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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20166312/call-to-action-june-28-balance-testing-6-28-2016
We’ve published a new Balance Test Map titled “(4)FrostLE (3.3.2 Balance v1.0).SC2Map” which contains the following changes that we’d like your feedback on:
Zerg
Queen's AA weapon range increased from 7 to 8
Spore Crawler's Root time decreased from 6 to 4
We encourage you to head on into the Balance Test Map to test these changes out! To find it, enter the Multiplayer section and navigate to Custom. The Balance Test Map will be at the top of the list under ‘Top Played.’
We’ve also updated the Extension Mod for balance testing, so you can play around with these changes on a variety of maps. Those of you interested in trying out the Extension Mod can do the following to get started:
Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu
Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner
Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen
Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind these potential changes, you can check out Senior Designer David Kim's Community Feedback Update and his recent post.
We’d like to remind you that feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above. We look forward to hearing your feedback and please remember that none of these changes are final.
Poll: Queen Anti-Air Buff?Negative (404) 63% Positive (237) 37% 641 total votes Your vote: Queen Anti-Air Buff? (Vote): Positive
(Vote): Negative
Poll: Spore Crawler Root Time DecreasedPositive (367) 66% Negative (131) 23% 5 instead of 6 (60) 11% 558 total votes Your vote: Spore Crawler Root Time Decreased (Vote): Positive
(Vote): Negative
(Vote): 5 instead of 6
The Spore Crawler changes is going to have a huge effect on all three match ups. This is going to kill ZvZ Muta fights even more so than they currently do. It's also going to make it much more difficult to drop against Zerg.
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Canada8157 Posts
I'm not sure a queen range buff is the right direction. I don't mind the new root time
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I like the slight buffs more than nerfing other things, although I still think tankivac and adept shading abilities are a little too strong. This will help against harass in general, which has been a main part of the problem that KR zergs are having in both matchups.
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Really think the proposed balance change is a HUGE mistake. It almost will achieve nothing, but make stalemate styles be much stronger. Any kind of Viper/Spores/Broods/Queens/Infestor composition will be so much stronger with this and now Terran Nukes will do even less, since Spores can just reposition so freaking fast. If anything Spore Crawler should have more burrow time..
Zerg will be stronger late and before that almost nothing is changed, which is the opposite effect of what is currently needed.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Targetting a queen AA range buff because of liberators in TvZ is a pretty bad idea IMO - because every other air unit in every zerg matchup will probably be affected just as much or even more.
I think that the correct approach would be to make liberators hittable by whatever defenses you want to stop them, rather than buffing all of the defenses because of one edge-case unit.
Spore crawler root time will not "fix" this because spore crawlers cannot reach liberators on many maps and spawns; they're not a reliable defense against the current iteration.
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I'm not understanding everyone's hesitance or disapproval, Zerg anti air sucks and this is a pretty small way to boost strictly anti air power without turning the Hydralisk OP vs. Stargate openers especially. I've never understood why all these years later every race has reliable ways to not die to aerial units and Zerg really doesn't.
A big yes, Phoenix and Liberators needs to be a little more intimidated by packs of Queens then they currently are. Sky units in general are just strong as hell in LOTV, nothing wrong with giving more ways to counter it.
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Lets keep this on topic. This is a balance test map, can personal reviews of these changes be submitted instead opinion pieces? and mods remove the opinion debates and drama like in every other thread...
A third part to the poll could be:
Did you try these changes before voting?
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On June 29 2016 07:08 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
Lets keep this on topic. This is a balance test map, can personal reviews of these changes be submitted instead opinion pieces? and mods remove the opinion debates and drama like in every other thread...
A third part to the poll could be:
Did you try these changes before voting?
No but I've played enough thousands of games to know that Zerg anti - air buffs are overdue, and if Ultralisks get the nerf bat after Liberators and Phoenix flocks can be fended off with less casualties I'll be very pleased as well.
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I think the spore root time will be mostly irrelevant to the overall issues facing zerg (especially against liberators). It can't hurt though, so I don't mind the change.
The queen buff will have to be tried to see how much it actually affects areas both in and outside of liberators, though overall I think the changes are a step in the right direction, especially with the minor buffs instead of major nerfs.
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On June 29 2016 06:59 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I'm not understanding everyone's hesitance or disapproval, Zerg anti air sucks and this is a pretty small way to boost strictly anti air power without turning the Hydralisk OP vs. Stargate openers especially. I've never understood why all these years later every race has reliable ways to not die to aerial units and Zerg really doesn't.
A big yes, Phoenix and Liberators needs to be a little more intimidated by packs of Queens then they currently are. Sky units in general are just strong as hell in LOTV, nothing wrong with giving more ways to counter it.
Because it's a buff that's telling you to go full turtle defensive. Yes, Zerg AA needs a buff, but not like this. Blizzard is just telling Zerg to turtle with queen spore ravager until T3 units, instead of promoting a more agressive (hydra based comp) or mobile (ling muta).
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On June 29 2016 06:58 Pugfarmer wrote:
I like the slight buffs more than nerfing other things
This line of thinking has to go. It is the reason why we've seen so many units get a speed boost. Nerfs are fine.
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I have bad memories of when the "other" queen range was buffed.
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Add this :
- adept shade cooldown heavy nerf ;
- tempest supply increase to 5 or even 6 ;
- removal of lib range
and we're good to go.
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Someone please make a competitive RTS...
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On June 29 2016 07:21 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 06:58 Pugfarmer wrote:
I like the slight buffs more than nerfing other things This line of thinking has to go. It is the reason why we've seen so many units get a speed boost. Nerfs are fine.
Yep. Mobility creep, range creep, general power creep has been objectively bad for the game
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On June 29 2016 07:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Add this :
- adept shade cooldown heavy nerf ;
- tempest supply increase to 5 or even 6 ;
- removal of lib range
and we're good to go.
I can't believe that shade ability for the adept hasn't been nerfed yet. Any ability that you can spam mindlessly without having to think is dumb...
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On June 29 2016 07:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 07:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Add this :
- adept shade cooldown heavy nerf ;
- tempest supply increase to 5 or even 6 ;
- removal of lib range
and we're good to go. I can't believe that shade ability for the adept hasn't been nerfed yet. Any ability that you can spam mindlessly without having to think is dumb...
It's not even as mindless as the ravager ability (which is still a large upgrade from the old typical 1A unmicroable zerg blobs)
If there's any adept change then i'm all for shade numbers/redesign rather than more combat power nerfs
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It is pretty obvious this is a subtle nerf to Liberators. All too often does a Zerg have to constantly uproot / reroot Spores, and the Liberator is out of range which denies an unreasonable amount of mining time.
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On June 29 2016 07:52 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 07:50 blade55555 wrote:On June 29 2016 07:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Add this :
- adept shade cooldown heavy nerf ;
- tempest supply increase to 5 or even 6 ;
- removal of lib range
and we're good to go. I can't believe that shade ability for the adept hasn't been nerfed yet. Any ability that you can spam mindlessly without having to think is dumb... It's not even as mindless as the ravager ability (which is still a large upgrade from the old typical 1A unmicroable zerg blobs) If there's any adept change then i'm all for shade numbers/redesign rather than more combat power nerfs
yeah the unit itself is probably fine but the shade is problematic. Further patches should try to see what can be done with it (make it not cancellable, bigger cooldown... many things can be tried).
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On June 29 2016 06:56 Jer99 wrote:
I'm not sure a queen range buff is the right direction.
Queen range buffs are never the right direction.
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On June 29 2016 07:44 xTJx wrote:
Someone please make a competitive RTS...
I got you, should be done with most of my changes on my mod within a week and then I'll try to make the gameplay good and somewhat balanced so I can release to the world.  
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Not sure how I feel about the queen buff, but the root buff is pretty great.
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Fascinating ideas from blizzard
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Where are the protoss and zerg nerfs and Terran buffs Blizzard  ?
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I want the queen range buff so that tankivacs are easier to deal with.
That or remove tankivac from the game since it's terrible design but if we're stuck with it at least make it somewhat killable.
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was hoping -1 ultra armor would be in the same patch.
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
On June 29 2016 08:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
I want the queen range buff so that tankivacs are easier to deal with.
That or remove tankivac from the game since it's terrible design but if we're stuck with it at least make it somewhat killable.
Yeah, didn't Blizzard plan to implement a change that you can pick up a sieged tank but then it automatically unsieges?
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On June 29 2016 08:45 Pokebunny wrote:
was hoping -1 ultra armor would be in the same patch.
Nice, the changes are pretty in line with what Snute suggested. I was saying, Blizzard's balance team should hire him! I guess, the -1 ultra armor will happen at the same time, when it goes live.
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On June 29 2016 08:45 Pokebunny wrote:
was hoping -1 ultra armor would be in the same patch.
if they could include this and some adept shade nerf we would reach a pretty perfect state of the game as far as competitiveness goes.
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Now Queens just need smaller collision size and they will be legit army units :D
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On June 29 2016 07:44 xTJx wrote:
Someone please make a competitive RTS...
Have faith in Day9 my child
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Not sure queens need the buff, but the spore buff seems okay. One or the other would be better imo.
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When Grey Goo is taking more of your time in the RTS genre than SC2, you know something is wrong.
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I was expecting a fix to ZvT, not this crap.
Blizzard is like: "yeah the matchup is suposed to be just like this; zerg going full defense until ultra and terran trying to kill them."
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On June 29 2016 10:20 Lexender wrote:Have faith in Day9 my child
I miss his Daily's. He would know how to solve the problems we have in SC2.
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On June 29 2016 08:47 CruiseR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 08:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
I want the queen range buff so that tankivacs are easier to deal with.
That or remove tankivac from the game since it's terrible design but if we're stuck with it at least make it somewhat killable. Yeah, didn't Blizzard plan to implement a change that you can pick up a sieged tank but then it automatically unsieges?
That makes unsieging by medivac pickup standard play. That's weird and wrong. It would also have to be accompanied by a siege tank buff.
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The solution to early game anti air is very simple......Tier 1 Hydras....brood war did it..it was fine...also.. bring back scrouges... The game has a lot more problems than queen range attack, it needs to revamp...
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Buffing the queen this way will only increase the turtling => ultras which is the only viable play for zergs nowadays.
The matchup is more retarded than it is unbalanced.
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On June 29 2016 12:19 JackONeill wrote:
Buffing the queen this way will only increase the turtling => ultras which is the only viable play for zergs nowadays.
The matchup is more retarded than it is unbalanced.
How would buffing Queen anti-air lead to that? The unit composition for all three races is mainly on the ground.
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Stop trying to make liberator defence a thing, it's not a thing
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In a 1v1 situation vs Queen, Banshee is the survivor with very low health left that can take 2-3 more Queen's shots (i don't remember correctly). I'm afraid buff Queen range ATA like this will significantly nerf the Banshee play in early game. For Phoenix play, i think this is a slight nerf compared to Banshee play, and it can be accepted by Protoss.
Decrease rooting time of spore crawler is a much proper solution. No need to discuss much.
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On June 29 2016 08:45 Pokebunny wrote:
was hoping -1 ultra armor would be in the same patch.
i dont think a slight spore buff is enough to justify that yet
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I prefer a mild nerf to tank like requiring the siege upgrade again.
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you could also lower the radius in which the liberator circle is pre-nerf, which would reduce the harass potential of liberators. Admittedly that is the #1 thing that I personally cannot handle from a multitasking Terran. Drops without liberator harass are no problem (relatively), nor are straight up pushes.
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So they're basically making it harder for terran to 'not let them get there' instead of fixing the flawed game design. Ok.
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On June 29 2016 13:34 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 08:45 Pokebunny wrote:
was hoping -1 ultra armor would be in the same patch. i dont think a slight spore buff is enough to justify that yet
Queen buff is though.
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On June 29 2016 13:35 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I prefer a mild nerf to tank like requiring the siege upgrade again.
Terrans would just die to roach ravager allins then. I doubt thats gonna happen.
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China6327 Posts
Keep the root time, queen range is a devastating mistake.
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Am I the only one noticing that protoss is so much advantaged in the PvT match up? and terran is having such an easy time vs zerg? I guess those changes will help PvZ... more balance change would be needed...
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What they're doing is releasing a balance test map...
What are the results they are looking for with this change? (DO WE ALL KNOW?) fix an entire game?
I think being a balance test map it's clearly obvious what they are looking taking metrics on at the moment without overdoing the input and variability concern of changing too much at once and crucifying other units because of a variable they didnt account for. so understanding the dynamics of such great changes skews the real potential of each individual change.
Assuming anyone of us had this job to balance. Whatever it is, are you going to change 8 ingredients of the whole makeup of the pie(cake, food dish), and then revert back to old reciepe when customers say it's tastes awful. What one ingredient didnt they like exactly and did the cherries sour the maple sauce too much? are you going to suck back a bunch of surgar to figure this out (some raised your hands; put them down). Are you going to waste time making 8changes into a patch release to revert back and to come full circle and staggeringly climb back up that list of changes. In this fashion to begin with, your grandchildren would beable to see a greater lineage of reciepe changes than the past 500years of family lineage displayed on a wall.
It would have saved time and headache to out set more reasoning to why they do things in baby steps, but can't they tell kids and half-way intellegent people this. baby steps dont make my baseline flux hardenough i dont know what happiness is, I cant actually play because im burned out, but i know why im burned out it's these ingame problems.. not my health, mentality, social ecosystem. No they basically insist in keeping it polite & silent; talk all you want we want your feedback it looks better than seeing stale in game numbers.
Maybe not every change is great, but reverting back to old versions isnt nessearily something blizzard does every release, so that is good... that you don't get a patch, and a week later reverted to old version; TOO many people comlained, needed to.
instead of being 3-5years older still not getting on with a professional life, we're concerning our brief time as humans on, these micro issues. It's amazing aint it, to see how much hyperbole goes on over something that is litterally taking you away from mechanically playing games and improving -regardless of your emotional state.. It's too hard to play hard, so whining harder to make it easier, is -easier than mechanically and intelligently baring the storm, that' is Blizzard's undertaking of evolving online products.
For the fancy of hopes and dreams, I'd wish the value people put in there time & posts improve more than the game itself. we're the humans.
Why are the amateurs improving this game without making changes. play the game, make the data,
(If you've payed attention to SC buzz, Its said that SC is so hard to play perfectly, and part of the game is to mitigate harrassment and maintain perfect play, and it's in the winners favor having executed harassment accurately and precisely, as well to maintain perfect allround play, including recognizing the opponents mistakes and where his advtanges have left him. assuming this is clear to everyone, everyone should be aware that noone plays perfect and so the value to these changes dont actually set out a clear answer. 2second root buff could mean zergs dont root the spore till they are aware of the lib-zone location... Or whatever the change. -armor ultars could mean some terrans can get away with MMM micro again and yet some can banshee again.. All this talk lol... I really would hope others take less passion in displaying the same uncontent disposition for xYears now (wol, hots, lotv... when did your feelings matter to this board).
Lets rule out cases of definitive devotion to cases for what is worth this
- Eco mod change LOTV beta. Respect.
- Sholip's analyses. Well met.
- master list of hackers and cheaters. Thats a useful tool i've used after noticing people on that list, i've got some funny winning replays saved, thank you for that.
(honour list) -streamers
- day9 's dailys, PiG's startup
- smaller casting streams hosting variety of tournies and exposing new talent.
- TotalBiscuit & crew.
- ect, you know who you are.
SC is a game that's in the hands of professionals, fix yourself; ignore your emotions, if you're fatigued from playing something (broken) and stressing you, then dont use down time from practicing to express your opinions in a venue consuming itself with hyperbole. If you dont think you need fixing, enjoy yourself for once for being absolutely perfect, and appreciate all these constructive additions to a public forum.
No one will ever play a version of this game that is in their best interest and everyone Else's, any idea of ideal state of the game is selfish delusion. Blizzard is making painfully slow changes, but mostly always forward and not reverting, and you dont feel it, but you're a bit happier not going back and forth between versions and unit values, meanwhile your rhetoric on discussion boards is at it's best with so many years of practice.
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I really hoped for reducing Liberator's range by one as proposed ages ago, rather than a buff to a minerals-only-ranged-healer.
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On June 29 2016 13:35 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I prefer a mild nerf to tank like requiring the siege upgrade again.
How would T ever hold early Ravager attacks then?
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I don't understand them.
Everyone, even Terrans, say that reducing the Liberator range is the way to go, if Liberator are the problem in ZvT. And Blizzard is buffind queens and spores -.-
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On June 29 2016 15:31 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
What they're doing is releasing a balance test map...
What are the results they are looking for with this change? (DO WE ALL KNOW?) fix an entire game?
I think being a balance test map it's clearly obvious what they are looking taking metrics on at the moment without overdoing the input and variability concern of changing too much at once and crucifying other units because of a variable they didnt account for. so understanding the dynamics of such great changes skews the real potential of each individual change.
Assuming anyone of us had this job to balance. Whatever it is, are you going to change 8 ingredients of the whole makeup of the pie(cake, food dish), and then revert back to old reciepe when customers say it's tastes awful. What one ingredient didnt they like exactly and did the cherries sour the maple sauce too much? are you going to suck back a bunch of surgar to figure this out (some raised your hands; put them down). Are you going to waste time making 8changes into a patch release to revert back and to come full circle and staggeringly climb back up that list of changes. In this fashion to begin with, your grandchildren would beable to see a greater lineage of reciepe changes than the past 500years of family lineage displayed on a wall.
It would have saved time and headache to out set more reasoning to why they do things in baby steps, but can't they tell kids and half-way intellegent people this. baby steps dont make my baseline flux hardenough i dont know what happiness is, I cant actually play because im burned out, but i know why im burned out it's these ingame problems.. not my health, mentality, social ecosystem. No they basically insist in keeping it polite & silent; talk all you want we want your feedback it looks better than seeing stale in game numbers.
Maybe not every change is great, but reverting back to old versions isnt nessearily something blizzard does every release, so that is good... that you don't get a patch, and a week later reverted to old version; TOO many people comlained, needed to.
instead of being 3-5years older still not getting on with a professional life, we're concerning our brief time as humans on, these micro issues. It's amazing aint it, to see how much hyperbole goes on over something that is litterally taking you away from mechanically playing games and improving -regardless of your emotional state.. It's too hard to play hard, so whining harder to make it easier, is -easier than mechanically and intelligently baring the storm, that' is Blizzard's undertaking of evolving online products.
For the fancy of hopes and dreams, I'd wish the value people put in there time & posts improve more than the game itself. we're the humans.
Why are the amateurs improving this game without making changes. play the game, make the data,
(If you've payed attention to SC buzz, Its said that SC is so hard to play perfectly, and part of the game is to mitigate harrassment and maintain perfect play, and it's in the winners favor having executed harassment accurately and precisely, as well to maintain perfect allround play, including recognizing the opponents mistakes and where his advtanges have left him. assuming this is clear to everyone, everyone should be aware that noone plays perfect and so the value to these changes dont actually set out a clear answer. 2second root buff could mean zergs dont root the spore till they are aware of the lib-zone location... Or whatever the change. -armor ultars could mean some terrans can get away with MMM micro again and yet some can banshee again.. All this talk lol... I really would hope others take less passion in displaying the same uncontent disposition for xYears now (wol, hots, lotv... when did your feelings matter to this board).
Lets rule out cases of definitive devotion to cases for what is worth this
- Eco mod change LOTV beta. Respect.
- Sholip's analyses. Well met.
- master list of hackers and cheaters. Thats a useful tool i've used after noticing people on that list, i've got some funny winning replays saved, thank you for that.
(honour list) -streamers
- day9 's dailys, PiG's startup
- smaller casting streams hosting variety of tournies and exposing new talent.
- TotalBiscuit & crew.
- ect, you know who you are.
SC is a game that's in the hands of professionals, fix yourself; ignore your emotions, if you're fatigued from playing something (broken) and stressing you, then dont use down time from practicing to express your opinions in a venue consuming itself with hyperbole. If you dont think you need fixing, enjoy yourself for once for being absolutely perfect, and appreciate all these constructive additions to a public forum.
No one will ever play a version of this game that is in their best interest and everyone Else's, any idea of ideal state of the game is selfish delusion. Blizzard is making painfully slow changes, but mostly always forward and not reverting, and you dont feel it, but you're a bit happier not going back and forth between versions and unit values, meanwhile your rhetoric on discussion boards is at it's best with so many years of practice.
Just imagining you sitting in 1 room with Avilo discussing the state of SC2 and the approach Blizzard is taking. Made my day, haha, thanks for that. :D
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I'm against any queen anti air buff now that Snute has showcased this super disgusting mass queen ZvT.
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On June 29 2016 07:21 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 06:59 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I'm not understanding everyone's hesitance or disapproval, Zerg anti air sucks and this is a pretty small way to boost strictly anti air power without turning the Hydralisk OP vs. Stargate openers especially. I've never understood why all these years later every race has reliable ways to not die to aerial units and Zerg really doesn't.
A big yes, Phoenix and Liberators needs to be a little more intimidated by packs of Queens then they currently are. Sky units in general are just strong as hell in LOTV, nothing wrong with giving more ways to counter it. Because it's a buff that's telling you to go full turtle defensive. Yes, Zerg AA needs a buff, but not like this. Blizzard is just telling Zerg to turtle with queen spore ravager until T3 units, instead of promoting a more agressive (hydra based comp) or mobile (ling muta).
I agree, in hots they buff mutas to deal with boosted medivacs but then protoss needs super powerful phoenix to deal with them and terran can't deal with mass muta in the lategame. So now liberators make mutas almost uselss so zerg has nothing to deal with drops. Best thing would be a nerf to air units overall so ground units can deal with them instead of air units countering each other. But the mantra is buff instead of nerf because of reasons ... so i guess the next best thing is buffing hydralisks anti-air like you said.
As a zerg i rather wait for a better solution than have the queen buffed it might balance the game out but i fear that zerg is becoming more and more a defensive race.
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On June 29 2016 14:50 Infiiiniity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 13:35 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I prefer a mild nerf to tank like requiring the siege upgrade again. Terrans would just die to roach ravager allins then. I doubt thats gonna happen.
I really don't think there's such a thin line between Terran dying to every Roach Ravager allin and the allin never happening.
Not that I agree with the other guy.
I think it would be very nice, if they'd fix Liberator range so that there is no such thing as an unkillable position, with only ground units/structures to deal with it. So just for that I also want to get rid of the Liberator upgrade, but that will have incredible consequences for the late game. Would probably require a Tempest change at the very least.
I think a feature that could help Terrans in the late game would be to make Ghosts be able to use Snipe inside Bunkers. This would help Terran in split map situations or key points to fortify vs Ultralisks and the likes. It would be a cool counter to Fungal Growth and Abduct.
It could resurrect the Gretorp upgrades and could even help bridge the gap between the transition from Bio -> Mech or vice versa.
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do they not remember what happened last time queen range was buffed no thank you
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Make overlords air pathing blockers. This gives Zerg a strategical way to counter air units :D
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On June 29 2016 12:48 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 12:19 JackONeill wrote:
Buffing the queen this way will only increase the turtling => ultras which is the only viable play for zergs nowadays.
The matchup is more retarded than it is unbalanced. How would buffing Queen anti-air lead to that? The unit composition for all three races is mainly on the ground.
Better defense against harras, but won't help Zerg being aggressive or trade armies effectively in the midgame,
Zergs will still rush for ultras, and Terran will still try to kill them before they reach them, pretty boring game design.
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On June 29 2016 13:30 Thinh123456 wrote:
In a 1v1 situation vs Queen, Banshee is the survivor with very low health left that can take 2-3 more Queen's shots (i don't remember correctly). I'm afraid buff Queen range ATA like this will significantly nerf the Banshee play in early game. For Phoenix play, i think this is a slight nerf compared to Banshee play, and it can be accepted by Protoss.
Decrease rooting time of spore crawler is a much proper solution. No need to discuss much.
Who plays Banshee over Libs today anyways.
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On June 29 2016 19:52 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 13:30 Thinh123456 wrote:
In a 1v1 situation vs Queen, Banshee is the survivor with very low health left that can take 2-3 more Queen's shots (i don't remember correctly). I'm afraid buff Queen range ATA like this will significantly nerf the Banshee play in early game. For Phoenix play, i think this is a slight nerf compared to Banshee play, and it can be accepted by Protoss.
Decrease rooting time of spore crawler is a much proper solution. No need to discuss much. Who plays Banshee over Libs today anyways.
when opening hellions you have to make banshees because liberators do nothing vs a ravager allin
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Norway839 Posts
queen range buffs do not equal zerg overpowered in late-game. not even closely related. games being pushed towards late-game is inevitable if you want a race's defense to be stronger. there's nothing wrong about that, or giving aid to races that are unjustifiably weak early on.
if their late-game turns out to be unjustifiably strong, then obviously that should be nerfed. queen range and bl infestor had very little to do with each other in terms of design. game flow, yes, but if bl infestor wasn't totally broken at 200/200 and also so effective in general queen range would have been just another change to help zerg early on.
it's very important to be able to understand how different these things are. at some point after stephano's 3 hour swarmhost stalemate games at lone star clash there was a balance suggestion to buff hydralisk/spore anti-air buff in order to fix swarmhost stalemates in zvz. that suggestion made zero sense and it is a good example that simply shifting the game flow slightly isn't going to solve a problematic endgame ruleset, because if something is OP in late-game then they will find ways to get there safely and the problem will remain the same.
if changes allow games to be a bit more well-rounded rather than 'zerg is weak early and strong late' or 'kill protoss before they get to lategame' i'm all for that. if neo queens push zerg into a overpowered late-game, then hooray, maybe the designers will actually focus on that problematic lategame and the game will become better as a whole.
i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ...
so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV:
ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea.
ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue.
ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D
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On June 29 2016 07:08 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
Lets keep this on topic. This is a balance test map, can personal reviews of these changes be submitted instead opinion pieces? and mods remove the opinion debates and drama like in every other thread...
A third part to the poll could be:
Did you try these changes before voting?
God dammit sir, you are spot on in every aspect of this post...Can we all act like rational people and read this?
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The Queen air range buff seems to be a pretty bad idea.
For spore crawler that's good but 5 ibstead of 6.
That would be way too much and Terran won't be able to harass at all.
And what about Ultralisks armor nerf you were talking about ?
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On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
queen range buffs do not equal zerg overpowered in late-game. not even closely related. games being pushed towards late-game is inevitable if you want a race's defense to be stronger. there's nothing wrong about that, or giving aid to races that are unjustifiably weak early on.
if their late-game turns out to be unjustifiably strong, then obviously that should be nerfed. queen range and bl infestor had very little to do with each other in terms of design. game flow, yes, but if bl infestor wasn't totally broken at 200/200 and also so effective in general queen range would have been just another change to help zerg early on.
it's very important to be able to understand how different these things are. at some point after stephano's 3 hour swarmhost stalemate games at lone star clash there was a balance suggestion to buff hydralisk/spore anti-air buff in order to fix swarmhost stalemates in zvz. that suggestion made zero sense and it is a good example that simply shifting the game flow slightly isn't going to solve a problematic endgame ruleset, because if something is OP in late-game then they will find ways to get there safely and the problem will remain the same.
if changes allow games to be a bit more well-rounded rather than 'zerg is weak early and strong late' or 'kill protoss before they get to lategame' i'm all for that. if neo queens push zerg into a overpowered late-game, then hooray, maybe the designers will actually focus on that problematic lategame and the game will become better as a whole.
i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ...
so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV:
ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea.
ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue.
ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D
The question, to me, is not so much about wether the late game would be OP or not, but more wether we, (non pro, professional and/or viewers) want Zerg to be a purely defensive-turtle race in ZvT (which is, I guess you would agree, kinda the direction of this patch).
Muta ling bane vs biomine was also a defending play style in HOTS, with the 4th base as a point of contention but you were also able to do runby, mutalisk harass and so on. Further, while defensive, it was a battle of who could get the best trades of army while keeping a good macro, so it was not a turtle play, instead of Roach ravager which looks to be more about denying and preventing trades.
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The reason why I don't think these buffs are in the right direction is because I think zergs have a very hard time putting their own pressure on opponents. So it's a little harder to harass zergs now. Zergs still can't harass back very efficiently. Mutas are irrelevant in zvp because phoenixes and they're REALLY irrelevant in zvt because of liberators, and mutas are by far zerg's best way to harass.
Because mutas can't be made in zvt, zergs also suffer by having trouble stopping terran harass through tankivac (or drops in general, but tankivac is really stupid) and liberators because their anti air is bad. But rather than buffing their ground-based anti air, blizzard needs to find ways to make mutas viable without literally buffing the muta, and that entails nerfing the liberator.
What I would do is...
- Nerf the liberator. Either make terrans have to research the upgrade to transform into defender mode, or nerf the AA damage (this makes mutas more viable and allow zergs to actually harass terrans)
- Reduce ultralisk armor (zvt is theoretically heavily favored in z's favor, but terrans have such a massive midgame advantage thanks to liberators and tankivacs that zergs enter the lategame as huge underdogs. Thus if you nerf t's midgame, you will have to adjust zerg's lategame)
- Remove the invincibility from nydus worms while they're constructing (this is just really stupid)
- Remove tankivac from the game (this is annoying in zvt and it ruins tvt)
- Buff the siege tank damage it deals to shields (removing tankivac means siege tanks can't be made in tvp anymore otherwise)
- Nerf the adept (right now they're too good as an overall unit and they're TOO effective against marines)
- Nerf or remove photon overcharge (PO makes it too difficult to efficiently harass tosses)
- Buff photon cannon (PO nerf means tosses will be forced to make cannons to stop harasses, but cannons suck. Basically, PO is too good at defending, while cannons are too weak. Thus I would prefer some kind of middle ground here)
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On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV:
ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea.
ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue.
ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D
pretty good summary. I don't see how the queen AA buff would make queen drops broken, you don't defend this with air units only, so I don't think that would be an issue.
Honestly it's a pretty good buff for Z in both mus, it's at least worth testing.
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On June 29 2016 21:24 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
so you can ask yourself how this plays out in LOTV:
ZvP: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? no, don't think so. would queen buff cause Zerg to be unbeatable in the mid-game? somewhat doubtful. will queen drops be imbalanced in the early game? no idea.
ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue.
ZvZ: poor overlord scouts :D pretty good summary. I don't see how the queen AA buff would make queen drops broken, you don't defend this with air units only, so I don't think that would be an issue. Honestly it's a pretty good buff for Z in both mus, it's at least worth testing.
Well it increases the odds of unfortunately losing your mothership core if you don't pay attention for a second. So that's great.
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they actually consider a queen AA range buff xDDDDDD
RIP SC2^^
spore buff would be ok.
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On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ...
thx for taking the time to post.
i'm glad to see ground-to-air being strengthened for Zerg. investing in air is just too safe , too frequent , and too convenient. i want going air to have more tangible downsides; better Queen defense is a step towards that.
Air Units are just too big a part of the game. I'm glad Blizzard has been chipping away at this issue and I hope some kind of ground-to-air AA buff is included in the next patch. Whether its buffing the Queen's AA , buff the spore crawler, whatever it is.. i'll take it.
disclaimer: random diamond player.
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That would not change the fact that the zvt is not as enjoyable as before but I guess the spore change is good for the sake of balance..
For the queen buff, it seems a bit random and Dangerous, it could shut down some compo or strat too easely but it will help against the worst designed unit harass ever: the phoenix so it is all good.
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how about give zergs an affordable lair tech that gives 4 larva per inject instead of 3?
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zerg is to strong as it is. more queen stuff? more queen all ins whit nydus and overlord drops
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 29 2016 15:05 digmouse wrote:
Keep the root time, queen range is a devastating mistake.
Lol, devastating mistake? Giving the weak-ass queen's attack +1 range is "devastating"? Go test the maps first bro. It's just like any moderate buff to a race that isn't the one someone plays is vehemently argued against, most of the time without actually even testing it objectively.
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On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ...
The queen buff was literally the change that ushered in infestor/blord. It wasn't some coincidence that people erroneously associate with it. Being able to defend with queens with a smaller number of other units or even without investing in other units means a larger economy faster so that the late game is more accessible earlier. Any buff that strengthens the zerg midgame will have this effect, but the concern around the queen's strength is valid and grounded in the history of the game. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
ZvT: is Zerg totally broken in late-game? possibly. but right now, zergs are losing so often that it's not seen often enough to be considered a priority issue.
This is only true at the highest Korean level, and even in Korea the silly looking win rates are partially a consequence of the fact that zergs are still pretty reasonably represented; There's only one less zerg than there was terran in season 1. (Or would be if True hadn't forfeited) We're not in a 3 terran in GSL Season 1 2014 situation. Outside of that level, the WCS system and below, zergs aren't being demolished in TvZ. We see late game pretty frequently and we see it just roll over terran. The WCS system is a good example to show what would happen if Korean zergs were allowed to easily reach the late game. Blizzard should be proactive about avoiding another blord/infestor situation, especially in TvZ, not just due to balance itself, but the perception of their competence. Even if it resulted in a balanced Korean TvZ, allowing WCS TvZ to completely break would also be wrong.
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On June 30 2016 00:18 MiCroLiFe wrote:
zerg is to strong as it is. more queen stuff? more queen all ins whit nydus and overlord drops
User was temp banned for this post.
So strong that there is 0 zergs in starleague , and almost no zergs in proleague as well , zerg almost never win in korea , unless its zvz or a lower tier player like soO vs Super , but never an ace player
queen , and spore uprgade wont make any difference actually at high lvl , because the problem was never defending but attacking
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On June 30 2016 00:46 iamkaokao wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 00:18 MiCroLiFe wrote:
zerg is to strong as it is. more queen stuff? more queen all ins whit nydus and overlord drops
User was temp banned for this post. So strong that there is 0 zergs in starleague , and almost no zergs in proleague as well , zerg almost never win in korea , unless its zvz or a lower tier player like soO vs Super , but never an ace player queen , and spore uprgade wont make any difference actually at high lvl , because the problem was never defending but attacking
There are Dark and Solar in the SSL. No zerg got past the qualifiers. Dark and Solar were seeded because of the last SSL season.
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Adept timings in zvp have been putting me off playing because theyr'e the new immortal/sentry all in. But worse
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The shameless advertising. :D
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On June 30 2016 00:39 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ... The queen buff was literally the change that ushered in infestor/blord. It wasn't some coincidence that people erroneously associate with it. Being able to defend with queens with a smaller number of other units or even without investing in other units means a larger economy faster so that the late game is more accessible earlier. Any buff that strengthens the zerg midgame will have this effect, but the concern around the queen's strength is valid and grounded in the history of the game. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
very convenietly skipping the next paragraph of Snute's post which talks about how queen range buff and BL/infestor weren't connected design wise.
the point that you seem to be missing is that you can buff zerg early game and nerf their late game
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well done david kim *slow clap* Kappa
User was temp banned for this post.
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What is it with this obsession of the Queen and Spore crawler. So many units they could tweak and its back this. At least bunker build time hasnt been nerfed 
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Great changes. Now a-moving other races as zerg will be even easier. I am seriously thinking about switching to zerg or abandoning SC2 completely.
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On June 30 2016 03:37 TheWildShooter wrote:
Great changes. Now a-moving other races as zerg will be even easier. I am seriously thinking about switching to zerg or abandoning SC2 completely.
You are going to a-move with queens? Thats gonna take some time. I guess you can create a creep high-way with overlords or queens. Are you gonna use spores also? That takes some micro but i guess it´s still ok.. You should switch to Zerg as it is the race to be.
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On June 30 2016 01:40 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 00:39 TheWinks wrote:On June 29 2016 20:02 Liquid`Snute wrote:
i just want the queen range buff=BL infestor perception to die off already, it's a really bad way to look at things. maximum army end-game is very different from early game and mid-game ... The queen buff was literally the change that ushered in infestor/blord. It wasn't some coincidence that people erroneously associate with it. Being able to defend with queens with a smaller number of other units or even without investing in other units means a larger economy faster so that the late game is more accessible earlier. Any buff that strengthens the zerg midgame will have this effect, but the concern around the queen's strength is valid and grounded in the history of the game. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. very convenietly skipping the next paragraph of Snute's post which talks about how queen range buff and BL/infestor weren't connected design wise. the point that you seem to be missing is that you can buff zerg early game and nerf their late game
I didn't skip anything, it just wasn't worth saying 'no, they're totally connected design-wise' when I could just use an example of how early game was connected to late game design wise. One of, if not the primary reasoning for justifying the strength 8 armor 'T3' ultras is the difficulty in successfully reaching them. Therefore ANY change to the early/mid game that increases accessibility to the ultra is in some way connected to the ultra design-wise because it weakens that justification for its strength.
Snute does not advocate a simultaneous buff to early/mid game and a late game nerf, just that if things are screwed up then they can fix that problem when they reach it. I also disagreed with that because not only do we have evidence that such compensation would be necessary, but if the balance team inadvertently makes Blord/Infestor 2: David Kim Boogaloo despite all these warning signs and the fact that it was in fact also a queen buff in Wings that did immeasurable harm to the game, their reputation may never recover without a shakeup.
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While I like the idea of a queen range buff, it'll be very strong for queen, it seems pretty aggressive. Queens are already pretty good.
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I feel queen buff affects quite a few things as well as banshees which are pretty much a dead unit in the game right now. Better to focus on liberator in ZvT(and vs mech)
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did we learn nothing from the queen ground range increase... Buffing queens is much bigger of a deal than its surificial appearance
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On June 30 2016 00:18 MiCroLiFe wrote:
zerg is to strong as it is. more queen stuff? more queen all ins whit nydus and overlord drops
User was temp banned for this post.
Dno why this user was banned. Even if statistics say Zerg is the weakest race, it's not factual. If it has something to do with his signature, or history, then pardon me.
Just looking at the new Spore Crawler root time, it just looks ridiculous and should not be in the game, though it's not the first time something that does not belong gets implemented. I think the balance team might be a bit too tunnel visioned on balance and is not considering what looks good aesthetically and the design of it. The biggest part of being a progamer is solving problems, let them be the problem solvers, you should merely provide the tools.
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This will for sure have an impact how big is yet to be determined still better early game AA is a much smaller change then 4 larva inject. I don't like the fact that even more utility and importance is being added to the queen but it's not a giant change. It will remain to be seen if 1) this allows Zerg to better deffend harass 2) of its a big enough deal that Zerg consistently reaches late game 3) if this will swing balance the other way. I'd say just put it on live observe closely and adjust accordingly. I'd say they should realy look into the balance test map first but there sample size is probably to small to get an adequite sense for the changes.
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This should mean that oracles have a higher chance of dying in the early game which makes them more of a costly investment. Since currently oracles are a stupidly cost efficient unit with all their utility from early through to late game.
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The best time to make mutas viable in ZvT and they are buffing spores.
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Something has to be done, and this is a test people, remember a test so lets see what results happen before we jump to conclusions.
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On June 30 2016 04:27 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 00:18 MiCroLiFe wrote:
zerg is to strong as it is. more queen stuff? more queen all ins whit nydus and overlord drops
User was temp banned for this post. Dno why this user was banned. Even if statistics say Zerg is the weakest race, it's not factual. If it has something to do with his signature, or history, then pardon me. Just looking at the new Spore Crawler root time, it just looks ridiculous and should not be in the game, though it's not the first time something that does not belong gets implemented. I think the balance team might be a bit too tunnel visioned on balance and is not considering what looks good aesthetically and the design of it. The biggest part of being a progamer is solving problems, let them be the problem solvers, you should merely provide the tools.
The twitch emote he used in his post is not allowed on TL forums :s
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Queen buff is a terrible, game-breaking idea. spore change is a very underwhelming, but it's the lesser of 2 evils. I wish they'd let us test tier 1 hydras
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Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough...
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too little too late id say but more than nothing
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From, To Think as Nature Thinks -by: John Cimino, Jr.
And yet it is this question of connectivity that seems to have confounded us as educators for centuries. We’ve been experts at describing and defining at great length what a thing is and what it appears to be doing on its own, but have managed somehow and too often to avoid its place and function as a part of something larger. Our life sciences and ecological investigations have gradually overturned this perspective as simply poor science. Yet far too many of our great institutions still operate as collectives of silos and fiercely defended fiefdoms with meager connectivity among their constituent parts.
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On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough...
I agree, the list is huge.
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On June 30 2016 21:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... I agree, the list is huge.
The only thing I would remove is Parasitic Bomb (only thing that let's you come back in Mutalisk wars or do jack shit against bigger aerial armies) and Ravagers (Haven't really seen these be a "problem" in a little while" but yes, things like David being afraid of Swarm Hosts (ROFL) and yet allowing Tempests to be massed at the same supply as the useless since release Cyclone is pretty bad and needs to be addressed.
Raven could use a tweak, mech could use a tweak (You know like making tanks really good and removing the idiot Medivac ability but hey I'm not on the balance team sooo...) and the Ultralisk should probably at the very least receive a -1 armor nerf so bio can scratch them. I wonder though, will the Ghost ever even be used if the Ultralisk can be defeated by bio alone? The Ghosts sole point to exist right now is to Steady Target the Ultralisks but I guess that's another can of worms entirely.
- Make Cyclone reliable anti - air footman for mech and remove the gimmick lock on ability, good units are just good, they don't need a gimmick ability as a crutch, that's bad/lazy design.
- Redistribute air power, take something away from Liberators (like the ground mode upgrade with a damage nerf or something) and make Viking ground mode actually good for once in 5 years. Currently the Liberator takes the identity away from the Banshee for air to ground drone kills and air power from the Viking, this is bad/lazy design as well. 1 unit overlapping all other Starport units? Tell me that's not bad/lazy design.
- Remove idiotic Tank/Medivac ability, the novelty has worn off and it's cancer for TvT, not sure the balance teams obsession with the tank sucking and retaining this gimmick ability.
- Do work on Ghosts/Infestors/Ravens, make them better somehow, currently they are all super niche while the High Templar is a staple unit in every match up, are the other races not allowed to have good spell casters or something? Okay the Viper is good, but Infestors are still pretty terrible and vulnerable at best.
- Tone down Ultralisk armor or give Marauder single attacks back so they don't get affected twice by armor
- Raise Tempest supply to 6 because common sense dictates that this unit and the Cyclone probably shouldn't use the same supply.
- Rework Nydus to not be a gimmick
- Remove Swarm Hosts from the game entirely, they serve no real purpose to the Swarm, sorry David, time to let this one go, it's a failed implementation.
There you go, game is pretty much 100% if all of these went through.
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On July 01 2016 01:33 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 21:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... I agree, the list is huge. The only thing I would remove is Parasitic Bomb (only thing that let's you come back in Mutalisk wars or do jack shit against bigger aerial armies) and Ravagers (Haven't really seen these be a "problem" in a little while" but yes, things like David being afraid of Swarm Hosts (ROFL) and yet allowing Tempests to be massed at the same supply as the useless since release Cyclone is pretty bad and needs to be addressed. Raven could use a tweak, mech could use a tweak (You know like making tanks really good and removing the idiot Medivac ability but hey I'm not on the balance team sooo...) and the Ultralisk should probably at the very least receive a -1 armor nerf so bio can scratch them. I wonder though, will the Ghost ever even be used if the Ultralisk can be defeated by bio alone? The Ghosts sole point to exist right now is to Steady Target the Ultralisks but I guess that's another can of worms entirely. - Make Cyclone reliable anti - air footman for mech and remove the gimmick lock on ability, good units are just good, they don't need a gimmick ability as a crutch, that's bad/lazy design. - Redistribute air power, take something away from Liberators (like the ground mode upgrade with a damage nerf or something) and make Viking ground mode actually good for once in 5 years. Currently the Liberator takes the identity away from the Banshee for air to ground drone kills and air power from the Viking, this is bad/lazy design as well. 1 unit overlapping all other Starport units? Tell me that's not bad/lazy design. - Remove idiotic Tank/Medivac ability, the novelty has worn off and it's cancer for TvT, not sure the balance teams obsession with the tank sucking and retaining this gimmick ability. - Do work on Ghosts/Infestors/Ravens, make them better somehow, currently they are all super niche while the High Templar is a staple unit in every match up, are the other races not allowed to have good spell casters or something? Okay the Viper is good, but Infestors are still pretty terrible and vulnerable at best. - Tone down Ultralisk armor or give Marauder single attacks back so they don't get affected twice by armor - Raise Tempest supply to 6 because common sense dictates that this unit and the Cyclone probably shouldn't use the same supply. - Rework Nydus to not be a gimmick - Remove Swarm Hosts from the game entirely, they serve no real purpose to the Swarm, sorry David, time to let this one go, it's a failed implementation. There you go, game is pretty much 100% if all of these went through.
I 100% agree with this. The game is in serious trouble and Blizzard is doing too little to save it. The above changes would change the status of SC2 from dying to doing well.
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I don't play so i know nothing but...
Won't the spore buff negates muta build in ZvZ ?
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On July 01 2016 01:33 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 21:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... I agree, the list is huge. The only thing I would remove is Parasitic Bomb (only thing that let's you come back in Mutalisk wars or do jack shit against bigger aerial armies)
parasitic bomb is a problem because terran has no answer to BL/viper. broodlords can only be countered by air units and vipers destroy air units. yes you can emp/snipe them but if the zerg is careful and slowly pushes with mass spores it's impossible to do that.
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Norway839 Posts
On July 01 2016 02:33 FFW_Rude wrote:
I don't play so i know nothing but...
Won't the spore buff negates muta build in ZvZ ?
very minor implications for zvz. it's useful for the catz spore rush where rooting time is important, but in general in other scenarios people very rarely unroot spores. it does matter, but it's very insignificant compared to the spore vs bio damage buff for example 
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On July 01 2016 02:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2016 01:33 Beelzebub1 wrote:On June 30 2016 21:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... I agree, the list is huge. The only thing I would remove is Parasitic Bomb (only thing that let's you come back in Mutalisk wars or do jack shit against bigger aerial armies) parasitic bomb is a problem because terran has no answer to BL/viper. broodlords can only be countered by air units and vipers destroy air units. yes you can emp/snipe them but if the zerg is careful and slowly pushes with mass spores it's impossible to do that.
That sounds like a "Terran late game anti - air kind of sucks" but Brood Lord/Viper is one of those (I really hate saying this because it's bullshit but it's so true) "do not let them get there" kind of thing.
Nobody calls Sky Protoss imbalanced because there is a clear indicator that he's going Sky toss and you just flat out have to kill the Protoss before they can mass 20 + Tempests with Archons and High Templars underneath them. To afford Broodlords and Viper that's telling me that the Terran pretty much let the Zerg have a 5th and 6th with all 4 geysers base almost totally uncontested.
I've also seen Ghosts do bad things to Zerg tier 3 if you can make them work. Slowly pushing with mass spores while controlling Vipers and Broodlords and defending bases (that 5th and 6th) is a mechanical/multitasking/micro nightmare, I applaud any Zerg who can make that work vs Terran without getting double dropped in the main and 4th base and just auto lose.
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Queen buff would help against early game phoenix harass, although it could also make banshee harass near impossible.
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On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough...
the #1 reason mech is useless vZ is because of invincible nydus worms. roach/nydus gives you free win if terran opens hellion/hellbat/banshee.
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On July 01 2016 03:00 Liquid`Snute wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2016 02:33 FFW_Rude wrote:
I don't play so i know nothing but...
Won't the spore buff negates muta build in ZvZ ? very minor implications for zvz. it's useful for the catz spore rush where rooting time is important, but in general in other scenarios people very rarely unroot spores. it does matter, but it's very insignificant compared to the spore vs bio damage buff for example
The Queen buff, on the other hand, would be very significant for ZvZ vs muta.
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On July 01 2016 04:39 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... the #1 reason mech is useless vZ is because of invincible nydus worms. roach/nydus gives you free win if terran opens hellion/hellbat/banshee.
if you can get an armory in time hellbat banshee shuts nydus allins down hard.
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On July 01 2016 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2016 04:39 SHODAN wrote:On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... the #1 reason mech is useless vZ is because of invincible nydus worms. roach/nydus gives you free win if terran opens hellion/hellbat/banshee. if you can get an armory in time hellbat banshee shuts nydus allins down hard.
can you share any replays? how do you deal with the queens/overseer? how do you not lose your reactor/techlab? or most of your scvs?
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On July 01 2016 03:00 Liquid`Snute wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2016 02:33 FFW_Rude wrote:
I don't play so i know nothing but...
Won't the spore buff negates muta build in ZvZ ? very minor implications for zvz. it's useful for the catz spore rush where rooting time is important, but in general in other scenarios people very rarely unroot spores. it does matter, but it's very insignificant compared to the spore vs bio damage buff for example
Oh ok thx.
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On July 01 2016 06:16 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2016 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2016 04:39 SHODAN wrote:On June 30 2016 16:18 SwiftCrane wrote:
Really?! Instead of addressing pressing matters like parasitic bomb, tankevac, tempest 4 supply, ultra armor, ravagers, adepts, immortal damage, pylon overcharge, current state of raven, cyclone being useless, mech beng useless... they go for a queen range buff and spore root time? LOLOL It's nowhere near in the right direction, and even if it was, it wouldn;t be anywhere near enough... the #1 reason mech is useless vZ is because of invincible nydus worms. roach/nydus gives you free win if terran opens hellion/hellbat/banshee. if you can get an armory in time hellbat banshee shuts nydus allins down hard. can you share any replays? how do you deal with the queens/overseer? how do you not lose your reactor/techlab? or most of your scvs?
i can't find the replays but if you have 6-8 hellbats with banshees and possibly a liberator with scv surround the nydus gets shut down. you just have to scout it in time so you have your units in your base. early lair is an obvious tell it's either nydus or 2 base muta if you see roaches it's almost certainly a nydus.
another story is it when they make the nydus outside of your base and slowly push with queens towards your base but no zerg I've faced was smart enough to do that and I open hellion/banshee every game.
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On June 29 2016 07:22 ZenithM wrote:
I have bad memories of when the "other" queen range was buffed.
Me too.
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since they're trying to balance things by doing very small tweaks I wonder why they're not considering the increased larvae for lair and hive. It's a really small buff, but hey 1-2 more larvae by round in the midgame is not totally negligible.
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Looks like they're pushing the change through faster than usual to try to save KR zergs from extinction: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20745685920. I personally dislike the changes, but a change of some sort is probably necessary before SSL or GSL, so there isn't really time to explore more options :/.
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the queen is the only instant AA defense a zerg has versus liberator...i think the liberator already takes enough position as it is to avoid being hit by moving targets. The spore buff seems okay, but the queen range buff? I feel like that just adds a benefit against too many different things beyond what it is meant to counter (liberators)
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EPT
