On January 17 2017 03:55 MockHamill wrote: It is a bit ironic that mech actually struggles more in TvZ compared to before the 3.8 patch. One of the design goals of the 3.8 patch was to make mech more viable not less.
I think the following needs to be changed in order to make mech viable in TvZ 1. Increase Swarm Host cost. 2. Nerf Vipers. Some kind of abduct nerf is necessary.
Abduct is the only useful ability it has left. May as well just remove it if you're going to nerf abduct, too.
Sometimes I wonder if you people even realize the point of balancing a game is to get 50/50 win rates. Removing all of a race's answers to a strategy will not get a 50/50 win rate.
PB and blinding cloud are still extremely good against mech, altough I don't thing PB is a problem because sky terran is really strong.
However I agree with abduct, I think BC is not that problematic either (altough is a bit too strong currently) because is mostly useful against huge pushes and thus is a big counter to turtle strategies, however abudct makes small hit and run tactics for zerg way too strong and mech is already weak to these types of strategies and its what forces most mech games to be too defensive.
On January 17 2017 03:55 MockHamill wrote: It is a bit ironic that mech actually struggles more in TvZ compared to before the 3.8 patch. One of the design goals of the 3.8 patch was to make mech more viable not less.
I think the following needs to be changed in order to make mech viable in TvZ 1. Increase Swarm Host cost. 2. Nerf Vipers. Some kind of abduct nerf is necessary.
you need to nerf something on the mech side as well. battle cruisers and ravens are ridiculous atm. you also have to do something to the turtle potential. most people dont like to play against avilo cancer turtle style and being forced into it feels a bit like rape. engaging into a liberator/widowmine/tankline/turret is never fun for the attacking party unless u have those units urself. even then it can be tedious.
On January 17 2017 03:55 MockHamill wrote: It is a bit ironic that mech actually struggles more in TvZ compared to before the 3.8 patch. One of the design goals of the 3.8 patch was to make mech more viable not less.
I think the following needs to be changed in order to make mech viable in TvZ 1. Increase Swarm Host cost. 2. Nerf Vipers. Some kind of abduct nerf is necessary.
you need to nerf something on the mech side as well. battle cruisers and ravens are ridiculous atm. you also have to do something to the turtle potential. most people dont like to play against avilo cancer turtle style and being forced into it feels a bit like rape. engaging into a liberator/widowmine/tankline/turret is never fun for the attacking party unless u have those units urself. even then it can be tedious.
Well I agree that both mass ravens and battlecruicers need to be toned down.
Ravens are ok in low number but OP when massed. I suggest increasing their supply from 2 to 4 to make them harder to mass, and maybe lower the range of the seeker missile uppgrade.
Battlecruicers themselves are ok, but the teleport ability is too strong. Either make the teleport range shorter or increase the teleport cooldown.
On January 16 2017 20:11 Foxxan wrote: BECAUSE VARIATION IS GOOD. USINg your brain in different ways is good. Just as protoss can relie more on zealots or stalkers or mix up stalkers/sentries or mix up zealots/archons. Potentially. Just as terran can relie more on bio or relie more on mech. Its a bloody easy answer, its for variation and mech has potentially a good variation just as bio. No questions should be asked why its a good thing BIO AND MECH could work on their own.. Its a no-brain question that comes from people that doesnt understand a single thing about design in the first place.
Do you see people NOT WANT different compositioons for protoss? NO you dont, just as people like you shouldnt question the design process of variation and dynamic playstyles. It should exist, PERIOD. Stop these nonsense questions of WHY instead HOW should be the center.
Hey! We want Zerg to be able to amass small, but mass quantity units like lore. Let's gave banelings the ability to dissolve into 2 smaller banes upon death. Let's also allow Queen to produce small critters as well. Also, reduce supply cost on zerglings. And we want this style to be viable versus all races and builds, so let's make lings able to attack air. BECAUSE VARIATION IS GOOD. ITS OK IF THIS MAKES Z OP. - This is just mirroring your logic.
On January 17 2017 01:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Sure but we have to talk about the current iteration of sc2, no? :D Blizzcon is close enough, but even there it was largely because of the map. Not sure if we wanna create maps that way.
I still think the three base economy cap and therefore the dire need to be extremely efficient with your army is bad for the game. Ofc there is more to it than that though, but this was discussed a million times already :D
Hopefully we might see more testing with FRB-like map ideas since this year Blizzard is opening up their mapmaking constraints somewhat such as the number of mineral/gas nodes per expansion. I'm still a tad salty that they changed the 6m1g expansions on Tal'Darim Altar and Daybreak, but hopefully we can see mapmakers iterate expansion design to something more optimal this year now that they'll hopefully be more free to do that.
On January 17 2017 04:20 avilo wrote: Mech still worse on the "mech patch" than it ever has been. Swarmhosts currently are worse than the old ridiculous swarmhost that took over the game.
Virtually zero mech games at pro level. And if the Z knows about how to abuse swarmhosts it's always a loss.
Pretty disappointed.
That is sooo not true. Yesterday in Wardii Cup Gumiho owned Snute with mech on overgrowth in 30 minutes game 3 where Snute had mass vipers and SH with hydra and BL support. Here u go- pro level game with mech working fine. The only difference is that Gumiho was ACTIVE with his mech. Not only turtling and waiting to max out as You are doing Avilo.
And about workers and bases. No. Not everyone is oerfectly fine on 3 base economy. For Zerg it isn't the case. We need more because our engagements are almost always less eficient than Toss or Terran. U need 4 bases at least to compete with Terran or Toss 3 base eco.
On January 17 2017 04:20 avilo wrote: Mech still worse on the "mech patch" than it ever has been. Swarmhosts currently are worse than the old ridiculous swarmhost that took over the game.
Virtually zero mech games at pro level. And if the Z knows about how to abuse swarmhosts it's always a loss.
Pretty disappointed.
That is sooo not true. Yesterday in Wardii Cup Gumiho owned Snute with mech on overgrowth in 30 minutes game 3 where Snute had mass vipers and SH with hydra and BL support. Here u go- pro level game with mech working fine. The only difference is that Gumiho was ACTIVE with his mech. Not only turtling and waiting to max out as You are doing Avilo.
And about workers and bases. No. Not everyone is oerfectly fine on 3 base economy. For Zerg it isn't the case. We need more because our engagements are almost always less eficient than Toss or Terran. U need 4 bases at least to compete with Terran or Toss 3 base eco.
Did Snute use Swarm Hosts? If no that does not really prove anything. I can also use mech against Zergs that forgets to build Swarm Hosts.
If he did use Swarm Hosts, please provide link as that would be interesting to watch.
On January 17 2017 04:20 avilo wrote: Mech still worse on the "mech patch" than it ever has been. Swarmhosts currently are worse than the old ridiculous swarmhost that took over the game.
Virtually zero mech games at pro level. And if the Z knows about how to abuse swarmhosts it's always a loss.
Pretty disappointed.
That is sooo not true. Yesterday in Wardii Cup Gumiho owned Snute with mech on overgrowth in 30 minutes game 3 where Snute had mass vipers and SH with hydra and BL support. Here u go- pro level game with mech working fine. The only difference is that Gumiho was ACTIVE with his mech. Not only turtling and waiting to max out as You are doing Avilo.
And about workers and bases. No. Not everyone is oerfectly fine on 3 base economy. For Zerg it isn't the case. We need more because our engagements are almost always less eficient than Toss or Terran. U need 4 bases at least to compete with Terran or Toss 3 base eco.
Did Snute use Swarm Hosts? If no that does not really prove anything. I can also use mech against Zergs that forgets to build Swarm Hosts.
If he did use Swarm Hosts, please provide link as that would be interesting to watch.
Snute used swarmhosts. Still a terrible example since Snute played the game very badly and spent about 4k mineral in spores that never killed a unit all game long
Snute played as he played because he was forced into it by Gumiho play. For example very active squad of banshees, mass viking which with presplits killed everything in the air for Zerg. But Gumiho not alike most of mech whiners were PRESPLITTING his air to avoid massive parasitic bombs. He always engaged carefully and intellige t. I really think that people who are crying about mech being weak, are crying because they cannot a-move to victory after 25 minites of camping. Just go watch Innovation and Gumiho insteadd of Avilo and learn how to use it.
hiroshOne, I was evaluating the game, not asking for your one-directed obsession of defending the Zerg race/ attacking meching players. Gumiho played well. And Snute did not. I am not commenting on the mech viability, cuz that is something you do best apparently. So please keep the mech discussion to yourself.
On January 18 2017 01:09 Phaenoman wrote: hiroshOne, I was evaluating the game, not asking for your one-directed obsession of defending the Zerg race/ attacking meching players. Gumiho played well. And Snute did not. I am not commenting on the mech viability, cuz that is something you do best apparently. So please keep the mech discussion to yourself.
You gave your opinion on how Snute played and he gave his opinion on how Gumiho played. Your response was quite unwarranted.
On January 18 2017 01:09 Phaenoman wrote: hiroshOne, I was evaluating the game, not asking for your one-directed obsession of defending the Zerg race/ attacking meching players. Gumiho played well. And Snute did not. I am not commenting on the mech viability, cuz that is something you do best apparently. So please keep the mech discussion to yourself.
You gave your opinion on how Snute played and he gave his opinion on how Gumiho played. Your response was quite unwarranted.
His comment was another mech-directed post, not just an opinion on the match.
On January 18 2017 01:09 Phaenoman wrote: hiroshOne, I was evaluating the game, not asking for your one-directed obsession of defending the Zerg race/ attacking meching players. Gumiho played well. And Snute did not. I am not commenting on the mech viability, cuz that is something you do best apparently. So please keep the mech discussion to yourself.
You gave your opinion on how Snute played and he gave his opinion on how Gumiho played. Your response was quite unwarranted.
His comment was another mech-directed post, not just an opinion on the match.
The way he expressed his view was a little harsh but he gave reasons for why Gumiho played well and forced Snutes hand. He stated things that Gumi did in that particular match.
My post was exactly about mech. Mech is powerful but has weaknesses like low mobility.That's how it was designed. Good players can use that into their favor, bad players will whine and want compensation. For example Muta/bling is very mobile but fragile composition. Imagine Zergs whiningand crying to Blizzard to make Muta have 300 hp instead of 120 "because they die to fast to marines". It's just stupid. And here we go with you people- mech ownes everything on the ground for Zerg so the only option is Viper. And what do u do? Whine to nerf vipers and SH- Arguably the only things that give Zerg chance to compete. Avilo demands more mobility for mech- ok. I'm fine with that as soon as Blizzard nerfs its firepower and durability.
Mech is fine as AN OPTION for Terran. To mix it. Just as Zergs sometimes play Bling/muta or roach/ravager and shit. You will always have problems with mech being viable vs everything in every situation as mech is not a separate race but just an option for u to play. If i will play Roach/Ravager every matchup in every situation ignoring what my opponent is making- i will definitely lose more than win.
I was triggered by Avilo when he stated that there is LITERALLY no pro games with succesful mech. I find this to be a lie. Just to prove his bs.
On January 17 2017 01:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: Sure but we have to talk about the current iteration of sc2, no? :D Blizzcon is close enough, but even there it was largely because of the map. Not sure if we wanna create maps that way.
I still think the three base economy cap and therefore the dire need to be extremely efficient with your army is bad for the game. Ofc there is more to it than that though, but this was discussed a million times already :D
Hopefully we might see more testing with FRB-like map ideas since this year Blizzard is opening up their mapmaking constraints somewhat such as the number of mineral/gas nodes per expansion. I'm still a tad salty that they changed the 6m1g expansions on Tal'Darim Altar and Daybreak, but hopefully we can see mapmakers iterate expansion design to something more optimal this year now that they'll hopefully be more free to do that. + Show Spoiler +
thanks for posting the video. i watched and had forgotten about it. i hope they make good on this promise. i'd love to see some ladder maps with non-standard/unusual resource levels.
On January 18 2017 01:42 hiroshOne wrote: Mech is fine as AN OPTION for Terran. To mix it. Just as Zergs sometimes play Bling/muta or roach/ravager and shit. You will always have problems with mech being viable vs everything in every situation as mech is not a separate race but just an option for u to play. If i will play Roach/Ravager every matchup in every situation ignoring what my opponent is making- i will definitely lose more than win. I was triggered by Avilo when he stated that there is LITERALLY no pro games with succesful mech. I find this to be a lie. Just to prove his bs.
i agree. i play 60% of my games as Random and 40% as Terran in Diamond. I'm happy with Mech right now. for me its a solid OPTION as you call it. Which is exactly what DK wanted Mech to evolve into with LotV. Mech as an OPTION not an answer to everything or a race unto itself. Blizzard has done well with the post BlizzCon 2016 changes. i'm happy and having fun.
im actually 100% sure that in all the non-tournament, ~5k mmr games you guys play in that its never not worth it to upgrade both mech units and bio units and make use of them both
, especially if you are making mostly bionic, mech upgrades pay off big time even in small numbers of units (+1 to a tank is like 10% more dmg, you can reach a really discouraging amount of tanks really fast). you dont need 3/3 marines to buffer your mech, even if ur just cranking out 1/1 marines with stim and shields to go with ur mech, your composition will drastically improve, especially against a lot of the units mech struggles vs. if you dont buy it, go test in a unit tester. the interaction between the rapid fire rate of marines and large dmg blows from mech means less wasted shots from your shock cannons and more dead zerg.
when it comes to tvp, mech upgrades are kinda questionable, but the plating and ship weapons are pretty standard now
The game i played vs gumi on overgrowth had a lot of bad decisions on my end, not my proudest zvmech
I think ZvT balance (not design) is in a good spot and that swarm host strength is not that high of a priority in terms of balance (not design).
Some players do mech in KR gm. It's still viable in some scenarios assuming zerg goes a certain route, and there are some moves you can make vs hosts: trying to force zerg away from making swarm host, pushing SH tech further back in time (say, a banshee into liberator opening) - the first minutes of the game are very important. When you delay the onset of the hosts, they lose their snowball effect. From there you can do a lot of cool fake pressure moves, too. But if you do something like 2base cloakshee expand and run into 2base muta into 3base swarm host, you will probably lose. Mech usually is not very favorable unless Zerg makes roach/hydra/viper/etc.
I know there aren't that many swarm host games for reference. But I do have a small library of them and when I do play well, I find hosts to just destroy T if I get them out early enough. I've also played some SH games in previous series vs Gumiho and those games were wins in my favor. I'm a little bit surprised to not see hosts used more on the KR streams I've watched - there's actually a lot of roach hydra viper into broodlord going on still, and it often loses to bc/raven and stuff.
I would love to contribute with something useful but honestly the mech samples on the highest levels of play are so small I don't really know what to think besides this.
On January 18 2017 14:41 Liquid`Snute wrote: The game i played vs gumi on overgrowth had a lot of bad decisions on my end, not my proudest zvmech
I think ZvT balance (not design) is in a good spot and that swarm host strength is not that high of a priority in terms of balance (not design).
Some players do mech in KR gm. It's still viable in some scenarios assuming zerg goes a certain route, and there are some moves you can make vs hosts: trying to force zerg away from making swarm host, pushing SH tech further back in time (say, a banshee into liberator opening) - the first minutes of the game are very important. When you delay the onset of the hosts, they lose their snowball effect. From there you can do a lot of cool fake pressure moves, too. But if you do something like 2base cloakshee expand and run into 2base muta into 3base swarm host, you will probably lose. Mech usually is not very favorable unless Zerg makes roach/hydra/viper/etc.
I know there aren't that many swarm host games for reference. But I do have a small library of them and when I do play well, I find hosts to just destroy T if I get them out early enough. I've also played some SH games in previous series vs Gumiho and those games were wins in my favor. I'm a little bit surprised to not see hosts used more on the KR streams I've watched - there's actually a lot of roach hydra viper into broodlord going on still, and it often loses to bc/raven and stuff.
I would love to contribute with something useful but honestly the mech samples on the highest levels of play are so small I don't really know what to think besides this.
Thank You Snute for jumping in. But concidering all things you said. Do u think that Swarmhosts along with Vipers should be nerfed because they are making mech unviable? Honestly i also think that all the problems with balancing mech are sourced in design, but nerfing those two units would break the game for Zerg and we could have HOTS mech after SH nerf again.
On January 18 2017 14:41 Liquid`Snute wrote: The game i played vs gumi on overgrowth had a lot of bad decisions on my end, not my proudest zvmech
I think ZvT balance (not design) is in a good spot and that swarm host strength is not that high of a priority in terms of balance (not design).
Some players do mech in KR gm. It's still viable in some scenarios assuming zerg goes a certain route, and there are some moves you can make vs hosts: trying to force zerg away from making swarm host, pushing SH tech further back in time (say, a banshee into liberator opening) - the first minutes of the game are very important. When you delay the onset of the hosts, they lose their snowball effect. From there you can do a lot of cool fake pressure moves, too. But if you do something like 2base cloakshee expand and run into 2base muta into 3base swarm host, you will probably lose. Mech usually is not very favorable unless Zerg makes roach/hydra/viper/etc.
I know there aren't that many swarm host games for reference. But I do have a small library of them and when I do play well, I find hosts to just destroy T if I get them out early enough. I've also played some SH games in previous series vs Gumiho and those games were wins in my favor. I'm a little bit surprised to not see hosts used more on the KR streams I've watched - there's actually a lot of roach hydra viper into broodlord going on still, and it often loses to bc/raven and stuff.
I would love to contribute with something useful but honestly the mech samples on the highest levels of play are so small I don't really know what to think besides this.
Thanks Snute for a well detailed experience with swarm hosts.
A question, when you say delay the hosts, do you mean things like drone harass (esp. the ones in gas), or forcing you to use larvae on combat units instead of drones? What are some of the effective ways your hosts are delayed? And what numbers do you need to start that 'snowball' effect you mentioned?
EPT
