New Ladder Maps for 2016 Season 3 Blizzard Entertainment 7/6/2016 2 New Ladder Maps for 2016 Season 3 The upcoming Ladder Revamp will bring with it a series of new maps. These will become the new map pools for Season 3. Below, we’ve provided images and descriptions for each of the new maps coming to StarCraft II ladder competition, whether that be in the solo 1v1/Archon format.
Apotheosis was the highest voted macro map, and also the 2nd place overall voted by the players during the Team Liquid Map Contest 7. The combination of the nearby gold-expansion along with the Destructible Rocks that can be used offensively looked to be a cool unique feature of this macro map.
Galactic Process was also a top-voted map that uses a proven concept displayed in a fun map-archetype from the past. Although the general map layout is somewhat similar, there were solid additions in the form of rocks by the 3rd base location and a set of backdoor paths on the sides of the maps that the players can utilize to assault the enemy’s natural expansion.
New Gettysburg caught the attention of both us and KeSPA pro players as early as the submission stage of the contest. Since then, we’ve been working together with KeSPA and ‘Jacky’, the creator of the map, to improve it even further. We were aiming to use it as one of the new maps even before the results of the contest came in. However, we were also pleasantly surprised to see that our community agreed with us on the quality of the map as it was voted to be the number one map of this season’s Teamliquid map contest.
Dasan Station: Not only is this a genuinely unique map from the “new map types” category, it is also a strong rush-map. We wanted to add one new rush-map into the map pool this season, and this one was a stand-out map that also scored fairly high on the list.
"We will be removing Dusk Towers, Ulrena, Invader, and Ruins of Endion." - Arkitas Blizzard
I really wanted Galactic Process to win the map contest in the first place, looks like a good modern LOTV take on Cloud Kingdom.
Apotheosis also looks like a good take on an old map, excited to play it, seems like both of these will be very balanced macro maps but of course only time will tell.
Lol at Dasan statino, as a Zerg that map is an instant veto, Maru double drops or Warp Prism/Oracle/ all ins will be totally unstoppable, this map being in the pool pretty much makes the Queen/Spore buffs mandatory if you ever want to see a Zerg vs anybody on this map. I wouldn't really mind if Blizzard dropped the "new map type" maps entirely, they almost always make gimmicky crappy maps with Ulrenea being a mild exception imo.
Did they say which maps will be removed ? Also lol dasan station. I expect to have creep on my base by the 3 minute mark, if the game isnt over by the inevitable heavy rush
On July 07 2016 07:43 oGoZenob wrote: Did they say which maps will be removed ? Also lol dasan station. I expect to have creep on my base by the 3 minute mark, if the game isnt over by the inevitable heavy rush
They said they are going to remove Dusk Towers, Ulrena, Invader, and Ruins of Endion.
I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
No rocks in the corridor on Galactic Process can't possibly be intended. And if it is, then it needs to be corrected. Seriously.
EDIT : maybe you can actually block the corridor and the small ramp with three well placed buildings, but I'm unsure. We need to see the published map first.
Really? Dasan Station? I thought Blizzard learned their lesson about how crappy backdoors into mains are all the way back with Blistering Sands. Well, looks like it will be a VERY popular veto so not too much of a problem, I guess.
On July 07 2016 08:44 looknohands119 wrote: Really? Dasan Station? I thought Blizzard learned their lesson about how crappy backdoors into mains are all the way back with Blistering Sands. Well, looks like it will be a VERY popular veto so not too much of a problem, I guess.
I give that map one week before they say "it seems adding Dasan Station was not a very wise decision so we'll add back Dusk Towers"
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Rofl you're right. They took out the back rocks. How is Protoss going to take a natural?
It's a shame blizzard didn't contact you about this. Perhaps they could have included you like they did for jacky
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Rofl you're right. They took out the back rocks. How is Protoss going to take a natural?
It's a shame blizzard didn't contact you about this. Perhaps they could have included you like they did for jacky
as I said in my post it remains to be checked if P can't wall both those entrances with 3 buildings + a pylon since the ramp seems small in the preview
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Rofl you're right. They took out the back rocks. How is Protoss going to take a natural?
It's a shame blizzard didn't contact you about this. Perhaps they could have included you like they did for jacky
as I said in my post it remains to be checked if P can't wall both those entrances with 3 buildings + a pylon since the ramp seems small in the preview
Still a decision I can't understand...
It was absolutely not supposed to be that way, the whole design of the map was based on having a natural that you can take normally. They fundamentally changed how the map is going to play out and didn't say a word to me or anyone else.
Also the maps are published, so feel free to compare the correct version, named "DF Galactic Process" and what Blizzard decided they wanted, named "Galactic Process LE".
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Extremely disrespectful thing to do. I don't get why they ask for community map makers help and then make their own baffling changes anyway
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Wow that's pretty disrespectful of them. Blizzard needs to know about this on Reddit and on their own forums. Is there a contact you can speak with as well? Or maybe speak to whoever was in charge of the map contest?
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Wow that's pretty disrespectful of them. Blizzard needs to know about this on Reddit and on their own forums. Is there a contact you can speak with as well? Or maybe speak to whoever was in charge of the map contest?
I don't really post on or browse reddit, but I plan on posting threads about it here on TL, as well as battle.net. Furthermore, there is a community summit taking place soon, where the concern will also be brought up(time permitting). I'm open to communication about making changes, even though I don't see why these changes were made. My problem is there was none, I heard Galactic Process would make ladder and I assumed it would be the exact map I gave to the admins of the TLMC. After all, I had heard nothing about any further changes. It really makes me question whether I want to make more SC2 maps, when even if I'm lucky enough to actually make ladder, I still get treated like a 2nd-class citizen under Blizzard's thumb, it's supremely galling.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Sounds disgusting it's basically like they are stealing your work lol
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
I've got the TLMC version of GP open right now and I'm tabbing between that and the one Blizzard have previewed in their blog. They seem pretty similar, barring a couple layout and rock changes (the third's a wee bit different), I can't spot any visual differences besides.
I agree they shouldn't have changed your design without consulting and that their rock removal is bullshit but it doesn't seem as bad as you make out. Am I wrong?
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
I've got the TLMC version of GP open right now and I'm tabbing between that and the one Blizzard have previewed in their blog. They seem pretty similar, barring a couple layout and rock changes (the third's a wee bit different), I can't spot any visual differences besides.
I agree they shouldn't have changed your design without consulting and that their rock removal is bullshit but it doesn't seem as bad as you make out. Am I wrong?
the rock change alone is huge and potentially game breaking
Galactic Process is my favorite map of the contest but the rock removal is a huge WTF indeed.
I'd love to see pros playing Dasan because it's a different map for sure... But I'm afraid it will be a 1 base fiesta. Mass vetoes incoming. Wish they had picked Aiur Plateau instead.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
I don't even know what to say here. Beyond ridiculous and a huge fucking mistake - WHY?
First of all there is no reason no reason at all to put such a Map in like Dasan, like none. and then the random rework of Maps is first of all just plain retarded for no reason. Why you change the Map from Mapmakers who put alot of thought into it and then change it? To make it worse like blizard always does? Ah yeah Galactic the best example " we have no clue what we are doing lets remove the Backdoor Rocks where every Gold Player can see it would break the Map cuz u cant defend ur natural at all but hey davie and his Team knows for sure better" its just hopeless...
I'm actually looking forward to playing games on dasan station. But after the first 5-10 games it will probably be vetoed anyway, still a nice experiment.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
It appears they changed the third/main cliff, which we had edited during TLMC specifically to avoid blink abuse.
edit: actually the change seems smaller than i remembered? wierd...
On July 07 2016 21:11 Rowrin wrote: Galactic looks kinda like cloud kingdom had a baby with xel Naga caverns. Or is it just me?
One of the more important features of cloud kingdom was the 9-square wide natural entrance that allowed for walling with three gateway sized buildings or two gateway sized buildings plus a pylon and a unit
Am i not up to date with Dasan Station or did they remove the rocks from the mainbase entrances towards the enemy? Making rushes even quicker? Dont think I#ve seen anyone mention them.
On July 07 2016 21:22 Quateras wrote: Am i not up to date with Dasan Station or did they remove the rocks from the mainbase entrances towards the enemy? Making rushes even quicker? Dont think I#ve seen anyone mention them.
The entrance that is blocked by rocks was changed.
Yes, removing the "backdoor" (in quotations due to it's small distance from the other choke) natural rocks does help zerg. But maybe they kinda needed it. T/P will have to wait a tad longer to take their natural; at which point their third is basically free too. This is unlike any other map in LotV so far, and worth a try IMO. I would argue that the distance [zerg] army must travel to simultaneously pressure your natural backdoor and your third and end up reinforcing each other if things go wrong is adequately long, in favor of the defender.
In SC2 in 2016 there is no such thing as waiting longer to take your natural. Either you fast expand or you fall behind. We already saw this with Daedalus Point, or the first version of Lerilak Crest. P/T needing a wallable fast expansion vs Z is one of the main constraints in map making that is almost impossible to violate while still making the map work.
Removing the backdoor doesn't only help Zerg, you know. I'm not looking forward to double walling the natural vs adepts either.
Pretty much the only good thing removing the rocks does is that you can't park a tank over there to deny all gas mining and some minerals at the natural.
What is Blizzards obsession with what they want to call "rush maps"? What is a "rush map" anyways? Why must the map force a specific style of play, shouldn't it be up to the player to decide how they want to play the game?
@Barrin no, especially in LotV, a hard to take nat is just not an option.
I also agree with the previous post, rush maps just pidgeonhole players into specific and often absurd styles. They don't create variety in fact : you have no other choice than rushing on those stupid maps. Frozen Temple is exactly what a good "rush map" should be : the short rush distance makes for instance 1 base play very strong in TvP as we saw from recent KR games, but it doesn't make them the only way to play the map.
I still have hope Blizzard come to their senses and add back the rocks before the season begins or 1 week in. Maybe they'll even remove Dasan if that map just doesn't work.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw),
Personally, I agree with removing all 8 of those destructibles. They were more in the way than creating interesting dynamics.
Yes, removing the "backdoor" (in quotations due to it's small distance from the other choke) natural rocks does help zerg. But maybe they kinda needed it. T/P will have to wait a tad longer to take their natural; at which point their third is basically free too. This is unlike any other map in LotV so far (Blizzard is emphasizing different build orders on different maps), and worth a try IMO. I would argue that the distance [zerg] army must travel to simultaneously pressure your natural backdoor and your third and end up reinforcing each other if things go wrong is adequately long, in favor of the defender.
I kinda like the few I see better. Making the center monorail into 1 was probably the lore-logical way of doing it. Nat decal looks nice. Those center decals were distracting.
What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Later is a good idea. <3
Personally, I would strongly prefer that Blizzard just communicate their changes to the mapmakers before they're finalized. A lot of the changes feel unnecessary without any context as to why they were made.
And it shouldn't matter whether you think the changes are better, this should still be done ^^.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw),
Personally, I agree with removing all 8 of those destructibles. They were more in the way than creating interesting dynamics.
Yes, removing the "backdoor" (in quotations due to it's small distance from the other choke) natural rocks does help zerg. But maybe they kinda needed it. T/P will have to wait a tad longer to take their natural; at which point their third is basically free too. This is unlike any other map in LotV so far (Blizzard is emphasizing different build orders on different maps), and worth a try IMO. I would argue that the distance [zerg] army must travel to simultaneously pressure your natural backdoor and your third and end up reinforcing each other if things go wrong is adequately long, in favor of the defender.
they changed the tileset substantially,
I only see the new low ground texture, and it looks better IMO.
and they even redid almost all the doodads.
I kinda like the few I see better. Making the center monorail into 1 was probably the lore-logical way of doing it. Nat decal looks nice. Those center decals were distracting.
Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder.
You shouldn't be surprised.
What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Later is a good idea. <3
There's the Devil's advocate. You already know how I feel about this. Personally you may like it, and Blizzard has every right to do it, but it doesn't matter. The best way to alienate your community is to make sudden changes without explaining why or communicating about them. It doesn't matter who's "right". If I can't trust Blizzard, I'm not motivated to try and make maps for them. If you never see another map from me again, this is going to be why.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
After the last 6 years of SC2, did anybody really expect Blizzard to take community feedback on board?
On July 08 2016 00:20 [PkF] Wire wrote: @Barrin no, especially in LotV, a hard to take nat is just not an option.
I did not call it "hard to take", whatever you mean by that. Don't put words into my mouth.
it's hard to take regardless of what you call it lol and again, you can theorycraft for how long you want, but there hasn't been a single remotely decent map with an open natural in last 4 years of the game existing. Economy in Starcraft isn't linear and having to take a delayed 2nd base is a death sentence.
On July 08 2016 00:20 [PkF] Wire wrote: @Barrin no, especially in LotV, a hard to take nat is just not an option.
I did not call it "hard to take", whatever you mean by that. Don't put words into my mouth.
it's hard to take regardless of what you call it lol
I can certainly imagine much harder. And more things to consider before calling it a death sentence.
and again, you can theorycraft for how long you want, but there hasn't been a single remotely decent map with an open natural in last 4 years of the game existing.
Let's say this is true.. (1) There haven't been that many good maps to begin with. (2) That doesn't mean it can't be done. Especially because of (1).
Economy in Starcraft isn't linear
How informative.
Your point being ___?
and having to take a delayed 2nd base is a death sentence.
If you say so.
Abstract argument for its own sake isn't adding anything to the discussion. Furthermore, this shouldn't be an issue to begin with, because I didn't design my map that way. The entire design of Galactic Process revolves around its late game, which is predicated on a stable early game, and Blizzard destroyed that. If you seek to generate positive discussion, direct it at Blizzard.
As you know, Blizzard has something to say about that.
Try to claim the IP and I think another mapmaker would have something to say about that, too.
We get it Barrin, you're right. You win the argument. Now tell me how that justifies anything they did. Or how that makes me want to keep making maps for them. Take all the time you need, the longer the better.
On July 08 2016 03:03 Scarlett` wrote: dasan is actually even worse than in the map contest; with the new chokes in the middle im not sure you can win a zvt or zvp game ever after 5minutes
On July 08 2016 03:31 Barrin wrote: I for one hope you do.
I appreciate that, but one of the few reasons I even made Galactic Process and the others is because I still held hope that I could put my map on ladder. Now that I've finally done it, and Blizzard has taken what I've made and turned it into rather something else, why should ladder still be a goal for me? It doesn't feel like I accomplished anything now.
Lemme get this straight, i havent read everything : you created a map that was accepted for the ladder, but then blizzard went and changed it without even warning you? Well that's shitty, even from blizzard.
So not only did they put the absolutely terrible dasan station which is basically saying "you only have 2 vetos for next season", not only did they go through with the queen buff that wasn't wanted by most of the community, but now they start fucking intellectual proriety over? Thanks blizzard, real classy once again.
On July 08 2016 04:27 JackONeill wrote: but now they start fucking intellectual proriety over?
Well technically the EULA states anything made in the editor is owned by them, though unsure of how enforceable that is through law.
It's mostly just disrespectfull, but worse is fully changing out how the map plays through making the natural an open one, essentially Daedelusing it up
just noticed they changed the direction you go around the outside of Dasan Station too. It used to be open to moving behind your own gold base but now the rocks block that direction and it's open to the path that goes around to your opponent's gold
On July 08 2016 03:31 Barrin wrote: I for one hope you do.
I appreciate that, but one of the few reasons I even made Galactic Process and the others is because I still held hope that I could put my map on ladder. Now that I've finally done it, and Blizzard has taken what I've made and turned it into rather something else, why should ladder still be a goal for me? It doesn't feel like I accomplished anything now.
Here's my take.
Aesthetic reworks are common for community maps. If there's a legitimate QA reason to change things then that's something we just have to accept. Blizzard can't always have this done through outsourcing to the map maker because (a) time constraints (b) we don't know if the community fix will fix the QA problem. Regretable, but understandable.
Gamplay changes should be off limits, PARTICULARLY for this TLMC where we had an extensive rework/feedback process (more than any other season). Changing a map in the face of that feedback says either (a) the map team knows balance better than pros/community (b) the map team wanted the map to play out differently than intended. In the case of (b) don't betray the map maker's vision and just pick another map. You don't have a mandate to choose a map the community voted for if you're going to change key features of the map thereby fundamentally changing the map the communtiy voted for.
On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: [*]Gamplay changes should be off limits, PARTICULARLY for this TLMC where we had an extensive rework/feedback process (more than any other season). Changing a map in the face of that feedback says either (a) the map team knows balance better than pros/community (b) the map team wanted the map to play out differently than intended. In the case of (b) don't betray the map makers vision and just pick another map.
This is my biggest gripe with the change. The contest had clear categorization of all maps. This map was fully intended to be a standard macro map. That's the reason it was voted into the top 4. But that's not what we are going to get now. With the open natural it's at its best non-standard. That's not what people voted for.
If you don't want a standard map, choose a different one, ffs. They had so many options. There were multiple non-standard maps in TLMC I would rather play than broken Galactic Process.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
Dasan station shouldn't be a problem, but since silly shit is still in the game, how do you defend as terran a pylon rush on two gates? How do you defend a 3rax reaper as zerg? How do you defend... whatever MSC doesn't kill in early game?
Dasan Station has a problem siege tanks and units of similar size cannot go anywhere at all without breaking rocks or having transport :/... idk if anyone else has reported this it seems like a bug if not its kind of a bad design. Aside from that great map.
On July 08 2016 06:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: While i agree that blizzard shouldn't just change gameplay mechanics of a map, it's still a huge overreaction going on here imo.
Well, they turned it into a different type of map than the one that was top 5 in TLMC, and imo it was a change for the worse. I'll probably veto this even though the original concept was fine. Because walling this natural is so unreasonable.
The Great Wall of China isn't enough to cover that.
On July 08 2016 06:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: While i agree that blizzard shouldn't just change gameplay mechanics of a map, it's still a huge overreaction going on here imo.
Well, they turned it into a different type of map than the one that was top 5 in TLMC, and imo it was a change for the worse. I'll probably veto this even though the original concept was fine. Because walling this natural is so unreasonable.
The Great Wall of China isn't enough to cover that.
Sure, but after i read the first reactions here i thought it would be way worse. There definitely should be some form of communication with the map creator (at least about the gameplay change), but some comments are borderline ridiculous (including twitter responses) Maybe Blizzard will actually add the rocks, that might be the best form of actions
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
While it's a very interesting map from a design and viewer perspective, there's one thing with that Dasan stands out to me, and that is if it is also fun to play, which I believe should be the main function of the map, especially when it comes to ladder, and why I consider this map in particular to be more fit for showmatches/tournaments rather than regular play.
Reception of the map during the testing tournament wasn't all to positive, which leaves me with question marks about its future on the ladder.
On July 08 2016 06:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Maybe Blizzard will actually add the rocks, that might be the best form of actions
hopefully...
They have to, right? I mean this is possibly unplayable for Protoss vs Zerg, it's ugly for Terran vs Zerg, and I don't think this is okay for Terran vs Protoss either, but every Protoss would veto this because of PvZ so nobody could ever know for sure.
On July 08 2016 06:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: While i agree that blizzard shouldn't just change gameplay mechanics of a map, it's still a huge overreaction going on here imo.
Well, they turned it into a different type of map than the one that was top 5 in TLMC, and imo it was a change for the worse. I'll probably veto this even though the original concept was fine. Because walling this natural is so unreasonable.
The Great Wall of China isn't enough to cover that.
Sure, but after i read the first reactions here i thought it would be way worse. There definitely should be some form of communication with the map creator (at least about the gameplay change), but some comments are borderline ridiculous (including twitter responses) Maybe Blizzard will actually add the rocks, that might be the best form of actions
Did we have an official statement from Blizard, cause it wouldn't be the first time there s a last minute hotfix on a map, the rocks could have been removed by mistake, who knows?
Anyway, people are kinda over reacting, a simple "hey blizz what's up with the rocks?" would have been a much more mature attitude, that twitter and forums shitstorm just make people ranting hard to be taken seriously...
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
While it's a very interesting map from a design and viewer perspective, there's one thing with that Dasan stands out to me, and that is if it is also fun to play, which I believe should be the main function of the map, especially when it comes to ladder, and why I consider this map in particular to be more fit for showmatches/tournaments rather than regular play.
Reception of the map during the testing tournament wasn't all to positive, which leaves me with question marks about its future on the ladder.
While I agree maps should be fun to play, I think a lot of players think it won't be fun (or don't think its fun) because you can't just copy and paste meta builds on the map. Since WCS will (hopefully) force the map's meta to be worked out we can get a better assessment of whether its fun or not once that happens.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
I saw all the games, and I really hated how awkward the games got past all the early rushes. As for Judgement I think most people aren't aware that it is one of the new GSL maps...
On July 08 2016 06:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Maybe Blizzard will actually add the rocks, that might be the best form of actions
hopefully...
They have to, right? I mean this is possibly unplayable for Protoss vs Zerg, it's ugly for Terran vs Zerg, and I don't think this is okay for Terran vs Protoss either, but every Protoss would veto this because of PvZ so nobody could ever know for sure.
Only the Z match-ups would be problematic I think. If anything the rocks help T since you can park a tank behind the rocks. I would have no problems playing PvT on this version I think. But the lack of rocks in the corridor just destroys the Z mus I think (even ZvZ !). I mean no, maybe it doesn't destroy them ; after all Lerilak Crest was playableish... But it kills the intention of the map, and that's extremely disrespectful.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
I saw all the games, and I really hated how awkward the games got past all the early rushes. As for Judgement I think most people aren't aware that it is one of the new GSL maps...
Probably true, I think you would only know about it if you watched Group A.
To be brutally honest, I remember when the map was posted on TL a little while back and I just skimmed it because it was clearly so mediocre. Seems like they are really hit and miss with picking their new maps recently.
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
Pretty much. I've never seen so much hate for a map in such a short time, and like you said I really don't think most people even watched the games or have played on the map.
If we're just going to judge things based on looking at the overview only, then I honestly think the new GSL map (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/510324-4-rqm-judgement) should be getting more hate than Dasan. It's literally 4 bases behind 1 defensive position, with the 5th being pretty close too. Yes some air/drop harass is possible but in general it's just so deathbally and poorly designed.
I saw all the games, and I really hated how awkward the games got past all the early rushes. As for Judgement I think most people aren't aware that it is one of the new GSL maps...
Probably true, I think you would only know about it if you watched Group A.
To be brutally honest, I remember when the map was posted on TL a little while back and I just skimmed it because it was clearly so mediocre. Seems like they are really hit and miss with picking their new maps recently.
Yeah. Same.
Korean mapmakers really seem to love Dusk Towers somehow, and Judgement is basically a worse and four player spin on the concept.
What about a BOMBTL* "bring old maps back to life" map contest? i'd love to see old maps "reinvented" for LOTV. nostalgia, the look and feel, fame and fortune.. and most of all good games. scrap station, blistering sands, lost temple, kulas revine, metalopolis.. (i'm fine with skipping steppes of war).
make them bigger, LOTV-compatible, better, "balanced" (...) but keep their soul.
*edit: nope, not a hidden threat x) just coincidence
On July 08 2016 07:57 Barrin wrote: *They shouldn't have to throw out an otherwise good map just because its maker wanted one particular (albeit major) feature to be this particular way.
That's a rather sinister way of saying that Blizzard should be able to do whatever they want.
Either way, I don't think you understand. Nobody is disputing intellectual property, or whether or not Blizzard is allowed to do this. They're not talking about what is legally correct (which is what you keep talking about), they're talking about what is morally correct, because as this is a community affair, the morals - or lack thereof - that I see at play are a huge factor. If you're trying to build, or even retain(!) your community, what's legally correct doesn't matter for shit, people care about how you treat them. Put the legal doctrine away.
And honestly, no I don't want that map on ladder. It's not mine, and I wouldn't have submitted a map like that to TLMC in the first place.
Cry me a fucking river. The only major change they did was remove a rock by the natural. Sure, it's weird they did that but for you to bitch as much as you are and saying it's not the same map and complaining up a storm is ridiculous. I'm sorry instead of using a shit load of Xel'naga hull reactors with a ton of lights they instead switched it up to the Curbs to increase performance. I'm sorry instead of keeping all that random border art that for at least most of it, you can't even see in game due to boundaries they changed it up, once again to increase performance. I'm sorry they used Shakuras tiles instead of whatever the hell xel'naga ones you had.
The only change. The absolute only change they did that people SHOULD be complaining about is removing the rocks by the backdoor. But instead of people mainly questioning that decision you're trying to raise all our pitchforks saying Blizzard is so disrespectful by "so many uncalled-for changes" Last I knew, fixing performance for the majority of the player base isn't uncalled for. And who knows, with the way blizzard has been recently, they might even do a quick fix by adding the rocks back in before the season fully starts. Maybe they'll let it play out for a week before changing it. They use to never do map changes at all and at least in LoTV they have done some, they have been better with communicating, and even though the balance changes are very minimal at times, they are at least constantly patching to game to try to better balance races.
Blizzard has always changed up aesthetics on maps, whether it be changing up the textures or changing up doodads because guess what, people play SC2 with shitty computers and nothing (besides latency problems) is worst then playing on a map that has massive FPS problems. They have their programs, they have their data, they know what their user base can and can not run and changing up map aesthetics to better accommodate those players shouldn't be something we should bitch about.
But alas, instead of just being happy that you got your map on ladder and now you can see many of your favorite professional players play games on it, you'd rather deny that, bitch, complain, shout names & generally just be disrespectful right back towards Blizzard.
On July 08 2016 07:57 Barrin wrote: *They shouldn't have to throw out an otherwise good map just because its maker wanted one particular (albeit major) feature to be this particular way.
That's a rather sinister way of saying that Blizzard should be able to do whatever they want.
Either way, I don't think you understand. Nobody is disputing intellectual property, or whether or not Blizzard is allowed to do this. They're not talking about what is legally correct (which is what you keep talking about), they're talking about what is morally correct, because as this is a community affair, the morals - or lack thereof - that I see at play are a huge factor. If you're trying to build, or even retain(!) your community, what's legally correct doesn't matter for shit, people care about how you treat them. Put the legal doctrine away.
And honestly, no I don't want that map on ladder. It's not mine, and I wouldn't have submitted a map like that to TLMC in the first place.
Maybe it's just about seeing the larger picture, maybe your version was better "alone" but would not have been such a great addition to the map pool in regard of the others, and that new version of blizzard will make the whole map pool overall more enjoyable.
So in the end, it could be just like your map need to be adapted to fit in, or not be choosen at all.
Either way, it's a win win situation for you : if blizzard failed, you can keep your martyr attitude and have a mapmaker lives matter movement start to defend you, if the new version is actually better, then you'll still call it yoru map and get some chicks at every barcrafts and nerds will be like "oh he has his map" "it's said he crafted it himself, from another map"
On July 08 2016 05:04 Plexa wrote: On Dasan Station. I don't think people actually watched games on Dasan. The first impression of the map was poor due to a bug (which was fixed) which allowed a silly bunker rush. Most games on the map were intense and non-meta. Yes people hate non-meta maps but it's an interesting experiment that could lead to some really cool games (and if nothing else, the map making community stands to learn a lot from it). Here are some examples
And yes, you can have silly games like Snute vs uThermal but dumb stuff like that shouldn't work between equally skilled players. And yes, rushing is strong like uThermal vs Nerchio but since you're not forced to take the gold as your natural this kind of rush isn't necessarily broken; but it is an effective counter to the fast expand to the gold.
While it's a very interesting map from a design and viewer perspective, there's one thing with that Dasan stands out to me, and that is if it is also fun to play, which I believe should be the main function of the map, especially when it comes to ladder, and why I consider this map in particular to be more fit for showmatches/tournaments rather than regular play.
Reception of the map during the testing tournament wasn't all to positive, which leaves me with question marks about its future on the ladder.
While I agree maps should be fun to play, I think a lot of players think it won't be fun (or don't think its fun) because you can't just copy and paste meta builds on the map. Since WCS will (hopefully) force the map's meta to be worked out we can get a better assessment of whether its fun or not once that happens.
I don't like weird maps because I just do a gimmick on them and collect my win. It's not very fun. Like endion, I'll do a 1 1/2 base queen ling drop in zvz, and I've literally never lost doing it. It's a weird build, no one knows the timings for it, so they just lose to it.
Cry me a fucking river. The only major change they did was remove a rock by the natural. Sure, it's weird they did that but for you to bitch as much as you are and saying it's not the same map and complaining up a storm is ridiculous. I'm sorry instead of using a shit load of Xel'naga hull reactors with a ton of lights they instead switched it up to the Curbs to increase performance. I'm sorry instead of keeping all that random border art that for at least most of it, you can't even see in game due to boundaries they changed it up, once again to increase performance. I'm sorry they used Shakuras tiles instead of whatever the hell xel'naga ones you had.
The only change. The absolute only change they did that people SHOULD be complaining about is removing the rocks by the backdoor. But instead of people mainly questioning that decision you're trying to raise all our pitchforks saying Blizzard is so disrespectful by "so many uncalled-for changes" Last I knew, fixing performance for the majority of the player base isn't uncalled for. And who knows, with the way blizzard has been recently, they might even do a quick fix by adding the rocks back in before the season fully starts. Maybe they'll let it play out for a week before changing it. They use to never do map changes at all and at least in LoTV they have done some, they have been better with communicating, and even though the balance changes are very minimal at times, they are at least constantly patching to game to try to better balance races.
Blizzard has always changed up aesthetics on maps, whether it be changing up the textures or changing up doodads because guess what, people play SC2 with shitty computers and nothing (besides latency problems) is worst then playing on a map that has massive FPS problems. They have their programs, they have their data, they know what their user base can and can not run and changing up map aesthetics to better accommodate those players shouldn't be something we should bitch about.
But alas, instead of just being happy that you got your map on ladder and now you can see many of your favorite professional players play games on it, you'd rather deny that, bitch, complain, shout names & generally just be disrespectful right back towards Blizzard.
My map was changed significantly, in both aesthetics and functional layout, without so much as telling me. When Blizzard sneaks something like that in and still wants to credit me as the author, yes I'm going to say something.
Hypothetically, imagine if Blizzard said they were going to make some balance change, like give Siege Tanks +10 damage, and then when they do the balance update you see that the Thor is getting +10 damage instead. And instead of justifying why they're doing something different, they keep crediting the community for its feedback. Wouldn't you be asking some very pointed questions at that juncture?
I'm sorry I got a map on ladder and am less than thrilled about it, but I have every right. I would have liked nothing more than to be all smiles at the thought of making ladder after 5 years of this, but I see something happening that I can't just ignore. Check yourself before you talk to me like that again.
Cry me a fucking river. The only major change they did was remove a rock by the natural. Sure, it's weird they did that but for you to bitch as much as you are and saying it's not the same map and complaining up a storm is ridiculous. I'm sorry instead of using a shit load of Xel'naga hull reactors with a ton of lights they instead switched it up to the Curbs to increase performance. I'm sorry instead of keeping all that random border art that for at least most of it, you can't even see in game due to boundaries they changed it up, once again to increase performance. I'm sorry they used Shakuras tiles instead of whatever the hell xel'naga ones you had.
The only change. The absolute only change they did that people SHOULD be complaining about is removing the rocks by the backdoor. But instead of people mainly questioning that decision you're trying to raise all our pitchforks saying Blizzard is so disrespectful by "so many uncalled-for changes" Last I knew, fixing performance for the majority of the player base isn't uncalled for. And who knows, with the way blizzard has been recently, they might even do a quick fix by adding the rocks back in before the season fully starts. Maybe they'll let it play out for a week before changing it. They use to never do map changes at all and at least in LoTV they have done some, they have been better with communicating, and even though the balance changes are very minimal at times, they are at least constantly patching to game to try to better balance races.
Blizzard has always changed up aesthetics on maps, whether it be changing up the textures or changing up doodads because guess what, people play SC2 with shitty computers and nothing (besides latency problems) is worst then playing on a map that has massive FPS problems. They have their programs, they have their data, they know what their user base can and can not run and changing up map aesthetics to better accommodate those players shouldn't be something we should bitch about.
But alas, instead of just being happy that you got your map on ladder and now you can see many of your favorite professional players play games on it, you'd rather deny that, bitch, complain, shout names & generally just be disrespectful right back towards Blizzard.
My map was changed significantly, in both aesthetics and functional layout, without so much as telling me. When Blizzard sneaks something like that in and still wants to credit me as the author, yes I'm going to say something.
Hypothetically, imagine if Blizzard said they were going to make some balance change, like give Siege Tanks +10 damage, and then when they do the balance update you see that the Thor is getting +10 damage instead. And instead of justifying why they're doing something different, they keep crediting the community for its feedback. Wouldn't you be asking some very pointed questions at that juncture?
I'm sorry I got a map on ladder and am less than thrilled about it, but I have every right. I would have liked nothing more than to be all smiles at the thought of making ladder after 5 years of this, but I see something happening that I can't just ignore. Check yourself before you talk to me like that again.
Except the layout isn't significantly changed. The only change they did that has any difference on how the map plays out at all is the rocks being removed at the natural. This could easily have been a mistake on their end. Or maybe they had tons of internal testing and thought it played out better. It's a simple change that, as in at least LOTV, Blizzard has done before with maps. (Adding rocks, changing ramps, changing minerals) Hell, it might even still get changed before the season even starts. LE edition still is Version 0.1.
Regarding aesthetic changes, Blizzard had to roll the map out for the new season. All the light emitting doodads obviously caused less then sub-par performance with internal testing, so they changed them out to less performance heavy doodads. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that at all and the fact you're calling it unbelievable and a ton of disrespect is laughable.
There is a reason every non-mapper that gets invited to the Map Cave ends up leaving shortly after. The majority of the people in there are assholes who, at least in their minds, are never wrong and will just argue and bitch just to argue and bitch.
On July 08 2016 10:23 SidianTheBard wrote: Except the layout isn't significantly changed. The only change they did that has any difference on how the map plays out at all is the rocks being removed at the natural. This could easily have been a mistake on their end. Or maybe they had tons of internal testing and thought it played out better. It's a simple change that, as in at least LOTV, Blizzard has done before with maps. (Adding rocks, changing ramps, changing minerals) Hell, it might even still get changed before the season even starts. LE edition still is Version 0.1.
Regarding aesthetic changes, Blizzard had to roll the map out for the new season. All the light emitting doodads obviously caused less then sub-par performance with internal testing, so they changed them out to less performance heavy doodads. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that at all and the fact you're calling it unbelievable and a ton of disrespect is laughable.
There is a reason every non-mapper that gets invited to the Map Cave ends up leaving shortly after. The majority of the people in there are assholes who, at least in their minds, are never wrong and will just argue and bitch just to argue and bitch.
That 1 rock is the difference between a more normal natural expansion and one that invites all kind of aggression, and makes taking it harder, changing the nature of the map. That's kind of a big deal. Look at it as a player, the difference that you're downplaying is huge when you're actually in game.
As for aesthetics, ignore the low ground trim doodads, how do you explain the actual change in tileset? The reworking of other doodads all across the map? Is it all in the name of performance? To what extent am I allowed to use doodads to decorate my map? Or should I just not bother anymore? I'm inclined to take the last option at this point.
Also lastly, thank you for lumping me in with Ragoo and co.'s piss-poor excuse for mapmaking diplomacy.
"Waaaah I can't do my uber meta opener into a 25minute sim city game!" ^ basically what everybody hates about Dasan lol rip But then again Team Liquid wouldn't be complete without you guys <3
Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
On July 08 2016 06:23 JackONeill wrote: Dasan station shouldn't be a problem, but since silly shit is still in the game, how do you defend as terran a pylon rush on two gates? How do you defend a 3rax reaper as zerg? How do you defend... whatever MSC doesn't kill in early game?
Play some actual games on it and come back xD I can't wait to see your surprised face. You think the maker hasn't thought of this? Enekh is an experienced mapper (since BW) and knows what is strong and weak on this map. (He was worrying about siege tank drops being too strong for example.) However, after his talks with Jacky_ and the final submission to Blizzard I have NEVER heard him worry about early game all ins being broken.
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
I just noticed this myself. If the changes to my map or Enekh's map were as minor as on Apotheosis, I couldn't really complain, but this is pretty serious.
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
I just noticed this myself. If the changes to my map or Enekh's map were as minor as on Apotheosis, I couldn't really complain, but this is pretty serious.
Enekh made that change himself before the final vote didn't he?
On July 08 2016 10:45 Shellshock wrote: Aren't the new paths on Dasan Station a problem? At least people were trying to take the gold bases before but now you can easily just walk behind the mineral patches of your opponent's gold because there are no rocks blocking that direction so what's the point of ever taking it?
Might have to do with how a more standard macro game was wanted;; kinda weird that the maker hasn't said anything about it, but looking at NewSunShine I think the maker himself may be oblivious;;
I just noticed this myself. If the changes to my map or Enekh's map were as minor as on Apotheosis, I couldn't really complain, but this is pretty serious.
Enekh made that change himself before the final vote didn't he?
I went back and checked, you're right, sorry. Don't know how much I agree with the change either way, but you're right, that was him and not Blizzard.
On July 07 2016 08:11 NewSunshine wrote: I don't know what map they've titled Galactic Process, but it's not my map, that's for sure. They made so many uncalled-for changes, they removed the backdoor rocks at the natural (have fun with that btw), they changed the tileset substantially, and they even redid almost all the doodads. Nobody said a word to me at any point about this, and they should be glad they didn't, because I wouldn't put this map on the ladder. What a supreme gesture of disrespect, to take something I so meticulously crafted, and take a hacksaw to it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but I'm shaking right now. Maybe later.
Blizzard can have their e-sport.
Blizzard doesn't realize that eSports was created by the community, not them. They try to take it and slap the "eSports" TM on it.
Sometimes I feel as though a common collective of eSports enthusiasts need to take Blizzard to court to remind them of this. I mean really, MLB isn't going to approach Johnny, his classmates, his parents and their parents and sue them for playing a game of baseball, recording it, and putting it on youtube at the same time that the world finals for MLB is going on. Likewise, MLB isn't going to approach the creator of the wooden baseball bat or the jerseys and say, "We don't like the colors of your jerseys. We're changing them for you."
Why should it be different for Starcraft eSports? Yeah, I know it's in the EULA, but I feel as though we as gamers hold the right to remind Blizzard that we pay for their product and we hold the right to use it however we want after we pay for it so long as we are not committing blatant or something that literally detriments Blizzard Entertainment.
Either way, I don't think you understand. Nobody is disputing intellectual property, or whether or not Blizzard is allowed to do this. They're not talking about what is legally correct (which is what you keep talking about), they're talking about what is morally correct, because as this is a community affair, the morals - or lack thereof - that I see at play are a huge factor. If you're trying to build, or even retain(!) your community, what's legally correct doesn't matter for shit, people care about how you treat them. Put the legal doctrine away.
What you quoted was solely my own personal moral view, afaik.
I wasn't particularly addressing what you quoted there, but rather the way you've been responding throughout the thread. You keep talking about how everything is cool and I have no right to complaint, because in the EULA, Blizzard "is correct", when nobody but you is arguing about the EULA. If you want to strawman my point by linking it to an unrelated quote, I can simply not continue discussing this with you, because at this point you've contributed little more to the discussion than a troll.
Maybe I'm out of line by making a fuss like I have, maybe I've just had the wrong idea about what to expect from mapmaking. I was never looking for money, fame, or anything ridiculous like that, I just wanted to make levels in a game that people could play on. I've been treating it like an art form, and so I've been expecting a level of artistic integrity, I've been expecting for a mapmaker's work to receive respect. And while, looking back now, the changes aren't deadly, it still served to break down this ideal I held in my heart. I thought, even while SC2 and its map scene are in decline, that I could still express myself through my work. Maybe I was expecting too much.
If reading my posts made your eyes roll, I'm sorry, I don't have anything left at this point. I'm just done.
On July 08 2016 13:29 NewSunshine wrote: I thought, even while SC2 and its map scene are in decline, that I could still express myself through my work. Maybe I was expecting too much.
There are plenty of us that recognize how important map makers are to esports going back to the beginning of Brood War and how bad it was for them at the beginning of SC2. I'm at least with you on this.
On July 08 2016 13:29 NewSunshine wrote: I've been treating it like an art form
I - not a mapmaker on my own - share your point of view, to me a map is a piece of art and no second party should change anything without asking for permission first. Imaging a gallery owner would change a painting before showing it in an exhibition. Well, "Van Gogh's Roses" would be getting a lot of attraction, but I'm quite sure not many people would be happy if the sunflowers were replaced
On July 08 2016 13:29 NewSunshine wrote: I've been treating it like an art form
I - not a mapmaker on my own - share your point of view, to me a map is a piece of art and no second party should change anything without asking for permission first. Imaging a gallery owner would change a painting before showing it in an exhibition. Well, "Van Gogh's Roses" would be getting a lot of attraction, but I'm quite sure not many people would be happy if the sunflowers were replaced
But Blizzard has the final say, it's out of my hands. It's just like I said, I expected too much. I didn't expect reaching my goals would feel like this. It hurts more than all 6 of the TLMC's I lost put together.
On July 08 2016 13:29 NewSunshine wrote: I thought, even while SC2 and its map scene are in decline, that I could still express myself through my work. Maybe I was expecting too much.
There are plenty of us that recognize how important map makers are to esports going back to the beginning of Brood War and how bad it was for them at the beginning of SC2. I'm at least with you on this.
Well said. Don't despair NewSunshine, your map is awesome.
On July 08 2016 06:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Maybe Blizzard will actually add the rocks, that might be the best form of actions
hopefully...
They have to, right? I mean this is possibly unplayable for Protoss vs Zerg, it's ugly for Terran vs Zerg, and I don't think this is okay for Terran vs Protoss either, but every Protoss would veto this because of PvZ so nobody could ever know for sure.
Only the Z match-ups would be problematic I think. If anything the rocks help T since you can park a tank behind the rocks. I would have no problems playing PvT on this version I think. But the lack of rocks in the corridor just destroys the Z mus I think (even ZvZ !). I mean no, maybe it doesn't destroy them ; after all Lerilak Crest was playableish... But it kills the intention of the map, and that's extremely disrespectful.
The wall you'd have to build to keep out adepts is pretty intense. You can't just put a smaller wall at the ramp and one at the pathway and be done, you gotta build this huge, stupid and expensive wall around your entire natural.
Which I assume would go for PvP as well, although I don't think adept all-ins are as common there.
@NewSunshine, as I said multiple times before, I really dislike that they changed the underlying philosophy of your map without even bothering asking for permission ; that being said, I think the map will see lategame play at least in all P match-ups since you can actually wall quite well vs Z, this way :
I don't know if you can see the whole thing on the picture, but we'll just have to build gate + core on the low ground, and then with a well placed pylon behind the gas you can be fully walled with just 1 3hex building. Of course it's not an ideal wall since 1/ the Nexus and two pylons are part of it 2/ the mining at the second natural gas becomes slightly suboptimal, but it's far better than not being able to wall at all.
So overall I think the map can live with the change and still see the awesome lategame maneuvering it was designed for.
EDIT : I'm doing tests right now, New Gettysburg is tricky as hell to wall as well, and pathfinding with air blockers is REALLY shit.
The natural on Galactic Process is wallable with 2 pylons, 3 gates (or 2 gates 1 cyber) just like on Endion, with the difference that both pylons will be exposed, the second pylon needs to be in a very precise spot and you don't have the collapsible rocks to protect you. The rocks do not impact the way you wall in, but not having them definitely makes scouting way harder. I'd say it's playable, unlike what Daedalus Point was like for instance, but on ladder especially Zerg is going to do all-in a lot, and win a lot with it, before Protoss can get most builds going (adept timings included):
edit: @wire, are you sure one pylon is enough to block the way behind the assimilator? it didn't look like it to me, and it definitely doesn't work on Endion.
On July 08 2016 17:45 Teoita wrote: The natural on Galactic Process is wallable with 2 pylons, 3 gates (or 2 gates 1 cyber) just like on Endion, with the difference that both pylons will be exposed, the second pylon needs to be in a very precise spot and you don't have the collapsible rocks to protect you. The rocks do not impact the way you wall in, but not having them definitely makes scouting way harder. I'd say it's playable, unlike what Daedalus Point was like for instance, but on ladder especially Zerg is going to do all-in a lot, and win a lot with it, before Protoss can get most builds going (adept timings included):
edit: @wire, are you sure one pylon is enough to block the way behind the assimilator? it didn't look like it to me, and it definitely doesn't work on Endion.
I double checked, it works. I agree with what you say, it makes the map harder to play but playable.
Galactic Process looks very similar to Cloud Kingdom. Good thing as this one was one of the best map ever made in sc2. We will see... Dasan Station is a joke. TvT, early zerglings rush, Pylons rush, 3 entries in the main,... so much fun. The others look good but sad to say goodbye to Dusk Tower
Cloud Kingdom was my all time favourite map, but tbh it got destroyed by Medivac Boost and I'm sure Terrans would say MsCore->Blink as well. Excited to see how this one goes.
Sad to say, but with a natural like that will be even worse than Lerilak crest with 2 attack paths. Sorry for the mapmaker, but this is going to be one of my veto's.
On July 08 2016 19:33 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Sad to say, but with a natural like that will be even worse than Lerilak crest with 2 attack paths.
Yeah, Cloud Kingdom had a closed natural, easiest to defend than on Galactic . This path all around the map, from B2 to B4, looks pretty funny. Sneaky strats incoming on this map
Yeah, Cloud Kingdom had a closed natural, easiest to defend than on Galactic
9-square wide from edge to edge.
Teo's wall is 13 squares wide and uses the diagonal nexus in the wall so it's twice as big of a wall - You need 2 extra pylons to complete the wall but this doubled width also makes cannons, forcefields and overcharges far weaker.
I actually don't think Galactic and CK will play THAT similarly. Even if the rocks were there at the nat backdoor, there are some pretty key differences in pathing and where bases/ramps/rocks are etc.
I do not like that they left two of my veto maps - Frost and Frozen temple. Both are unplayable if you play mech. So I hope that only one veto is needed for the new maps.
It would be great if there were a single season where 3 vetoes were sufficient. I always feel I am one veto short from getting a decent experience on the ladder.
On July 08 2016 17:58 FromtheAbysS wrote: Galactic Process looks very similar to Cloud Kingdom. Good thing as this one was one of the best map ever made in sc2. We will see... Dasan Station is a joke. TvT, early zerglings rush, Pylons rush, 3 entries in the main,... so much fun. The others look good but sad to say goodbye to Dusk Tower
And 6 entries to the main with blink stalkers ... what a nightmare it would be if we couldn't veto it.
reasonable things (cough rocks cough) got removed beforehand, something tells me unreasonable (untested, buggy, overlooked, [insert rant here]...) things will get removed afterwards just as well.
On July 10 2016 02:42 geokilla wrote: So has Blizzard said anything about changing the maps like that?
Here's the closest thing you're likely to get:
We typically make adjustments to community-created maps before they go on the ladder, but this was a case where we could have done better in communicating with NewSunshine about the changes we wanted to make. We identified where the breakdown happened internally and will take steps to ensure this doesn’t happen again after future contests. In the end, we’re all invested in having the best possible maps for players. Having a dialogue when possible as we iterate together on the maps contributes to this goal, so we’ll execute better on that going forward.
It sounds a bit canned as a response, though it's better than nothing. I personally don't have my hopes up, but I have to make peace with the situation either way.
Ok i've played those past few days on those maps, my opinion about terran matchup :
Dasan station may look bad, but if it stays only one season it might be ok to play on it, the metagame will shift quickly, tempest/adept might be too strong in TvP on this one because of the third base having gold and the very rush short distance, + tempest can be supported by stalker, TvZ looks very hard to call and we will probably never see a normal game on it
Apotheosis : I have honestly no idea why people think it would look good, the map is way way too big, and you can also take a third base as a gold, as you know "prion terraces" was already a very unfavored terran map because of the third being a gold, here we have this feature + the map is insanely big, which makes it very unfavored for terran
Galactic process : A few weird ideas about this map, but it have some cool feature and it's actually the only "balanced" and well thought map, may be balanced in TvP and slightly favored for zerg because of the 4th being maybe slightly too safe, but looks like a fair map
New gettysburg : The special features of the map are interesting and ok, but the layout of the first 4 base is way too safe, which makes it very hard to push or harass, you basically force a mid-lategame on this map, i doubt it will be any good
Considering the current metagame and the recent buff, i think it will be a very rough map pool for terran For the mirror match up every map are normal, except for dasan station that will give insanely random TvT, that will remain more on lucky drop timing than skill
On July 10 2016 19:14 [PkF] Wire wrote: Isn't Apotheosis going to be pretty imba in ZvP with the easy gold ?
The gold isn't that easy, since you can knock down the rocks to cut if off from the rest of the bases, and also shoot at the workers from the low ground.
On July 10 2016 19:14 [PkF] Wire wrote: Isn't Apotheosis going to be pretty imba in ZvP with the easy gold ?
The gold isn't that easy, since you can knock down the rocks to cut if off from the rest of the bases, and also shoot at the workers from the low ground.
this is how i'm hoping it turns out - the goal was an exaggerated "high risk high reward" design, where the risk also involves the opponent having to exploit the surrounding terrain. but we'll see how it works in practice...
On July 10 2016 19:14 [PkF] Wire wrote: Isn't Apotheosis going to be pretty imba in ZvP with the easy gold ?
The gold isn't that easy, since you can knock down the rocks to cut if off from the rest of the bases, and also shoot at the workers from the low ground.
this is how i'm hoping it turns out - the goal was an exaggerated "high risk high reward" design, where the risk also involves the opponent having to exploit the surrounding terrain. but we'll see how it works in practice...
the thing I fear is Z taking the gold as natural and then spamming hatch tech units on 2 bases. But you're right we'll have to see how it goes in practice before calling it broken.
so guys after beginning to play on the new maps (if you were eager to see your NA MMR just like I was ^^) what do you think ? Which ones are you going to veto ?
On July 13 2016 06:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: so guys after beginning to play on the new maps (if you were eager to see your NA MMR just like I was ^^) what do you think ? Which ones are you going to veto ?
Dasan Station is instant veto for me. The rest of the new maps are playable.
13/12 seems pretty bad on New Gettysburg in ZvZ (compared to maps like Frozen or Ulrena). Rush distance is long enough even with a bridge to hold I think. Apotheosis will be... interesting. I think you can actually collapse the rock tower next to gold and kill the rocks before any major Terran push so I can imagine that map being vetoed by non Zergs. Dasan Station obviously going to be a 13/12 fest in ZvZ. Maybe some 1 base roach shenanigans could work but dunno.
haven't got to play on Galactic Process before bed time, but overall I think the maps are really good for Zerg in all matchups, be it for macro or cheese.
On July 13 2016 08:21 Ej_ wrote: 13/12 seems pretty bad on New Gettysburg in ZvZ (compared to maps like Frozen or Ulrena). Rush distance is long enough even with a bridge to hold I think. Apotheosis will be... interesting. I think you can actually collapse the rock tower next to gold and kill the rocks before any major Terran push so I can imagine that map being vetoed by non Zergs. Dasan Station obviously going to be a 13/12 fest in ZvZ. Maybe some 1 base roach shenanigans could work but dunno.
haven't got to play on Galactic Process before bed time, but overall I think the maps are really good for Zerg in all matchups, be it for macro or cheese.
oh and NA placed me as a gold with 4220 MMR
the fact that it seems bad on that map just means thats what people will do in ZvZ under GM, and im looking forward to it immensely.
I am the only one that find Dasan Statation absurd?
I mean there are always some bad maps in the map pool but this map has no redeeming qualities. Is it even possible to hold more than 3 bases on this map? Maybe for Protoss since they have pylons, but for the other races?
On July 15 2016 06:45 MockHamill wrote: I am the only one that find Dasan Statation absurd?
I mean there are always some bad maps in the map pool but this map has no redeeming qualities. Is it even possible to hold more than 3 bases on this map? Maybe for Protoss since they have pylons, but for the other races?
That map is pure shit, but you know how Blizzard does it, 2 or 3 good playable maps and one shi....erm..."Different map" has to make it in.
I have'nt played Dasan Station that much, i can understand the troubles people get with it. BUT i've enjoyed Ulrena so far, i mean this maps was a bit "oh forget your plan it's Ulrena, let's play very agressive and a short game". I understand people don't like it, mostly cause too much people i've encountered on this maps did'nt adapt well on it's early/cheesy gameplay, but veto is here for that.
As long as you don't feel like you miss one veto because too many map feels really bad and unbalanced to you (not slightly favored) i think people should'nt complain that much, i think silent people enjoy those short maps more on casuals levels maybe (Plat/diam) and other got veto to have the experience they want.
My complain however would be on apotheosis, i don't play at a decent level recently but this map is just too big to me. (as a P) i feel like i'm just forced to take a fast B3&turtle , so far my opponnents did the same, both in a slow and safe way, because at lower level (top plat) Scout is'nt good and on this big maps it's much harder and longer. So this ends in really slow starting game where the P can only turtle, before starting directly in end fights which if the game is'nt finished after, one guy is clearly behind.
I really enjoyed Dusk Towers, but here the mix of LOOONG distance and pretty unsafe B3 (except distance of course) is bad for me. The rythm is globally slow, even once players begin to take their 4th. I have played mostly PvZ on this so of course it's really unpleasant, but even against T i don't see how this can be FUN. (i mean even P&T drop are'nt worthy until late cause you better invest in Base&Workers eventually some defences than in any form of early pressure that will take forever to make it)
I think i'm gonna veto that one instead of Dasan. I personnally prefer WTF short games from time to time, than a looong game with fews actins.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WrKd0CD.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GiOyMbV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oAsdoyC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lsV4C9N.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qjrxKZU.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U1jVKhr.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v7HTrjI.jpg)
