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On September 03 2016 07:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 06:42 Teoita wrote:
I hate the nerf to shade vision because it removes the adept's scouting and doens't do that much for jumping adepts between mineral lines in the midgame. I'd prefer a shade cooldown nerf. Agreed. Blizzard tries too hard at preserving what they think is cool about the unit, instead of addressing the root problem. Same thing with the warp prism. It's the pick up range that's the problem, an hp nerf only makes the unit more coin-flippy.
Sure, like the mass liberator problem? but no terran see there a problem where mass liberator is viable vs protoss.
Like polt build 5 liberator at 1 time.
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On September 03 2016 07:35 Loccstana wrote:
Warp prisms should be able to destroyed in one shot by widow mines.
Thats the dumpest think i hear in a while, its even more dumb as widow mines kill oracles with one shot.
User was warned for this post
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On September 03 2016 06:57 yolteotl wrote:
Why not reducing the shade vision constantly over the time, from 9 to 2?
yeah that would be cool 
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It only makes sense to nerf shade cooldown. Not vision.
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On September 03 2016 07:28 -HuShang- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 07:16 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 03 2016 06:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't like the adept vision nerf because it makes shading quite coinflippy because you don't know if you're shading near banelings or something.
HP nerf/shade cooldown change/DPS nerf would be better.
Doesn't that mean you need skill using the shade? With a vision of 2, you don't know if the base you are shading to will have reinforcements or not. The only way you will know is if you have an observer. And that is a good thing. I personally think the vision change will make Adepts much less powerful in lesser players, but better players will still excel. I think it just makes things more gimicky tbh. For example: PvZ you usually shade with your adept into their base to see if they're all inning but now you prob won't see their tech with the lower vision. Or the zerg just hides their units so when you shade in they surround them and they all die. I'm not sure what kind of skill will be added. Just more gimicky games. Banshee speed is silly too.
So you're saying the Adept can't be used to scout? But Protoss never needed another scouting tool. They have observers (arguably the best scout) and hallucinate phoenix. Not to mention the Oracle and real pheonix are great scouts.
Are you also saying the Adept will be harder to use? Because if you are, than I view that as a very good thing.
I really don't see it as being gimmicky (whatever that really means). I think this change is a good thing. Honestly, maybe 2 vision is a bit much, and 3 would be a good number.
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"Mech is too strong" Already saying that, it doesn't make sense.
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Don't overnerf mech again pls!
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Blizzard once again shows lack of understanding. More scouting options is never bad in an RTS game. The more you have of it, the less luck there is. The problem they want to solve is free scouting. By introducing cooldown to adepts, they can solve this problem. Either way, balance changes so far don't make me come back to SC2 and play like before. I know it's too early to tell, but we'll see.
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On September 03 2016 07:59 Shield wrote:
Blizzard once again shows lack of understanding. More scouting options is never bad in an RTS game. The more you have of it, the less luck there is. The problem they want to solve is free scouting. By introducing cooldown to adepts, they can solve this problem. Either way, balance changes so far don't make me come back to SC2 and play like before. I know it's too early to tell, but we'll see.
Are you saying Protoss lacks scouting tools, so they need more? Because I will have to disagree. One of the problems with Adepts is they can safely complete the shade whenever and wherever they want to. By limiting the vision, it increases the risk of using the Adept's shade, and reducing the risk requires an observer.
This also makes Adept harassment more difficult, which again is a good thing.
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a few Banshees can be a late game harrasser i guess.
On September 03 2016 07:59 Shield wrote:
Blizzard once again shows lack of understanding. More scouting options is never bad in an RTS game. The more you have of it, the less luck there is.
let's just remove fog of war then eh?
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On September 03 2016 08:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:a few Banshees can be a late game harrasser i guess. Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 07:59 Shield wrote:
Blizzard once again shows lack of understanding. More scouting options is never bad in an RTS game. The more you have of it, the less luck there is. let's just remove fog of war then eh?
And you come back to the 'free scouting' problem then. When did I say free scouting is a good idea?
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 03 2016 07:49 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 07:28 -HuShang- wrote:On September 03 2016 07:16 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 03 2016 06:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't like the adept vision nerf because it makes shading quite coinflippy because you don't know if you're shading near banelings or something.
HP nerf/shade cooldown change/DPS nerf would be better.
Doesn't that mean you need skill using the shade? With a vision of 2, you don't know if the base you are shading to will have reinforcements or not. The only way you will know is if you have an observer. And that is a good thing. I personally think the vision change will make Adepts much less powerful in lesser players, but better players will still excel. I think it just makes things more gimicky tbh. For example: PvZ you usually shade with your adept into their base to see if they're all inning but now you prob won't see their tech with the lower vision. Or the zerg just hides their units so when you shade in they surround them and they all die. I'm not sure what kind of skill will be added. Just more gimicky games. Banshee speed is silly too. So you're saying the Adept can't be used to scout? But Protoss never needed another scouting tool. They have observers (arguably the best scout) and hallucinate phoenix. Not to mention the Oracle and real pheonix are great scouts.
None of the scouting tools you list are available in the early game, which is when shading in for info is so crucial. With a lower vision range you will just hope that the one shade scout you get (because if a Zerg opens with a standard gas timing, you can only scout with the shade once before needing to retreat) magically reveals his drone count, gas mining AND tech, which is impossible unless the Zerg fucks up and builds anything he might be allining with next to his extractor.
On September 03 2016 08:06 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
This also makes Adept harassment more difficult, which again is a good thing.
No it doesn't. Adepts will still shade between mineral lines exactly like they do now, because if there are enough units closing in to be threatening to the adepts, you'll just gamble and hope there is less shit in the next mineral line. If there yes, yay, harassment continues, if there isn't, tough shit your adepts were dead anyway.
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On September 03 2016 05:57 Creager wrote:http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20748944933Other areas we’re exploring: 1. Health reduction to Warp Prism. 2. Mech is too strong right now. a. We’ve been hearing your feedback on this. b. We can approach this from many different angles, such as: the Siege Tank buff may have been slightly too much, or maybe we’ve touched too many units overall. c. While we’re still not certain that this is a big issue and we’d like to have more games played before making a call, it would be great to discuss this further. [/QUOTE]
1. Maybe
2. No
a. ok
b. No
c. ok
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On September 03 2016 06:57 yolteotl wrote:
Why not reducing the shade vision constantly over the time, from 9 to 2?
I think this is going into the right direction, as it would still lets you scout to a certain degree and allows you to estimate if you want to continue the shading or if you want to abort it.
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Just make it so siege tanks don't one shot zerglings (30 + 40 should be good) and I think we're good. Also, please for the love of SC put the siege mode upgrade back into the game or something @@.
And I definitely don't think that ravagers should be armored, or else we're never going to see them at all in SC2 (the other races have great answers to armored units from Zerg, and with the rise of the turbo tank an armored ravager will be virtually unusable).
Tanks definitely shouldn't go live with this kind of strength without some sort of penalty. Zerg are just not going to be able to fight around that kind of mech army without doing cheese strats, broodlord deathballs, or dumb, awkward feeling anti-mech play. So please Blizzard tune them appropriately so we can do some sort of swarm style play against mech instead of what we saw during the final days of HotS.
Warp prisms don't need ANOTHER HP reduction! Please just tone down their speed and pick up range...or just make the warp mode transformation take longer...
I think that adepts should not be allowed to cancel their shades once used. This vision change is going in the right direction, but is still not enough. It's not going to change whether or not Protoss shade around between mineral lines...it just makes it a complete gamble.
A change like preventing shade cancel would force Protoss players to think a bit more before committing their shades to harassment and would mean that adepts could keep their low shade cooldown.
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On September 03 2016 08:15 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 07:49 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 03 2016 07:28 -HuShang- wrote:On September 03 2016 07:16 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On September 03 2016 06:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't like the adept vision nerf because it makes shading quite coinflippy because you don't know if you're shading near banelings or something.
HP nerf/shade cooldown change/DPS nerf would be better.
Doesn't that mean you need skill using the shade? With a vision of 2, you don't know if the base you are shading to will have reinforcements or not. The only way you will know is if you have an observer. And that is a good thing. I personally think the vision change will make Adepts much less powerful in lesser players, but better players will still excel. I think it just makes things more gimicky tbh. For example: PvZ you usually shade with your adept into their base to see if they're all inning but now you prob won't see their tech with the lower vision. Or the zerg just hides their units so when you shade in they surround them and they all die. I'm not sure what kind of skill will be added. Just more gimicky games. Banshee speed is silly too. So you're saying the Adept can't be used to scout? But Protoss never needed another scouting tool. They have observers (arguably the best scout) and hallucinate phoenix. Not to mention the Oracle and real pheonix are great scouts. None of the scouting tools you list are available in the early game, which is when shading in for info is so crucial. With a lower vision range you will just hope that the one shade scout you get (because if a Zerg opens with a standard gas timing, you can only scout with the shade once before needing to retreat) magically reveals his drone count, gas mining AND tech, which is impossible unless the Zerg fucks up and builds anything he might be allining with next to his extractor. Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 08:06 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
This also makes Adept harassment more difficult, which again is a good thing. No it doesn't. Adepts will still shade between mineral lines exactly like they do now, because if there are enough units closing in to be threatening to the adepts, you'll just gamble and hope there is less shit in the next mineral line. If there yes, yay, harassment continues, if there isn't, tough shit your adepts were dead anyway.
That's exactly my point, information is crucial. Reducing the vision will increase the difficulty of using them.
And if Protoss just starts gambling with the Adepts, they will reduce their chances of winning. Do you think Polt just drops anywhere by gambling? Do they decide to take engagements randomly without knowing if they will take a favourable fight? By reducing the vision, you force protoss to be more mindful of where they decide to shade. This will make Adept all in much more difficult.
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It seems all those who were screaming that mech should never ever be viable were heard.
Apparently mech is 'too strong' on the test map, for some reason.
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On September 03 2016 07:35 Loccstana wrote:
Warp prisms should be able to destroyed in one shot by widow mines.
And Medivacs should be destroyed in one shot by pylons. I mean, why not right? It's what I feel, so therefore it must be correct.
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Vision nerf is huge in early stage when you only have 1-2 adept but it doesn't change much in high number anyway.
Protoss can split multiple adepts to gain almost same scout information so yeah vision nerf makes no sense.
DKIM heavily implied that he won't touch tank's damage even its way tooo strong,no point to overreact about that.
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NO BLIZZ DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE REVERT THE SIEGE TANK BUFF
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EPT
