EPTLadder Revamp - Page 12
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
- Contender league is a parallel league that is always open, not just for the promotion window times. Players can be in Master league and Contender league at the same time, so it's more of a preview window of who will get into GM. - MMR will not be reset (makes sense, no reason for it, only the presentation is changing) - MMR will be visible on any player's profile in the Division View (e.g., here, in the bottom margin). You will not be able to see other players' MMRs outside of a game without going into their individual profile pages. - The decision to show MMR outweighed the concern of ladder anxiety, so it cannot be hidden by a toggle in the Options menu, for example. However, it is not overly prominent in order to avoid toxic behavior (that's why you have to do some digging before you can find other players' MMRs). - League sizes/population distribution will continue to happen on a seasonal basis, as it always has. - MMRs will still not be comparable across regions (4k on one server may not carry the same meaning as 4k on another). - The activity requirement for GM league changed from 180 bonus pool to 10 games per 3 weeks to allow pro players to travel without jeopardizing their ranking (plus the really good players could have difficulty spending bonus pool fast enough). - The ladder revamp affects all expansion levels (WoL, HotS, LotV). - Divisions were not removed so that the change to a more MMR-focused ladder would be less jarring. Therefore, players who enjoy the division system can still find fun in it. - Demotions outside of GM will continue to be locked during a season. - The rating bar that serves as a promotion indicator will warn you that you may be demoted next season if it goes into the negative. Additionally, hovering over the bar shows the exact MMR requirements to reach the next tier. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On July 07 2016 04:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just want it to be live already, cmon blizzard "very very soon™" - DK | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
1. It's great news that MMR is displayed for everyone, even despite the fact that you have to dig for it because it would supposedly cause ladder anxiety if it were more prominent (lol). It would be preferable to also show percentile, instead of having to work it out and rely on the last season's percentiles on the promotion bar, but unfortunately that's not currently happening. 2. So what we have is effectively Overwatch's system, with less prominence in skill rating because of ladder anxiety. But Overwatch was able to deliver their superior ladder system in 2 months while this has taken 6 years or almost 1 year, depending on when you start the count. 3. We got new information that the Contender List is always active, but that the Contender Ladder at 5PM to 8PM, which as I originally noted was a needlessly bizarre contrivance, is completely pointless, because you don't actually have to play at 5PM to 8PM to get into GM. In fact there's no good reason to demote at 5PM and promote at 8PM, when you can update everything in one go at 8PM. But who cares? 4. The excuse not to replace divisions with league tiers because they don't want to take away from people who enjoy divisions is a complete cop-out. All you have to do is divide the tier rank by the number of people in the tier and then multiply by 100. It's not hard. | ||
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flyleaf
Germany89 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
On July 08 2016 18:08 flyleaf wrote: I don't know if they answered it somewhere but will it be possible (via API?) to extract all the player MMR's to put them into a single big ranking for a 3rd party site (rankedftw for example)? Yes, MMR will be part of the API. It will be roughly as expensive as digging through divisions (though I don't know if rankedftw's crawler is as powerful and thorough as sc2ranks' was). | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On July 07 2016 14:53 paralleluniverse wrote: 3. We got new information that the Contender List is always active, but that the Contender Ladder at 5PM to 8PM, which as I originally noted was a needlessly bizarre contrivance, is completely pointless, because you don't actually have to play at 5PM to 8PM to get into GM. In fact there's no good reason to demote at 5PM and promote at 8PM, when you can update everything in one go at 8PM. But who cares? It's not pointless. Why would you say it's pointless? It's pointless for the people who can't play during that time but I'm sure they picked the time based on when most people can/do play. And for those people, staggering it is much better than having it happen all at once. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4558 Posts
On July 08 2016 18:08 flyleaf wrote: I don't know if they answered it somewhere but will it be possible (via API?) to extract all the player MMR's to put them into a single big ranking for a 3rd party site (rankedftw for example)? Not entirely sure what you're trying to say but it's stated above that the MMR on one region =/= MMR of another. So pooling them will not necessarily give anyone an accurate indication of global skill level. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 09 2016 01:30 NonY wrote: It's not pointless. Why would you say it's pointless? It's pointless for the people who can't play during that time but I'm sure they picked the time based on when most people can/do play. And for those people, staggering it is much better than having it happen all at once. It's pointless because you always know where your position is as both GM and Contender is always shown and there's nothing special about 5PM to 8PM. It changes no behavior, a rational player could ignore the demotion at 5PM and that would not change their chances of getting into or staying in GM. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
On July 09 2016 01:30 NonY wrote: It's not pointless. Why would you say it's pointless? It's pointless for the people who can't play during that time but I'm sure they picked the time based on when most people can/do play. And for those people, staggering it is much better than having it happen all at once. I think he means that it's not the 100-yard-dash that it was initially presented to be, and that's a little disillusioning. Perception: Players have 3 hours each day to get to the top 10 of this temporary league so they can get promoted into GM! Reality: The league is permanent and parallel. As long as you are in the top 10 by 8pm local time, you get into GM. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it's pointless since there still is some potential for excitement there, but it's definitely dialed down from the original expectation. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 09 2016 11:07 Excalibur_Z wrote: I think he means that it's not the 100-yard-dash that it was initially presented to be, and that's a little disillusioning. Perception: Players have 3 hours each day to get to the top 10 of this temporary league so they can get promoted into GM! Reality: The league is permanent and parallel. As long as you are in the top 10 by 8pm local time, you get into GM. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it's pointless since there still is some potential for excitement there, but it's definitely dialed down from the original expectation. I'm not disillusioned, I'm glad it's not the 3 hour dash (but that was the initial impression). That would be crazy. What happens if you can't play during those 3 hours, or if the timezone is bad? I'm just saying there would be no difference between what is proposed and updating everything at 8PM, under both systems, the behavior of rational players and the information shown would be equivalent. So why demote at 5PM instead of just updating everything at 8PM? | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On July 09 2016 11:15 paralleluniverse wrote: I'm not disillusioned, I'm glad it's not the 3 hour dash (but that was the initial impression). That would be crazy. What happens if you can't play during those 3 hours, or if the timezone is bad? I'm just saying there would be no difference between what is proposed and updating everything at 8PM, under both systems, the behavior of rational players would be equivalent. So why demote at 5PM instead of just updating everything at 8PM? Why have a ladder display at all? Record everyone's games for all of SC2's life and on the last day before it shuts down, publish the ranking. The rational player is not going to do anything differently. Winning as many games as you can is always the best thing to do. I can't fathom how you can't see the difference. You're in a thread about the ladder, the thing that tracks your progress in real time game-by-game, and you're saying that you don't see the point in its fundamental purpose. I'm not even sure how to explain what the purpose of the ladder is, or how the stagger represents a microcosm of what the ladder is. If you find ranking as trivial information to your rational mind, then don't worry about it. On July 09 2016 11:02 paralleluniverse wrote: It's pointless because you always know where your position is as both GM and Contender is always shown and there's nothing special about 5PM to 8PM. And this is just false... IDK what you think it is. Maybe it's your misunderstanding of it that is confusing you about its purpose. The Contender List is a real-time reflection of the highest rated players who aren't currently in Grandmaster. It is constantly updating throughout the day, not just during the promotion window. At 5pm, the bottom 5% of Grandmaster are moved from Grandmaster to Masters. Those players will show up on the Contender List as long as they are within the top 200 non-GM players. This is what Chris Lee wrote which is what we're all discussing right? It's the only source of this info afaik so I don't think there's any confusion about it. At 5pm, 10 players from GM get demoted to Masters. For simplicity, let's just assume they've performed well enough to make the Contender List. So GM now has 190 players and 10 new players have suddenly appeared on the Contender List. The recently demoted players want to know if they're in a position to defend their spot and get back into GM in 3 hours. The Masters players get to see the full ranking now with the new demotions included. A period of heightened competition commences, for anyone who cares about it. The system at least displays the info and gives people the knowledge required to enjoy that extra dimension of their performance. I guess if you don't care about it then you don't care but like I said, why are you interested in the ladder at all then? That's all it is is stuff like this. Keeping the system the same but having 5pm and 8pm happen simultaneously instead would just be weird, as Contender players and the bottom 5% GM players never know where they stand, and some GM players would appear to not get demoted at all, as they may instantly re-promote if they place in top 10 Contender. If you just demote the bottom 5% no matter what, so they're out of GM for 24 hours at least, then that's really weird. Cuz what if those players really are the 191st-200th best players in the region? They share GM with the 201st-210th every other day? I think what Blizzard has done is a nice solution to the inherent roughness of promoting and demoting from GM, because they solve that problem while also creating a fun new aspect of the ladder that didn't exist before. Some players may ignore it, but some players get to indulge in the type of fun that ladder qualifiers provide, like regional challenger WCS. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 09 2016 11:29 NonY wrote: Why have a ladder display at all? Record everyone's games for all of SC2's life and on the last day before it shuts down, publish the ranking. The rational player is not going to do anything differently. Winning as many games as you can is always the best thing to do. I can't fathom how you can't see the difference. You're in a thread about the ladder, the thing that tracks your progress in real time game-by-game, and you're saying that you don't see the point in its fundamental purpose. I'm not even sure how to explain what the purpose of the ladder is, or how the stagger represents a microcosm of what the ladder is. If you find ranking as trivial information to your rational mind, then don't worry about it. And this is just false... IDK what you think it is. Maybe it's your misunderstanding of it that is confusing you about its purpose. This is what Chris Lee wrote which is what we're all discussing right? It's the only source of this info afaik so I don't think there's any confusion about it. At 5pm, 10 players from GM get demoted to Masters. For simplicity, let's just assume they've performed well enough to make the Contender List. So GM now has 190 players and 10 new players have suddenly appeared on the Contender List. The recently demoted players want to know if they're in a position to defend their spot and get back into GM in 3 hours. The Masters players get to see the full ranking now with the new demotions included. A period of heightened competition commences, for anyone who cares about it. The system at least displays the info and gives people the knowledge required to enjoy that extra dimension of their performance. I guess if you don't care about it then you don't care but like I said, why are you interested in the ladder at all then? That's all it is is stuff like this. Keeping the system the same but having 5pm and 8pm happen simultaneously instead would just be weird, as Contender players and the bottom 5% GM players never know where they stand, and some GM players would appear to not get demoted at all, as they may instantly re-promote if they place in top 10 Contender. If you just demote the bottom 5% no matter what, so they're out of GM for 24 hours at least, then that's really weird. Cuz what if those players really are the 191st-200th best players in the region? They share GM with the 201st-210th every other day? I think what Blizzard has done is a nice solution to the inherent roughness of promoting and demoting from GM, because they solve that problem while also creating a fun new aspect of the ladder that didn't exist before. Some players may ignore it, but some players get to indulge in the type of fun that ladder qualifiers provide, like regional challenger WCS. The purpose of a ladder system is to rank players accurately. The recently demoted players want to know if they're in a position to defend their spot and get back into GM in 3 hours. They always know this. Both GM and Contender are always shown. The Masters players get to see the full ranking now with the new demotions included. They always know this. Both GM and Contender are always shown. A period of heightened competition commences, for anyone who cares about it. The system at least displays the info and gives people the knowledge required to enjoy that extra dimension of their performance. I guess if you don't care about it then you don't care but like I said, why are you interested in the ladder at all then? That's all it is is stuff like this. There is nothing "extra". Everything is already known, regardless of the demotion at 5PM. Keeping the system the same but having 5pm and 8pm happen simultaneously instead would just be weird, as Contender players and the bottom 5% GM players never know where they stand, and some GM players would appear to not get demoted at all, as they may instantly re-promote if they place in top 10 Contender. They always know this. Both GM and Contender are always shown. So in conclusion, there's nothing gained from demoting at 5PM and promoting at 8PM. There is no new information, and there's nothing special about playing at 5PM to 8PM. And what if the top 11 in Contender gets a higher MMR than the 190th player in GM. Will the 190th player be demoted at 8PM (as he should be) because he's not in the top 200 anymore. If he remains, then preventing this inaccurate ranking is another reason to do everything in 1 go. | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
The Contender List is a real-time reflection of the highest rated players who aren't currently in Grandmaster. This is the thing we're reading for a third time now and I still don't see how it's ambiguous and yet we each think it's totally obvious that it means something different. 4:59pm there are 200 GM players who are currently in GM, therefore there is no real-time reflection of any of them on the Contender List. At 5pm, 10 players get booted out and are now among the "highest rated players who aren't currently in GM" and so "the Contender List is a real-time reflection" of them. Players who were never in GM were on the Contender List the whole time and were probably paying attention to it, but the list was not complete until 5pm. Then they have until 8pm to enjoy competing with full information. The new information consists of the placement of each recently demoted player. 5pm-8pm is special because it's the only time the full list can be seen. If the 11th best non-GM is better than the 190th GM, that is a totally separate issue from the 5pm-8pm thing. That is solved by demoting more people at 5pm. If you did it all in one go, you'd still have to decide how many can be demoted, just like the designers of this system decided on 10. Your suggestion is that the number of people demoted should be determined by the number of GM players with a lower MMR than Masters players, yeah? The 5pm-8pm system could do that just the same as a simultaneous system. Whether that's a good idea is its own discussion. Excalibur_Z plz help | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
bottom-20 GM Contender, before 5PM All the Contender people are in Master League before 5pm. Then after 5pm they would weave together, like this: bottom-20 GM Contender, after 5PM ** = Demoted GM players Some of the Master players already had MMRs higher than the bottom 10 GMs so it should require no extra effort for them to get promoted unless they happen to get passed up by multiple people. The 191-192 spots in this example are still in the top 10 of Contender, but it's really close, so they'll probably have to do some work to secure their spots in the 3 hours before the promotions happen. The 194-200 spots are gonna be pretty fiercely competitive because they're interwoven pretty tightly with Master players. So if you're in the bottom 10 spots of GM, you would already be able to see where you would land when the demotions happen and what the likelihood is that you'll be able to keep your spot. If I'm #194 in GM and have 5490 MMR then I'd look at Contender and say to myself "5490... 5490... where would that put me... oh, #9, that's not good, I'm gonna get knocked out unless I win at least one more game" because I would know that I still had 3 players above me who were also facing demotions that day. | ||
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evolsiefil
143 Posts
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Krugessin
Sweden54 Posts
The various changes to my laddering experience in *cough* lower leagues sound nice and all but I didn't really pay attention to the daily master/GM contender thing. I wonder if we have the technology or voodoo to have TL tag any bottom GM and contender streamers at the relevant hours... That would be truly lovely, as top master (contenders) and low GM league will be quite interesting to follow in the afternoon/evenings.  Ladder hype! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Krugessin
Sweden54 Posts
Getting GM will maybe be less of a momentous thing with the daily chance of promotion and risk of demotion but this new way will make more immediate sense to us scrub viewers than the previous "No open slots" and MMR guesstimates and unknown promotion scheme. | ||
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