EPTWhat is still missing for the competitve scene?
A good game. LoL
Most important of them all..
Community Feedback Update - Jan 6 + Jan 10 Update - Page 13
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
What is still missing for the competitve scene? A good game. LoL Most important of them all.. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On January 13 2017 16:53 Tyrhanius wrote: Well and you're part of the guys who say mech needed some buffs, because it wasn't viable ? Now you admit it was viable ? You just wanted to push your winrate from 55-60% to 70-80 % ? Pretty disgusting to see terrans like you using balance discussion for lobying, and asking to make their race stronger while you even admit it wasn't needed as your winrates were >50% When we saw all this terrans claiming : " Mech isn't viable", buff tanks, nerf vipers, etc...", they get a massive amount of buffs, and as a result balance is worst than before (specially PvT with 40%...). Now obviously you're again lobbying for nerfing another counter of your style... This does not make sense. Mech players want the matchups to be even just like every other player. For instance right now Teran bio vs Terras mech is balanced. This is good for the game compared to if every game was bio vs bio or mech vs mech since it creates a richer and more varied gameplay experience when more playstyles are possible. Right now only Terran bio is viable in TvZ. That makes the game less interesting compared to if both bio and mech were viable in the matchups, for the same reason. Ideally we want as many playstyles as possible to be viable in all matchups and that no unit should prevent an entire playstyle from being viable. For instance pre-nef Liberators were bad for the game since they made Mutalisk obselete so it was a good thing for the game that the Liberator got nerfed. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On January 13 2017 16:53 Tyrhanius wrote: Well and you're part of the guys who say mech needed some buffs, because it wasn't viable ? Now you admit it was viable ? You just wanted to push your winrate from 55-60% to 70-80 % ? Pretty disgusting to see terrans like you using balance discussion for lobying, and asking to make their race stronger while you even admit it wasn't needed as your winrates were >50% When we saw all this terrans claiming : " Mech isn't viable", buff tanks, nerf vipers, etc...", they get a massive amount of buffs, and as a result balance is worst than before (specially PvT with 40%...). Now obviously you're again lobbying for nerfing another counter of your style... If you read my post instead of projecting your anger (towards the most zerg-like playstyle terran can play by the way), i never said mech was viable in LOTV. I said i managed to have good winrates pre-3.8 with it. Mainly because zergs didn't know how to play against it. It's just like playing mech against toss in HOTS. Relying on the lack of knowledge and lack ability to adapt of your opponent isn't having "viable" mech in the matchup. It's just abusing your opponent's stupidity. Having viable mech is incompatible with having a very cheap unit spawning free units every minute, that can fly and overwhelm any amount of static defense. That just doesn't work. And that's why there is no mech play in pro games (except for inno semi-allining Dark five times in a row at IEM), because it's not "viable". Even byun, while doing this build, was defeated by a croatian player during nation wars 4 (can't remember his name) because he simply went for mutas. And even then, the whole build is about killing off your opponent before he can get to SH/T3. So please, next time you see mech games that go past the 15th minute mark in pro TvZs, maybe you'll be entitled to complain, but right now you're just being intellectually dishonnest. | ||
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cmdspinner1
140 Posts
On January 13 2017 20:59 JackONeill wrote: If you read my post instead of projecting your anger (towards the most zerg-like playstyle terran can play by the way), i never said mech was viable in LOTV. I said i managed to have good winrates pre-3.8 with it. Mainly because zergs didn't know how to play against it. It's just like playing mech against toss in HOTS. Relying on the lack of knowledge and lack ability to adapt of your opponent isn't having "viable" mech in the matchup. It's just abusing your opponent's stupidity. Having viable mech is incompatible with having a very cheap unit spawning free units every minute, that can fly and overwhelm any amount of static defense. That just doesn't work. And that's why there is no mech play in pro games (except for inno semi-allining Dark five times in a row at IEM), because it's not "viable". Even byun, while doing this build, was defeated by a croatian player during nation wars 4 (can't remember his name) because he simply went for mutas. And even then, the whole build is about killing off your opponent before he can get to SH/T3. So please, next time you see mech games that go past the 15th minute mark in pro TvZs, maybe you'll be entitled to complain, but right now you're just being intellectually dishonnest. Is the Swarmhost currently used in other matchups than ZvMech? if not i don't understand why the swarmhost is even in the game because I think zerg has enough options to counter mech (Viper hardcounters the entire playstyle). The only possible problem for zerg vs. mech i could possibly imagine is early cyclone pressure/allins. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On January 13 2017 21:16 cmdspinner1 wrote: Is the Swarmhost currently used in other matchups than ZvMech? if not i don't understand why the swarmhost is even in the game because I think zerg has enough options to counter mech (Viper hardcounters the entire playstyle). The only possible problem for zerg vs. mech i could possibly imagine is early cyclone pressure/allins. Absolutely not. I've never seen a swarm host post 3.8 used for anything but to destroy mech. But that's "working as intended" because i remember DK stating that they overbuffed the swarm host to force people to use it. Which is of course insanely idiotic for a unit that has such poor design : the swarm host will always be extremely OP or terrible against mech, while being useless against other comps. The SH should be a long range AoE anti air T3 unit that can be used to punish turtly play => mass air. The carrier and the BC can't stay in the state they are against zerg, but if they're nerfed back they won't be used ever. Giving zerg means to kill off air transitions that aren't sustained by a good economy (aka : playing a normal game => mass air instead of turtle => mass air). This would insure a much more reliable and fair late game AoE AA for zerg, instead of forcing the race to an extreme reliance on vipers, meaning the parasitic bomb could be cut. Also, this would buff the broodlords indirectly. The position blizzard adopted towards turtle play in Mech V Zerg was "let's buff the late game units, and give both sides the ability to deal free damage". Free damage based on energy (viper abduct, raven turrets or seekers), or free damage based on cooldowns (BC yamato/teleport, swarm host locusts). Problem is, as we've seen in late HOTS were late game mech was unbeatable for zerg while blinding clouds and abducts were extremely oppressive, that leads to moronic turtle games where terran seeks to depleat the map's ressources, with vipers preventing any attempt at doing a timing attack. Now vipers are even more abusive, and late game skyterran is arguably even more unbeatable (liberators, raven steroids seeker, BC teleport/yamato). The only way mech will be viable, with agressive choices, will be to nerf the viper slightly and redesign the SH into a late game AoE AA unit that makes zerg not terrible against skyterran/skytoss. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
And your proposal of nerfing Vipers (again)...So basically nerf vipers that are preventing timing deadly pushes and instead change SH to deal better with lategame terran air? LOL. This is so silly proposal as that would mean that Zerg dies in those timing pushes as Viper is the only valuable counter and we never get to lategame. Nice bias. | ||
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cmdspinner1
140 Posts
On January 13 2017 23:09 hiroshOne wrote: Viper abducts are not free damage as uneed actually dmg dealing army to kill unit after the pull. Ravens with autoturets and seeker missile are different story and indeed free damage. And your proposal of nerfing Vipers (again)...So basically nerf vipers that are preventing timing deadly pushes and instead change SH to deal better with lategame terran air? LOL. This is so silly proposal as that would mean that Zerg dies in those timing pushes as Viper is the only valuable counter and we never get to lategame. Nice bias. Timing pushes only work before vipers are out, moving out when vipers are out is suicide. There have been reasonable proposals how to nerf vipers vs mech slightly, for instance by making the blinding cloud reduce the range of targeted units by half instead of making them entirely useless. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On January 13 2017 23:20 cmdspinner1 wrote: Timing pushes only work before vipers are out, moving out when vipers are out is suicide. There have been reasonable proposals how to nerf vipers vs mech slightly, for instance by making the blinding cloud reduce the range of targeted units by half instead of making them entirely useless. Nerfing the viper in a very simple way would be to make abduct unable to target ground massive. This way, mech players deciding to invest into ground to do some kind of push could use the thor's long range AA to zone out vipers. Which wouldn't make the vipers any worse when engaging with blinding cloud, or at picking off units that aren't properly covered by thors. And for zerg this would open the way for the hydra buff, which in the current state of things wouldn't make much sense, or/and a broodlord buff back to 11 range to make thors less of a counter. On January 13 2017 23:09 hiroshOne wrote: Viper abducts are not free damage as uneed actually dmg dealing army to kill unit after the pull. Ravens with autoturets and seeker missile are different story and indeed free damage. And your proposal of nerfing Vipers (again)...So basically nerf vipers that are preventing timing deadly pushes and instead change SH to deal better with lategame terran air? LOL. This is so silly proposal as that would mean that Zerg dies in those timing pushes as Viper is the only valuable counter and we never get to lategame. Nice bias. The aim is to reduce zerg's overreliance on vipers by nerfing it and buffing actual units that can trade favorably against mech, depending on the composition the terran uses, while making turtly air strats much weaker by giving zerg a counter to it with T3. Since the latest mech games we've seen in 3.8 (and pretty much the only ones) were innovation against dark, where his entire build was to kill dark before T3 (2 factories semi allin => +3 factories mass tank with no starport, while constantly scanning the lair to push out when T3 started), accusing me of bias when advocating a very slight viper nerf, a SH redesign and other zerg units buffs is kinda silly don't you think? | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
with this change we would greatly buff all gateway units for later stages... the shield buff should not be stackable just an idea... | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On January 14 2017 00:02 KOtical wrote: i would love them to see play around a bit with sentrys... my idea make an update at the cyber core wich provides the possibilty to switch between either forcefields or shield upgrade. shield upgrades would add some more shield to all units (more for gateway units less for everything else (robo, air, templars)within a certain range. After completing the upgrade u can either switch between forcefields or shield generator/buff. the switch should take a while so they cant switch mid fight. with this change we would greatly buff all gateway units for later stages... the shield buff should not be stackable. just an idea... damn hitted quote instead of edit =( sorry for doublepost | ||
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Exquisite7
34 Posts
On January 14 2017 00:02 KOtical wrote: i would love them to see play around a bit with sentrys... my idea make an update at the cyber core wich provides the possibilty to switch between either forcefields or shield upgrade. shield upgrades would add some more shield to all units (more for gateway units less for everything else (robo, air, templars)within a certain range. After completing the upgrade u can either switch between forcefields or shield generator/buff. the switch should take a while so they cant switch mid fight. with this change we would greatly buff all gateway units for later stages... the shield buff should not be stackable just an idea... Cool idea, sentries have lost a lot of value in LOTV especially vs terran. We used to see people open with a sentry all the time but now its considered super risky because of a single reaper or double adept openers/oracle, ling drop openers. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On January 13 2017 23:33 JackONeill wrote: The aim is to reduce zerg's overreliance on vipers by nerfing it and buffing actual units that can trade favorably against mech, depending on the composition the terran uses, while making turtly air strats much weaker by giving zerg a counter to it with T3. Since the latest mech games we've seen in 3.8 (and pretty much the only ones) were innovation against dark, where his entire build was to kill dark before T3 (2 factories semi allin => +3 factories mass tank with no starport, while constantly scanning the lair to push out when T3 started), accusing me of bias when advocating a very slight viper nerf, a SH redesign and other zerg units buffs is kinda silly don't you think? Explain me which units could receive buff and trade well vs mech... The tank crush all the ground zerg units, outrange them (yeah tank is the unit with the longest range of the game), while tanks don't even need Aclik, they auto-fire in sieged mode... Your idea is quite simple to understand : You want : Tanks hard counter all ground zerg (already the case), Thors hard counter all air : Make both, can't lose... Your idea of mech play don't imply at any moment the 50% possibility for Zerg of winning the game, how you engage a sieged tank line as zerg ? You don't want zerg to make SH, you don't want zerg to make vipers. Zerg buff to allow them to engage a sieged tank line ? What ? 215 HP roach ? 120 HP Hydras ? to help them engaging tanks, and survive one more hit ? Broodlords on lair ? 5 larvas per inject ? 40 mineral to build a worker ? 200 mineral Hatch ? to make Zerg eco strong enough to compensate trading so badly vs Mech ? That's also funny how many terran complains about mech on TvT while they have ten times more tools to counter it than zerg, but well better complain about the only three zerg counter of the tanks... You know you can create a mod with the editor with what you want, and try the change you want, and publish it so everyone can play it. But i bet in that mod, Zerg wouldn't have any chance of beating terran. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On January 14 2017 04:09 Tyrhanius wrote: Explain me which units could receive buff and trade well vs mech... The tank crush all the ground zerg units, outrange them (yeah tank is the unit with the longest range of the game), while tanks don't even need Aclik, they auto-fire in sieged mode... First of all that's simply wrong. Tempest is the unit with the most range in the game. Also, if you're already complaining about the way sieged units work, that's a bad start. On January 14 2017 04:09 Tyrhanius wrote: Your idea is quite simple to understand : You want : Tanks hard counter all ground zerg (already the case), Thors hard counter all air : Make both, can't lose... Your idea of mech play don't imply at any moment the 50% possibility for Zerg of winning the game, how you engage a sieged tank line as zerg ? Tanks countering ground zerg => why not, at some point they do sure. Thors countering all air => thors countering all air? Have you ever tried countering broodlords with thors in equal supplies? You're gonna have a fun time. Also it's pretty pointless to talk about tanks and thors vs ground or air zerg without taking into account that blinding cloud works against both tanks and thors, against both AG and AA capabilities of ground mech. Which is quite fair i suppose, but makes the engage pretty much rely on the exectution and positionning of both players. And how do you engage a sieged position with zerg? Either you don't and attack someplace else (duh) to strech defenses, or you use vipers with blinding cloud or abduct everything that's not covered by a turret. Making vipers unable to grab thors won't change the siege breaking ability of the viper. It'll just mean that you'll either have to engage with vipers and blinding cloud, or trade vipers for the key units constituting the defenses of the terran that'll allow you to overwhelm him. Right now, with good control, attacking a position with enough vipers is pretty much free with good abducts. On January 14 2017 04:09 Tyrhanius wrote: You don't want zerg to make SH, you don't want zerg to make vipers. Zerg buff to allow them to engage a sieged tank line ? What ? 215 HP roach ? 120 HP Hydras ? to help them engaging tanks, and survive one more hit ? Broodlords on lair ? 5 larvas per inject ? 40 mineral to build a worker ? 200 mineral Hatch ? to make Zerg eco strong enough to compensate trading so badly vs Mech ? That's also funny how many terran complains about mech on TvT while they have ten times more tools to counter it than zerg, but well better complain about the only three zerg counter of the tanks... You know you can create a mod with the editor with what you want, and try the change you want, and publish it so everyone can play it. But i bet in that mod, Zerg wouldn't have any chance of beating terran. That's just sterile complains that aren't constructive at all. Giving 10 HPs to hydras would make it so that tanks without +2 attack won't 2 shot hydras anymore, which greatly decreases the pushing capabilities of mech before zerg has T3. 11 range broodlords makes them much better at overwhelming thors, that will end up being incapacitated by broodlings (and blinding clouds) when attempting to get in range. Coupling it with a "can't grab ground massive" on the viper and SH redesign to be T3 and fit the role of the parasitic bomb (while being more reliable and efficient) would de-emphasize how much zerg depends on the viper to actually allow much more interactions in mech V Zerg before reaching the late game. Seems to me you're just complaining because you're getting stomped by mech on the ladder. Give me a single pro 3.8 game where terran plays mech and wins against 5-6 vipers and we can talk about it, but for now i'll put you in the "too busy to whine about his ladder experience to see the big picture". | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
But if siege tank is so cool, why don't you propose lurker with 13 range too ? Then would be a funny tanks vs lurker positionnal play ? (decrease lurker speed, and make them visible if you want) | ||
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t0ssboy
Bulgaria681 Posts
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VHbb
689 Posts
 not a useful feedback | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 13 2017 20:37 MockHamill wrote: For instance right now Teran bio vs Terras mech is balanced. This is good for the game compared to if every game was bio vs bio or mech vs mech since it creates a richer and more varied gameplay experience when more playstyles are possible. Right now only Terran bio is viable in TvZ. That makes the game less interesting compared to if both bio and mech were viable in the matchups, for the same reason. Ideally we want as many playstyles as possible to be viable in all matchups and that no unit should prevent an entire playstyle from being viable. For instance pre-nef Liberators were bad for the game since they made Mutalisk obselete so it was a good thing for the game that the Liberator got nerfed. who cares about mirror matchup balance? Balancing for mirror matchup that ends up disrupting non-mirror matchup balance is a horrendous idea. And why does T units to be buffed to make things more interesting? Why should mech be viable in first place? Do you see Protoss players whining they can't go pure Robo builds for the sake of 'more interesting builds'? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Just as protoss can relie more on zealots or stalkers or mix up stalkers/sentries or mix up zealots/archons. Potentially. Just as terran can relie more on bio or relie more on mech. Its a bloody easy answer, its for variation and mech has potentially a good variation just as bio. No questions should be asked why its a good thing BIO AND MECH could work on their own.. Its a no-brain question that comes from people that doesnt understand a single thing about design in the first place. Do you see people NOT WANT different compositioons for protoss? NO you dont, just as people like you shouldnt question the design process of variation and dynamic playstyles. It should exist, PERIOD. Stop these nonsense questions of WHY instead HOW should be the center. | ||
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