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United States33699 Posts
Hey, remember the old days when everyone was rushing to try and get an interview with the winner of a major tournament? Let's try that again. Say hi to  Liquid`Snute, everyone.Wax: Congratulations on your victory at WCS Copa Intercontinental. How did it feel to finally take a Premier tournament for the first time since HomeStory Cup 6 in 2012?Snute: Thank you! It felt great. I also think of my win in NeoSL as a big win, so it wasn't exactly my first. How did you feel about your form going into the tournament? How much did match-up luck play into the result?Match-up luck factors in a lot, all the time. More than people think. I was able to play my current best match-up three times in a row. I'd have far more trouble in ZvZ or ZvT, for sure. Even if showing many games in one match-up would seem like a disadvantage to some, it's not much compared to being able to play a stronger match-up over and over. At least given my current skill levels. If it's another player with more even match-ups, the situation might differ. You're virtually guaranteed a spot at BlizzCon. What parts of your game do you feel like you have to work on the most in the next 1.5 months?ZvT and ZvZ need the most work. I'm not exactly bad in either match-up but they are still far behind my ZvP. I'm also in need of refining my ZvP—even if I'm like 85%-90% I still discover scenarios that bring me trouble. In ZvT and ZvZ it's a bit more broad—about scouting, replacing bad builds/styles, taking better engagements and such... ZvP is a bit more about dealing with specific parts of the strategy spectrum, since I'm a bit more skillful there now. Some pros are vocal about Korean Zergs being behind the meta, or playing certain match-ups "wrong." Do you agree, and if so, could you elaborate on what aspects Korean Zergs could improve upon?I didn't watch that many KR matches with Zerg recently, so I'm not too sure. It used to be more of a topic way back, and a lot of players thought a lot of Zerg games were either silly all-ins or lackluster defense. But the game changed a lot as well, patch and map pool wise. I don't think it's all that bad now, even if there still are some examples. If we take the some of the more recent matches, such as the Zerg Starleague matches from Ro8 onwards for example... I feel like that meta lines up quite well with the current top EU meta. With some small differences. Solar actually asked me about my ravager/ling/baneling style before his match vs. Dear, we talked a bit and he decided to use it, he even mentioned it in his winner's interview. So it's really cool when a player like Solar looks to WCS players for inspiration. I think a lot of the past complaints were about Zergs being too all-in for no apparent reason, or using the wrong compositions. I haven't seen this happen as often recently. It's a bit weird especially now since both TvZ and PvZ seem to be changing quite a bit, but the regions seem to mirror each other relatively quickly. I think I've heard "everybody's doing (this player's)(strategy/style)" more often this year than any other. So there's more cross-region inspiration and emulation going on now. There are very skillful styles and examples of play (games) originating from players from different regions. It's tough to tell, but it feels more connected now than before. I think a lot of players felt this in practice after Cyclone/Hellion hit Proleague, for example. But it usually takes a broadcast match for a strategy to make it across regions, it's rarely through advance sharing. When you went to Korea to practice with CJ briefly in 2013, did you feel you had a window of advantage because you were bringing unknown strategies/styles with you? Do you think that might help out foreigners at BlizzCon?Back then I was the top level Swarm Host player, so a lot of players on KR server weren't prepared at all, some even wrote me long lines of cursing in Korean lol. Nowadays I feel like I popularized the ravager/ling/bane style, no players were prepared for that either. But that's a bit of a different scenario, it's not exactly swarm host. I'm not sure if there are that many unknown styles left that will be as impactful as the ravager/ling/baneling trend or stuff like the double medivac stim timing variations in TvZ. It would be pretty incredible for someone to discover something that powerful and hide it until BlizzCon before someone else comes up with it, too. So I have no idea how it will play out. One major difference between KeSPA/KR and WCS is that WCS players have a massive library of offline/online match VODs available for study, KeSPA/KR players for the most part have far less material out there. But there's going to be a lot of hidden practice, and I'm sure it will mostly come down to game skill in the end. Looking at the big picture, you've ended up becoming one of the most consistently strong veterans in the entire StarCraft II scene. Is there anything special about you that let you stay in the scene for so long while continuing to put in good performances?I just practice a lot and I like to play the game and show up for tournaments... I just try to play, if not I'm still watching and studying others. I don't feel like I'm improving very fast but it's not like I'm losing a lot of skill over time either. Being able to stay in the scene and having a presence in tournaments is linked mostly to my skill level. I did decent in qualifiers and tournaments as a whole this year. And when I didn't qualify or messed up, I had Team Liquid to back me up travel wise, at least twice. Travelling to GPL in Shanghai or DH:Austin was thanks to TL. Not to mention all the support in previous years. You've been around StarCraft II forever, and seen the foreign scene in many different states. What do you think defines the foreign scene of 2016, compared to all the other years?A bit more chaos in terms of results, thanks to the single-elimination Ro32 format. A lot of retirements and some new talent. But also a lot of players that are trying harder. I think that the skill gap grew a bit between foreigners. The very top, say 1-10, seem further ahead from the rest than before. And they also closed in a little on the Korean skill level, I think. I'm not sure what to attribute this to, if it's LOTV or if it's just foreigners trying harder thanks to the WCS system. But on average, I think that the skill level outside of Korea increased, and that gameplay quality is a bit higher. A lot of pros say that foreigners are better than ever in 2016. Do you agree? Do you think the mindset/professionalism of pros has improved compared to previous years?I think the level of play has increased. Mindset and professionalism has probably improved in the sense that players are practicing more and are trying harder.
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TLADT24920 Posts
That title lol, good interview 
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Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules?
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All hail the Swarm Host King !
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United States33699 Posts
On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules?
I DON'T KNOW, LET'S ASK UTHERMAL
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On September 21 2016 04:26 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? I DON'T KNOW, LET'S ASK UTHERMAL
OR NERCHIO
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On September 21 2016 04:29 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:26 Waxangel wrote:On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? I DON'T KNOW, LET'S ASK UTHERMAL OR NERCHIO
OR REDDIT!
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Awesome sombrero
Great win Snute, congrats!
Hope you liked our country!
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On September 21 2016 04:29 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:26 Waxangel wrote:On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? I DON'T KNOW, LET'S ASK UTHERMAL OR NERCHIO
LOL <3.
Good read, thanks Wax . I've always loved Snute for his calm, patient play. I'm glad to read what he has to say about the state of the scene in 2016.
I too, think it would be incredible to see a WCS contender play a new style saved in their back pocket! Snute has already broken the ladder several times  .
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On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules?
But how do we really know they're playing (significantly) better?
They do not play Koreans, offline
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On September 21 2016 05:02 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? But how do we really know they're playing (significantly) better? They do not play Koreans, offline
No, let's ask foreign pros with their obvious bias.
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Nice interview from Snute, I really hope we can watch awesome games at Blizzcon matching Foreigners vs Koreans and not getting REKT.
Best of lucks to Snute and Nerchio specially!
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On September 21 2016 05:10 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:02 Penev wrote:On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? But how do we really know they're playing (significantly) better? They do not play Koreans, offline No, let's ask foreign pros with their obvious bias.
no lets ask low diamond shitters on TL who like it when their own scene is dying :D
ontopic: great interview. Promising to see snute with a good mindset for blizzcon!
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On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? Players look better when they play worse opposition? Wow, what an amazing fact! We really need a comprehensive study for this one.
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On September 21 2016 05:22 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:10 plogamer wrote:On September 21 2016 05:02 Penev wrote:On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? But how do we really know they're playing (significantly) better? They do not play Koreans, offline No, let's ask foreign pros with their obvious bias. no lets ask low diamond shitters on TL who like it when their own scene is dying :D ontopic: great interview. Promising to see snute with a good mindset for blizzcon!
In this case it doesn't really matter that much, if we ask diamonds or pro's, we'll have to wait for KeSPA Cup and Blizzcon to get any real indication.
I think it would be great if foreigners actually did close the gap significantly btw
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Foreigners vs Koreans is a funny battle where only foreigneirs know they are fighting
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No foreigner-crushing-Koreans clickbait title to invite hate? Such TL bias!
Great interview. I agree with the title, of course. Snute really said "smart stuff". He doesn't make too many assumptions (e.g. foreigners are practising harder - full stop, no need to go as far as to speculate about other people's motivational drives). He's also humble enough to admit uncertainty as to what has changed in 2016 (e.g. is it more due to the newness and quirks of LOTV, or the WCS system).
Maybe his interview isn't as colourful and controversial as some of the rest. But I'll take substance over style any day.
Go Snute!
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Arsenal looked great against Nottingham Forest today.
Title contenders for sure!
*rolls eyes.
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Impossible not to like Snute the faceless Korean.
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Time to teach those koreans how to zerg.
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Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year.
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On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year.
Well I don't think you'll have to worry about being disappointed because the majority (that I've seen) on teamliquid believe that foreigners are some between worse or much worse than either all Koreans or the higher code s Koreans.
A number of posters (that I've seen) who support the WCS scene are mildly optimistic about foreigner vs Korean chances. Opinions do vary, but I think from our point of view it is that foreigners have improved, but they're still not at the level of ro16 Code S Koreans. Personally, I do believe that the gap is not as big as people might think.
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On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year.
In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so...
I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon.
It's been a strange year, to say the least.
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Good interview, glad they're coming back more.
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On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least.
I personally believe the average skill gap is narrower than ever, if we exclude the very beginning of SC2 scene, due to the declining Korean SC2 programing.
Their youngest progamer was born in 97, I think? They don't have new bloods as it is and almost all new talented gamers play LoL or Overwatch. I think WCS change has hit a nail in the coffin, and it is only a matter of time before the skill gap becomes very close since Korean SC2 scene will keep shrieking if some measure is not taken to revive it.
I'm just curious if that gap closing would be this year, or if we have to wait another year.
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There was a Korean amateur teamleague announced recently which sounded cool, I guess that's something.
Are there still online weeklies in Korea like the ESV or have they died out? Sounds like investing in that kind of tourneys would be pretty decent.
I'm an old curmudgeon when it comes to the foreigners v. Koreans discussion. I'll watch the games and come to my conclusions instead of making myself look silly with predictions.
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Congrats Snute! Congrats on winning COPA.
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On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least.
maybe someone on TL made a proper analysis already, but imo TRUE won summer with a tornado style, just being ultra-agressive when no one could adapt quickly.
He lost quite a few games after that, so i wouldn't just explain his win by a general skill margin. He won that one with specific builds and excellent execution.
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On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year.
Lilbow himself admitted he didn't even practice HotS after his WCS Season 3 win and that he only played LotV during that time(he also claimed that no one was playing HotS, and TLO called that out saying people offered to practice with him for Blizzcon). He also got full of himself and at the same time lost the drive to practice the game(cause he already won what he wanted, remember?). That specific situation wasn't so simple as 'Life was just better'(which he was, let's be fair), but if the foreigner protoss with the style that was really difficult to deal with as zerg didn't even practice for his match nor was nearly as motivated to practice for it, I think you can see that narrowed his chances of success immensely.
IMO the only thing one should be disappointed in here is that Lilbow was a moron.
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On September 21 2016 06:05 Argonauta wrote:
Foreigners vs Koreans is a funny battle where only foreigneirs know they are fighting
already back in WoL koreans came together to help out those who were playing against foreigners, so im not sure what youre talking about.
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On September 21 2016 15:25 herMan wrote:
There was a Korean amateur teamleague announced recently which sounded cool, I guess that's something.
Are there still online weeklies in Korea like the ESV or have they died out? Sounds like investing in that kind of tourneys would be pretty decent.
I'm an old curmudgeon when it comes to the foreigners v. Koreans discussion. I'll watch the games and come to my conclusions instead of making myself look silly with predictions.
 OlimoLeague is currently the weekly tourney in Korea, I believe Canata organizes some small tournament/league as well.
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On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least.
This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly).
About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong
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On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong
And why Neeb over uThermal or Marinelord ?
He did not really achieve more than both of them
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Really love the interviews recently, although I have to say I would be most interested to hear from Neeb and TRUE who also both qualified for KeSPA Cup.
I would love to hear what TRUE thinks about WCS and foreigners as a player who played GSL and WCS this year.
His thoughts about the scene and his struggle with getting a visa would be very interesting.
Neebs thoughts on foreigners, koreans and the scene as a player who practices and lives in Korea but plays WCS would also be great to know. How did he adjust to Korea, how does his practice look now, for how long will he stay, does he think you can't be the best if you don't live in Korea? Lots of questions  .
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A lot of pros say that foreigners are better than ever in 2016. Do you agree? Do you think the mindset/professionalism of pros has improved compared to previous years?
I think the level of play has increased. Mindset and professionalism has probably improved in the sense that players are practicing more and are trying harder.
Yeah... probably the result of the new WCS regional lock system. I know I would definitely be more motivated...
GO SNUTE.
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On September 21 2016 22:40 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong And why Neeb over uThermal or Marinelord ? He did not really achieve more than both of them
Overall no, but this year he's been way more consistent than either of them. Remember how uThermal won 4-2 against Neeb? Neeb followed that up with a 3-1 and a 3-0 win against uThermal. Even by looking at the WCS points he is tied for 3rd while they are not even qualified.
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On September 22 2016 00:09 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 22:40 Ppjack wrote:On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong And why Neeb over uThermal or Marinelord ? He did not really achieve more than both of them Overall no, but this year he's been way more consistent than either of them. Remember how uThermal won 4-2 against Neeb? Neeb followed that up with a 3-1 and a 3-0 win against uThermal. Even by looking at the WCS points he is tied for 3rd while they are not even qualified.
Yes uthermal had very good performances this year but overall Neeb seemed to be a lot more consistent in doing so. And consistency is key. I also mentioned that foreign terrans did some impressive stuff, but to be considered a real top player you have to repeat success. And this consistency is what foreign terrans never achieved while people like Stephano or Naniwa managed to stay relevant for a longer period of time.
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On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong
In my opinion, even though I don't play Terran, I believe Terran is by far the hardest race to play BUT they have the most potential. That's why in BW, foreign terrans and ICCUP was mostly Protoss and Zerg. Even when BW was in its infancy, a lot of people thought that Terran was UP, that is... until the Terran Bonjwas showed them how to bunker rush and play Terran. I believe this same rule applies to SC2. This is why I think Blizzard has a hard time buffing Terran. On the one hand, buffing Terran will completely destroy the game at the highest level because Korean Terrans would just wreck everyone, on the other hand, nerfing Terran will destroy the lower levels and cause Terran to underperform in lower leagues.
However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good .
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On September 21 2016 05:22 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:10 plogamer wrote:On September 21 2016 05:02 Penev wrote:On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? But how do we really know they're playing (significantly) better? They do not play Koreans, offline No, let's ask foreign pros with their obvious bias. no lets ask low diamond shitters on TL who like it when their own scene is dying :D ontopic: great interview. Promising to see snute with a good mindset for blizzcon!
The topic of the quoted discussion was around the issue of foreign vs Korean skill, how we can get a measure of it, and the effect of the new WCS system.
Given my full time study in a highly competitive field and part time job, happy to be a diamond "shitter".
If the scene is largely dominated by people like you, I can see why it's dying.
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On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly).
Neeb was an average NA terran for a long time, he sure as hell made a great career choice to switch Lol.
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On September 22 2016 01:25 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good .
Uthermal and MarineLord aren't bad but they aren't outstanding. I can't imagine either of them winning a long series against Snute or Neeb, let alone top Koreans. As others have said, KR vs foreign Terran is always gonna be the biggest gap.
Also, hats off to Snute for a smart imput instead of a Forigners vs Koreans bait
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I think there's still a gap in skill level but it's getting closer not due to efforts of the foreigners but because of a lack of efforts from the Koreans. I think the current system is demotivating them.
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United States33699 Posts
hey I didn't even ask about the foreigner-korea gap but here we are anyway :D
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On September 22 2016 03:22 Waxangel wrote:
hey I didn't even ask about the foreigner-korea gap but here we are anyway :D
Please go and ask TRUE about it .
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On September 22 2016 02:50 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 01:25 phodacbiet wrote:On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good . Uthermal and MarineLord aren't bad but they aren't outstanding. I can't imagine either of them winning a long series against Snute or Neeb, let alone top Koreans. As others have said, KR vs foreign Terran is always gonna be the biggest gap. Also, hats off to Snute for a smart imput instead of a Forigners vs Koreans bait
uThermal beat Neeb in the finals of IEM Shanghai. I'd consider Bo7 to be a long series
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On September 22 2016 03:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 02:50 Fango wrote:On September 22 2016 01:25 phodacbiet wrote:On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good . Uthermal and MarineLord aren't bad but they aren't outstanding. I can't imagine either of them winning a long series against Snute or Neeb, let alone top Koreans. As others have said, KR vs foreign Terran is always gonna be the biggest gap. Also, hats off to Snute for a smart imput instead of a Forigners vs Koreans bait uThermal beat Neeb in the finals of IEM Shanghai. I'd consider Bo7 to be a long series
I didn't say it would never happen, but I'd never favour them in a series tbh
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On September 22 2016 03:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 02:50 Fango wrote:On September 22 2016 01:25 phodacbiet wrote:On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good . Uthermal and MarineLord aren't bad but they aren't outstanding. I can't imagine either of them winning a long series against Snute or Neeb, let alone top Koreans. As others have said, KR vs foreign Terran is always gonna be the biggest gap. Also, hats off to Snute for a smart imput instead of a Forigners vs Koreans bait uThermal beat Neeb in the finals of IEM Shanghai. I'd consider Bo7 to be a long series
Well first, I remember Neeb to be an up and coming Terran who had pretty good micro.
And for the series, Neeb played rather sub-par in the series. It wasn't as much the fact that uThermal made him play poorly but that relative to how Neeb had played prior in the tournament, his performance in the finals was poor. Not to say that uThermal didn't play quite well, but the thing to remember is that in their next two tournament meetings, Neeb crushed him. In the Copa Intercontinental tournament, the first two games weren't really all that close.
I think it's becoming a curse. You never want to beat Neeb in an offline tournament finals or he will crush you on your next subsequent meetings...
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On September 22 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 03:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On September 22 2016 02:50 Fango wrote:On September 22 2016 01:25 phodacbiet wrote:On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good . Uthermal and MarineLord aren't bad but they aren't outstanding. I can't imagine either of them winning a long series against Snute or Neeb, let alone top Koreans. As others have said, KR vs foreign Terran is always gonna be the biggest gap. Also, hats off to Snute for a smart imput instead of a Forigners vs Koreans bait uThermal beat Neeb in the finals of IEM Shanghai. I'd consider Bo7 to be a long series Well first, I remember Neeb to be an up and coming Terran who had pretty good micro. And for the series, Neeb played rather sub-par in the series. It wasn't as much the fact that uThermal made him play poorly but that relative to how Neeb had played prior in the tournament, his performance in the finals was poor. Not to say that uThermal didn't play quite well, but the thing to remember is that in their next two tournament meetings, Neeb crushed him. In the Copa Intercontinental tournament, the first two games weren't really all that close. I think it's becoming a curse. You never want to beat Neeb in an offline tournament finals or he will crush you on your next subsequent meetings...
Go Neeb vs Byun finals somehow so Neeb can crush Byun at Blizzcon
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On September 22 2016 02:24 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:22 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On September 21 2016 05:10 plogamer wrote:On September 21 2016 05:02 Penev wrote:On September 21 2016 04:22 lost_patrol wrote:
Interesting that foreigners are playing better when they're not constantly getting crushed by 16 Koreans per tournament. What does that tell us about the new WCS rules? But how do we really know they're playing (significantly) better? They do not play Koreans, offline No, let's ask foreign pros with their obvious bias. no lets ask low diamond shitters on TL who like it when their own scene is dying :D ontopic: great interview. Promising to see snute with a good mindset for blizzcon! The topic of the quoted discussion was around the issue of foreign vs Korean skill, how we can get a measure of it, and the effect of the new WCS system. Given my full time study in a highly competitive field and part time job, happy to be a diamond "shitter". If the scene is largely dominated by people like you, I can see why it's dying.
ok
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On September 22 2016 03:28 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 03:22 Waxangel wrote:
hey I didn't even ask about the foreigner-korea gap but here we are anyway :D Please go and ask TRUE about it .
He's gonna kill it in his all Korean group, so don't bother..
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On September 22 2016 04:02 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 03:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On September 22 2016 02:50 Fango wrote:On September 22 2016 01:25 phodacbiet wrote:On September 21 2016 22:05 Eiltonn wrote:On September 21 2016 12:39 breaker1328 wrote:On September 21 2016 09:18 highsis wrote:
Recent Foreigner vs Korean controversy reminds me of the last year.
I'd read several comments on TL claiming that 'European style protoss is impossible to defeat even for Korean zergs' so I was looking forward to Life vs Lilbow, and then... Let's just say I was more than disappointed.
I hope this doesn't happen this year. In my amateur opinion, the largest skill gap is between foreigner Terran when compared to korean Terran. As far as the meta is concerned, it depends on the player. Neeb beat a bunch of korean Terran online and Snute beat Zest when Zest was performing his best in season 1 this year but then TRUE came over and won the Summer championship so... I think with the two scenes being so disconnected it will come down to which one has figured out the game better. We basically just have to wait for the kespa cup to get an idea of how blizzcon is going to go. Not to mention that some of the players that didn't qualify for the kespa cup are still going to blizzcon. It's been a strange year, to say the least. This is how it always was tho. The biggest gap between foreigners and Koreans has always been with Terran players. I am sure many will disagree but i drew at some point the conclusion that terran is less forgiving or in some aspect a little harder to play at the higher levels. To me its kinda proof that the greatest foreigners in SC2s history are exclusively Zerg and Protoss, while the greatest foreign Terrans never reached their height or an equal period of dominance. For reference check the WCS standings. Only Terran in The top 8 is Polt and he isnt even a foreigner in the first place. Currently outstanding foreigners are people like Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute. Again no Terran (sadly). About the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.I dont follow the foreign scene in sufficient detail so i cannot produce a solid argument. My money is still on the koreans tho until foreigners prove me wrong However, in your statement that the only outstanding foreigners are "Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio and Snute," I think you left out Uthermal and MarineLord. Both of those guys are pretty good . Uthermal and MarineLord aren't bad but they aren't outstanding. I can't imagine either of them winning a long series against Snute or Neeb, let alone top Koreans. As others have said, KR vs foreign Terran is always gonna be the biggest gap. Also, hats off to Snute for a smart imput instead of a Forigners vs Koreans bait uThermal beat Neeb in the finals of IEM Shanghai. I'd consider Bo7 to be a long series I didn't say it would never happen, but I'd never favour them in a series tbh
Marinelord did 3-0 Neeb in semi finals last time they played in a big tournament
uThermal did win the final at IEM against Neeb too
I don't say i'd favor them either, i just want to point out that we have two immensively talented terrans consired as top foreigners. Even though they are more inconsistent than other foreigners of other races
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Great picture. Snute is the one guy who's not afraid to take it to the macro game vs the best Koreans. That's why he's so good.
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EPT
Wax: Congratulations on your victory at WCS Copa Intercontinental. How did it feel to finally take a Premier tournament for the first time since HomeStory Cup 6 in 2012?
