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+ Show Spoiler +On April 22 2016 15:49 ClysmiC wrote:This looks to be the match Life threw vs Dream Starts at 13 min in the video.
lol wow, I remember watching that live and rewatching it now.... Losing the 3 drones in the beginning to 1 reaper when he had enough money to make a spore each time. Then the way he just straight up fed lings to the helions.
Ill have to watch the game vs Terminator* next.
Edit - *Terminator I mean, not super*
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37101 Posts
On April 22 2016 16:16 NyxNax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol wow, I remember watching that live and rewatching it now.... Losing the 3 drones in the beginning to 1 reaper when he had enough money to make a spore each time. Then the way he just straight up fed lings to the helions. Ill have to watch the game vs super next.
Terminator, not Super.
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On April 22 2016 16:17 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 16:16 NyxNax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol wow, I remember watching that live and rewatching it now.... Losing the 3 drones in the beginning to 1 reaper when he had enough money to make a spore each time. Then the way he just straight up fed lings to the helions. Ill have to watch the game vs super next. Terminator, not Super.
Dang you were too fast! haha 
Watching the 2 games Life lost, do we know for sure which one it was? Echo or Iron Fortress?
Here's the links to both games for anyone else interested, guessing someone might've posted before but havent gone through all the pages.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Edit - LoL, well after watching both games, I think it's safe to say it was Echo (first video, set2)... Loses 3rd and just leaves the game. 0 engagements.
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You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
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On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote:
You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
I agree with this to an extent. People saying that this shouldn't tarnish his accomplishments I think is just plain wrong. As good as you can be, you can never be both the best and a cheater. He was a player of tremendous skill, but any respect I had for him, despite his accomplishments, is long gone.
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Yea, Life never can be the greatest. Being the greatest is more than just winning a lot, it is about your legacy. A legacy like Flash, or Jaedong or Mvp. Life's legacy is that he's a corrupt nitwit who doesn't respect his fans or the game that gave him his success. Not really the mark of greatness.
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On the contrary, Life is so great that he could throw games for money and still win. And calling them "cheaters" isn't exactly factually correct.
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On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote:
You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
I second this position, really well put and sums up my thoughts exactly! I'm just really heartbroken right now about G5L that Mvp never got because of Life. If Life didn't do this, then I would have been fine with it (as I have been up until now), one great player stepped down to make room for his successor, but now it's kinda feels wrong.
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On April 22 2016 18:21 opisska wrote:
On the contrary, Life is so great that he could throw games for money and still win. And calling them "cheaters" isn't exactly factually correct.
Are you trolling at this point, or just looking for more drama?
Of course it's cheating, don't make light of match-fixing or use dumb semantics to down-play the severity of the situation.
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France13011 Posts
On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote:
You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less.
I dunno man, I read a great article about saviOr hyping up his play and stuff and since I didn't follow BW, he seems like one of the greatest and no matter what he did, I'll hold him as someone who was able to "save" (lol) zerg in spite of the odds!
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On April 22 2016 18:31 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 18:21 opisska wrote:
On the contrary, Life is so great that he could throw games for money and still win. And calling them "cheaters" isn't exactly factually correct. Are you trolling at this point, or just looking for more drama? Of course it's cheating, don't make light of match-fixing or use dumb semantics to down-play the severity of the situation.
"Cheating" is when someone unfairly obtains an advantage in a game. How did anyone who throw a game obtain an advantage in SC2? Surely, they have "cheated" the bettors, but I have really already explained, why I don't care too much about those. As for SC2, they have only put themselves in a disadvantage. If I found a champion did achieve his titles by actual cheating (hacking, receiving extra information or even having opponents to match-fix in their favor), I would grab all my pitchforks and would support a swift removal of all their honors. But this is a very different situation. It seems reasonable to exclude them from further competition (if anything, than because of the bad taste), but everything they won, was won fairly, unless proven otherwise. And here we should note that Life won a lot.
You should finally comprehend that your attitude that match-fixing is severe is not a universal truth and that other viewpoints are possible. I am not going to stop "making light" of match-fixing and downplaying the "severity of the situation" just because you say so. You can't win in a discussion by saying that the other side of the argument should just shut up.
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You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
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On April 22 2016 18:37 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 17:00 Incognoto wrote:
You're only #1 if your integrity is without fail.
This is not Life's case, so neither he nor, nor Bboyng, nor Savior deserve any recognition for their accomplishments.
There is no #1, there hasn't been since MVP left his throne. You can say what you want about Life's technical skill, but being a progamer is much more than that. If it weren't, then no one would care about match-fixing in the first place.
Life got close to the empty throne, but turned out to be a cheat thus he is no longer a contender.
Thus, there is no top player, yet. Just like Brood War suffered from Savior, Starcraft 2 suffered from Life.
Look at the good side instead: MVP was Starcraft 2's Boxer, so instead of being sad, we should all look forward to what's to come. We may yet get our Jaedong and Flash.
I am personally more invested than I ever have been in the Starcraft scene. I hope that other people look at the blow Starcraft suffered and choose to rally behind it more than before, rather than less. I dunno man, I read a great article about saviOr hyping up his play and stuff and since I didn't follow BW, he seems like one of the greatest and no matter what he did, I'll hold him as someone who was able to "save" (lol) zerg in spite of the odds!
Well as far as I can tell, Savior is still at least still widely acknowledged as a bonjwa.
I think it's silly to deny Life his throne. It's like pretending an inconvenient part of history didn't happen. Just be mature enough to praise the amazing skill he demonstrated inside the game while also realizing the tragedy of who he became outside of it 
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On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote:
You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that.
Second, now you are just making arguments by putting pieces upon foundations you completely made up. What is "meaningful" and why is anyone obliged to follow your definition of it? Why do you get to decide for the "scene" what rights it has? Is there even anything like a singular "scene"? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions?
Finally, I really don't subscribe to the idea that there is more than skill to being a good player. In particular, I don't like when the game turns into a popularity contest. Maybe the "match-fixers" did things that make you don't like them, fine. But when it comes to the game itself, they did nothing but made the game harder for themselves.
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France13011 Posts
On April 22 2016 19:10 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote:
You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player. First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that. Second, now you are just making arguments by putting pieces upon foundations you completely made up. What is "meaningful" and why is anyone obliged to follow your definition of it? Why do you get to decide for the "scene" what rights it has? Is there even anything like a singular "scene"? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions? Finally, I really don't subscribe to the idea that there is more than skill to being a good player. In particular, I don't like when the game turns into a popularity contest. Maybe the "match-fixers" did things that make you don't like them, fine. But when it comes to the game itself, they did nothing but made the game harder for themselves.
Lol he didn't make the game harder for himself.
You realize that if you matchfix you have far less pressure in every match because you don't actually care winning or losing, since some games will bring you a lot of money just losing. His legit opponents (not necessarily the ones he faced directly but the others in the tourneys) didn't have the safe net of "free" money.
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I love how this thread derailed to the classic "Life GOAT or not?" debate
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On April 22 2016 19:34 OtherWorld wrote:
I love how this thread derailed to the classic "Life GOAT or not?" debate
Blame lichter 
I read your stance on things btw and it kinda makes sense, i still don't buy into "by punishing these guys we also punish us" as a valid argument tbh. At leat not fully.
Would need to think about it a little more though
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On April 22 2016 19:10 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote:
You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player. First of all, a little life (no pun intended) trick: putting words in capital letters doesn't make your argument sound more compelling, it only makes you look like you can't type properly, so you might as well not do that. Second, now you are just making arguments by putting pieces upon foundations you completely made up. What is "meaningful" and why is anyone obliged to follow your definition of it? Why do you get to decide for the "scene" what rights it has? Is there even anything like a singular "scene"? Aren't people entitled to their own opinions? Finally, I really don't subscribe to the idea that there is more than skill to being a good player. In particular, I don't like when the game turns into a popularity contest. Maybe the "match-fixers" did things that make you don't like them, fine. But when it comes to the game itself, they did nothing but made the game harder for themselves.
They hurt the game's credibility. They hurt its position to attract sponsors. They hurt its ability to gain fans. They hurt its viability as an esport. You try to come across as such a savy dude who knows how stuff works, but the truth is that your stance of "match fixing is no big deal" shoots beyond naive and lands squarely into the delusional territory.
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The GOAT list whilst a very nice read is only 1 man's opinion, nothing official, and even then Life was not considered GOAT. So how the hell are people who have clearly never even read the list saying he is GOAT??? Cheating little scum bag who could only ling all in. NEVER GOAT!!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 22 2016 18:52 Incognoto wrote:
You think that cheating only matters when it is done for the benefit of the cheater and therein lies your error. Life and other match-fixers cheated in a way that benefitted their opponent when it comes to the actual Starcraft match, but it was done to the DETRIMENT of the Starcraft scene, the opponents who unknowingly got a free-win, the tournament organizers who hosted the event, the viewers who were watching a fair game.
THEY are the ones who got cheated. Don't say otherwise. It is cheating.
The accomplishments of Life are meaningful only if his competitors were also playing in a meaningful way. Life's accomplishments are supported by the entire scene. If he does not respect that scene, then the scene has no right to acknowledge Life's accomplishments either.
If Life does not play in a meaningful way, then his accomplishments are also meangingless. I do not personally acknowledge as a good player anymore. Regardless of your technical skill, there's more to it than just that when it comes to being a good player.
I somewhat respectfully disagree. Being a good player is exactly that. Being a good sportsman, however, and a great role model for other players, is something different. If you want to make the distinction, then separate best player from greatest player. I see many people make that distinction, and it at least holds together. But technical skill is the fundamental part of playing a game, and it's irrational to deny that a player was good because X happened. People don't deny saviOr the same thing, and I think it would be absurd to deny that Life was a stellar player. An asshole, maybe, but that does not factor in.
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