EPTif ur like him and u just wanna camp hardcore and spam defenses everywhere and not move out till ur army is unbeatable pvz seems like ur best bet atm
Community Feedback Update - January 19 - Page 10
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Comedy
456 Posts
if ur like him and u just wanna camp hardcore and spam defenses everywhere and not move out till ur army is unbeatable pvz seems like ur best bet atm | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On January 22 2017 04:22 LSN wrote: SC2 is doomed. It is kinda obvious that SC2 is lacking the clear vision of one brilliant mind who has envisioned how every little detail and interaction must look like and subordinate everything else to it. Fixing SC2 can no longer be a group effort based on democratic decisions, making it this way one time and the other way the other time to make everyone happy and to take each narrative into concern. The issues are too diverse and overwhelming. Decisions must be made instead of holding discussions. Reasonability must be created instead of balance. Sources must be attacked instead of surfaces. The only thing that can fix SC2 is the route of highest risks and highest casualties but highest potential reward. And it still would only work out if everything would be subordinated to that one vision and narrative of SC2 no matter what. The latest chance of a 3/4 year development recap was not only missed but heavily failed. Buffs over nerfs once again proved to be as wrong as they were in 2010. Community feedback will continue to show up issues of tiny nature about high level balance but they wont bring the great effort of a rounded construct, that SC2 requires to be in order to become a satisfying gameplay experience. That can only come out of a single mind or very few minds that think alike. What SC2 is, is the consequence of mixing up different kinds of good ideas and approaches instead of strictly following one basic vision and concept and dissmissing others. It is the offort of making everybody happy. Games should not take longer than X amount of time. Game should have constant action. Buffs over nerfs. One unit must be cooler than the other. You got exactly that, nothing else is SC2 now. Add to that that inner racial balance is fucked up and needs to be redone from zero. Hydralisk tier 2 is quite odd with no other real anti air than that. Terran building one kind of unit mix that is best in main army, best in harrassment and best in base def at the same time. Protoss being as bad that it requires first force fields and colossi in every mix and then nexus/pylon cannon and MSC teleport to stay competitive at all. It is really not my thing to blame few single persons as SC2 was a group effort. But at this point of time personnel consequences are inevitable. What does Dustin Browder that crashed the whole C&C series into ground have to do with starcraft? Starcraft is the level he has never reached with about 10+ C&C titles throughout the years and continues to do so with SC2. DB is probably the right guy to make games look cool and sell them but not to give them a solid substance for years to hold. DK, probably not even responsible for the mess that SC2 is himself, is still not the right guy to pull it out of that. Please get your facts right instead of spreading misinformation. Dustin Browder was only Designer of exactly two C&C titles, C&C Red Alert 2 and Generals. And those two were one of the most popular and most liked from the C&C franchise. If anyone "crashed C&C into ground" it was EA. Especially ruining it with the horrible C&C 4 part. While I can´t talk about balance and won´t do that cause I haven´t played it in months, not because I don´t like it but because I just can´t (crap PC otherwise I would love to play it again trust me), I don´t understand their decisions. They buffed the Tank in order to make Mech more viable with the Tank and the Cyclone being the core. Now they want to nerf it again? No wonder people say things like " they don´t know/have no clue about their own game" . But to be fair, Blizz brought this on themselves. When Players/viewers started slowly turning their back on the game during the Broodlord/Infestor era, that´s when they should have pulled the emergency brake and do something. But they rather waited months for the next expansion, same they did with the Mass Raven/Swarmhost era and waited AGAIN. People thought they wouldn´t do anything and quit the game. Now they desperately try to extinguish the fires they laid themselves. Feedback is good and healthy for a game but Im unsure if they should depend only on players opinions. Devs should always know what is good for their own game themselves. Maybe a little bit more transparency would help. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 22 2017 05:21 InfCereal wrote: Except for all the people who enjoy the game. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's doomed. While typically, it's true, and forums really are filled with people complaining and making the communities look a lot more negative than they really are. But in the case of the SC2 community... I think there's actually some validity to the complaints. It's not just complaints about the design and development, but an aura that's all about the game. So many of the pros that are funnest to watch are gone. General morale is very low. Growth has not only stalled but seems like loss is at a peak of SC2 history. I'm pretty sure there's more people now wishing competitive SC2 would make big changes for a comeback and be a fun game to play again, than players who are still playing and enjoying the game. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On January 22 2017 04:22 LSN wrote: SC2 is doomed. It is kinda obvious that SC2 is lacking the clear vision of one brilliant mind who has envisioned how every little detail and interaction must look like and subordinate everything else to it. Fixing SC2 can no longer be a group effort based on democratic decisions, making it this way one time and the other way the other time to make everyone happy and to take each narrative into concern. The issues are too diverse and overwhelming. Decisions must be made instead of holding discussions. Reasonability must be created instead of balance. Sources must be attacked instead of surfaces. The only thing that can fix SC2 is the route of highest risks and highest casualties but highest potential reward. And it still would only work out if everything would be subordinated to that one vision and narrative of SC2 no matter what. The latest chance of a 3/4 year development recap was not only missed but heavily failed. Buffs over nerfs once again proved to be as wrong as they were in 2010. Community feedback will continue to show up issues of tiny nature about high level balance but they wont bring the great effort of a rounded construct, that SC2 requires to be in order to become a satisfying gameplay experience. That can only come out of a single mind or very few minds that think alike. What SC2 is, is the consequence of mixing up different kinds of good ideas and approaches instead of strictly following one basic vision and concept and dissmissing others. It is the offort of making everybody happy. Games should not take longer than X amount of time. Game should have constant action. Buffs over nerfs. One unit must be cooler than the other. You got exactly that, nothing else is SC2 now. Add to that that inner racial balance is fucked up and needs to be redone from zero. Hydralisk tier 2 is quite odd with no other real anti air than that. Terran building one kind of unit mix that is best in main army, best in harrassment and best in base def at the same time. Protoss being as bad that it requires first force fields and colossi in every mix and then nexus/pylon cannon and MSC teleport to stay competitive at all. It is really not my thing to blame few single persons as SC2 was a group effort. But at this point of time personnel consequences are inevitable. What does Dustin Browder that crashed the whole C&C series into ground have to do with starcraft? Starcraft is the level he has never reached with about 10+ C&C titles throughout the years and continues to do so with SC2. DB is probably the right guy to make games look cool and sell them but not to give them a solid substance for years to hold. DK, probably not even responsible for the mess that SC2 is himself, is still not the right guy to pull it out of that. Man i love your posts | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On January 22 2017 14:00 Qwyn wrote: Are you serious? They're just going to shelf the hydra buff? Welp...looks like I'm not going to be playing for a long, long time...sigh... What? You don't enjoy going ling bane in every matchup? | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On January 22 2017 01:21 reneg wrote: You say it yourself: Armani was already ahead. You're saying that if a Z sees a T player going mech, and is in the lead, then they didn't be able to do anything about it? I don't feel like that's a very good way at looking at matchups add trying to find balance in the game. I feel like that's like those people who get their spire scouted, then proceed to be sad that the T poster put up defenses in their main and just shut it down. There is supposed to be an answer to mech, and right now, that is swarm hosts. There's a huge difference between "having an answer to" and "shutting down" something. It's ok that banshees shut down roach allins. It's not okay that a single unit shuts down an entire playstyle. Just ask snute, right now mech gets shut down by SHs. I'm just saying i'm glad armani used SHs in this game, and maybe when it becomes clear from pro games that SHs completely invalidate mech in the state they are, blizz will finally acknowledge it. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On January 22 2017 22:09 JackONeill wrote: There's a huge difference between "having an answer to" and "shutting down" something. It's ok that banshees shut down roach allins. It's not okay that a single unit shuts down an entire playstyle. Just ask snute, right now mech gets shut down by SHs. I'm just saying i'm glad armani used SHs in this game, and maybe when it becomes clear from pro games that SHs completely invalidate mech in the state they are, blizz will finally acknowledge it. Kind of like of banelings shut down the entire bio playstyle amirite | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal. At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s"  I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community.. P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
Either the people commenting are in denial that even the best protosses don't find an answer to the current balance state, or they don't even know about it. I think that something which can be done about it is delaying one of the routes which a terran player can go for in this match-up. The main difference with the prepatch (where protoss doesn't really differs in the early game), is that terran has way more ways to harass early on and the protoss can't really scout what would that be. The new tools are the cyclone and the more powerful tank. Therefore, I think an upgrade should be added to the factory tech-lab which will delay the use of cyclones (or widowmines). For example, either: 1. Roll back the range the cyclones had (4) and the upgrade which increased their range back to 6 in the factory tech lab, or 2. Remove the bonus damage widow mines do to shields and make an upgrade in the tech lab which will allow widow mines do bonus damage to shields. (it won't prevent them 1 shooting bunch of lings, banes, or probes) I think both can help PvT. The second one considers only the PvT match-up so may be its the preferred one. | ||
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Espartaquen
88 Posts
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JoFar
31 Posts
In my opinion Blizzard never really was brave enough to change terran. Just look at the "we want to make mech more viable" point. Maybe it is just not viable enough because bio is too strong? And blizzard never really did something about that. I mean, zerg had times where some unit compositions were OP ... roach/ ravager in the beginning, BL/investor, swarmhosts ... what happened ... it got nerfed (and rightfully so). Toss had some OP unit compositions ... blink stalkers, strong colossi in HOTs, adepts ... what happened ... it got nerfed (and again, rightfully so). For Terran BIO was nearly always the more viable option. So if Blizzard really wants to make mech more viable ... why they don't have the courage to nerf bio? Just like they nerfed Z and P playstyles? I just don't get it. The only nerf terran got i can remember was the small marauder nerf with lotv ... but that's just irrelevant, cause marines are much more important anyways and on the other hand the mech units that were added over the time are working extremely good with bio style (especially widow mine and Liberator or tankivac ... which got removed i know, but you can't count that as a BIO nerf). If Blizzard wants to make Mech more powerful, don't add units which work better with bio style anyways. Zyclone was a step in the right direction, and i also think the actual tank is in an okay state. But widow mines and Liberator are useless for a mech style, und in combination with themselfes - and with tanks and very mobile bio - its just too much. Remove +shield damage for the widow mines would be a good first step i think. Also wouldn't affect the usibility against Z ling baneling styles. But in the end Blizzard should remove the Liberator completely i think. It is just a bad designed unit which fulfilles a role other terran units already are fulfilling. Maybe adding something like the BW Goliath instead ... that would really help mech style and wouldn't just be another addition towards a mainly bio style army What i personally dislike the most about terran is the inbalance between tier 1/2 und tier 3 units. Protoss has strong carriers (and they should be as strong, i think), zerg has strong ultras and BL but thors and BCs are not good at all. Again, maybe that's also the case because a lot of the cheaper and faster-to-build tier 1 and 2 units are simply too strong .. but thor and BC could use a buff so we can see it more in high level games. At least reducing building time or something like that would surely help. Just hoping there will be some changes soon ... As much as i like the effort from blizzard to work und communicate with the community ... feedback updates like that one where not one change is done ... don't know, i just don't see any additional value in such postings. | ||
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SpecKROELLchen
Germany151 Posts
Because imo bio is one thing about starcraft that is great. With good micro and multitasking you can make these units incredibly strong, while without good micro you will fall behind. Give byun 16 marines 2 medivacs or give it to a random pro, that makes a huge difference (sure that can be said to many things). The problem is that starcraft has too many things where just one race is able to micro and the other can just minimize the damage or take huge losses, which results in frustration. These are for example: archon bombs or mmm vs lings at mineral lines. Imo good things were tankivac micro vs ravagermicro, bling/ling splits vs marine marauder splits and early game micro fights where 3-5 units interact with each other. I think in tvt and pvp we see most of these. And that is also what can make great VODs and is viewerfriendly. | ||
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fx9
117 Posts
On January 23 2017 02:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: No wonder they don't talk to anyone from the community... SC2 might dodged the toxicity bullet (which is being raised Avilo anyway), but it is the most negative community in the gaming industry. There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal. At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s" I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community.. P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope Your point is valid if Blizzard did its job well or even semi-well by listening to the community. Hell, they have a mega long beta testing asking for community's input. Instead of removing photon overcharge, they replaced it with pylon overcharge. Instead of reducing libs range, they give z faster spore burrow time. When it is not enough, they buff queens AA range. Instead of reverting marauders double attacks, Blizzard upgrade snipes to counter ultralisk. And Protoss has been complaining about lack of dps especially from stalkers for ages, & they get DT blink instead. DT blink, baneling +10hp, invulnerable nydus, perms cloaked investors, tankivacs, teleport BC, reaper grenades, 8armor ultra are some of the random bufffs that DK's team randomly pulls out of their asses without input from the community. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
well, the game today is : - if not dead vastly unsuccesful compared to where it used to be ; - plagued with design and balance issues far worse than the ones we had in early HotS for instance. Each expansion solved some problems but came with a whole bunch of new ones, so that in the end the state of the game never really improved - and this was bound to happen since they decided to make 2 expansions and to add units for the sake of adding units with each expansion to justify the sell price. Who can say that the game wouldn't be better - or at least had any hope of reaching a succesful state - if we were working around a version without the liberator, the swarm host and the adept for instance ? Moreover, every big patch came with stupidly random things that just make the game so confusing you lose the will to play it even if you really love the game - I do, or at least I did, believe me. so yeah I think we should all congratulate ourselves because we - the community with its constant whining and general bad attitude is at least equally responsible for all of this than the dev team - committed the perfect murder. And the victim is not just SC2, I think we're not going to get another good rts for quite some time now, if ever, which is a huge shame. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
so yeah, mech should see some improvements again imo one could star with combining mech&air weapon upgrades again | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
reducing the shield damage of widow mines brings us back to what we had with the nerfed mines in hots. protoss would just go mass zealot + archon again and terran cant get ghosts out early enough to deal with that. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
Protoss need reliable ground comp vs zerg! Nerf carriers but do somthing to zerg, cause baneling + w/e destroys everything. FF is unreliable and easily countered (too much gaz investement). Roach/ravager is cheap as fck. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 23 2017 02:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: No wonder they don't talk to anyone from the community... SC2 might dodged the toxicity bullet (which is being raised Avilo anyway), but it is the most negative community in the gaming industry. There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal. At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s" I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community.. P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope I disagree with this, because ever since LotV beta, they have not even had a guiding light for their own game. They aren't working towards a design goal. This isn't growing pains. They have never worked on a solution to the problems. They don't have a long term plan. They are simply trying to deal with balance issues as they come, and dealing these PR updates every week, disguised as working with the community, when in reality they do whatever they want in the end anyway. The straw that broke the camels back was in LotV beta when the lead designer straight up said that he chose against the better design of the game in order to please "some people in the community that has a false perception". Its his JOB to give us the best damn design he is capable of. And he intentionally made the choice against doing that. Since then, they have never came back on track. They promise us major "design" changes, and give us a half baked balance update where most the changes are reverted in the end anyway. They don't have any long term plan at all, and that's destined to fail. Sorry, but there's no way in hell I'm going to support a development team that does not even take the time to develop a solid plan for the games future. I gave them more money than I should have, and will not be giving them anymore unless they somehow regain strong leadership. This team has proven their not capable. The leader designer did not give us the best design he could, and when that happens, everything else underneath falls apart. You can say it's just "negativity in the community", but the level of incompetence that this team has shown, is unlike anything I've ever seen out of Blizzard. Ever. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Its THEIR JOB to design this game, not ours. And, obviously since its the internet and lots of people are on the internet, its pure logic that alot of posts are "garbage" and not "constuctive", thats why they need to ignore stuff like that and focus on posts that matter - again, thats their job not ours. Besides all of that, they can COMMUNICATE EVEN BETTER. For example, if they have an issue in their game that they think they have, they can communicate that, give some examples of gameplay issue with theory and how it works in practice and ask specific questions such as "If baneling was buffed in this sitaution, you think it could mean zerg can be offensive here", "Terran opens 1rax CC into 3rax marauder/marines with fast stimpack upgrade and then walks to protoss, if mothership core was removed here- What could be the options to do here for protoss to measure with terrans power?" The more specific you are instead of asking very broad questions the better posts you get as well. Right now when people answer in general all they need to do is put some emotion into it and express it. If the poster needs to think, you will get a post with more meaning and thought. | ||
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