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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Before the patch mech was viable until vipers were out. So you could at least do a pre-hive mech push. Now mech can not even move out in the midgame due to Swarm Hosts. But Blizzard does not fix this since pro gamers have given up on mech in TvZ tournament matches. So Blizzard never see how OP Swarm Hosts are since no one builds them against bio, which is 100% of the TvZ now. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
In the super-praised BW you very rarely see bio played against protoss, but it is still a very successful game. You can play bio, bio+tanks, bio+mines, air.. it's fairly similar to gateway units, gateway units+robo, airtoss ... | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Maybe Maybe blizzard loves swarmhosts, thats why they buffed mech so they could buff swarmhosts aswell. Maybe in office, they say "casuals like swarmhosts" and therefore they make this unit work. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On January 13 2017 05:24 VHbb wrote: Maybe pure-mech doesn't have to be viable in all circumstances, against all opponents. In the super-praised BW you very rarely see bio played against protoss, but it is still a very successful game. You can play bio, bio+tanks, bio+mines, air.. it's fairly similar to gateway units, gateway units+robo, airtoss ... You can play Bio against Protoss in BW. But only if Protoss doesnt know you go Bio. Splash damage kills it. There are still many different kinds of mech play in TvP in BW and its generally a very enjoyable match-up. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
I know mech it's viable in BW TvP: my point is that in BW (which is very successful, and I guess everybody recognize as a very good game) not *all* styles are viable in *all* match-ups. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On January 13 2017 06:05 VHbb wrote: yeah you can also play mech in TvZ in LotV if the Zerg doesn't know you are going mech..... I know mech it's viable in BW TvP: my point is that in BW (which is very successful, and I guess everybody recognize as a very good game) not *all* styles are viable in *all* match-ups. And they shouldn't be. If everything was viable vs everything, this would be an action game, not a strategy game. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On January 13 2017 06:05 VHbb wrote: yeah you can also play mech in TvZ in LotV if the Zerg doesn't know you are going mech..... I know mech it's viable in BW TvP: my point is that in BW (which is very successful, and I guess everybody recognize as a very good game) not *all* styles are viable in *all* match-ups. Yeah but you can currently only play mech in TvT. Before the patch you could play mech in both TvT and TvZ. So this patch actually made the game less diverse, not more. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
Honestly you hear whining about mech since WoL | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 13 2017 05:00 VHbb wrote: I'm not sure why some people identify their opinions with the "community's opinions" Whining that Blizzard doesn't listen to the community because it doesn't implement *your* ideas is a bit shortsighted.. I work in a very competitive field, and I *never* see anyone addressing competitors, coworkers or people in the field with the tones used here: if I was a developer and I read only "pathetic, ridiculous, etc." addressed to me, I don't think I would read TL very often.. believe it or not, it's important to maintain a certain positivity. Not sure who your speaking to, but you can clearly tell communities opinion by polls, interviews, etc. On the topic of working in a competitive field, well look how Blizzard has acted throughout all of this. How often in competitive fields do you see the business ask for feedback from the public, and then when they receive negative feedback from the public, ask for the public to "quickly make a decision on how to repair the problem"? How often do you think competitive fields would put up with lead designers admitting to intentionally giving their software inferior design because of "perception of some people"? (not even real facts, but perception of a small % of the community) Or in competitive fields, do you think businesses would move forward with a decision that 80% of the public was very strongly against? Nothing about how they are handling SC2 is "professional" anymore. That went out the window almost 2 years ago. Wouldn't you expect a business in that position to start doing some drastic measures to get back on track? That's all that people here expect. People have seen Blizzard do that so many times in the past, from D2 to WC3 to D3 to HS, we have seen Blizzard bust their ass until things were in good shape. But SC2..... has been suffering more than any other Blizzard game in their history. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On January 13 2017 06:46 VHbb wrote: Before the patch you heard constant whining because mech was *not* viable in TvZ, so I'm not so sure.. Honestly you hear whining about mech since WoL Well mech was weak in TvZ but it was playable. Now it is compeltly useless due to Swarm Hosts. Better tanks means nothing if you can not build tanks due to Swarm Hosts. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
On January 13 2017 06:56 Spyridon wrote: Not sure who your speaking to, but you can clearly tell communities opinion by polls, interviews, etc. On the topic of working in a competitive field, well look how Blizzard has acted throughout all of this. How often in competitive fields do you see the business ask for feedback from the public, and then when they receive negative feedback from the public, ask for the public to "quickly make a decision on how to repair the problem"? How often do you think competitive fields would put up with lead designers admitting to intentionally giving their software inferior design because of "perception of some people"? (not even real facts, but perception of a small % of the community) Or in competitive fields, do you think businesses would move forward with a decision that 80% of the public was very strongly against? Nothing about how they are handling SC2 is "professional" anymore. That went out the window almost 2 years ago. Wouldn't you expect a business in that position to start doing some drastic measures to get back on track? That's all that people here expect. People have seen Blizzard do that so many times in the past, from D2 to WC3 to D3 to HS, we have seen Blizzard bust their ass until things were in good shape. But SC2..... has been suffering more than any other Blizzard game in their history. Actually I don't see many professional companies releasing games, and keep following their balance/development/etc. years after release. I don't see many companies working on unofficial forums (TL) to poll the community and release almost monthly updates. Many many other companies simply release their games, profit from their success and it's up to the players to enjoy->play the games, or simply dismiss them. So overall I'd say Blizzard is doing better than most (in this as in many other aspects) I don't think SC2 is "not on track" or it's out of the window: I think it's an amazing game, which I greatly enjoy watching and playing, and which is losing viewership due to many reasons. I don't think the mech balance or the swarmhosts are the reasons why SC2 doesn't have as many viewers as before (but this is an other topic) | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2627 Posts
On January 13 2017 06:22 InfCereal wrote: And they shouldn't be. If everything was viable vs everything, this would be an action game, not a strategy game. How does this makes any sense? So if you only have a couple of builds and a single composition you go every game where at the end is only about mechanics is a strategy game, but if you have many builds and many varied compositions that require different responses and good reading of the enemy composition is a strategy game? Thats the most backwards thinking I've seen in some time. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 13 2017 07:35 VHbb wrote: Actually I don't see many professional companies releasing games, and keep following their balance/development/etc. years after release. I don't see many companies working on unofficial forums (TL) to poll the community and release almost monthly updates. Many many other companies simply release their games, profit from their success and it's up to the players to enjoy->play the games, or simply dismiss them. So overall I'd say Blizzard is doing better than most (in this as in many other aspects) I don't think SC2 is "not on track" or it's out of the window: I think it's an amazing game, which I greatly enjoy watching and playing, and which is losing viewership due to many reasons. I don't think the mech balance or the swarmhosts are the reasons why SC2 doesn't have as many viewers as before (but this is an other topic) I think it's important to keep a distinction between companies making common games, and companies making competitive games w/ tournament scenes. Yes, Blizzard is doing more than most of the common development companies. But if we're comparing Blizzard's SC2 team to other competitive games, they are seriously lacking compared to most of them. SC2 even has a larger scene than many other tournament/eSports games, but Blizzard still puts in less work to keep that scene going strong. For a game series that is known for it's competitive scene, and at one point having the largest competitive scene out there, it's a damn shame that they are not putting SERIOUS work in to the competitive aspect of SC2. For them to put so much more development in to mission packs & coop mode, is a real waste of potential. With that said, it's awesome if your enjoying watching and playing. Wish I could say the same, but I'm more unhappy with SC2 than I ever was, and it seems the SC2 scene as a whole is suffering far more than ever before, so I'm pretty sure the general consensus is the game is lacking. And SC2 popularity in Korea is plummeting while BW is going strong - which says a lot for the state of the game as a whole. (PS: I also note that you didn't actually answer the questions I asked in previous post, and redirected them with your own. But the point of my post prior to this one is that Blizzard has not been handling the game professionally, from a development perspective to PR to a business perspective. So the point I'm making here is an extension of that - to point out that even compared to other game companies in the competitive eSports category, SC2's development is lacking.) | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
Maybe Blizzard invests in coop and mission packs because of profit, or something else, I don't know. What I know is - how much I enjoy the game has nothing to do with the viewership numbers in Korea  also, it has almost nothing to do with the fine detail of the balance of the game. I am diamond, so almost anything is viable (yes even mech) and there is really *no* reason to complain for balance- small tweaks to the game like the ones mentioned in the community updates, are not going to change the state of the game so drastically, so I'm just happy blizzard keeps looking at SC2 and trying to improve - I don't see how you can say SC2 development is lacking, since we get constant updates/changes almost monthly. SC2 is clearly not the first Blizzard priority, so I'm very happy it is looked at by Blizzard | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
But the new swarm hosts are completely and utterly game breaking against mech. I feel like i play very balanced TvZ mech games unless my opponent finds the key to build swarm hosts. Then, either you choose to turtle while being incapable to kill off the swarm hosts, which doesn't work because you have to be agressive against zerg before the T3 timing, either you choose to push out. But the fact that they're so insanely cheap and impossible to catch and kill off makes them game breaking. And i'm not even talking about late game situations where building 10 SHs while roaming with 6-8 vipers/hydras is a very simple and easy way to kill a meching terran no matter what his comp is. Even if i've got a lot of beef with units like ravens or vipers (because they force a turtly mechanic in MechVZerg), SHs are much more problematic because they pretty much singlehandedly make any attempt at playing against zerg without researching stim a lost cause. On the other side, mech versus protoss now seems to be possible with the new cyclone. If the AA was buffed a little, it may be completely viable. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On January 13 2017 11:11 JackONeill wrote: Since i started playing mech in TvZ during HOTS i've always found a way to play mech in TvZ. Even during every stage of LOTV, i still managed to get 55-60% in TvZ with mech only. Pre-3.8 patch too. But the new swarm hosts are completely and utterly game breaking against mech. I feel like i play very balanced TvZ mech games unless my opponent finds the key to build swarm hosts. Then, either you choose to turtle while being incapable to kill off the swarm hosts, which doesn't work because you have to be agressive against zerg before the T3 timing, either you choose to push out. But the fact that they're so insanely cheap and impossible to catch and kill off makes them game breaking. And i'm not even talking about late game situations where building 10 SHs while roaming with 6-8 vipers/hydras is a very simple and easy way to kill a meching terran no matter what his comp is. Even if i've got a lot of beef with units like ravens or vipers (because they force a turtly mechanic in MechVZerg), SHs are much more problematic because they pretty much singlehandedly make any attempt at playing against zerg without researching stim a lost cause. On the other side, mech versus protoss now seems to be possible with the new cyclone. If the AA was buffed a little, it may be completely viable. Well and you're part of the guys who say mech needed some buffs, because it wasn't viable ? Now you admit it was viable ? You just wanted to push your winrate from 55-60% to 70-80 % ? Pretty disgusting to see terrans like you using balance discussion for lobying, and asking to make their race stronger while you even admit it wasn't needed as your winrates were >50% When we saw all this terrans claiming : " Mech isn't viable", buff tanks, nerf vipers, etc...", they get a massive amount of buffs, and as a result balance is worst than before (specially PvT with 40%...). Now obviously you're again lobbying for nerfing another counter of your style... | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On January 13 2017 09:05 Spyridon wrote: With that said, it's awesome if your enjoying watching and playing. Wish I could say the same, but I'm more unhappy with SC2 than I ever was, and it seems the SC2 scene as a whole is suffering far more than ever before, so I'm pretty sure the general consensus is the game is lacking. And SC2 popularity in Korea is plummeting while BW is going strong - which says a lot for the state of the game as a whole. It says barely anything about how well SC2 Developed is, Remember that Korean gamers stick with games longer than any other group AFAIK. Keep in mind that arguably the biggest esports for the past 4 years (League of legends) had one of the worst clients out of all of them. Yes, Blizzard is doing more than most of the common development companies. But if we're comparing Blizzard's SC2 team to other competitive games, they are seriously lacking compared to most of them. 1) How do you know their team is smaller? To this date I have barely been able to find good information on either SC2 dev team size, or that of other games 2) Who are you comparing them to? SC2 even has a larger scene than many other tournament/eSports games, but Blizzard still puts in less work to keep that scene going strong. Which devs that have a smaller scene than SC2 put in comparable effort? I can't think of one. For a game series that is known for it's competitive scene, and at one point having the largest competitive scene out there, it's a damn shame that they are not putting SERIOUS work in to the competitive aspect of SC2. For them to put so much more development in to mission packs & coop mode, is a real waste of potential. What is still missing for the competitve scene? | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On January 13 2017 19:13 sabas123 wrote: What is still missing for the competitve scene? Spectating is the only thing I can think of. Being able to just hop in to obs a live ladder game. Other than that, SC2 has a pretty fleshed out competitive environment. Maybe could use more stats, maybe a better UI. Nothing major. | ||
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