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On September 04 2016 09:24 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 09:14 ShamanElemental1 wrote:On September 04 2016 07:23 VHbb wrote:
Bah I trust blizzard on this matter
I think they over-buff mech (or over-nerf its counters) to have it more tested on the balance map
Also reading TL you see everything and the opposite: people complain about mech OP, zerg lategame OP, adepts OP, etc.etc. basically in these community news threads everybody try to whine about the other 2 races to get some buffs for its own.
I really would like more if Blizzard didn't release these kind of statements and just proceeded to balance the game as they see fit, maybe talking with pros to get some feedback Yeah... i wouldnt trust the balance team with anything. Most of the time they fail very hard... this is why the community always complains. They never fix the design problems, they just band aid forever. Son should i remeind you that the kespa pros said specificaly that zerg sucks and needs 4 larva back because the new economy kills their natural advantage in the early to mid game... And Blizzard stopped because the community was screaming Nooo ultras OP, i cant micro fuck the koreans... its the korean zerfs who are bad, eu is great... So yeah... what can i say the balance team mirrors the whining community perfectly. Did you just call me son?  Is it some patronising way of feeling superior in the discussion? Man people talk different on forums vs in reality.. :D I guess we have different opinions, I enjoy sc2 very much so I trust the people who made it to keep doing a good job I will give my feedback but I'm sure someone who works in sc2 daily knows more than me, random ladder player ..
I called you son because im pretty old.
If i wanted to feel superior i would just hammer you with things like " you really didtn answer my qustion "
I can accept that we both have different views
On September 04 2016 09:23 Lexender wrote:1.- This is a patch that is supposed to change design not balance, by making different styles and change the way they play, not to try to solve balance problems. 2.- The whole thing is supposed to be a big patch that changes a lot of stuff, taking baby steps is literaly what they DONT want to do.
1. Its more of a tweak in numbers then actual design, and i think they want to solve balance to.
2. Yeah rushing a big change instead of doing baby steps faster and sooner is way better..... yeah no dude.
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On September 03 2016 06:19 petro1987 wrote:
I guess the most weird thing is that they have already come to a conclusion that mech is too strong based on 2 weeks in a test map that pros don't even play and doesn't even have a matchmaking. Maybe, just maybe, they should try let it sink for a while? Or try to get pros to play it and only THEN provide conclusions on it?
I agree.
They let us find a solution during some months with blink stalkers mother ship core all ins, with broodlords infestors with warp prism adepts with immortals all ins on 2 base,
At the beginning of hots oracles were imba, at the beginning of lot ultras were.
Mech is strong now because nobody play mech for months so nobody knows how to play vs mech.
And regarding siege tank, that's ridiculous to remove tankivacs if they don't get a good upgrade to compensate this big nerf.
Why I have the feeling when something is good in terran, that's immediately nerfed or removed, but when it is something terrans have difficulties to deal with, that's ok and let's see what happens...
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On September 05 2016 10:27 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2016 06:03 Tyrhanius wrote:
Not hard to understand that if the tank of wol was nerfed because he was too strong :
If you add a tank stronger than the wol tank with no more siege upgrade requierement, yeah mech will become too strong...
Sure there is new unit, but with armor tag 100/100 3 ravager become weaker than a simple roach...
But of course there are players that don't want a better and more balanced game but only they want their race stronger than the other... Theres more than just ravagers to counter tanks that weren't in WoL, like adepts shade, tempest (altough nerfed the deathball spell actually works on them) disruptors (they outrange tanks combined with no more tank pick ups), SH (they are actually good at drawing FF, if they do manage to land I) vipers, liberators, hellbat drops, etc. Yeah I know some are better counter than other but my point is that a unit being X in WoL barely matter because of how much different the games are.
The problem is tank come very early, and you can't say : it's ok, SH/viper/broodlords are fine to counter tanks...
Yeah and before ?
Aslo mech, has hellions/cyclon that are very strong.
there is a toon of things that could be done to balance that : overkilling on tanks, or nerf dmg but give + shield, or increase attack period, add an upgrade that make dmg buff come later on the game, etc...
But if Terran deny "mech is too strong" just for " i want my race OP", we can't advance
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What surprises me the most is not DK stating mech is too strong, but that it wasn't obvious for him when he decided to buff tanks damage by 40%. Along with buffing cyclone. Along with nerfing shit out of ravagers, nerfing BL. lol. According to you guys we played a broken game for 6 years. Where tanks dealt half the damage they were intended to deal. And no core mech unit which cyclone was intended to be. And still terrans got the same winrate compared to other races. And all of a sudden DK decided to double the efficiency of a certain terran composition and hoped it wont be op. Cool. Buff stalkers damage by 40% next, we are not seeing them a lot.
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On September 05 2016 17:27 insitelol wrote:
What surprises me the most is not DK stating mech is too strong, but that it wasn't obvious for him when he decided to buff tanks damage by 40%. Along with buffing cyclone. Along with nerfing shit out of ravagers, nerfing BL. lol. According to you guys we played a broken game for 6 years. Where tanks dealt half the damage they were intended to deal. And no core mech unit which cyclone was intended to be. And still terrans got the same winrate compared to other races. And all of a sudden DK decided to double the efficiency of a certain terran composition and hoped it wont be op. Cool. Buff stalkers damage by 40% next, we are not seeing them a lot.
Well, tanks were basicaly terrible since the WoL patch when they were heavily nerfed. After that, people would only build a couple tanks in TvZ and TvT. In HoTS, tanks were just replaced by mines in TvZ, so they were barely used at all. Tanks only started being used again in LoTV, when they got tankivacs. Now, they wanna remove tankivacs, so tanks must be buffed in order to remain viable. Besides, tanks got 40% dmg only vs armored. Most are not saying that mech isn't OP at all. Most are just saying to give it time, at least try to get pro players to test it, so we can actually draw conclusions based on real games. There was a small tournament on 09/03 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/513270-balance-test-mod-tournament) and guess what 4 zergs on semifinals. There is another tournament going on today (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/513520-sc2replaystats-test-map-koth). Let's actually watch some games between pros and see what happens before we conclude that mech is OP.
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On September 03 2016 06:42 Teoita wrote:
I hate the nerf to shade vision because it removes the adept's scouting and doens't do that much for jumping adepts between mineral lines in the midgame. I'd prefer a shade cooldown nerf.
agree
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After about 50 testgames at master level I can report some of my observations:
-bio still feels very viable in TvT, strong tanks help zone giant mech armies from freely getting up close and sieging up so the buff somewhat works for the bio player too, along with the big bio buff that was lotv econ changes. Bio vs mech tvt is sadly showing a tendancy to go into mass air games later on.
-a noticable improvment in TvP mech viability tho not quite there yet. You can now use cyclones to control the earlygame and prevent the P player from securing a super fast 3rd base (cyclones could be OP vs protoss if paired with bio play)
-I have no idea how to manage mass swarmhost armies as a mech player, this alone makes me feel like TvZ mech is the farthest away from true viability out of all 3 matchups
And a sidenote: It's very obvious that the people constantly going on and on about Avilo's character and trying to discredit him based on personality have no real arguments or seemingly even the capacity to think critically for themselves.
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On September 05 2016 17:01 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2016 10:27 Lexender wrote:On September 05 2016 06:03 Tyrhanius wrote:
Not hard to understand that if the tank of wol was nerfed because he was too strong :
If you add a tank stronger than the wol tank with no more siege upgrade requierement, yeah mech will become too strong...
Sure there is new unit, but with armor tag 100/100 3 ravager become weaker than a simple roach...
But of course there are players that don't want a better and more balanced game but only they want their race stronger than the other... Theres more than just ravagers to counter tanks that weren't in WoL, like adepts shade, tempest (altough nerfed the deathball spell actually works on them) disruptors (they outrange tanks combined with no more tank pick ups), SH (they are actually good at drawing FF, if they do manage to land I) vipers, liberators, hellbat drops, etc. Yeah I know some are better counter than other but my point is that a unit being X in WoL barely matter because of how much different the games are. The problem is tank come very early, and you can't say : it's ok, SH/viper/broodlords are fine to counter tanks... Yeah and before ? Aslo mech, has hellions/cyclon that are very strong. there is a toon of things that could be done to balance that : overkilling on tanks, or nerf dmg but give + shield, or increase attack period, add an upgrade that make dmg buff come later on the game, etc... But if Terran deny "mech is too strong" just for " i want my race OP", we can't advance
Don't put words on other peoples mouth, you said "there is a reason WoL tanks were nerfed" as if they shouldn't buff them at all.
I'm all for balancing the tanks if they are too strong but if people say "mech is too OP" or "terran is too OP" without enough testing we can't advance.
On September 05 2016 13:30 ShamanElemental1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 09:24 VHbb wrote:On September 04 2016 09:14 ShamanElemental1 wrote:On September 04 2016 07:23 VHbb wrote:
Bah I trust blizzard on this matter
I think they over-buff mech (or over-nerf its counters) to have it more tested on the balance map
Also reading TL you see everything and the opposite: people complain about mech OP, zerg lategame OP, adepts OP, etc.etc. basically in these community news threads everybody try to whine about the other 2 races to get some buffs for its own.
I really would like more if Blizzard didn't release these kind of statements and just proceeded to balance the game as they see fit, maybe talking with pros to get some feedback Yeah... i wouldnt trust the balance team with anything. Most of the time they fail very hard... this is why the community always complains. They never fix the design problems, they just band aid forever. Son should i remeind you that the kespa pros said specificaly that zerg sucks and needs 4 larva back because the new economy kills their natural advantage in the early to mid game... And Blizzard stopped because the community was screaming Nooo ultras OP, i cant micro fuck the koreans... its the korean zerfs who are bad, eu is great... So yeah... what can i say the balance team mirrors the whining community perfectly. Did you just call me son? Is it some patronising way of feeling superior in the discussion? Man people talk different on forums vs in reality.. :D I guess we have different opinions, I enjoy sc2 very much so I trust the people who made it to keep doing a good job I will give my feedback but I'm sure someone who works in sc2 daily knows more than me, random ladder player .. I called you son because im pretty old. If i wanted to feel superior i would just hammer you with things like " you really didtn answer my qustion " I can accept that we both have different views Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 09:23 Lexender wrote:On September 04 2016 02:55 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
Balance needs baby steps.
1.- This is a patch that is supposed to change design not balance, by making different styles and change the way they play, not to try to solve balance problems. 2.- The whole thing is supposed to be a big patch that changes a lot of stuff, taking baby steps is literaly what they DONT want to do. 1. Its more of a tweak in numbers then actual design, and i think they want to solve balance to. 2. Yeah rushing a big change instead of doing baby steps faster and sooner is way better..... yeah no dude.
1.- Removal of tankivac with tank buff is not a tweak in numbers, no ground lock on and a diferent attack of cyclone either, the new tempest ability, DT blink, the capacity to use all abilities while burrowed for infestors, etc. They are all design changes and not tweaks in numbers.
2.- It doesn't matter whats better, thats not whay they wan't, they wan't to shake the meta in a big way and baby steps don't acomplish that.
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Tanks were always fine without medivac pickup, and they were fine before the damage buff. Sure you couldn't mass them and faceroll your enemy like BW days but that's not how they are supposed to be used. They were meant to play a niche role in strategic locations on the map where enemies couldn't reach you easily - and they still do this job well before and after the buff.
Stop with the "I want my race OP" type of thinking, or else you'll kill SC2 faster
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It's going to be a tough slog for DK to make mech viable in all 3 matchups while keeping mixed bio/mech play still balanced IMO. Glad they are trying at least though. Shade nerf is ironic... I mean one of its original intentions was to allow early scouting options for Protoss and most folks complain about the low CD rather than the vision it provides.
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On September 03 2016 11:23 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 06:31 petro1987 wrote:On September 03 2016 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:On September 03 2016 06:11 Zulu23 wrote:
Give us Automatchmaking for the testmap to make reliable test games on similar skill levels.
There is no way mech is too strong, right now. Cyclones are not cost effective. Siege Tank Fire indeed is strong. vs zerg it's probably too strong right now because of tank buff + ravager nerf + broodlord range nerf which are all massive. 60 damage tanks should be tested instead of 70. I don't think ravagers are supposed to be the composition to face mech in the test map. Hydras and infestors were buffed so maybe that's the new way to fight mech alongside vipers? I play Zerg vs Mech on the live game and most games i don't even build a single ravager. Just all roach/hydra/viper with nydus etc. It's ludicrous for blizzard to think mech is too strong 2 weeks on the test map when i've played it myself as Zerg and did not have any problem at all versus mech. The problem is no one in the SC2 community has massive experience vs mech because it's played 1% of games at masters+ and pro level... They buffed all the mech counters - burrowed infestors, hydras, vipers, etc etc...but wait tanks are too strong? ROFL give me a break. Kinda depressing they're already backtracking as usual. This happens every single time. I knew not to believe anything about blizzard ever fixing mech.
Just had to go a few pages in the thread to find Avilo complaining about potential mech nerf, what a nice labor day.
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On September 06 2016 06:24 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2016 11:23 avilo wrote:On September 03 2016 06:31 petro1987 wrote:On September 03 2016 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:On September 03 2016 06:11 Zulu23 wrote:
Give us Automatchmaking for the testmap to make reliable test games on similar skill levels.
There is no way mech is too strong, right now. Cyclones are not cost effective. Siege Tank Fire indeed is strong. vs zerg it's probably too strong right now because of tank buff + ravager nerf + broodlord range nerf which are all massive. 60 damage tanks should be tested instead of 70. I don't think ravagers are supposed to be the composition to face mech in the test map. Hydras and infestors were buffed so maybe that's the new way to fight mech alongside vipers? I play Zerg vs Mech on the live game and most games i don't even build a single ravager. Just all roach/hydra/viper with nydus etc. It's ludicrous for blizzard to think mech is too strong 2 weeks on the test map when i've played it myself as Zerg and did not have any problem at all versus mech. The problem is no one in the SC2 community has massive experience vs mech because it's played 1% of games at masters+ and pro level... They buffed all the mech counters - burrowed infestors, hydras, vipers, etc etc...but wait tanks are too strong? ROFL give me a break. Kinda depressing they're already backtracking as usual. This happens every single time. I knew not to believe anything about blizzard ever fixing mech. Just had to go a few pages in the thread to find Avilo complaining about potential mech nerf, what a nice labor day.
The sad part was that he successfully trolled some TLers by stating he understands game design better than most players and some game designers.
I don't know if he was truly sincere, or even partially, but his comment certainly got a few people to reply.
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lol terran players always act like they are getting ziped when they have most units that can be played in the game.
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They should just revers ravager nerf, it made no sense anyway and that will help Zerg a lot vs mech.
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On September 03 2016 06:42 Teoita wrote:
I hate the nerf to shade vision because it removes the adept's scouting and doens't do that much for jumping adepts between mineral lines in the midgame. I'd prefer a shade cooldown nerf.
i would love to see, that you cannot cancle the shade. this would solve a lot of issues with the adept. it might loose its scouting ability, but i think with oracle / helo phoenix and so on, there are enough possibilitys.
btw.:if avilo would be responsible for the balance, sc2 would become a 1 race, 1 playstyle game.
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On September 06 2016 05:06 Skyro wrote:
It's going to be a tough slog for DK to make mech viable in all 3 matchups while keeping mixed bio/mech play still balanced IMO. Glad they are trying at least though. Shade nerf is ironic... I mean one of its original intentions was to allow early scouting options for Protoss and most folks complain about the low CD rather than the vision it provides.
For the last time, there's ZERO reason why mech needs to viable in 3 matchups, or viable at all. You Terrans are so spoiled, you already have the most units in the game. Even in BW, mech wasn't really viable vs. Zerg until much later when Fantasy developed modern mech builds against Zerg.
Seriously, fuck that noise.
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Hi,
Terran has only one viable playstyle which is mass bio +x. Mech has to be viable. It makes the game more strategic and fun to play for all races!
Everey other race is more fun at the Moment because they have more viable unit compositions to play.
The terran mech play style is important for starcraft and has to be vibale. Also this will bring Players back to the game like HTO Mario.
Blizzard pls dont nerf the tank let the meta settle and patch the game!
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On September 07 2016 16:52 AlphaAeffchen wrote:
Hi,
Terran has only one viable playstyle which is mass bio +x. Mech has to be viable. It makes the game more strategic and fun to play for all races!
Everey other race is more fun at the Moment because they have more viable unit compositions to play.
The terran mech play style is important for starcraft and has to be vibale. Also this will bring Players back to the game like HTO Mario.
Blizzard pls dont nerf the tank let the meta settle and patch the game!
So following your reasoning, when Blizzard removed the SwarmHost based composition from the game, it has made the game less interesting?
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@ Vandiel
It is not about one unit it is about an entire playstyle. Again everey other race can do completly different styles Terran can only play bio +x competitive.
Swarmhost is a completly different Story (you had to build ravens because terran could not counter it with mech only Units). This was a stupid turtle fest.
When we have our mech buffs terran can play agressive mech!
Blizzard said that they will buff terran mech units in some way. The only question is how strong the buffs have to be.
We will get a viable mech style deal with it!
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On September 07 2016 14:11 parkufarku wrote:
You Terrans are so spoiled, you already have the most units in the game
No, that would be Protoss, even without discounting battlecruisers which are made in less competitive matches than swarm hosts.
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EPT
