly detrimental to newer players playing, and so they said to themselves, let's implement a few things that are really good at STOPPING that harass. (Widow Mine to defend against oracles/muta, and the liberator to defend against muta). The only issue is that the widow mine used offensively as a drop into a mineral line is absolutely devastating, and i believe an unexpected consequence, and liberators seemed to be TOO good against air. So they nerfed the AA aspect of the liberator (while still allowing it to maintain its role as ground specialist (??), and therefore massacre workers. I feel like at this point, they decided 'forget this' and just went full tilt into worker harass is the key component of the game, which is why they don't have issues with widow mine decimating worker counts, or liberators being able to stop entire bases from mining
Hm yeah but the problem is that it just feels too punishing a lot of the time. That is the stuff that is actually not fun for players just below the highest leagues (and even there it might be unfun tbh)
Worker harass is fine, but why does it have to be that potent? Why not design it in a way where small advantages add up over time? It's about comeback potential basically, if you lose a big chunk of your workers because of a single drop then you are screwed. Every decision you made before is basically irrelevant and you don't have a lot of options anymore either. It would be way better if you could only get to that poitn if the enemy harasses you multiple times throughout the game with stuff you can defend reasonably well. A lot of intreractions to show who is the better player, not one. (ofc there will always be strats which are about this one abusive tactic, but i feel blizzard promotes it)
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On January 25 2017 03:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. In what way is it "hard" ? If you play in bronze/silver league it's not hard at all. The enemy isn't good. The chance of dying to a widow mine drop there is close to zero because the opponent probably forgets his medivac over your mineral line for 5 minutes to begin with. Why exactly it's not fun? That's the actual problem here.
Yeah but you aren't good either otherwise you wouldn't be bronze, so you still have a hard time dealing with that mine drop cause youre as slow as your opponent
If in master vs master games are hard, why would they not be in bronze vs bronze?
sc2 was hard when i used to be bronze, silver, gold, platin, diamond and master, it's never been an easy game in 1v1 come on...
As for what is fun or not like i said, regardless of what blizzard does people will always complain. Can the game still get better though? For sure! Does it look like anyone has the answer? Not really
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that's funny.. because it is way more fun for me to play with a lead or play against someone who isn't as good. I tend to play with my food so to speak.. I get a lead and just ride it out.. I've won a ton of games just by getting a lead and never attacking ever... just sit back and relax lol
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On January 25 2017 03:13 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 03:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 03:04 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 25 2017 02:53 ArtyK wrote:On January 25 2017 02:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2017 02:37 Charoisaur wrote:On January 25 2017 01:07 DinoMight wrote:
Yo,
Blizzard needs to make this game fun or else nobody will play, and nobody will watch. You can't only balance around the top top tier of players and leave all the diamond Protosses out to dry. They are the target market! They are the people that are watching your eSports events and building community around the game.
If the game becomes unfun, people will stop playing, and they'll stop watching.
I've essentially moved on to CSGO as my main game now, because StarCraft hasn't been fun at all for me since LotV.
The biggest issue with Widow Mines and Liberators isn't the damage or the tech or build orders etc.... It's that it takes significantly more APM to play against them than with them. It's just not fun to have to work your ass off to fight these things only to get ROFLSTOMPED by a bunch of stim bio minutes later because you were busy microing fucking probes while the Terran sits in his base and presses 4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
I want the game to be about playing the game, not about babysitting your fucking probes all game. you can say exactly the same from a zerg/terran perspective and just replace liberators/widowmines with other units. This whole "waahaa only my race requires skill, the other races are all super easy" argument is just stupid and everyone who thinks that should play offrace until they've realized how wrong they were. Guys, I'm not just blanket whining. I've played enough SC2 at a high level for a very long time to understand that all races are hard in their own way. I'm only talking about the Widow mine right now and how it requires significantly more clicks to deal with than to use. I think this makes it very NOT fun to play against. You're honestly going to tell me that some random tournament in CSGO has 100x more viewers than the GSL because of skin betting? That's pretty naive. It has more viewers because it's more accessible and more fun to play. Wings of Liberty was fun. Hots was less fun. Legacy of the Void is not a fun game. If you don't believe me, (I assume I'm talking to mostly Terran and Zerg players) hit up the ladder and just TRY playing PvT right now. The first year of csgo there was literally no viewers for any tournaments, the game was more dead than sc2 ever was. But in 4 months with the addition of skins and the first major the daily player base got multiplied by 3, and it slowly got higher and higher to where we are now. Yes the game is easier to play, and people all left 1.6/source, esport got more popular and we had to choose the new number 1 fps, and csgo was the obvious choice. Is starcraft 2 an fps? No. Can you make it easy to play/accessible? Well unless you want to go back to your deathball colossi army i'm sorry but even that won't give it 500 000 viewers. Comparing it to the hottest esport title makes absolutely no sense given starcraft 2 history and gameplay. And please don't tell me you've played this game at high level, that's completly false, you're diamond I think people really overstate how "hard" sc2 is to play. Why? Because the lvl of your opponent matters how hard you really have to try. The real question is why low lvl players aren't motivated to continue playing. It is NOT "hard" to play in bronze league. Is it "fun" though? Hard is still the reason why people don't have fun though. Otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about balance on forums instead of playing. And as far as design goes, whatever blizzard does, some people will hate it and some will like it, theres no magic answer here. In what way is it "hard" ? If you play in bronze/silver league it's not hard at all. The enemy isn't good. The chance of dying to a widow mine drop there is close to zero because the opponent probably forgets his medivac over your mineral line for 5 minutes to begin with. Why exactly it's not fun? That's the actual problem here. Yeah but you aren't good either otherwise you wouldn't be bronze, so you still have a hard time dealing with that mine drop cause youre as slow as your opponent If in master vs master games are hard, why would they not be in bronze vs bronze? sc2 was hard when i used to be bronze, silver, gold, platin, diamond and master, it's never been an easy game in 1v1 come on... As for what is fun or not like i said, regardless of what blizzard does people will always complain. Can the game still get better though? For sure! Does it look like anyone has the answer? Not really
Well yeah but that's the point. Both players are rather bad, there is no need to play "well" (and thus fast, lots of multitasking, lots of stress). When i was in bronze/silver you could simply macro a bit and pretty much every game got to huge armies a moving into each other because no player was actually good enough to abuse anything.
How many games did i simply build mass bcs/carrier in a low league game and attack at the 20-30 minute mark? The game isn't hard per se, it absolutely depends on yourself.
With that being said, i think if you get a bit better and realize that there are abusive things which can end the game rather fast, that's the point where real frustration arises for a lot of players because it oftentimes is way easier to execute that abusive strategy/tactic than it is to defend it. That's one thing blizzard should be aware of i think.
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EPT
