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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On June 29 2016 12:48 geokilla wrote: How would buffing Queen anti-air lead to that? The unit composition for all three races is mainly on the ground. Better defense against harras, but won't help Zerg being aggressive or trade armies effectively in the midgame, Zergs will still rush for ultras, and Terran will still try to kill them before they reach them, pretty boring game design. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 29 2016 13:30 Thinh123456 wrote: In a 1v1 situation vs Queen, Banshee is the survivor with very low health left that can take 2-3 more Queen's shots (i don't remember correctly). I'm afraid buff Queen range ATA like this will significantly nerf the Banshee play in early game. For Phoenix play, i think this is a slight nerf compared to Banshee play, and it can be accepted by Protoss. Decrease rooting time of spore crawler is a much proper solution. No need to discuss much. Who plays Banshee over Libs today anyways. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
when opening hellions you have to make banshees because liberators do nothing vs a ravager allin | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
if their late-game turns out to be unjustifiably strong, then obviously that should be nerfed. queen range and bl infestor had very little to do with each other in terms of design. game flow, yes, but if bl infestor wasn't totally broken at 200/200 and also so effective in general queen range would have been just another change to help zerg early on. it's very important to be able to understand how different these things are. at some point after stephano's 3 hour swarmhost stalemate games at lone star clash there was a balance suggestion to buff hydralisk/spore anti-air buff in order to fix swarmhost stalemates in zvz. that suggestion made zero sense and it is a good example that simply shifting the game flow slightly isn't going to solve a problematic endgame ruleset, because if something is OP in late-game then they will find ways to get there safely and the problem will remain the same. if changes allow games to be a bit more well-rounded rather than 'zerg is weak early and strong late' or 'kill protoss before they get to lategame' i'm all for that. if neo queens push zerg into a overpowered late-game, then hooray, maybe the designers will actually focus on that problematic lategame and the game will become better as a whole. i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ... so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV: ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea. ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue. ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D | ||
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diabcockiful
22 Posts
On June 29 2016 07:08 I wasbanned fromthis wrote: Lets keep this on topic. This is a balance test map, can personal reviews of these changes be submitted instead opinion pieces? and mods remove the opinion debates and drama like in every other thread... A third part to the poll could be: Did you try these changes before voting? God dammit sir, you are spot on in every aspect of this post...Can we all act like rational people and read this? | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
For spore crawler that's good but 5 ibstead of 6. That would be way too much and Terran won't be able to harass at all. And what about Ultralisks armor nerf you were talking about ? | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote: queen range buffs do not equal zerg overpowered in late-game. not even closely related. games being pushed towards late-game is inevitable if you want a race's defense to be stronger. there's nothing wrong about that, or giving aid to races that are unjustifiably weak early on. if their late-game turns out to be unjustifiably strong, then obviously that should be nerfed. queen range and bl infestor had very little to do with each other in terms of design. game flow, yes, but if bl infestor wasn't totally broken at 200/200 and also so effective in general queen range would have been just another change to help zerg early on. it's very important to be able to understand how different these things are. at some point after stephano's 3 hour swarmhost stalemate games at lone star clash there was a balance suggestion to buff hydralisk/spore anti-air buff in order to fix swarmhost stalemates in zvz. that suggestion made zero sense and it is a good example that simply shifting the game flow slightly isn't going to solve a problematic endgame ruleset, because if something is OP in late-game then they will find ways to get there safely and the problem will remain the same. if changes allow games to be a bit more well-rounded rather than 'zerg is weak early and strong late' or 'kill protoss before they get to lategame' i'm all for that. if neo queens push zerg into a overpowered late-game, then hooray, maybe the designers will actually focus on that problematic lategame and the game will become better as a whole. i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ... so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV: ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea. ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue. ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D The question, to me, is not so much about wether the late game would be OP or not, but more wether we, (non pro, professional and/or viewers) want Zerg to be a purely defensive-turtle race in ZvT (which is, I guess you would agree, kinda the direction of this patch). Muta ling bane vs biomine was also a defending play style in HOTS, with the 4th base as a point of contention but you were also able to do runby, mutalisk harass and so on. Further, while defensive, it was a battle of who could get the best trades of army while keeping a good macro, so it was not a turtle play, instead of Roach ravager which looks to be more about denying and preventing trades. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
Because mutas can't be made in zvt, zergs also suffer by having trouble stopping terran harass through tankivac (or drops in general, but tankivac is really stupid) and liberators because their anti air is bad. But rather than buffing their ground-based anti air, blizzard needs to find ways to make mutas viable without literally buffing the muta, and that entails nerfing the liberator. What I would do is... - Nerf the liberator. Either make terrans have to research the upgrade to transform into defender mode, or nerf the AA damage (this makes mutas more viable and allow zergs to actually harass terrans) - Reduce ultralisk armor (zvt is theoretically heavily favored in z's favor, but terrans have such a massive midgame advantage thanks to liberators and tankivacs that zergs enter the lategame as huge underdogs. Thus if you nerf t's midgame, you will have to adjust zerg's lategame) - Remove the invincibility from nydus worms while they're constructing (this is just really stupid) - Remove tankivac from the game (this is annoying in zvt and it ruins tvt) - Buff the siege tank damage it deals to shields (removing tankivac means siege tanks can't be made in tvp anymore otherwise) - Nerf the adept (right now they're too good as an overall unit and they're TOO effective against marines) - Nerf or remove photon overcharge (PO makes it too difficult to efficiently harass tosses) - Buff photon cannon (PO nerf means tosses will be forced to make cannons to stop harasses, but cannons suck. Basically, PO is too good at defending, while cannons are too weak. Thus I would prefer some kind of middle ground here) | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote: so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV: ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea. ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue. ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D pretty good summary. I don't see how the queen AA buff would make queen drops broken, you don't defend this with air units only, so I don't think that would be an issue. Honestly it's a pretty good buff for Z in both mus, it's at least worth testing. | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On June 29 2016 21:24 [PkF] Wire wrote: pretty good summary. I don't see how the queen AA buff would make queen drops broken, you don't defend this with air units only, so I don't think that would be an issue. Honestly it's a pretty good buff for Z in both mus, it's at least worth testing. Well it increases the odds of unfortunately losing your mothership core if you don't pay attention for a second. So that's great. | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter
45 Posts
RIP SC2^^ spore buff would be ok. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18041 Posts
On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote: i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ... thx for taking the time to post. i'm glad to see ground-to-air being strengthened for Zerg. investing in air is just too safe , too frequent , and too convenient. i want going air to have more tangible downsides; better Queen defense is a step towards that. Air Units are just too big a part of the game. I'm glad Blizzard has been chipping away at this issue and I hope some kind of ground-to-air AA buff is included in the next patch. Whether its buffing the Queen's AA , buff the spore crawler, whatever it is.. i'll take it. disclaimer: random diamond player. | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
For the queen buff, it seems a bit random and Dangerous, it could shut down some compo or strat too easely but it will help against the worst designed unit harass ever: the phoenix so it is all good. | ||
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WidowMineHero
New Zealand143 Posts
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MiCroLiFe
Norway275 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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diabcockiful
22 Posts
On June 29 2016 15:05 digmouse wrote: Keep the root time, queen range is a devastating mistake. Lol, devastating mistake? Giving the weak-ass queen's attack +1 range is "devastating"? Go test the maps first bro. It's just like any moderate buff to a race that isn't the one someone plays is vehemently argued against, most of the time without actually even testing it objectively. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote: i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ... The queen buff was literally the change that ushered in infestor/blord. It wasn't some coincidence that people erroneously associate with it. Being able to defend with queens with a smaller number of other units or even without investing in other units means a larger economy faster so that the late game is more accessible earlier. Any buff that strengthens the zerg midgame will have this effect, but the concern around the queen's strength is valid and grounded in the history of the game. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote: ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue. This is only true at the highest Korean level, and even in Korea the silly looking win rates are partially a consequence of the fact that zergs are still pretty reasonably represented; There's only one less zerg than there was terran in season 1. (Or would be if True hadn't forfeited) We're not in a 3 terran in GSL Season 1 2014 situation. Outside of that level, the WCS system and below, zergs aren't being demolished in TvZ. We see late game pretty frequently and we see it just roll over terran. The WCS system is a good example to show what would happen if Korean zergs were allowed to easily reach the late game. Blizzard should be proactive about avoiding another blord/infestor situation, especially in TvZ, not just due to balance itself, but the perception of their competence. Even if it resulted in a balanced Korean TvZ, allowing WCS TvZ to completely break would also be wrong. | ||
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iamkaokao
108 Posts
On June 30 2016 00:18 MiCroLiFe wrote: zerg is to strong as it is. more queen stuff? more queen all ins whit nydus and overlord drops User was temp banned for this post. So strong that there is 0 zergs in starleague , and almost no zergs in proleague as well , zerg almost never win in korea , unless its zvz or a lower tier player like soO vs Super , but never an ace player queen , and spore uprgade wont make any difference actually at high lvl , because the problem was never defending but attacking | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On June 30 2016 00:46 iamkaokao wrote: So strong that there is 0 zergs in starleague , and almost no zergs in proleague as well , zerg almost never win in korea , unless its zvz or a lower tier player like soO vs Super , but never an ace player queen , and spore uprgade wont make any difference actually at high lvl , because the problem was never defending but attacking There are Dark and Solar in the SSL. No zerg got past the qualifiers. Dark and Solar were seeded because of the last SSL season. | ||
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