On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
While it's a very interesting map from a design and viewer perspective, there's one thing with that Dasan stands out to me, and that is if it is also fun to play, which I believe should be the main function of the map, especially when it comes to ladder, and why I consider this map in particular to be more fit for showmatches/tournaments rather than regular play.
Reception of the map during the testing tournament wasn't all to positive, which leaves me with question marks about its future on the ladder.
While I agree maps should be fun to play, I think a lot of players think it won't be fun (or don't think its fun) because you can't just copy and paste meta builds on the map. Since WCS will (hopefully) force the map's meta to be worked out we can get a better assessment of whether its fun or not once that happens.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
I saw all the games, and I really hated how awkward the games got past all the early rushes. As for Judgement I think most people aren't aware that it is one of the new GSL maps...
On July 08 2016 06:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Maybe Blizzard will actually add the rocks, that might be the best form of actions
hopefully...
They have to, right? I mean this is possibly unplayable for Protoss vs Zerg, it's ugly for Terran vs Zerg, and I don't think this is okay for Terran vs Protoss either, but every Protoss would veto this because of PvZ so nobody could ever know for sure.
Only the Z match-ups would be problematic I think. If anything the rocks help T since you can park a tank behind the rocks. I would have no problems playing PvT on this version I think. But the lack of rocks in the corridor just destroys the Z mus I think (even ZvZ !). I mean no, maybe it doesn't destroy them ; after all Lerilak Crest was playableish... But it kills the intention of the map, and that's extremely disrespectful.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
I saw all the games, and I really hated how awkward the games got past all the early rushes. As for Judgement I think most people aren't aware that it is one of the new GSL maps...
Probably true, I think you would only know about it if you watched Group A.
To be brutally honest, I remember when the map was posted on TL a little while back and I just skimmed it because it was clearly so mediocre. Seems like they are really hit and miss with picking their new maps recently.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
I saw all the games, and I really hated how awkward the games got past all the early rushes. As for Judgement I think most people aren't aware that it is one of the new GSL maps...
Probably true, I think you would only know about it if you watched Group A.
To be brutally honest, I remember when the map was posted on TL a little while back and I just skimmed it because it was clearly so mediocre. Seems like they are really hit and miss with picking their new maps recently.
Yeah. Same.
Korean mapmakers really seem to love Dusk Towers somehow, and Judgement is basically a worse and four player spin on the concept.
What about a BOMBTL* "bring old maps back to life" map contest? i'd love to see old maps "reinvented" for LOTV. nostalgia, the look and feel, fame and fortune.. and most of all good games. scrap station, blistering sands, lost temple, kulas revine, metalopolis.. (i'm fine with skipping steppes of war).
make them bigger, LOTV-compatible, better, "balanced" (...) but keep their soul.
*edit: nope, not a hidden threat x) just coincidence
On July 08 2016 07:57 Barrin wrote: *They shouldn't have to throw out an otherwise good map just because its maker wanted one particular (albeit major) feature to be this particular way.
That's a rather sinister way of saying that Blizzard should be able to do whatever they want.
Either way, I don't think you understand. Nobody is disputing intellectual property, or whether or not Blizzard is allowed to do this. They're not talking about what is legally correct (which is what you keep talking about), they're talking about what is morally correct, because as this is a community affair, the morals - or lack thereof - that I see at play are a huge factor. If you're trying to build, or even retain(!) your community, what's legally correct doesn't matter for shit, people care about how you treat them. Put the legal doctrine away.
And honestly, no I don't want that map on ladder. It's not mine, and I wouldn't have submitted a map like that to TLMC in the first place.
Cry me a fucking river. The only major change they did was remove a rock by the natural. Sure, it's weird they did that but for you to bitch as much as you are and saying it's not the same map and complaining up a storm is ridiculous. I'm sorry instead of using a shit load of Xel'naga hull reactors with a ton of lights they instead switched it up to the Curbs to increase performance. I'm sorry instead of keeping all that random border art that for at least most of it, you can't even see in game due to boundaries they changed it up, once again to increase performance. I'm sorry they used Shakuras tiles instead of whatever the hell xel'naga ones you had.
The only change. The absolute only change they did that people SHOULD be complaining about is removing the rocks by the backdoor. But instead of people mainly questioning that decision you're trying to raise all our pitchforks saying Blizzard is so disrespectful by "so many uncalled-for changes" Last I knew, fixing performance for the majority of the player base isn't uncalled for. And who knows, with the way blizzard has been recently, they might even do a quick fix by adding the rocks back in before the season fully starts. Maybe they'll let it play out for a week before changing it. They use to never do map changes at all and at least in LoTV they have done some, they have been better with communicating, and even though the balance changes are very minimal at times, they are at least constantly patching to game to try to better balance races.
Blizzard has always changed up aesthetics on maps, whether it be changing up the textures or changing up doodads because guess what, people play SC2 with shitty computers and nothing (besides latency problems) is worst then playing on a map that has massive FPS problems. They have their programs, they have their data, they know what their user base can and can not run and changing up map aesthetics to better accommodate those players shouldn't be something we should bitch about.
But alas, instead of just being happy that you got your map on ladder and now you can see many of your favorite professional players play games on it, you'd rather deny that, bitch, complain, shout names & generally just be disrespectful right back towards Blizzard.
On July 08 2016 07:57 Barrin wrote: *They shouldn't have to throw out an otherwise good map just because its maker wanted one particular (albeit major) feature to be this particular way.
That's a rather sinister way of saying that Blizzard should be able to do whatever they want.
Either way, I don't think you understand. Nobody is disputing intellectual property, or whether or not Blizzard is allowed to do this. They're not talking about what is legally correct (which is what you keep talking about), they're talking about what is morally correct, because as this is a community affair, the morals - or lack thereof - that I see at play are a huge factor. If you're trying to build, or even retain(!) your community, what's legally correct doesn't matter for shit, people care about how you treat them. Put the legal doctrine away.
And honestly, no I don't want that map on ladder. It's not mine, and I wouldn't have submitted a map like that to TLMC in the first place.
Maybe it's just about seeing the larger picture, maybe your version was better "alone" but would not have been such a great addition to the map pool in regard of the others, and that new version of blizzard will make the whole map pool overall more enjoyable.
So in the end, it could be just like your map need to be adapted to fit in, or not be choosen at all.
Either way, it's a win win situation for you : if blizzard failed, you can keep your martyr attitude and have a mapmaker lives matter movement start to defend you, if the new version is actually better, then you'll still call it yoru map and get some chicks at every barcrafts and nerds will be like "oh he has his map" "it's said he crafted it himself, from another map"
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
While it's a very interesting map from a design and viewer perspective, there's one thing with that Dasan stands out to me, and that is if it is also fun to play, which I believe should be the main function of the map, especially when it comes to ladder, and why I consider this map in particular to be more fit for showmatches/tournaments rather than regular play.
Reception of the map during the testing tournament wasn't all to positive, which leaves me with question marks about its future on the ladder.
While I agree maps should be fun to play, I think a lot of players think it won't be fun (or don't think its fun) because you can't just copy and paste meta builds on the map. Since WCS will (hopefully) force the map's meta to be worked out we can get a better assessment of whether its fun or not once that happens.
I don't like weird maps because I just do a gimmick on them and collect my win. It's not very fun. Like endion, I'll do a 1 1/2 base queen ling drop in zvz, and I've literally never lost doing it. It's a weird build, no one knows the timings for it, so they just lose to it.
Cry me a fucking river. The only major change they did was remove a rock by the natural. Sure, it's weird they did that but for you to bitch as much as you are and saying it's not the same map and complaining up a storm is ridiculous. I'm sorry instead of using a shit load of Xel'naga hull reactors with a ton of lights they instead switched it up to the Curbs to increase performance. I'm sorry instead of keeping all that random border art that for at least most of it, you can't even see in game due to boundaries they changed it up, once again to increase performance. I'm sorry they used Shakuras tiles instead of whatever the hell xel'naga ones you had.
The only change. The absolute only change they did that people SHOULD be complaining about is removing the rocks by the backdoor. But instead of people mainly questioning that decision you're trying to raise all our pitchforks saying Blizzard is so disrespectful by "so many uncalled-for changes" Last I knew, fixing performance for the majority of the player base isn't uncalled for. And who knows, with the way blizzard has been recently, they might even do a quick fix by adding the rocks back in before the season fully starts. Maybe they'll let it play out for a week before changing it. They use to never do map changes at all and at least in LoTV they have done some, they have been better with communicating, and even though the balance changes are very minimal at times, they are at least constantly patching to game to try to better balance races.
Blizzard has always changed up aesthetics on maps, whether it be changing up the textures or changing up doodads because guess what, people play SC2 with shitty computers and nothing (besides latency problems) is worst then playing on a map that has massive FPS problems. They have their programs, they have their data, they know what their user base can and can not run and changing up map aesthetics to better accommodate those players shouldn't be something we should bitch about.
But alas, instead of just being happy that you got your map on ladder and now you can see many of your favorite professional players play games on it, you'd rather deny that, bitch, complain, shout names & generally just be disrespectful right back towards Blizzard.
My map was changed significantly, in both aesthetics and functional layout, without so much as telling me. When Blizzard sneaks something like that in and still wants to credit me as the author, yes I'm going to say something.
Hypothetically, imagine if Blizzard said they were going to make some balance change, like give Siege Tanks +10 damage, and then when they do the balance update you see that the Thor is getting +10 damage instead. And instead of justifying why they're doing something different, they keep crediting the community for its feedback. Wouldn't you be asking some very pointed questions at that juncture?
I'm sorry I got a map on ladder and am less than thrilled about it, but I have every right. I would have liked nothing more than to be all smiles at the thought of making ladder after 5 years of this, but I see something happening that I can't just ignore. Check yourself before you talk to me like that again.
Cry me a fucking river. The only major change they did was remove a rock by the natural. Sure, it's weird they did that but for you to bitch as much as you are and saying it's not the same map and complaining up a storm is ridiculous. I'm sorry instead of using a shit load of Xel'naga hull reactors with a ton of lights they instead switched it up to the Curbs to increase performance. I'm sorry instead of keeping all that random border art that for at least most of it, you can't even see in game due to boundaries they changed it up, once again to increase performance. I'm sorry they used Shakuras tiles instead of whatever the hell xel'naga ones you had.
The only change. The absolute only change they did that people SHOULD be complaining about is removing the rocks by the backdoor. But instead of people mainly questioning that decision you're trying to raise all our pitchforks saying Blizzard is so disrespectful by "so many uncalled-for changes" Last I knew, fixing performance for the majority of the player base isn't uncalled for. And who knows, with the way blizzard has been recently, they might even do a quick fix by adding the rocks back in before the season fully starts. Maybe they'll let it play out for a week before changing it. They use to never do map changes at all and at least in LoTV they have done some, they have been better with communicating, and even though the balance changes are very minimal at times, they are at least constantly patching to game to try to better balance races.
Blizzard has always changed up aesthetics on maps, whether it be changing up the textures or changing up doodads because guess what, people play SC2 with shitty computers and nothing (besides latency problems) is worst then playing on a map that has massive FPS problems. They have their programs, they have their data, they know what their user base can and can not run and changing up map aesthetics to better accommodate those players shouldn't be something we should bitch about.
But alas, instead of just being happy that you got your map on ladder and now you can see many of your favorite professional players play games on it, you'd rather deny that, bitch, complain, shout names & generally just be disrespectful right back towards Blizzard.
My map was changed significantly, in both aesthetics and functional layout, without so much as telling me. When Blizzard sneaks something like that in and still wants to credit me as the author, yes I'm going to say something.
Hypothetically, imagine if Blizzard said they were going to make some balance change, like give Siege Tanks +10 damage, and then when they do the balance update you see that the Thor is getting +10 damage instead. And instead of justifying why they're doing something different, they keep crediting the community for its feedback. Wouldn't you be asking some very pointed questions at that juncture?
I'm sorry I got a map on ladder and am less than thrilled about it, but I have every right. I would have liked nothing more than to be all smiles at the thought of making ladder after 5 years of this, but I see something happening that I can't just ignore. Check yourself before you talk to me like that again.
Except the layout isn't significantly changed. The only change they did that has any difference on how the map plays out at all is the rocks being removed at the natural. This could easily have been a mistake on their end. Or maybe they had tons of internal testing and thought it played out better. It's a simple change that, as in at least LOTV, Blizzard has done before with maps. (Adding rocks, changing ramps, changing minerals) Hell, it might even still get changed before the season even starts. LE edition still is Version 0.1.
Regarding aesthetic changes, Blizzard had to roll the map out for the new season. All the light emitting doodads obviously caused less then sub-par performance with internal testing, so they changed them out to less performance heavy doodads. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that at all and the fact you're calling it unbelievable and a ton of disrespect is laughable.
There is a reason every non-mapper that gets invited to the Map Cave ends up leaving shortly after. The majority of the people in there are assholes who, at least in their minds, are never wrong and will just argue and bitch just to argue and bitch.
On July 08 2016 10:23 SidianTheBard wrote: Except the layout isn't significantly changed. The only change they did that has any difference on how the map plays out at all is the rocks being removed at the natural. This could easily have been a mistake on their end. Or maybe they had tons of internal testing and thought it played out better. It's a simple change that, as in at least LOTV, Blizzard has done before with maps. (Adding rocks, changing ramps, changing minerals) Hell, it might even still get changed before the season even starts. LE edition still is Version 0.1.
Regarding aesthetic changes, Blizzard had to roll the map out for the new season. All the light emitting doodads obviously caused less then sub-par performance with internal testing, so they changed them out to less performance heavy doodads. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that at all and the fact you're calling it unbelievable and a ton of disrespect is laughable.
There is a reason every non-mapper that gets invited to the Map Cave ends up leaving shortly after. The majority of the people in there are assholes who, at least in their minds, are never wrong and will just argue and bitch just to argue and bitch.
That 1 rock is the difference between a more normal natural expansion and one that invites all kind of aggression, and makes taking it harder, changing the nature of the map. That's kind of a big deal. Look at it as a player, the difference that you're downplaying is huge when you're actually in game.
As for aesthetics, ignore the low ground trim doodads, how do you explain the actual change in tileset? The reworking of other doodads all across the map? Is it all in the name of performance? To what extent am I allowed to use doodads to decorate my map? Or should I just not bother anymore? I'm inclined to take the last option at this point.
Also lastly, thank you for lumping me in with Ragoo and co.'s piss-poor excuse for mapmaking diplomacy.
"Waaaah I can't do my uber meta opener into a 25minute sim city game!" ^ basically what everybody hates about Dasan lol rip But then again Team Liquid wouldn't be complete without you guys <3
Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
On July 08 2016 06:23 JackONeill wrote: Dasan station shouldn't be a problem, but since silly shit is still in the game, how do you defend as terran a pylon rush on two gates? How do you defend a 3rax reaper as zerg? How do you defend... whatever MSC doesn't kill in early game?
Play some actual games on it and come back xD I can't wait to see your surprised face. You think the maker hasn't thought of this? Enekh is an experienced mapper (since BW) and knows what is strong and weak on this map. (He was worrying about siege tank drops being too strong for example.) However, after his talks with Jacky_ and the final submission to Blizzard I have NEVER heard him worry about early game all ins being broken.
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
I just noticed this myself. If the changes to my map or Enekh's map were as minor as on Apotheosis, I couldn't really complain, but this is pretty serious.
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
I just noticed this myself. If the changes to my map or Enekh's map were as minor as on Apotheosis, I couldn't really complain, but this is pretty serious.
Enekh made that change himself before the final vote didn't he?
EPT
