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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
Mech will be viable Blizzard posted it that they will Change the game the only question is how strong mech will be. You have no clue of the game because Terran is very onesided to Play at the Moment. Even Blizzard noticed it. Guys deal with it Mech will be a viable style because Terran has a lag of strategies compared to the other races! | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
Well yes zerg Plays 80% hatcherey Units but hats not the point the strategies and playstyles are more diverde then Terran because zerg has more different possible core Units. And yes also Protoss has 80% Gateway Units very often but he has more Options for core Units also sky terran has no Chance against sky toss....... And pls remember that there is a different design for all races so a factory based mech style for Terran should be possible and Blizzard tries to achieve this to create more diversity. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
I tell you what, all these proposed changes, either they make mech viable or not, are not gonna change shit in terms of SC2 popularity nor attract any new players, including most "vocal" mech lobbyists here. Let me remind you, the last time big changes happened to the game (lotv) (and even thought, lets be honest, that changes were positive) the playersbase shrinked by 50%. Now you are promoting another major patch all acting like you've got years of gamedesign under the belt (avilo is ofc the most talented one). All i want to ask: are you doing this for lulz? Or you are going to actually play the fcking game after the patch? Cause statistics makes me doubt you will. The reasoning beyond this is hilarious as well. BW Terrans have the only working composition in most MUs, their whole arsenal is limited to 7-8 units. Same for other races. Do they complain about the game not being fun? Are they bored playing the same comp every single game for 17 years? I guess we just got different understanding of "fun". For me fun is pushing my limits in RTS, accumulating experience and knowledge, while for some people, it looks like, fun is an everlasting search for an excuse of them not willing to play the game/being bad at it. But the truth is "mech viability" won't solve their problems but instead will again drive off people who actually spent thousands of hours learning the game only to realise they need to start once again from scratch (it's an obvious over exaggeration, the changes are not that crucial but still the idea is there). Tldr: Leave this game alone. Stop redesigning it. Play it. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On September 08 2016 20:23 insitelol wrote: Sorry , but i can't take you seriously guys when you flood these forums with things like "omg make mech viable", "terran needs more working compositions" while "backing this up" with "complex analysis". "It's not fun to play bio every MU" or "i'm not playing this game only because of that". I tell you what, all these proposed changes, either they make mech viable or not, are not gonna change shit in terms of SC2 popularity nor attract any new players, including most "vocal" mech lobbyists here. Let me remind you, the last time big changes happened to the game (lotv) (and even thought, lets be honest, that changes were positive) the playersbase shrinked by 50%. Now you are promoting another major patch all acting like you've got years of gamedesign under the belt (avilo is ofc the most talented one). All i want to ask: are you doing this for lulz? Or you are going to actually play the fcking game after the patch? Cause statistics makes me doubt you will. The reasoning beyond this is hilarious as well. BW Terrans have the only working composition in most MUs, their whole arsenal is limited to 7-8 units. Same for other races. Do they complain about the game not being fun? Are they bored playing the same comp every single game for 17 years? I guess we just got different understanding of "fun". For me fun is pushing my limits in RTS, accumulating experience and knowledge, while for some people, it looks like, fun is an everlasting search for an excuse of them not willing to play the game/being bad at it. But the truth is "mech viability" won't solve their problems but instead will again drive off people who actually spent thousands of hours learning the game only to realise they need to start once again from scratch (it's an obvious over exaggeration, the changes are not that crucial but still the idea is there). Tldr: Leave this game alone. Stop redesigning it. Play it. Well, in BW we had bio in TvZ and Mech in TvP/TvT. So, it was more diverse as a whole. What I don't understand though is why are some people so invested in making sure MECH IS NOT VIABLE. Did you guys hate mech in BW? What is it really? Why is it so important that a composition is not viable to another race? They are also trying to make hydra/lings/infestors viable in this new patch, do you see anyone here crying that hydras should be kept bad? | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 08 2016 20:43 petro1987 wrote: Well, in BW we had bio in TvZ and Mech in TvP/TvT. So, it was more diverse as a whole. What I don't understand though is why are some people so invested in making sure MECH IS NOT VIABLE. Did you guys hate mech in BW? What is it really? Why is it so important that a composition is not viable to another race? They are also trying to make hydra/lings/infestors viable in this new patch, do you see anyone here crying that hydras should be kept bad? I'm not against mech, i'm against unreasoned, absolutely unnecessary drastic changes to gameplay. It scares off dedicated players. That's my point. But what's even worse, it seems that blizzard is driven by panic these days as the state of SC2 is getting worse with every month. Thier actions got no logic/consistency or masterplan behind them. They are random. Few months ago there was a constant weekly discussion about the current state of the game, there were lots of proposals (coming from blizzard) on how to fix the balance, tweaking liberator/muta/adept etc. But then all of a sudden blizzard stopped any communtication. Then DK jumps out of nowhere and is like: "We are gonna change the shit out this game again!!!". And everyone is like: "Hooray!!! It's so much fun!". And speaking about mech, well can't you understand why people don't wana play against a ground/air untouchable deathball slowly approaching your bases? Because that's how mech is supposed to work in SC2. There is no other way. And you call this fun? And skill? Broodlord infestor not fun. SH not fun. Protoss deathballs not fun. But if its Terran its fun! | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
You are wrong. The gameplay of Lotv is very poor for Terran. The game Needs Major changes to be inproved. We had a good beta but Blizzard nerved mech into the ground (it wa mobile mech cylcone hellion not deathball). If you buff mech it is not a Deatball it can be played agressive because you dont have to turtle. Sorry but you have no clue about what you are talking. I say it again we will get mech as a playstyle it is good for diversity and fun for palying the game for all races. Deal with it mech will be a viable playstyle so terran has more options! | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On September 08 2016 21:00 insitelol wrote: I'm not against mech, i'm against unreasoned, absolutely unnecessary drastic changes to gameplay. It scares off dedicated players. That's my point. But what's even worse, it seems that blizzard is driven by panic these days as the state of SC2 is getting worse with every month. Thier actions got no logic/consistency or masterplan behind them. They are random. Few months ago there was a constant weekly discussion about the current state of the game, there were lots of proposals (coming from blizzard) on how to fix the balance, tweaking liberator/muta/adept etc. But then all of a sudden blizzard stopped any communtication. Then DK jumps out of nowhere and is like: "We are gonna change the shit out this game again!!!". And everyone is like: "Hooray!!! It's so much fun!". And speaking about mech, well can't you understand why people don't wana play against a ground/air untouchable deathball slowly approaching your bases? Because that's how mech is supposed to work in SC2. There is no other way. And you call this fun? And skill? Broodlord infestor not fun. SH not fun. Protoss deathballs not fun. But if its Terran its fun! Why do you think mech is supposed to be a "ground/air untouchable deathball"? Do you think it was like that in BW? Why can't mech in SC2 be more like mech in BW? Isn't that what people have been wanting for years now? Isn't that the whole point of this discussion? Now, if you said you hate mech in BW, I would understand why you wouldn't want mech in SC2. But it seems you are OK with that in BW, so I just don't understand. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
Hey and i play SC II nearly everey day on ladder. And many terran Players left because Blizzard didnt do a redisign as they promised. Look HTO Mario Ruff and so on are verey unhapppy with the game. It is not fun to paly biostyle in everey fucking matchup. TvT is a mess because of stupid Tankivacs Zerg and protss have way more playstyles core units and lategame Options Terran design is very verry poor at the moment. And dont tell me that i dont know anything about gamedesign i play starcraft since i was 14 yeas old now im 35. At least i know what is fun to play and what not (i play only Terran on ladder). And by the way im Diamond 2 with mech only so at least i have a bit skill. Lotv did good changes economey wise but Terran gameplay is so bad if you compare it to the other episodes of starcraft. Believe we will get our changes. Blizzard wont step back gameplay for terran will change because its a broken mess and Blizzard relized it. This games Needs Major and drastic changes to stay fresh. Also some Players will comeback. Many left because Blizzard didnt hold theri promise foe mech viability. Now this will Change and some Players will comeback. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 08 2016 21:12 AlphaAeffchen wrote: If you buff mech it is not a Deatball it can be played agressive because you dont have to turtle. Sorry but you have no clue about what you are talking. I guess you know what are talking about. With tank's damage being buffed by 40% and removal of tankivacs. For sure these changes do not promote turtling. They are meant for agressive play. On September 08 2016 21:12 AlphaAeffchen wrote: I say it again we will get mech as a playstyle it is good for diversity and fun for palying the game for all races. Undeniable arguments. "I think "X" is good. and fun. "Y" is not. You don't know what are you talking about". And add something about diversity. It always works. Why would people do not like diversity. On September 08 2016 21:24 AlphaAeffchen wrote: And dont tell me that i dont know anything about gamedesign How did i dare? I beg my apologies! On September 08 2016 21:24 AlphaAeffchen wrote: At least i know what is fun to play and what not (i play only Terran on ladder). That explains a lot. You play only terran on ladder. You got a masters degree in "FUN" (or is it diamond?) . On September 08 2016 21:24 AlphaAeffchen wrote: Lotv did good changes economey wise Lotv changes were so good half of the players left. On September 08 2016 21:24 AlphaAeffchen wrote: but Terran gameplay is so bad if you compare it to the other episodes of starcraft. Also considering nothing really changed for Terran comparing to previous explansions. On September 08 2016 21:24 AlphaAeffchen wrote: This games Needs Major and drastic changes to stay fresh. Also some Players will comeback. Many left because Blizzard didnt hold theri promise foe mech viability. Now this will Change and some Players will comeback. ~150k players left. Assuming they are equally distributed among races what's the chance these people left because of (your) broken promises? (also considering there were no such promises). | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 08 2016 21:19 petro1987 wrote: Why do you think mech is supposed to be a "ground/air untouchable deathball"? Do you think it was like that in BW? Why can't mech in SC2 be more like mech in BW? Isn't that what people have been wanting for years now? Isn't that the whole point of this discussion? Now, if you said you hate mech in BW, I would understand why you wouldn't want mech in SC2. But it seems you are OK with that in BW, so I just don't understand. Because BW is a different game. Units occupy more terrain (compared to SC2). They are clunky and hard to control. Playing a deathball in BW is counterproductive as you cant make you units attack all together due terrain and pathfinding/selection restrictions. While in SC2 units pile up on each other occupying much less space, move all together in a perfect formation and open fire simultaneously. I garantee protoss colosi compositions won't be as effective if stalkers couldnt rest under them. While the proposed changes promote the exact deathball play i described. Tanks and Thors clumped on each other oneshoting any other unit (what could never happen in BW). | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On September 08 2016 21:51 insitelol wrote: Because BW is a different game. Units occupy more terrain (compared to SC2). They are clunky and hard to control. Playing a deathball in BW is counterproductive as you cant make you units attack all together due terrain and pathfinding/selection restrictions. While in SC2 units pile up on each other occupying much less space, move all together in a perfect formation and open fire simultaneously. I garantee protoss colosi compositions won't be as effective if stalkers couldnt rest under them. While the proposed changes promote the exact deathball play i described. Tanks and Thors clumped on each other oneshoting any other unit (what could never happen in BW). What's your level of knowledge in BW? Are you familiar with Flash's double armory 2/1 build in TvP? He pushes around 170 supply with what you would call a "deathball". It's harder to control, of course, due to the 12 unit grouping. Mech units do clump a lot in BW, not as much as in SC2, but they do clump. In fact, you have to babysit your units a lot, splitting them, otherwise a good stasis will wreck you. The reason people are OK with mech in BW is not really about the raw power that it brings in a deathball. It's because mech has several weaknesses that can be exploited. Recalls, stasis, zealot bombs, caughting them badly sieged, flanking, etc. I think introducing overkill in tanks is something they should explore in SC2. It would open up a lot possibilities to fighting a mech army. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 08 2016 22:21 petro1987 wrote: What's your level of knowledge in BW? Are you familiar with Flash's double armory 2/1 build in TvP? He pushes around 170 supply with what you would call a "deathball". It's harder to control, of course, due to the 12 unit grouping. Mech units do clump a lot in BW, not as much as in SC2, but they do clump. In fact, you have to babysit your units a lot, splitting them, otherwise a good stasis will wreck you. The reason people are OK with mech in BW is not really about the raw power that it brings in a deathball. It's because mech has several weaknesses that can be exploited. Recalls, stasis, zealot bombs, caughting them badly sieged, flanking, etc. I think introducing overkill in tanks is something they should explore in SC2. It would open up a lot possibilities to fighting a mech army. Ok, may be, whatever. I don't really want to go into details and i admit i lack bw knowledge (it's common sense mostly i'm not into exact builds or w/e). But i know how units interact in SC2 pretty well, and i see no real counter to Cyclone/Tank/Thor/Liberator/Raven bullcrap. This comp just seems invincible to me, and no option from BW you mentioned is available to SC2 protoss and zerg. Exept for may be drops. But again i may be wrong here. Hard to predict how gameplay will turn out. My original post was not about mech being good/bad etc. All i'm saying im strongly against inconsistant drastic game changes. Whether it's mech. or anything else. SC2 constantly changed through years, and changed a lot (new units/redesign of old ones, even economy overhaul). Did they have a positive effect on SC2 popularity/playerbase? No they got the exact opposite effect. Until the core of the game/major design directions remains the same nothing will change. So may be blizzard should focus on something else. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
Well first of all many People left because SC is a hardcore game and a 1v1 game and not a Team game like mobas thats the main reason. Drastic gameplay changes will at least bring back some players like frustrated terrans who only can Play bio Units +x10% other units and have only one core unit. Which is stupid and boring game design for terran. You can say what you want but your Argument that cylone/Tank/Thor/libearator/Raven is invincible shows that you dont know about what your talking! First of all you have to get there (oh by the way sky toss with tempest is unbetable at the moment look the match Neeb vs snute really awfull game design by the way). But more important Toss has immortals strong air or can outplay the terran. Zerg has vipers other strong air Units or can outplay Terran (Drops) on ground because mech is very immobile so stop arguing about points you dont know! Also a tank buff will give Terran Players the possibility to push earlier because you do more damage. This is called timing pushes/attacks. Oh by the way they were also possible in BW because of tank damage! And you cant tutle because of the economey and also tutteling depends on maps! And for the last time Terran gameplay is very very poor if you compare it to BW. Blizzard will change it lwith mech viability. Again Mech viability will come! The only question is about how strong the buffs for mech will be. Deal with it :-) | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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The Bottle
242 Posts
I see a lot of people using the analogous argument that protoss players don't have "pure robo builds". I think this if flawed, and a false analogy for two reasons. The first reason is that protoss doesn't have the same upgrade structure as terran. Gateway and robo units all share the same upgrades, so you're not "determining" your path by picking which upgrades you go as protoss. That makes mixed gateway + robo builds much more viable than mixed bio + mech builds. The second is that the distribution of variety between gateway and robo is very different from that of barracks and factory. Terran only have two viable tier 1 barracks units, the marine and marauder. (Viable meaning able to compose your army in the mid-game, unlike reaper who is meant for early game scouting or all in.) Contrast this to protoss who can go a myriad of different styles from pure gateway tech alone, like zealot sentry, blink stalkers, mass adepts, adept sentry. On the other hand, there's much more variety in T2 (or T2.5) factory tech than there is in robo tech. Protoss have only 3 combat units from the robo (two of which I would argue have overlapping roles) while terran has 5 (6 if you count hellion/hellbat as different units) which can give room for a myriad of different mid-game styles. I don't think anyone would argue that a terran should get away with only ever making factory units in every game. Of course you have to make vikings in some situations, or ghosts in another, etc. But I think they still have virtually no diversity when it comes to what their core units should be in the mid game. Sure there is diversity within that choice of core units (you can supplement marines with tanks, or liberators, or widow mines, etc) but that's just not as good as it is with the other two races. Zerg can actually choose what their mid-game core will be (roach vs zergling) and can get away with never researching zergling speed in some games. Protoss can easily choose what their core units are (zealots, adepts, or stalkers, or a near-even mix). In both cases that choice of core units can lead to drastically different play styles, whereas with terran it seems like you only really get similar playstyles with some variety. I don't think it's a balance issue (I honestly don't know where exactly I stand in balance but I lean towards the balance being pretty good right now) but it's a diversity of gameplay issue. I think I would enjoy ZvT a lot more if I got to play vs mech or bio in different games. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On September 08 2016 21:00 insitelol wrote: I'm not against mech, i'm against unreasoned, absolutely unnecessary drastic changes to gameplay. It scares off dedicated players. That's my point. But what's even worse, it seems that blizzard is driven by panic these days as the state of SC2 is getting worse with every month. Thier actions got no logic/consistency or masterplan behind them. They are random. Few months ago there was a constant weekly discussion about the current state of the game, there were lots of proposals (coming from blizzard) on how to fix the balance, tweaking liberator/muta/adept etc. But then all of a sudden blizzard stopped any communtication. Then DK jumps out of nowhere and is like: "We are gonna change the shit out this game again!!!". And everyone is like: "Hooray!!! It's so much fun!". And speaking about mech, well can't you understand why people don't wana play against a ground/air untouchable deathball slowly approaching your bases? Because that's how mech is supposed to work in SC2. There is no other way. And you call this fun? And skill? Broodlord infestor not fun. SH not fun. Protoss deathballs not fun. But if its Terran its fun! i don't think its a state of panic. i think DK was just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. Its part of the "brainstorming" process and part of product development. On September 08 2016 21:24 AlphaAeffchen wrote: This games Needs Major and drastic changes to stay fresh. Also some Players will comeback. Many left because Blizzard didnt hold theri promise foe mech viability. Now this will Change and some Players will comeback. Jerry Seinfeld move over. Thanks for the laugh guy. i don't want the game to "stay fresh". i want the game to mature in 2017; i want it to solidify and deepen strategically due to players exploring the game in a comprehensive way because of the game's stability. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
Hey very good post. You are absolutly right and this is what many Terrans try to tell the community. I would like to explain 2 more things. Only Factory Units based game: This usually never happens. I dont like this argument because you build always support units like you do for bio, Ravens, Vikings Dropships sometimes a few marines at the beginning.....or ghosts for lategame or some liberators. Sometimes you do a transition to skyterran. Balance: The Problem at the Moment is skytoss with mass Tempest is nearly unbetable for Terran or Zerg if the protoss does eveeything right. Also Terran has to win the midgame or he will be at a very hard disadvantage in lategame... Thx for your good explaining of the different playstyles for protoss and Zerg vs Terran gameplay. This is exactly what i mean :-) | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 09 2016 00:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i don't think its a state of panic. i think DK was just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. Its part of the "brainstorming" process and part of product development. Well actually that was what i meant, w/o over exaggeration. The question is: would a developer of a successfull product do such a risky thing? I just think they are "brainstorming" ideas in the "wrong field". For me its obvious that unit balance is the least problem of this game. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
Its not only Balance ist boring gameplay for terran which is onediminsional. Believe me Blizzard will Change many things an we get a new fresh meta. Which is good for the game. Its good because we wont seee Mass Bio +x10% Support unit and the same Basic strategy for Terran in everey game. TvT will be better because Tnkivacs will go and we have amore positional gameplay and you have to think whre to engage and postion your tanks right. Guys there will be changes for mech the only question is how the numbers will be tweakred! | ||
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