On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Come on, we're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about win-trading. Blizzard's investigation, assuming it has been made in legal ways, includes most likely two things : analysis of SC2-related data (chat-logs), and analysis of replays themselves. Thus, any potential wintrader now knows that he shouldn't communicate with his fellow wintrader through chat logs and that him leaving the game shouldn't look too suspicious. What additional information could the investigation give?
For your second point, just ask for the player's consent. If he doesn't want the information to be published, then you put a nice [The concerned player deemed this information as confidential and did not wish to see it published] instead of said information. Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
I think you're underestimating how much telemetry Blizzard has.
Also no way Blizzard legal agrees to revealing user information and metadata to the public even with permission. There are way too many repercussions that extend far beyond WCS.
As NonY said ; they may have fucktons of telemetry, but what is needed to show us that player X wintraded is not that important.
On April 15 2016 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Isn't account sharing how Korean teamhouses practice?
Ladder qualification isn't a concern for them though
It's not but they explicitly said account sharing is not allowed. This means they should all be banned and stripped of WCS points. SSL, GSL, and Proleague should be forced to close as well.
They did say it was okay as long as they don't win trade to manipulate the ranking
On April 15 2016 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Isn't account sharing how Korean teamhouses practice?
Ladder qualification isn't a concern for them though
It's not but they explicitly said account sharing is not allowed. This means they should all be banned and stripped of WCS points. SSL, GSL, and Proleague should be forced to close as well.
They did say it was okay as long as they don't win trade to manipulate the ranking
There are no reason to ban koreans from their leagues just because in those tournaments ladder points don't matter.
Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
EDIT: Also saying we shouldn't trust Blizzard when MajOr's shittary is well documented over years and years seems odd coming from someone saying players should be professionals.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
Unless he has other stuff in his chat logs that he doesn't want the public to see?
I'm not really buying your "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" argument.
WE don't have any clear evidence. Don't be smartasses with claims you know exactly what is happening. What Blizzard is sharing with us is simply not enough.
So yeah, everyone believes what they want to believe, be it guilty or innocent. But in the end only the players know truth.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
If my chat logs were innocent in terms of cheating I'd still not release them because that shit is foul and not for children's eyes... Get real, there's going to be private stuff, unflattering conversations and business stuff in there that's not for the public eye.
Also any asshole can "omit" to include certain pieces of a chat log. Source: US Secretary of State
On April 15 2016 04:53 Melliflue wrote: Three threads popped up about this, and for what it's worth I find this one to be by far the easiest to read. Thanks Yhamm.
and there goes marinelord career... What a gigantic waste of talent
I hope that is not the case. I think he deserves the punishment to not participate on DH. But other than that no hard feelings. His reputation is clean on my book and hopefully not sullied for Millenium, the fans or any sponsor. My big concern is his motivation.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
Read my earlier comment. MajOr don't need to have done anything at all. Perhaps he didn't do anything, a part from sharing the account that was used for win-trading, which, according to Blizzard, makes him just as guilty as whoever did the win-trading. I guess they're trying to make a point that if you share accounts, this could happen.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
I keep laughing when I read your posts, as if this was your first time dealing with Blizzard Entertainment and you're expecting something greater.
We are talking about Blizzard Entertainment here.
Blizzard Entertainment.
The technology just isn't there yet for them to be competent enough to show you they are competent. Heads have needed to roll for so long at that company that expecting competency at this point is just hilarious. We should be calling for nothing less than multiple people to be fired. The fact that the people Major "win traded" with aren't being punished and made public is damning. You can't win trade with no one.
EPT
