Following WCS Challenger – Europe, several players were removed from ongoing Challenger competition due to evidence of win-trading and other offenses. We conducted a deeper investigation into player behavior on the European ladder during the competition period to see if it met the standards set forth in the 2016 WCS Rules, StarCraft II End User License Agreement, and rules published by event organizer DreamHack. That investigation has now concluded, and we present the results below:
DnS, MarineLorD, MajOr Win-trading
During the final hours of the ladder portion of the WCS Challenger – Europe, DnS played three ladder matches with a Terran, barcode-named player. DnS won two out of the three matches. Upon examining these matches and accounts in question, it was found that two players in the top 25 rankings had access to the barcoded Terran account: MajOr and MarineLorD. These matches were win-trades played to increase DnS’s rating without sacrificing either MajOr or MarineLorD’s ladder rank. In addition, the match DnS lost to the Terran barcode-named account appears to be a deliberate attempt to cover their tracks.
MajOr Ladder Behavior
After examining the DnS matches, we expanded our search to all players in the top 25. We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins. Though suspicious queuing behavior occurred, we cannot prove that any of the players that received free wins directly requested them from MajOr, so we have decided not to list the suspect matches publicly.
We also took a closer look at other matches and players reported to us in addition to those flagged by our internal investigators. In those cases, we found no definitive evidence. Again, we will not be sharing specific matches to preserve the assumption of innocence for those players.
Ruling
DnS, MarineLorD, and MajOr are in violation of Section 6.2.a of the 2016 WCS Rules, and additional violations of Section 1.A.iv of the StarCraft II End User License Agreement occurred as well.
All accounts involved with these instances of win-trading will be closed.
DnS, MarineLorD, and MajOr will be suspended from Blizzard-sponsored events occurring on-or-before June 30 (players will be allowed to compete in qualifiers or Challengers for events that occur after June 30).
The 2016 WCS points already accrued by DnS, MarineLorD, and MajOr will be removed from their records. They will be able to accrue WCS points again once their suspension has been lifted. The voided points will still be used for seeding purposes, but not for invites to future events.
MarineLorD is retroactively disqualified from the French National qualifier of DreamHack ZOWIE Open: Tours, and the spot will be offered to the next-highest placing player.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder, and Blizzard and tournament administrators will examine their records closely during future ladder competitions.
Additional Comments
We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment. Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question. We take this stance to prevent pro-level players from ranking up accounts and then distributing them to third parties to manipulate the standings.
Blizzard Entertainment will continue to monitor all esports competitions, especially ones we sponsor or run directly. As a core part of the StarCraft II experience, we take behavior on the ladder very seriously. We reserve the right to escalate our responses to these issues in order to discourage future ladder manipulation. Ladder-integration into the World Championship Series this year has had many positive effects for viewers and players alike, but in order to keep the ladder as a method of qualification, we must remain vigilant against unfair manipulation.
Lessons Learned
For future seasons of WCS, we will ensure there is enough time to conclude a full investigation of player behavior after ladder competition has concluded, so we do not have to issue preliminary results. We will consider additional rules about replay saving, and match forfeits for future competitions as well.
I guess if they have definitive proof that they were deliberately giving up matches. It seems incredibly dumb for them to actually use in-game chat for this, though. -_-
Idk how I feel about the punishment. It was only a qualifier, and it was a ladder qualifier. But I think just D/Q'ing them would have been appropriate. I'm glad "match-fixing" wasn't used in the statement, though. Win-trading is way more appropriate of a term to use here...
Wait so because their points are used for seeding but not invites does that mean they count toward Blizzcon? Is being at Blizzcon considered being seeded as a top 8 player or an invite based on being in the top 8 points?
They should have just banned them for the entire year instead of removing their WCS points and creating such a weird punishment. Would have caused much less complaints.
On April 15 2016 05:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: Wait so because their points are used for seeding but not invites does that mean they count toward Blizzcon? Is being at Blizzcon considered being seeded as a top 8 player or an invite based on being in the top 8 points?
Yeah this line was particularly confusing to me. Whats the difference between a seed and an invite, anyways?
Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
On April 15 2016 05:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: Wait so because their points are used for seeding but not invites does that mean they count toward Blizzcon? Is being at Blizzcon considered being seeded as a top 8 player or an invite based on being in the top 8 points?
Yeah this line was particularly confusing to me. Whats the difference between a seed and an invite, anyways?
They seed things like Dreamhack groups, WCS Championship brackets based on WCS points
So there are 2016 WCS Rules after all? Were they known to the players at the time of the events in question?
Still I think it's pretty dumb, their current setup of the ladder is just inadequate to be taken seriously and they should not try to make it what it isn't, especially when it produces causalities along the way.
How would PtitDrogo even know if majOr was innocent or not.
On April 15 2016 05:07 opisska wrote: So there are 2016 WCS Rules after all? Were they known to the players at the time of the events in question?
Still I think it's pretty dumb, their current setup of the ladder is just inadequate to be taken seriously and they should not try to make it what it isn't, especially when it produces causalities along the way.
Yeah, the rules were published before the qualifiers.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
Wouldn't it be something of a violation of privacy if Blizzard decided to show the chat logs? I realize there are no legal protections, and according the EULA Blizzard can probably do whatever they want. Still, I think most pro players would feel uncomfortable if they thought that Blizzard might publish anything they've ever said in chat while playing an SC2 match.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
You mean like where they tell you about account sharing, instant game leaving and chat logs? Then again you did just write a post saying pros should act professional so maybe this is what you mean.
On April 15 2016 05:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: Wait so because their points are used for seeding but not invites does that mean they count toward Blizzcon? Is being at Blizzcon considered being seeded as a top 8 player or an invite based on being in the top 8 points?
Yeah this line was particularly confusing to me. Whats the difference between a seed and an invite, anyways?
They seed things like Dreamhack groups, WCS Championship brackets based on WCS points
I get that, but what is the wording on a Blizzcon spot? Are you invited based on your point score or are you seeded based on your point score? It appears as though the champions of each major (Polt being the only one currently) get invited based on being the champion, but they refer to it as a seed.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
What? They have access to all of the data, no reason to not believe them. Why do people keep asking for all of the evidence? What do you guys want, screenshots of the chat logs they looked at?
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
What? They have access to all of the data, no reason to not believe them. Why do people keep asking for all of the evidence? What do you guys wants, screenshots of the chat logs they looked at?
Blizzard is a massive entity that, as far as I know, has been hesitant in the past to ban cheaters. I agree, I'd probably trust them.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
lol it's only no Blizzard-sponsored events till June 30th (not including qualifiers for events after that). That's only 2 months. And WCS points up to this point, which only matters for Blizzcon. It's not like Blizzard's retroactively taking away their prize money.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Either way it's a moot point, since I can't see Blizzard legal agreeing to revealing user information and metadata to the public no matter the reason.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Isn't it irrelevant whether or not Maj0r was lying, considering he was also using the account in question? Blizzard stated; "Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question." which means Maj0r is as guilty as whoever else used the account.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Come on, we're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about win-trading. Blizzard's investigation, assuming it has been made in legal ways, includes most likely two things : analysis of SC2-related data (chat-logs), and analysis of replays themselves. Thus, any potential wintrader now knows that he shouldn't communicate with his fellow wintrader through chat logs and that him leaving the game shouldn't look too suspicious. What additional information could the investigation give?
For your second point, just ask for the player's consent. If he doesn't want the information to be published, then you put a nice [The concerned player deemed this information as confidential and did not wish to see it published] instead of said information. Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
"The internal investigation found:" without any evidence brought forth for the public, standard. I guess if you're in the top 16 of the ladder, you should never queue if there is any chance of you having to leave the queue or the game before it is finished. Too suspicious.
Rofl sounds like something Blizzard made up. The best part is that they claim there is a WCS 2016 Rulebook. Since when did this exist?
So if account sharing is against the terms of service and agreement, I guess all the pro SC2 players are fucked then. There's lots of account sharing going on in all regions. Might as well not hold WCS at all and just ban everyone but the casuals.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
The technology just isn't there yet to show you the records NonY.
On April 15 2016 05:35 OtherWorld wrote: Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
And nothing requires them to do it, really.
That's true, as I've already stated. However, since there are no downsides to publishing the proofs while there are downsides to not publishing them, it would seem like a good and logical decision to do it.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Come on, we're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about win-trading. Blizzard's investigation, assuming it has been made in legal ways, includes most likely two things : analysis of SC2-related data (chat-logs), and analysis of replays themselves. Thus, any potential wintrader now knows that he shouldn't communicate with his fellow wintrader through chat logs and that him leaving the game shouldn't look too suspicious. What additional information could the investigation give?
For your second point, just ask for the player's consent. If he doesn't want the information to be published, then you put a nice [The concerned player deemed this information as confidential and did not wish to see it published] instead of said information. Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
But that would start a new round of drama and witch hunting on the player, further damaging his reputation... Maybe they acknowledge their fault and want to move on instead of giving people another reason to keep talking about this topic for another week...
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
This was the key thing:
A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins.
They analyzed chat logs and gameplay to make their conclusion. I'm assuming they also analyzed the times when major queued. There's nothing to hide about this analysis.
As for the investigation being public making it easier for future cheaters to avoid detection, you have to weigh the value of that against other things: that all of this is being handled incorrectly (which we have a chance to know only if we can scrutinize it ourselves) and the ability for a player to avoid doing the things which would result in him being a false positive. Even if you forget for a second that Blizzard is fallible, the fact remains that these ladder qualifiers occur in an environment where a lot of people have different goals than the players who are trying to qualify. Regular ladder behavior that is typically innocuous, or at worse only a mild disturbance, can actually result in a player getting banned from competition if it occurs during one of these qualifiers. Blizzard should want to educate players on the things they need to avoid.
In fact this is the exact same with account sharing. Blizzard is absolutely okay with account sharing in some cases. Proleague teams share accounts (even when it causes problems with hotkey profiles etc). Tournament broadcasters share accounts. The rules and ToS don't specify these exceptions, but they do exist. Blizzard is simply incapable of publishing an accurate set of rules. Instead they write extensive rules to cover their asses and enforce them when they want to. That's fine and understandable but they should also be putting an effort into educating people on how they actually have to act. They can't just ban people whenever they break a rule that Blizzard themselves set a precedent for not enforcing before. Yes it's a different situation -- not saying Blizzard is being inconsistent -- but the rules and their applications are vague so they must educate people.
Blizzard hasn't used this opportunity to minimize the chance of future problems occurring.
On April 15 2016 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Isn't account sharing how Korean teamhouses practice?
Ladder qualification isn't a concern for them though
It's not but they explicitly said account sharing is not allowed. This means they should all be banned and stripped of WCS points. SSL, GSL, and Proleague should be forced to close as well.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Come on, we're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about win-trading. Blizzard's investigation, assuming it has been made in legal ways, includes most likely two things : analysis of SC2-related data (chat-logs), and analysis of replays themselves. Thus, any potential wintrader now knows that he shouldn't communicate with his fellow wintrader through chat logs and that him leaving the game shouldn't look too suspicious. What additional information could the investigation give?
For your second point, just ask for the player's consent. If he doesn't want the information to be published, then you put a nice [The concerned player deemed this information as confidential and did not wish to see it published] instead of said information. Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
I think you're underestimating how much telemetry Blizzard has.
Also no way Blizzard legal agrees to revealing user information and metadata to the public even with permission. There are way too many repercussions that extend far beyond WCS.
On April 15 2016 05:39 geokilla wrote: Rofl sounds like something Blizzard made up. The best part is that they claim there is a WCS 2016 Rulebook. Since when did this exist?
So if account sharing is against the terms of service and agreement, I guess all the pro SC2 players are fucked then. There's lots of account sharing going on in all regions. Might as well not hold WCS at all and just ban everyone but the casuals.
... it does exist. And was published before these alleged offenses.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Come on, we're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about win-trading. Blizzard's investigation, assuming it has been made in legal ways, includes most likely two things : analysis of SC2-related data (chat-logs), and analysis of replays themselves. Thus, any potential wintrader now knows that he shouldn't communicate with his fellow wintrader through chat logs and that him leaving the game shouldn't look too suspicious. What additional information could the investigation give?
For your second point, just ask for the player's consent. If he doesn't want the information to be published, then you put a nice [The concerned player deemed this information as confidential and did not wish to see it published] instead of said information. Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
But that would start a new round of drama and witch hunting on the player, further damaging his reputation... Maybe they acknowledge their fault and want to move on instead of giving people another reason to keep talking about this topic for another week...
I'm really not sure anyone (apart from our fellow Jealous, maybe) would start a witchhunt on MajOr for refusing to have his IP or MAC public... And yes, if the players want to acknowledge their fault, we just have to issue a statement saying that it's their fault and all is over. For now, we've had MajOr saying he was innocent, PtitDrogo saying that MajOr was innocent (thus hinting that MLorD was not, but that's extrapolation), and no statement whatsoever from MLorD/DnS.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Agree here. While legally they can do what they want, that's a case where, assuming they did their jobs well, there are no downside to publishing the proofs - with the players' consent if required.
Apart from the fact that knowing how the investigation was done makes it easier for future cheaters to avoid getting caught.
And also a lot of the information used in the investigation is probably something the players don't want floating around. To identify who used the account for example Blizzard most likely used information about the source IP, MAC address, and all the telemetry about the source machines. Blizzard probably also did analysis on player behaviour pattern, such as when they normally queue for ladder, when they queued that day etc.
Come on, we're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about win-trading. Blizzard's investigation, assuming it has been made in legal ways, includes most likely two things : analysis of SC2-related data (chat-logs), and analysis of replays themselves. Thus, any potential wintrader now knows that he shouldn't communicate with his fellow wintrader through chat logs and that him leaving the game shouldn't look too suspicious. What additional information could the investigation give?
For your second point, just ask for the player's consent. If he doesn't want the information to be published, then you put a nice [The concerned player deemed this information as confidential and did not wish to see it published] instead of said information. Nothing that prevents from publishing the proofs, really.
I think you're underestimating how much telemetry Blizzard has.
Also no way Blizzard legal agrees to revealing user information and metadata to the public even with permission. There are way too many repercussions that extend far beyond WCS.
As NonY said ; they may have fucktons of telemetry, but what is needed to show us that player X wintraded is not that important.
On April 15 2016 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Isn't account sharing how Korean teamhouses practice?
Ladder qualification isn't a concern for them though
It's not but they explicitly said account sharing is not allowed. This means they should all be banned and stripped of WCS points. SSL, GSL, and Proleague should be forced to close as well.
They did say it was okay as long as they don't win trade to manipulate the ranking
On April 15 2016 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Isn't account sharing how Korean teamhouses practice?
Ladder qualification isn't a concern for them though
It's not but they explicitly said account sharing is not allowed. This means they should all be banned and stripped of WCS points. SSL, GSL, and Proleague should be forced to close as well.
They did say it was okay as long as they don't win trade to manipulate the ranking
There are no reason to ban koreans from their leagues just because in those tournaments ladder points don't matter.
Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
EDIT: Also saying we shouldn't trust Blizzard when MajOr's shittary is well documented over years and years seems odd coming from someone saying players should be professionals.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
Unless he has other stuff in his chat logs that he doesn't want the public to see?
I'm not really buying your "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" argument.
WE don't have any clear evidence. Don't be smartasses with claims you know exactly what is happening. What Blizzard is sharing with us is simply not enough.
So yeah, everyone believes what they want to believe, be it guilty or innocent. But in the end only the players know truth.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
If my chat logs were innocent in terms of cheating I'd still not release them because that shit is foul and not for children's eyes... Get real, there's going to be private stuff, unflattering conversations and business stuff in there that's not for the public eye.
Also any asshole can "omit" to include certain pieces of a chat log. Source: US Secretary of State
On April 15 2016 04:53 Melliflue wrote: Three threads popped up about this, and for what it's worth I find this one to be by far the easiest to read. Thanks Yhamm.
and there goes marinelord career... What a gigantic waste of talent
I hope that is not the case. I think he deserves the punishment to not participate on DH. But other than that no hard feelings. His reputation is clean on my book and hopefully not sullied for Millenium, the fans or any sponsor. My big concern is his motivation.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
Read my earlier comment. MajOr don't need to have done anything at all. Perhaps he didn't do anything, a part from sharing the account that was used for win-trading, which, according to Blizzard, makes him just as guilty as whoever did the win-trading. I guess they're trying to make a point that if you share accounts, this could happen.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
I keep laughing when I read your posts, as if this was your first time dealing with Blizzard Entertainment and you're expecting something greater.
We are talking about Blizzard Entertainment here.
Blizzard Entertainment.
The technology just isn't there yet for them to be competent enough to show you they are competent. Heads have needed to roll for so long at that company that expecting competency at this point is just hilarious. We should be calling for nothing less than multiple people to be fired. The fact that the people Major "win traded" with aren't being punished and made public is damning. You can't win trade with no one.
An interesting bit of information in this is that Blizzard apparently has access to ladder replays. So everything goes through the server? I wonder how long they are stored, it must be a lot of data over 6 years.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
On April 15 2016 06:14 opisska wrote: An interesting bit of information in this is that Blizzard apparently has access to ladder replays. So everything goes through the server? I wonder how long they are stored, it must be a lot of data over 6 years.
I'm on the opposite side, I'm surprised that people assume that the only holders of the replays are players themselves, if they have replay saving option turned on. Balance/design team can't rely on streams and winrates alone, right?
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
And as for Major clearing himself by releasing replays - I think it would be nice, I personally have no opinion on whether he's guilty or not, but if he's faced with that demand and he will not comply it will automatically mean that he's hiding something.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
jesus and you went to law school? to end up still thinking things like this?
My major was sociology and criminal science, so partially yes. Also if his chat logs were innocent he'd have released them, especially when other pros say that's what they would do.
EDIT: Also saying we shouldn't trust Blizzard when MajOr's shittary is well documented over years and years seems odd coming from someone saying players should be professionals.
Saying players should be professionals doesn't mean they should be held to a higher standard than Blizzard. Blizzard needs to be professional too. There is nothing in their track record running tournaments so far that shows they have the competence to just say "trust me". And as a rule setter, they need to be held to a higher standard.
They have technical difficulties in Blizzcon every year. They fail to communicate rules in a timely manner. They have trouble telling players the venue of a competition with enough time for the players to get a visa. They fail to communicate important administrative details in a timely manner. They clearly let teamhouses and tournament organizers share accounts while having a blanket ban on it in their EULA. They constantly have overly broad rules that they selectively enforce, capriciously interpreting them as they go along. Their definition of "residency" makes less sense than the NFL's definition of "catch". But you people just blindly trust their judgment calls.
I'm kind of surprised at the number of people who think that Blizzard should publish all the data they looked through? If you don't trust the overall organizing body of the game then you should just quit. Major's story about quitting games to go take medicine...yeah seems legit guys. Oh yeah and the part where he admits to account sharing. These 3 are very lucky to not have been banned for the year or for life.
Ok, so Mlord and DNS are pretty stupids and really deceive me, Blizzard should have published more infos sooner and.... I guess that's all I have to say. The punishment is not thay hard because there are not very good players these days!
I wonder if this could have been somewhat prevented by making it so when you cancel a queue for ladder match or leave a game within the first minute it puts a timer on so you can't queue again for a few minutes.
On April 15 2016 06:22 Bigtony wrote: I'm kind of surprised at the number of people who think that Blizzard should publish all the data they looked through? If you don't trust the overall organizing body of the game then you should just quit. Major's story about quitting games to go take medicine...yeah seems legit guys. Oh yeah and the part where he admits to account sharing. These 3 are very lucky to not have been banned for the year or for life.
I agree. There have been witch-hunts made in this community for far less than being involved in something so unclear as leaving games in ladder competition.
Well I was pretty amused by the post earlier asking whether these three could know about WCS rules for current year when they did these things - I'd say it's wise follow rules of a decent human being and you won't be punished for anything like that. Would you do something morally wrong if it wasn't punished by law? I mean it happens everywhere, but dude... it's mind-boggling to me
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
You can't just ban everyone. If MajOr just leaved against random guys without they know about it, which is their fault? You have to prove a systematic behavior and DnS trying to cover it giving MajOr a def win is a good sign of it
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
They're not "only suspected", because that would mean (or should mean, at least) that they'd be under investigation. Either they've been suspected of wintrading but internal investigation found them innocent (in which case there is no reason to issue them a warning), or they've been convicted of wintrading but aren't punished.
On April 15 2016 06:14 opisska wrote: An interesting bit of information in this is that Blizzard apparently has access to ladder replays. So everything goes through the server? I wonder how long they are stored, it must be a lot of data over 6 years.
It makes sense that Blizzard has replays. I don't see how else they could figure out who's responsible in the case of de-sync bugs or hacks.
Since replays are so small Blizzard probably has the leisure of storing as many of them as they want. The amount of multiplayer replays generated in a day probably amounts to less than 20 GB which would amount to something like 44 TB over the lifetime of Starcraft which is an easily manageable amount. So they could easily have every replay of every Starcraft game ever played if they wanted to, though they probably don't.
and there goes marinelord career... What a gigantic waste of talent
Talent means nothing if you don't have passion. Lots of people have talent for lots of things but they don't utilize it to their full potential because they don't try hard or don't have the passion for it.
On April 15 2016 06:14 opisska wrote: An interesting bit of information in this is that Blizzard apparently has access to ladder replays. So everything goes through the server? I wonder how long they are stored, it must be a lot of data over 6 years.
I'm on the opposite side, I'm surprised that people assume that the only holders of the replays are players themselves, if they have replay saving option turned on. Balance/design team can't rely on streams and winrates alone, right?
I think my surprise is influenced by BW where the players were the only ones who ever physically held the data needed to construct a replay. But still, it's just a hell lot of data, if all games played on ladder are spied on
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
They have the right to ban them purely on the ToS for account sharing, legally that is all they need. You saying anything about suing is destroyed purely on that one line. All the other proof is just frosting on top.
Also they have the game logs and the fact MajOr wouldn't share his publicly says all we need to know.
The italics part is necessarily true, you could protest against a Terms of Service in court and win. The ToS would be held unenforceable in that case. Otherwise companies could put anything in there.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
You can't just ban everyone. If MajOr just leaved against random guys without they know about it, which is their fault? You have to prove a systematic behavior and DnS trying to cover it giving MajOr a def win is a good sign of it
They said the chat in the games he left proved he was awarding free-wins.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
I don't see where trust comes in. Firstly it's their tournament financed by them so they don't really need to justy their decisions, they didn't even need to reveal as much as they have done. Secondly why would you not trust them? The only reason not to would be because they had some hidden agent to get Major which seems unlikely, to put it mildly.
They can of course be wrong but how would giving all the details change that?
Not that I'm against them releasing everything, can't say I care, but I find it odd that you think they would lie about it.
At least they are still allowed to continue their careers. It's not a major incident, but in the light of how Korean pros are treated by Kespa for matchfixing this sounds fair.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
They're not "only suspected", because that would mean (or should mean, at least) that they'd be under investigation. Either they've been suspected of wintrading but internal investigation found them innocent (in which case there is no reason to issue them a warning), or they've been convicted of wintrading but aren't punished.
Or, you know, the evidence is too inconclusive to do more than issue a warning.
This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Well, MarineLorD admitted his guilt (which by extension means DnS is also not innocent). Only MajOr's case is dubious now.
Sounds like what has happened is fair, Major protested his innocence saying he was ill and was leaving games early because of that. However Blizzard contradict this by saying the in game chat backed Blizzard up in win trading. So im happy with all 3, just don't get why Bly hasn't been investigated as much, oh well
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Props to Blizzard for setting the record straight here and for not discolosing the names of the other players that were under suspicion. I do think its kind of weird that only Major gets punished though since as others have said you cant win-trade alone. So if you punish someone you need hard proof which should mean you got at least another name besides Major.
The only explanation I can see is that Major said something really really stupid in chat that "proves" that he was giving wins on purpose. This however does not prove beyond a doubt that the other player actually paid for it though, or asked for it. Maybe Major was just kidding or whatever but Blizzard should move on it, if nothing else to prove a point. Suspicious acitivity on a an account and expressing something like losing on purpose during this kind of ladder contest, Blizzard has done everything right here if my assumption is correct.
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
On April 15 2016 06:50 Shuffleblade wrote: Props to Blizzard for setting the record straight here and for not discolosing the names of the other players that were under suspicion. I do think its kind of weird that only Major gets punished though since as others have said you cant win-trade alone. So if you punish someone you need hard proof which should mean you got at least another name besides Major.
The only explanation I can see is that Major said something really really stupid in chat that "proves" that he was giving wins on purpose. This however does not prove beyond a doubt that the other player actually paid for it though, or asked for it. Maybe Major was just kidding or whatever but Blizzard should move on it, if nothing else to prove a point. Suspicious acitivity on a an account and expressing something like losing on purpose during this kind of ladder contest, Blizzard has done everything right here if my assumption is correct.
DnS played three ladder matches with a Terran, barcode-named player. DnS won two out of the three matches. Upon examining these matches and accounts in question, it was found that two players in the top 25 rankings had access to the barcoded Terran account: MajOr and MarineLorD.
I think they are punishing Major for this too, not just the suspicious ladder behavior. It probably just adds up for them.
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man.
On April 15 2016 06:14 opisska wrote: An interesting bit of information in this is that Blizzard apparently has access to ladder replays. So everything goes through the server? I wonder how long they are stored, it must be a lot of data over 6 years.
I'm on the opposite side, I'm surprised that people assume that the only holders of the replays are players themselves, if they have replay saving option turned on. Balance/design team can't rely on streams and winrates alone, right?
I think my surprise is influenced by BW where the players were the only ones who ever physically held the data needed to construct a replay. But still, it's just a hell lot of data, if all games played on ladder are spied on
Yeah, on a side note, all the replays that Blizzard has collected throughout all these years is a true museum of the game (I assume that all the custom games are stored as well, so every professional game is there too), also a museum of salt and bm
Maybe Major disconnected so quickly because he was sick..
wait he's used that before
innocent or not can we stop caring what the tier 3 terran was doing? guy was flaky at best. blizzard's game, blizzard's rules. If the pro's want a voice (even vs kespa) then get a union. that's why they exist.
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man.
P.S.: no word about Bly. I nearly forgot.
Why is it "right" for them to share information with you? You are not the judge on this case, what you think is frankly irrelevant. They conducted a investegation, found the evidence sufficient to punish the players in question and did so. Why do you think you have right to any information besides that?
They were'nt "shoot first and asking questions later". They conducted a investegation, came to a conclusion and acted on that conclusion.
You are not "telling it to their face", you are on a internet forum demanding information to a investegation you are not a part of.
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
I'm all for that. The sooner they're all banned, the sooner we can end the region lock and make SC2 great again
On April 15 2016 06:46 ddayzy wrote: Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
You don't apply a percentage score to justice as if it was a test.
Major being wrongly charged is wrong. It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
Didn't they already say why they punished Major but no one else?
A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins. Though suspicious queuing behavior occurred, we cannot prove that any of the players that received free wins directly requested them from MajOr, so we have decided not to list the suspect matches publicly.
Also: Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question.
I don't see why this is unclear or needs further explaining at all?
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
On April 15 2016 06:19 Elentos wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:15 boxerfred wrote:
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
I'm all for that. The sooner they're all banned, the sooner we can end the region lock and make SC2 great again
And make all non-Korean players apply for Korean citizenship so they won't be allowed in WCS, just to pull the trolling further
On April 15 2016 06:51 BronzeKnee wrote: So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
Well, what are you supposed to do? If your opponent intends to give you a win and you don't want that, it's not like you can reject the ladder points when he leaves the game. So either you get punished along with the other guy, even though you wanted to play a fair game, or neither of you get punished even though one was clearly doing something that's not acceptable.
If you can prove that one wanted to give the wins away but can't prove the recipients wanted the free points, what do you do? Only punish the one where you can prove the guilt because you don't want to unfairly punish someone who couldn't "defend themselves" in this situation; or punish everyone involved but risk wronging the vast majority of of suspects?
On April 15 2016 06:57 BronzeKnee wrote: It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
All under the assumption that they have irrefutable evidence against MajOr, of course.
On April 15 2016 06:51 BronzeKnee wrote: So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
Well, what are you supposed to do? If your opponent intends to give you a win and you don't want that, it's not like you can reject the ladder points when he leaves the game. So either you get punished along with the other guy, even though you wanted to play a fair game, or neither of you get punished even though one was clearly doing something that's not acceptable.
If you can prove that one wanted to give the wins away but can't prove the recipients wanted the free points, what do you do? Only punish the one where you can prove the guilt because you don't want to unfairly punish someone who couldn't "defend themselves" in this situation; or punish everyone involved but risk wronging the vast majority of of suspects?
On April 15 2016 06:57 BronzeKnee wrote: It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
All under the assumption that they have irrefutable evidence against MajOr, of course.
If people are leaving games vs you and talking about Win Trading, then contact someone from Blizzard saying you were in no way part of it, mention it on BattleNet to the player, etc. It seems Blizzard can see it all and make judgement calls based on that.
Pro players doing this garbage? Silly, they are good enough regularly to get into the WCS Circuit ....why risk your career to mess about? Marinelord....come on buddy...really?
So, if I get this correctly, Major connected to EU and was playing April Santa and giving free wins to anyone contending for top16? Did he really thought this will go unpunished? I mean, sure, Blizzard isn't the fastest out there, but he should have been expecting ban by the end of the year with the next ban wave
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
If you read the press release, Major was forfeiting games but they couldn't prove that it was pre-arranged. If you look at the other thread, Major was leaving games on NA ladder but not EU (where he's competing for WCS). It seems like Major was just 'being nice' to people he liked and gifting them wins. Nothing had to be arranged because losing points didn't cost him anything since he wasn't competing on NA.
The only instance of pre-arranged win-trading Blizz could prove was on the EU barcode account him and Marinelord share, and they did out his opponent in that case (btw, in the other thread Major claims he hasn't used that barcode account during the ladder competition, but somehow worried it got him banned lol).
^ "the EU barcode account him and Marinelord share"= not a barcode its (was) major's account mencemeat
"in the other thread Major claims he hasn't used that barcode account during the ladder competition" = thats MLords barcode he hasn't played in months(?).
You are talking about 2 different accounts. Also i don't know what u talkin about in the first paragraph but w/e.
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
On April 15 2016 06:19 Elentos wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:15 boxerfred wrote:
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
I'm all for that. The sooner they're all banned, the sooner we can end the region lock and make SC2 great again
And make all non-Korean players apply for Korean citizenship so they won't be allowed in WCS, just to pull the trolling further
We will build a wall around all non Korean states! And make the Foreign Scrubs pay for it!
This is so stupid. Just hold your qualifiers at real events (online or otherwise) and don't micromanage this shit. Alternately, keep disqualifying literally anyone who has an audience and just wait to see how these WCS changes to promote development in new regions works out for you.
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
On April 15 2016 06:19 Elentos wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:15 boxerfred wrote:
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
I'm all for that. The sooner they're all banned, the sooner we can end the region lock and make SC2 great again
And make all non-Korean players apply for Korean citizenship so they won't be allowed in WCS, just to pull the trolling further
We will build a wall around all non Korean states! And make the Foreign Scrubs pay for it!
I'm pretty sure North Korea has already paid for it...
I think it would be far worse than what they did now, since community would pull the card of real life as people can leave games for so many reasons aside of win trading. It's a very difficult decision after all.
On April 15 2016 06:19 Elentos wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:15 boxerfred wrote:
Several unnamed players will be warned for their activity on ladder
It is always good to put 3 players out in the public and keeping everyone else protected. Blizzard's management of this incident is pretty bad. Once more, fuck that company.
How dare they conceal the names of the individuals that are only suspected of win trading with no definitive evidence.
Everyone involved with Major should be named and banned. You can't win trade with no one. Either he was win trading and it damns everyone, or he wasn't and it damns no one.
In other news, all players disqualified from WCS events before June 30.
Haha... I don't think Major should be suspended unless there is clear evidence he was win trading, and then the others involved should be too.
I was just stating that Blizzard needs to go after both the bank robber and the guy who drove the get-away car. Not just the guy who drove the get-away car.
The person that benefitted from Major's supposed actions is going unpunished and that is wrong if there is evidence of wrongdoing.
So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
I'm all for that. The sooner they're all banned, the sooner we can end the region lock and make SC2 great again
And make all non-Korean players apply for Korean citizenship so they won't be allowed in WCS, just to pull the trolling further
We will build a wall around all non Korean states! And make the Foreign Scrubs pay for it!
I'm pretty sure North Korea has already paid for it...
But there's still so many we need to wall off. France, Poland, Germany, Norway....etc
On April 15 2016 08:22 kugHop wrote: I must say I like the way Blizzard took care of this by only banning them for a certain period and not permanently like Kespa often does
yep, definitely better, they realize that these players are young and have a whole future ahead of them
On April 15 2016 07:50 Nayolbi wrote: ^ "the EU barcode account him and Marinelord share"= not a barcode its (was) major's account mencemeat
"in the other thread Major claims he hasn't used that barcode account during the ladder competition" = thats MLords barcode he hasn't played in months(?).
You are talking about 2 different accounts. Also i don't know what u talkin about in the first paragraph but w/e.
I'm not talking about 2 different accounts. Major did, but letting Marinelord play on mencemeat is not what's at issue here.
Major claimed he only played the barcode account 'outside the ladder competition'. However, Blizzard says Major not only played on it during this last competition, but he threw games while playing on it.
No one but Major brings up Mencemeat, because it doesn't matter in terms of why they got banned.
As for the first paragraph I'm just explaining what this all looks like to me.
What we know / Blizzard claims: Major normally competes on the EU ladders. Was caught forfeiting games on NA. They can't confirm if he's win-trading or just throwing games.
What I'm speculating: Since he competes on EU, he doesn't care about loses on NA, so he either randomly left games he didn't feel like playing or to 'gift points' to friends of his. Either way he's throwing games without win-trading, which was an option Bronzeknee didn't think was possible (and why I responded in the first place).
While I don't mind some form of punishment, retroactive punishment seems way too harsh. ex post facto must be discussed since Blizzard themselves just issued one.
On April 15 2016 08:22 kugHop wrote: I must say I like the way Blizzard took care of this by only banning them for a certain period and not permanently like Kespa often does
yep, definitely better, they realize that these players are young and have a whole future ahead of them
Yeah, Major is like 38, that argument doesn't really fly anymore.
On April 15 2016 06:56 Hier wrote: Wait how do they know Major and MarineLord had both had access to the account in question?
That's very easy to establish. I don't think either player denied it either.
That's the thing, it's NOT easy to establish definitively.
It often is. If the person is using the account normally (and not trying to conceal the fact that they are using that account) it's trivial to establish. They can compare the IP, MAC address and all the data they have about the computer you use for your main account with the other account. If you argue that someone else was using your computer (which isn't a possibility in this case) they can look at the replays and try to see if it's you from the hotkey patterns, build orders etc.
Besides in this case MarineLord has said that they were sharing accounts.
On April 15 2016 08:31 wiileeyum wrote: While I don't mind some form of punishment, retroactive punishment seems way too harsh. ex post facto must be discussed since Blizzard themselves just issued one.
What do you mean by retroactive punishment? The rules were in place before they broke them. If you mean the fact that they removed the WCS points they'd won so far that doesn't have anything to do with ex post facto.
I dont find this harsh at all. Its not just about those 3 players and enforcing the rules. Its about sending a message to those players who couldnt (yet) be caught and prevention of abusive behaviour. Blizzard suspected there would be more players involved in win trading and by increasing the punishment when caught this could have a deterrent effect on those players. It could also make win trading or other forms of cheating less appealing to players who think about abusing the system but havent actually done anything yet.
What more proof do you actually need? Even if the verdict is a bad one you can't blame the jury. Suppose everything MajOr said was true and nothing was omitted by Marinelord:
1) MajOr and Marinelord account shared. 2) The account MajOr and Marinelord account shared was used by one or both of them (Marinelord confesses to this) to matchfix to qualify DnS. 3) MajOr left games vs Lambo / Zanster / Botvinik prematurely during a ladder qualifier, because he was sick and taking medication at the time.
Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
On April 15 2016 08:34 trada wrote: I dont find this harsh at all. Its not just about those 3 players and enforcing the rules. Its about sending a message to those players who couldnt (yet) be caught and prevention of abusive behaviour. Blizzard suspected there would be more players involved in win trading and by increasing the punishment when caught this could have a deterrent effect on those players. It could also make win trading or other forms of cheating less appealing to players who think about abusing the system but havent actually done anything yet.
Exactly, now when they're going to try to do something of that sort this case is going to be a confirmation and reassurance for swift action towards them.
On April 15 2016 06:46 ddayzy wrote: Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
You don't apply a percentage score to justice as if it was a test.
Major being wrongly charged is wrong. It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
Didn't they already say why they punished Major but no one else?
A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins. Though suspicious queuing behavior occurred, we cannot prove that any of the players that received free wins directly requested them from MajOr, so we have decided not to list the suspect matches publicly.
Also: Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question.
I don't see why this is unclear or needs further explaining at all?
It seems you can type this same post a million times in this thread and people will still not read or understand it.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
He doesn't deserve the punishment because he broke the rules, he actually doesn't deserve the punishment at all. Yet the punishment is just, if you share account with a win-trader you are implicated in the crimes associated with said shared account. That is why he is punished, because the account he shared win-traded and not because he shared account.
Just like the person you replied to said, Major should blame Marinelord. This is also why Marinelords tweet says Major is innocent and takes all the blame, because he feels bad for pulling Major down with him.
Now stop arguing about nit-picky things like accountsharing that actually doesn't really have anything to do with this. Share your bank account with whoever you want but once said bankaccount can be directly linked to illegal activity you are fucked. Totally fair actually.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
On principle, it seems MajOr's connection to the shared accounts is enough reason to punish him.
However, regarding the issue of losing ladder games with malicious intent -- that's still his word against Blizzard's at this point. It may not matter for the sake of punishment (he's getting punished for account-sharing already), but it's still a relevant point regarding MajOr's character and Blizzard's competence.
On April 15 2016 08:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote: What do you mean by retroactive punishment? The rules were in place before they broke them. If you mean the fact that they removed the WCS points they'd won so far that doesn't have anything to do with ex post facto.
It was definitely my mistake for not being clear and misunderstanding the "retroactively disqualified from the French National qualifier of DreamHack ZOWIE Open: Tours". I meant it to be more of a general discussion and observation rather than specifying on this case.
The removal of WCS points and the participation in other tournaments are both, alongside other punishments, in the rule book and may be issed under Blizzard's discretion. What I meant was how far back would Blizzard go to retroactively punish other players should any evidence of player conducts would appear or is being addressed. Because under Player Conduct you can speculate several other players that fall under that category and can potentially have their behavior from a year ago compounded onto recent evidences. With retroactive punishment, to me, it seems that other players are at risk of being penalized.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
If EVERYONE is involved yes. If the pro community can't follow the Terms of Contract, it doesn't deserve to be a pro community. But I'm sure this is not the case.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
If EVERYONE is involved yes. If the pro community can't follow the Terms of Contract, it doesn't deserve to be a pro community. But I'm sure this is not the case.
Even though it's technically against the ToU Blizzard doesn't care about account sharing except when it pertains to more severe offences such as this.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Do you have evidence of this claim? Can you show us?
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
If EVERYONE is involved yes. If the pro community can't follow the Terms of Contract, it doesn't deserve to be a pro community. But I'm sure this is not the case.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
If EVERYONE is involved yes. If the pro community can't follow the Terms of Contract, it doesn't deserve to be a pro community. But I'm sure this is not the case.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Ok, you know french scene more than I do, so : what Blizzard-ruled competition Shadown could be banned from? and what WCS points you'd want taken away from him?
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Shadown also shares that specific barcode account that was investigated? Or a different account, which wouldn't be a problem, no?
On April 15 2016 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: How do we know major just didn't leave the games instantly because he didn't want to play vs that specific opponent?
That seems like a nice idea at first, but I'm not so sure about the rules. We know "awarding wins" is against the tournaments rules, but those rules only apply to competitors of the tournaments. I guess if you consider every person with a ladder placement a "competitor" of the ladder qualifiers then you can apply the rule on them, otherwise not.
On April 15 2016 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: How do we know major just didn't leave the games instantly because he didn't want to play vs that specific opponent?
He would have said so. Also he left games against a bunch of different players.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
If EVERYONE is involved yes. If the pro community can't follow the Terms of Contract, it doesn't deserve to be a pro community. But I'm sure this is not the case.
you're wrong
Again that's not the point, what they say is :
We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run
so they tolerate it, but not during ladder run, I mean, it does make sense, don't you think?
And that's not the reason why Major was banned, he was banned for failing to follow the WCS rules regarding player etiquette during WCS competition...
Only thing that can be said is that not all pro did realize that this ladder competition was a serious WCS competition.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Shadown also shares that specific barcode account that was investigated? Or a different account, which wouldn't be a problem, no?
On April 15 2016 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: How do we know major just didn't leave the games instantly because he didn't want to play vs that specific opponent?
According to the OP due to suspicious chat logs.
he doesn't shared it. He did the most stupid thing which is give a win to bunny because he likes him, saying it in the chat. that's pretty much what major did, and since major claimed that he didn't used the barcode (and you can prove it easily) it's exactly the same thing.
Anyway, I want to say it sucks for ML, I was kind of hoping for a big warning, like "don't you dare do that again, little rascal" but I knew that it was very likely Blizzard would do what they did.
I genuinely think he's a good guy, he messed up at the wrong moment though. We all have our stupid moments, sometimes we get away with it, sometimes the shitstorm hits us hard.
If it's the end of his career, then it's a sad way to go.
On April 15 2016 08:49 Caihead wrote: Best case scenario for MajOr: MajOr was associated with a matchfixer by account sharing an account that would be used in the matchfixing, he never intended to matchfix any matches nor was he on the barcode account at the time when it lost matches to DnS. Wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong company. If anything MajOr should be angry at Marinelord for matchfixing with an account that would implicate him.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
If EVERYONE is involved yes. If the pro community can't follow the Terms of Contract, it doesn't deserve to be a pro community. But I'm sure this is not the case.
...2 centuries too late to join the real inquisition, Fran decides to found the ESPORTS inquisition...
This top 16 system is really bad imho and this is the main reason. There are too many holes and nobody can prove anything. Many innocent players will get punished and many guilties will evade.
On April 15 2016 06:51 BronzeKnee wrote: So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
Well, what are you supposed to do? If your opponent intends to give you a win and you don't want that, it's not like you can reject the ladder points when he leaves the game. So either you get punished along with the other guy, even though you wanted to play a fair game, or neither of you get punished even though one was clearly doing something that's not acceptable.
If you can prove that one wanted to give the wins away but can't prove the recipients wanted the free points, what do you do? Only punish the one where you can prove the guilt because you don't want to unfairly punish someone who couldn't "defend themselves" in this situation; or punish everyone involved but risk wronging the vast majority of of suspects?
On April 15 2016 06:57 BronzeKnee wrote: It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
All under the assumption that they have irrefutable evidence against MajOr, of course.
What do you do? You report Major.
Imagine if a bank employee is giving away free money, and I knowingly take money knowing the bank employee has no right to give away. Did I do anything wrong?
Guess what, I did! And I can be arrested for it. So those guys could have immediately let Blizzard know and Blizzard could have taken away the ladders points Major gave them, ect.
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
I imagine that a more legitimate sport would investigate more if someone was giving away free wins and other players knowingly accepted them without reporting that player. Especially if they used those wins to advance their position in the standings. Because it isn't just about the person giving the free stuff away. The people who accept the free stuff have responsibilities too. Forget the law, if you see a crime you have a moral obligation to report it. Otherwise, you're just part of the problem.
The moral decay of society has just about consumed everything huh... what do you do...
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein
I guess the damage done is basically marinelord, DNS, and major may not play sc2 anymore. Maybe a dozen or so other players will never return after this. I'm not a big fan over ambiguity about Bly, or other gamers, blaming major and not doing showing the games publicly.
Yes. Unfortunately even if he's "morally" innocent, he deserves the punishment cause he still broke the rules.
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Shadown also shares that specific barcode account that was investigated? Or a different account, which wouldn't be a problem, no?
On April 15 2016 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: How do we know major just didn't leave the games instantly because he didn't want to play vs that specific opponent?
According to the OP due to suspicious chat logs.
he doesn't shared it. He did the most stupid thing which is give a win to bunny because he likes him, saying it in the chat. that's pretty much what major did, and since major claimed that he didn't used the barcode (and you can prove it easily) it's exactly the same thing.
Ya it is pretty easy to see if Major was using the account, Blizzard flat out said he had access and both Major and Marnroord admitted it. We only have Major's word that he didn't use it during competition, but Blizz is accusing him of using it during that time...
Plus you're ignoring all the games Major threw on NA on his face own account.
IS BANNING PLAYERS GOING TO MAKE SC2 MORE POPULAR??? ......I THINK I UNDERSTAND....BLIZZARD IS TRYING TO KILL SC2 SLOWLY, FIRST BAN FOREIGN PLAYERS WHICH IMO ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE THAN KOREANS, SECOND, SC2 SUCKS PLAYING IT IN LOW GRAPHICS, TOO MUCH LAG, ETC. DAVID KIM NEEDS TO GE THE FUC K OUT OF BLIZZARD, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LOVE MONEY MORE THAN YOUR OWN PRODUCT, BECAUSE WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS THAT'S WHERE YOU MIND WOULD BE. GG SC2 THE BEST GAME EVER
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Creating dumb systems and then punishing people for breaking rules so that they'll remember to obey your dumb system is not laudable, it's stupid. I had a hard enough time sticking around when Kespa started gunning down their best players for matchfixing right when the game was struggling to stay relevant... and they actually sort of had their shit together.
So I decide to maybe start watching some foreigner stuff because that's what the new WCS is supposed to be promoting and... this is what we get? A ladder that was designed for bragging rights becomes a primary tournament qualifying grounds without any changes to how it works at all? And just so people will take it seriously, we ban like 60% of the semi-interesting players in the entire region? I can hardly stand Major as a personality but at least he can play the fucking game!
I give up on this. There are so many other games out there now that are interesting to watch, SC2 has become 3 parts idiocy and shenanigans for every 1 part of semi-interesting thing that happens. Wake me up if SC3 or WC4 ever show up, until then I'll go watch Street Fighter V or something.
On April 15 2016 12:28 Advantageous wrote: I don't honestly believe majOr would do something like this... especially when blizzard wont release the evidence they have gathered...
Why do you not believe it?
He himself admitted to leaving during countdown timer.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
almost every pro share accounts, so every pro should be suspended.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Shadown also shares that specific barcode account that was investigated? Or a different account, which wouldn't be a problem, no?
On April 15 2016 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: How do we know major just didn't leave the games instantly because he didn't want to play vs that specific opponent?
According to the OP due to suspicious chat logs.
he doesn't shared it. He did the most stupid thing which is give a win to bunny because he likes him, saying it in the chat. that's pretty much what major did, and since major claimed that he didn't used the barcode (and you can prove it easily) it's exactly the same thing.
Ya it is pretty easy to see if Major was using the account, Blizzard flat out said he had access and both Major and Marnroord admitted it. We only have Major's word that he didn't use it during competition, but Blizz is accusing him of using it during that time...
Plus you're ignoring all the games Major threw on NA on his face own account.
Aaahhhhh.... Where does it say MajOr used the barcode account to win trade during WCS competition?
Really good move by Blizzard...well written post also. Why is Nony so mad about this? It only helps future competition. I hope all players involved in this take it now more seriously or at least try harder to punish the system .
Guys, we can bitch and moan about how bad the system is all we want, but at the end of the day, Blizzard has the last say. Do you think they really care about the opinions of some keyboard warriors on TL? Now if all 16 players qualified players had a strike on the day of the matches, then they might care, but currently, what they say is final. Did these 3 players cheat or win trade? Very likely. Remember, Blizzard has access to way more information than we do. They can see tons of data within their own game. We might think they are incompetent, but we often forget that Blizzard is a behemoth-sized company. They don't owe us any explanation, even though they did give us one. We can moan about it all we want, but after a few weeks, nobody will remember.
Is the system bad? Probably. But like most Blizzard's bad ideas, it takes a long time to fix (lol Diablo 3). We may not like that these players are DQ'ed and banned. But maybe they shouldn't have tried to exploit a shitty system and expect nothing to happen. Just because the system is bad, doesn't mean you should win-trade. They are only salty because Blizzard finally caught them.
On April 15 2016 06:51 BronzeKnee wrote: So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
Well, what are you supposed to do? If your opponent intends to give you a win and you don't want that, it's not like you can reject the ladder points when he leaves the game. So either you get punished along with the other guy, even though you wanted to play a fair game, or neither of you get punished even though one was clearly doing something that's not acceptable.
If you can prove that one wanted to give the wins away but can't prove the recipients wanted the free points, what do you do? Only punish the one where you can prove the guilt because you don't want to unfairly punish someone who couldn't "defend themselves" in this situation; or punish everyone involved but risk wronging the vast majority of of suspects?
On April 15 2016 06:57 BronzeKnee wrote: It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
All under the assumption that they have irrefutable evidence against MajOr, of course.
What do you do? You report Major.
Imagine if a bank employee is giving away free money, and I knowingly take money knowing the bank employee has no right to give away. Did I do anything wrong?
Guess what, I did! And I can be arrested for it. So those guys could have immediately let Blizzard know and Blizzard could have taken away the ladders points Major gave them, ect.
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
I imagine that a more legitimate sport would investigate more if someone was giving away free wins and other players knowingly accepted them without reporting that player. Especially if they used those wins to advance their position in the standings. Because it isn't just about the person giving the free stuff away. The people who accept the free stuff have responsibilities too. Forget the law, if you see a crime you have a moral obligation to report it. Otherwise, you're just part of the problem.
The moral decay of society has just about consumed everything huh... what do you do...
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein
We don't know how many games major threw nor who against and how many were against the same people. If it was only one or two, most guys wouldnt think he was doing anything weird.
This thread devolved quickly. Sony's argument at the beginning wasn't a good one. Blizz isn't releasing the evidence because they don't want to unleash the mob on the opposing players in the suspect games. As they said they have evidence that Major gave the wins for free, but none that the opponents asked for them. Either way Major has used up any good will I might have had for him a long time ago. He has consistently been dishonest and shady in a number of instances in the past, and I'm fully inclined to believe Blizzard here. Not surprised that win trading has happened in a format like this, which is a shame because the concept is very cool.
On April 15 2016 06:46 ddayzy wrote: Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
You don't apply a percentage score to justice as if it was a test.
Major being wrongly charged is wrong. It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
Didn't they already say why they punished Major but no one else?...
I don't see why this is unclear or needs further explaining at all?
On April 15 2016 07:14 Elentos wrote:
On April 15 2016 06:51 BronzeKnee wrote: So again, either Major was win trading and then everyone involved needs to be punished, or Major wasn't and then no one gets punished. It can't be half and half. But we can't know if Blizzard doesn't release the evidence.
Well, what are you supposed to do? If your opponent intends to give you a win and you don't want that, it's not like you can reject the ladder points when he leaves the game. So either you get punished along with the other guy, even though you wanted to play a fair game, or neither of you get punished even though one was clearly doing something that's not acceptable.
If you can prove that one wanted to give the wins away but can't prove the recipients wanted the free points, what do you do? Only punish the one where you can prove the guilt because you don't want to unfairly punish someone who couldn't "defend themselves" in this situation; or punish everyone involved but risk wronging the vast majority of of suspects?
On April 15 2016 06:57 BronzeKnee wrote: It'd be better for all three to go free than for one of them to be wrongly punished.
All under the assumption that they have irrefutable evidence against MajOr, of course.
What do you do? You report Major.
Imagine if a bank employee is giving away free money, and I knowingly take money knowing the bank employee has no right to give away. Did I do anything wrong?
Guess what, I did! And I can be arrested for it. So those guys could have immediately let Blizzard know and Blizzard could have taken away the ladders points Major gave them, ect.
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
I imagine that a more legitimate sport would investigate more if someone was giving away free wins and other players knowingly accepted them without reporting that player. Especially if they used those wins to advance their position in the standings. Because it isn't just about the person giving the free stuff away. The people who accept the free stuff have responsibilities too. Forget the law, if you see a crime you have a moral obligation to report it. Otherwise, you're just part of the problem.
The moral decay of society has just about consumed everything huh... what do you do...
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein
We don't know how many games major threw nor who against and how many were against the same people. If it was only one or two, most guys wouldnt think he was doing anything weird.
So now we learned that giving away free wins during the ladder qualifiers is perfectly okay as long as you aren't good enough to compete in WCS tourneys.
Hopefully more people will do a Shadown till this system isn't used anymore.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
good post.
personally i would ve liked to see a harsher treatment for people who cheat in any kind of form. but the tl community was always pretty lenient towards cheaters in foreign scene, sadly.
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
On April 15 2016 08:34 trada wrote: I dont find this harsh at all. Its not just about those 3 players and enforcing the rules. Its about sending a message to those players who couldnt (yet) be caught and prevention of abusive behaviour. Blizzard suspected there would be more players involved in win trading and by increasing the punishment when caught this could have a deterrent effect on those players. It could also make win trading or other forms of cheating less appealing to players who think about abusing the system but havent actually done anything yet.
Pretty much this.
The rulebook was released before the Ladder challenge started and I doubt Blizzard would ban them if they werent a 100% sure
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Good, completely agree with Blizzard on this. "Pro" players think that they can get away with breaking the rules and then the community backs them up for some weird reason. Unfathomable.
Fair enough. If they catch them, suspend them. It's against the Terms.
so we delete wcs, gsl, pl and we move on to hots since everyone is doing it?
re-read what they say :
We identified a significant number of matches by MajOr in which he immediately forfeited the match. A number of other replays were examined, and along with the chat in those games, the records indicate MajOr was deliberately awarding wins
It's not just sharing accounts, don't act as if you don't see it.
Shadown did exactly what major did, giving win to someone without actual collusion with this person (bunny) and nothing happened. The inconsistency is almost as bad as the fact they're using the ladder to qualify for a qualifier.
No you misread, this.
Had Shadown been qualified for the EU qualifier, he would have been banned from the competition. Afaik, shadown is not a guy we might see in DH Tours, right? so no need to ban him.
Bunny on the other hand, is not punished, just has the people who Major gave wins to, because there is no evidence that they asked for it, just like Bunny apparently did not ask for a free win.
So it is totally consistent.
MajOr and Shadown did the same thing, everyone is sharing accounts but only Major gets ban. People get warning for similar incident as Major but aren't revealed. And that's consistent.
Not mentionning what Bly did in the 1st run.
Shadown also shares that specific barcode account that was investigated? Or a different account, which wouldn't be a problem, no?
On April 15 2016 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: How do we know major just didn't leave the games instantly because he didn't want to play vs that specific opponent?
According to the OP due to suspicious chat logs.
he doesn't shared it. He did the most stupid thing which is give a win to bunny because he likes him, saying it in the chat. that's pretty much what major did, and since major claimed that he didn't used the barcode (and you can prove it easily) it's exactly the same thing.
Ya it is pretty easy to see if Major was using the account, Blizzard flat out said he had access and both Major and Marnroord admitted it. We only have Major's word that he didn't use it during competition, but Blizz is accusing him of using it during that time...
Plus you're ignoring all the games Major threw on NA on his face own account.
Aaahhhhh.... Where does it say MajOr used the barcode account to win trade during WCS competition?
I can see how others can interpret this differently, but I think it's just horribly worded:
Upon examining these matches and accounts in question, it was found that two players in the top 25 rankings had access to the barcoded Terran account: MajOr and MarineLorD.
To me this means they weren't just seeing Major logging into the barcode account months ago or something unrelated, but actually pulled his IP / Mac / whatever identifying information on the account during the fishy games.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
Good to see Blizzard taking action to keep at least the top of the ladder clean during competition. IMO they should keep up the good work.
What comes to "showing evidence" I feel they definitely should not do that. It must contain a lot of player personal information that is not for other to see. If Major wants to redeem himself then he can of course release the replays etc. But tbh when I read the two statements from Major I facepalmed. It was like a small child trying to come up with a explanations why he is innocent.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It is a difficult decision for Blizzard. Whatever they decide will hurt the scene anyway. Actually it would even be easier for them in terms of PR to send some private warning to the players and manage that internally. For once, they did the bold move. Cannot really complain about that.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Matchfixing isn't like this at all. The closest thing I can think of off-hand in Korean SC2 is whe Byun let Coca win in some online tournament that happened to have a Code A spot attached to it. I think most people thought that their punishment was way too harsh (which it was).
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
From what I could tell, that attitude was mostly from South Koreans themselves. The foreigner response was much milder. In fact, some Koreans basically said that we didn't understand the damage it could do to the scene, which was untrue, but speaks of a harder line towards cheaters in general.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Oh god thank you. There is reason left on these boards after all.
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man.
P.S.: no word about Bly. I nearly forgot.
Why is it "right" for them to share information with you? You are not the judge on this case, what you think is frankly irrelevant. They conducted a investegation, found the evidence sufficient to punish the players in question and did so. Why do you think you have right to any information besides that?
They were'nt "shoot first and asking questions later". They conducted a investegation, came to a conclusion and acted on that conclusion.
You are not "telling it to their face", you are on a internet forum demanding information to a investegation you are not a part of.
They did shoot first and ask questions later. Major was not even contacted beforehand either for questions or even for being notified about the punishement. They were unlikely done with investigating too when they took actions otherwise there is no reason it would take them a week to write a full statement. They even stated that the investigation was "ongoing" and used a very strong and meaningful word "match-fixing". The way Blizzard handled the case regardless of whether you agree with their conclusion is so full of bullshit, I don't know how this is defendable. Sure Major's reputation is pretty well known but this is not enough to condamn him. I have no reason to believe Blizzard either with so many signs of screw up, especially when Major is the only convicted while others get out with nothing or just a warning. Until proven wrong by overwhelming evidence, I am not buying their side of the story because I believe in presumption of innocence. As if wintrading can happen alone, and if leaving game is unfair, then anyone leaving game is suspicious and should be investigated. Their ruling is vague and credibility on this case thin as hell.
I am on an Internet forum that is read by Blizzard employees as shown multiple times in the past. So yeah I am telling to their face, the only public way to be more direct would be to write an email to them.
And again how about you stop antagonizing people who ask for transparency? God forbids me for thinking something is wrong and asking for that. I disagree with you and Blizzard's way on this case, I'm entitled to my opinion and the ability to voice it, get off people's back trying to make them think otherwise.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved.
As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post :
On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved.
As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things.
Okay let's check the differences clearly : => Lost a game on purpose during a competition : check for both
=> Happened in the main event, on stage, in front of cameras vs happened on ladder (ladder qualifier yes, but ladder nonetheless)
=> Receiving money from criminals to do it (and possibly being involved with a wide criminal scene) vs doing it as a favor for a friend
=> Doing it in a premeditated, artful way vs doing it on the spot
=> Knowing that the sentences were really harsh, based on previous examples, vs having knowledge of the rules less than two days in advance (!!!), as the rules were released on the 7th of April while the matches occured on April 8th. Additionally, the rulebook states a list of sentences, without specifying which kind of sentence can be applied to which offense - which is pretty damn stupid, there is a reason Penal codes don't work like that.
=> Doing stuff involving an actual judiciary court (!) vs doing stuff that doesn't, which basically amounts to being a criminal vs not being one
=> Being subjected to an actual investigation by serious professionals regarded as widely competent vs being subjected to an internal investigation by some random videogame company that prides itself of being a tournament organizer as well
So yes, that's clearly the same thing, if you don't count all the differences, just like a dog and a cat are just the same thing if you don't count all the differences.
I'm not even going to comment on Major, Marinelord or DNS. I'm just going to leave that aside, though I notice that evidence is being concealed which to me does not make Blizzard's ruling more legitimate whatsoever. Again though, I'm going to put that aside as it's not what I want to discuss.
We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment. Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question. We take this stance to prevent pro-level players from ranking up accounts and then distributing them to third parties to manipulate the standings.
Blizzard Entertainment will continue to monitor all esports competitions, especially ones we sponsor or run directly. As a core part of the StarCraft II experience, we take behavior on the ladder very seriously. We reserve the right to escalate our responses to these issues in order to discourage future ladder manipulation. Ladder-integration into the World Championship Series this year has had many positive effects for viewers and players alike, but in order to keep the ladder as a method of qualification, we must remain vigilant against unfair manipulation.
In bold is what concerns me. First off, account sharing at the top end of the ladder is done regularly and it's done by Korean pro gamers in particular (who live in game houses anyway). Is Blizzard ever going to start screwing around with Korean pro gamers? I'm not sure, but Blizzard shows with these statements that they sure as hell feel entitled to do so.
Anyway, second point is that Blizzard is going to start believing that the ladder experience should be the most fucking amazing thing ever, etc. Does this mean that they're going to start banning accounts which rage-quit, cheese unsuccessfully, get cheesed, have technical or personal life issues (pizza, phone, etc.), and so on?
My account personally cost me a fucking €140, which is incredibly fucking expensive. I've paid more for Starcraft 2 than I've probably invested in other games entirely. Accounts are super expensive. Are they're going to get banned because people don't take the ladder as seriously as they do proleague? Whether it's shitty platinum players like me, or professional players, I do not think that sanctions should be carried out over something so stupidly trivial. Especially the "we're entitled to escalate our response", jesus Blizzard can you be any more arrogant?
I'm just not a fan of what Blizzard is doing and I'm finding this quite concerning.
People should not win-trade in ladder qualifiers for WCS. People should not share accounts when there are ladder qualifiers for WCS. Blizzard sent this message in a way that "foreign pros" would notice and understand. Good job.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
I was expecting and hoping for harsher punishment but this seems fair enough. I'd imagine there was probably a 4th and 5th involved as well that barely skated by. Wouldn't be surprised if some finger pointing by the involved results from this.
The problem here is that Blizzard themselves created a system that could easily be abused (through what is called perserve incentives in economics theory), in which a player can potentially be already qualified AND still competing OR can't even qualify AND still competing. If you want to keep it a ladder qualification, there are definitely ways to improve the system (though no one system will be perfect). The idea is to create a system where a) players that already qualified cannot compete (unless they REALLY hide) b) only players that can qualify can compete These two rules ensure that every player still involved should have something at stake personnally. This means no more "national qualifiers" before the ladder/mini-tour (how stupid was this idea anyway?) and no more prizepool for any of these qualifications (hint for blizzard: transfer this prizepool towards the prizepool of the actual tournament and divide it amongst players, this essentially means it's the same when it comes to money for ppl who qualified). This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?"). Now this alone should prevent many problems, but here is another idea to add to that. Say you want 16 players. Make this closed ladder last 8 days, and decide that the top2 players at the end of each day are through. Here, look, no more already qualified marinelord vs dns matches, no more smurfs, barcodes, shared accounts and all in all that system seems quite easy to put in place? besides the cherry picking of the players at first (which really only has to be done once, the next list can just be refreshed easily), all you need to do is 1°) make a closed ladder 2°) cut off 2 players each day. Hope this is interesting to someone...
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man.
P.S.: no word about Bly. I nearly forgot.
Why is it "right" for them to share information with you? You are not the judge on this case, what you think is frankly irrelevant. They conducted a investegation, found the evidence sufficient to punish the players in question and did so. Why do you think you have right to any information besides that?
They were'nt "shoot first and asking questions later". They conducted a investegation, came to a conclusion and acted on that conclusion.
You are not "telling it to their face", you are on a internet forum demanding information to a investegation you are not a part of.
They did shoot first and ask questions later. Major was not even contacted beforehand either for questions or even for being notified about the punishement. They were unlikely done with investigating too when they took actions otherwise there is no reason it would take them a week to write a full statement. They even stated that the investigation was "ongoing" and used a very strong and meaningful word "match-fixing". The way Blizzard handled the case regardless of whether you agree with their conclusion is so full of bullshit, I don't know how this is defendable. Sure Major's reputation is pretty well known but this is not enough to condamn him. I have no reason to believe Blizzard either with so many signs of screw up, especially when Major is the only convicted while others get out with nothing or just a warning. Until proven wrong by overwhelming evidence, I am not buying their side of the story because I believe in presumption of innocence. As if wintrading can happen alone, and if leaving game is unfair, then anyone leaving game is suspicious and should be investigated. Their ruling is vague and credibility on this case thin as hell.
I am on an Internet forum that is read by Blizzard employees as shown multiple times in the past. So yeah I am telling to their face, the only public way to be more direct would be to write an email to them.
And again how about you stop antagonizing people who ask for transparency? God forbids me for thinking something is wrong and asking for that. I disagree with you and Blizzard's way on this case, I'm entitled to my opinion and the ability to voice it, get off people's back trying to make them think otherwise.
They conducted an investigation, came to a conclusion and handed out a punishment. That is the order it was done in and it is the order it should be done in. Contacting Major, if you believe him when he says they didn't, is not needed if they have sufficient evidence and it is not needed to come to a conclusion. So why woul that be required of them?
You do realize it is entirely possible to conclude that one person is guilty while contuing the investigantion into toher players? They were not looking only into Major but into other players as well.
How is it not defensible? What did they do wrong?
Major is not the only one who got convicted, SnD and MrineLord was as well, and they both admited it. So we know Blizzard was right.
They don't have to prove anything to you. You are not the judge in this case, and I'm not sure why you think this should be a trial by public opinion? Why do you think Blizzard needs to answer to you befor taking actions? Are you somehow in charge of Blizzards decisions.
How is the credibility thin? Two of the three people convicted admited it and Major himself admited to leaving games and sharing a account involved in match fixing.
Please, you are offended by someone disagreeing with you? If you can't handle that, don't poste on a public forum.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote: Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate.
it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here
Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair).
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Well, If I was blizzard Id know that I could get into a poisonous debate with people who would blindly defend the players. I dont exactly trust Blizzard about this (Diablo 2 Bots still run well, and I personally Lost one character because in a trade I got a dupped item, so Im unsure they are perfect at this), but then again, there is no one out there that will have more information than blizzard itself... so... whos opinion are you going to take about this when you are the one with most info?
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
They will probably do that soon. The reason Blizzard wanted to start SC2 as a "e-sport" was because they saw Kespa making a profit on BW in korea. Unfortunately, blizzard didnt do its homework and tried to force SC2 into an "e-sport", and its been working less and less. They are now trying desperate attempts at keeping their grip on the SC2 scene and it is only backfiring so far.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
You do realise that without Blizzard support, SC2 dies as a competitive game?
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post :
On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved.
As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things.
Okay let's check the differences clearly : => Lost a game on purpose during a competition : check for both
=> Happened in the main event, on stage, in front of cameras vs happened on ladder (ladder qualifier yes, but ladder nonetheless)
=> Receiving money from criminals to do it (and possibly being involved with a wide criminal scene) vs doing it as a favor for a friend
=> Doing it in a premeditated, artful way vs doing it on the spot
=> Knowing that the sentences were really harsh, based on previous examples, vs having knowledge of the rules less than two days in advance (!!!), as the rules were released on the 7th of April while the matches occured on April 8th. Additionally, the rulebook states a list of sentences, without specifying which kind of sentence can be applied to which offense - which is pretty damn stupid, there is a reason Penal codes don't work like that.
=> Doing stuff involving an actual judiciary court (!) vs doing stuff that doesn't, which basically amounts to being a criminal vs not being one
=> Being subjected to an actual investigation by serious professionals regarded as widely competent vs being subjected to an internal investigation by some random videogame company that prides itself of being a tournament organizer as well
So yes, that's clearly the same thing, if you don't count all the differences, just like a dog and a cat are just the same thing if you don't count all the differences.
The deed itself is the same. Since you believe otherwise then I won't try to persuade you since I won't and you won't persuade me either. OUr views are different and that;s the it. So, nice reading, but no.
Also, is France so different that they haven't though about wintrading as a "nono, that's bad" thing? I am probably really somewhat different. And they say I am morally corrupted xD
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
You do realise that without Blizzard support, SC2 dies as a competitive game?
I definitely see some credit in that argument, but I'm not sure I agree with it.
Does the Korean scene really need Blizzard subsidies to continue hosting the GSL? Is Proleague, SSL, GSL and so on not profitable in themselves? Dreamhack and IEMs aren't making money? Think about Brood War and how much Blizzard helped Korean Brood War.
If the game can't sustain a competitive scene without developer life-support, then perhaps the developers should look into re-adjusting the game design itself in order to attract more players.
The people playing the game are the life-blood of any game. Most people who watch any game, whether it's LoL, Dota, Starcraft or CS:GO will not bother watching if they don't play it (or have at least played extensively in the past).
Perhaps the actually good approach is "game design first", then you have lots of players. When you have lots of players, you naturally have lots of viewers.
Pumping money into the competitive scene without first making a popular game is doing things the wrong way around. It's possible that Blizzard has designed Starcraft as an esport before they designed a fun game.
If that's the case, then you are right and Starcraft is going to experience some reduced activity in the future.
However, I believe that the game itself is fun enough to play. So you won't get LoL-like numbers of viewers, but you'll still get a solid community behind the game.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
Blizzard is great at making games and really mediocre at running competitive leagues... i'd like to see them leave. There will still be plenty of shit-storms without them. Its not like Blizzard leaving solves everything.
However, with ATVI making this new eSports division it appears their corporate overlords are moving in the opposite direction.
On April 15 2016 05:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: Wait so because their points are used for seeding but not invites does that mean they count toward Blizzcon? Is being at Blizzcon considered being seeded as a top 8 player or an invite based on being in the top 8 points?
Yeah this line was particularly confusing to me. Whats the difference between a seed and an invite, anyways?
The difference is if you dont get invited, you won't be seeded against an opponent.
For example (to make it easier I take last year's WCS system,) if you were in the top #16 in WCS Point ranking you got invited to Blizzcon.
If you were exactly #16 in the ranking, you get seeded against #1 in WCS points. then #2 gets seeded against #15 and #3 against #14. And so on. So eventually(!) having a good seed helps to get an 'easier' opponent.
Still doesn't change the fact that your invite points won't be enough for top 16 (or top 8 this year, I'm not familiar with this years system yet).
I think if Blizzard has proof, like they say, the punishment is correct and hurts just enough. You have to have some amount of criminal energy to do such shit and they should be punished for it to feel it hard. Plus they are kinda destroying the scene which they should be punished for as well.
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
Blizzard is great at making games and really mediocre at running competitive leagues... i'd like to see them leave. There will still be plenty of shit-storms without them. Its not like Blizzard leaving solves everything.
However, with ATVI making this new eSports division it appears their corporate overlords are moving in the opposite direction.
For years the community begged for blizzard to be involved and now people want them to leave for enforcing the rules and punishing cheaters? Are you for real?
The hypocrisy in Blizzard decision is beyond what I thought would be possible.
Yeah let's ban 3 players over win trading and sharing accounts, this will be a clear statement that as a progammer you don't mess with the rules. It's not like it has been done previously without any consequences. So previously rules were shady at best, and now it's a ban for not respecting it, plus disregarding your previous achievements as a player...makes no sense. Banning them for the current qualifier seems ok enough, but resetting their points and disqualifying them for Tours is far beyond acceptable.
But again, since Blizzard took Starcraft 2 under its wing after their deal with Kespa, it has been a downhill trip to hell regarding organisation of events. And don't get me started on the WCS region lock.
On April 15 2016 14:27 Lil_nooblet wrote: Not surprising that Major wasn't telling the truth. His excuse was terrible.
Fuck you. Don't make up trash to feel better about yourself. Nobody said he was lying or cheating. Blizzard retracted their statement about major giving wins on ladder. They were pissed that marinelord jumped on Major's eu account and traded wins. That is why he was punished.
so stupid from Blizzard - what a collapsing wcs system in 2016-.- just bad. so natch that they players do such stuff while makeing ladder to qualification modus for wcs - one shouldn't have done this shit-.-
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
Blizzard is great at making games and really mediocre at running competitive leagues... i'd like to see them leave. There will still be plenty of shit-storms without them. Its not like Blizzard leaving solves everything.
However, with ATVI making this new eSports division it appears their corporate overlords are moving in the opposite direction.
For years the community begged for blizzard to be involved and now people want them to leave for enforcing the rules and punishing cheaters? Are you for real?
i can not speak for the community ; i can only speak for myself.
James Naismith made a great game; he invented basketball. Does that mean he should be the commissioner of the NBA?
Is Don King the guy you go to when you want to change a rule in boxing?
making a game and running a competitive league are 2 very different things.
I've never wanted Blizzard involved deeply in the competitive scene. I wanted them to write a cheque... and have the balls to put that cheque in the hands of the right promoter and let that promoter do their thing.
ATVI created a separate eSports division because of how different game making and event promotion are.
its time for Blizzard to GTFO, write a cheque and let the new eSports division do their thing. it was time 5 years ago. and its still time now.
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time.
One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post :
On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote: How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved.
As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things.
Okay let's check the differences clearly : => Lost a game on purpose during a competition : check for both
=> Happened in the main event, on stage, in front of cameras vs happened on ladder (ladder qualifier yes, but ladder nonetheless)
=> Receiving money from criminals to do it (and possibly being involved with a wide criminal scene) vs doing it as a favor for a friend
=> Doing it in a premeditated, artful way vs doing it on the spot
=> Knowing that the sentences were really harsh, based on previous examples, vs having knowledge of the rules less than two days in advance (!!!), as the rules were released on the 7th of April while the matches occured on April 8th. Additionally, the rulebook states a list of sentences, without specifying which kind of sentence can be applied to which offense - which is pretty damn stupid, there is a reason Penal codes don't work like that.
=> Doing stuff involving an actual judiciary court (!) vs doing stuff that doesn't, which basically amounts to being a criminal vs not being one
=> Being subjected to an actual investigation by serious professionals regarded as widely competent vs being subjected to an internal investigation by some random videogame company that prides itself of being a tournament organizer as well
So yes, that's clearly the same thing, if you don't count all the differences, just like a dog and a cat are just the same thing if you don't count all the differences.
The deed itself is the same. Since you believe otherwise then I won't try to persuade you since I won't and you won't persuade me either. OUr views are different and that;s the it. So, nice reading, but no.
Also, is France so different that they haven't though about wintrading as a "nono, that's bad" thing? I am probably really somewhat different. And they say I am morally corrupted xD
The deed itself is the same, in the same way that a soldier killing a fellow soldier who's agonizing and can't get help is the same as a soldier killing a non-hostile civilian. And yes, I think wintrading being "bad" is pretty much a thing in France too. I'm not sure how that's relevant, since I never denied that wintrading was "good" or even "neutral" ; what I am saying is that (1) the punishment given is not proportional to the crime commited and (2) if you say this and the PRIME/saviOr scandals are the same thing, then pretty much everything that has one common point is the same thing too.
On April 16 2016 00:43 MalditoKyo wrote: The hypocrisy in Blizzard decision is beyond what I thought would be possible.
Yeah let's ban 3 players over win trading and sharing accounts, this will be a clear statement that as a progammer you don't mess with the rules. It's not like it has been done previously without any consequences. So previously rules were shady at best, and now it's a ban for not respecting it, plus disregarding your previous achievements as a player...makes no sense. Banning them for the current qualifier seems ok enough, but resetting their points and disqualifying them for Tours is far beyond acceptable.
But again, since Blizzard took Starcraft 2 under its wing after their deal with Kespa, it has been a downhill trip to hell regarding organisation of events. And don't get me started on the WCS region lock.
Dear lord people have a Blizzard hate boner on this forum. If Blizzard didn't take a more active interest in the tournaments most of them would be gone by now since Starcraft 2 isn't exactly draging in viewers by the millions.
Beyond acceptable? How on earth is it up to you to decide what is acceptable? Blizzard is paying for the tournament, they are setting the rules for the tournament and they decide the punishments for breaching those rules.
Also, why is it unacceptable? If this happened in a Kespa run tournament they would be banned for life.
What on earth does your achivements as a player have to do with punishment for match fixing?
On April 16 2016 01:54 SidianTheBard wrote: Players cheated. Players got caught. Players got punished.
Good riddance.
I Agree
There are too many elitist posting shit , just because a couple of their heroes have been caught cheating in this thread.Anyone who cheats and fucks over a fellow player or players deserves to be permanently banned. They are a disgusting set of people who should never be trusted again,good riddance to bad rubbish !!
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
Blizzard is great at making games and really mediocre at running competitive leagues... i'd like to see them leave. There will still be plenty of shit-storms without them. Its not like Blizzard leaving solves everything.
However, with ATVI making this new eSports division it appears their corporate overlords are moving in the opposite direction.
For years the community begged for blizzard to be involved and now people want them to leave for enforcing the rules and punishing cheaters? Are you for real?
i can not speak for the community ; i can only speak for myself.
James Naismith made a great game; he invented basketball. Does that mean he should be the commissioner of the NBA?
Is Don King the guy you go to when you want to change a rule in boxing?
making a game and running a competitive league are 2 very different things.
I've never wanted Blizzard involved deeply in the competitive scene. I wanted them to write a cheque... and have the balls to put that cheque in the hands of the right promoter and let that promoter do their thing.
ATVI created a separate eSports division because of how different game making and event promotion are.
its time for Blizzard to GTFO, write a cheque and let the new eSports division do their thing. it was time 5 years ago. and its still time now.
I think you'd need a Ouija board for Naismith to be commissioner of the NBA
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
Blizzard is great at making games and really mediocre at running competitive leagues... i'd like to see them leave. There will still be plenty of shit-storms without them. Its not like Blizzard leaving solves everything.
However, with ATVI making this new eSports division it appears their corporate overlords are moving in the opposite direction.
For years the community begged for blizzard to be involved and now people want them to leave for enforcing the rules and punishing cheaters? Are you for real?
i can not speak for the community ; i can only speak for myself.
James Naismith made a great game; he invented basketball. Does that mean he should be the commissioner of the NBA?
Is Don King the guy you go to when you want to change a rule in boxing?
making a game and running a competitive league are 2 very different things.
I've never wanted Blizzard involved deeply in the competitive scene. I wanted them to write a cheque... and have the balls to put that cheque in the hands of the right promoter and let that promoter do their thing.
ATVI created a separate eSports division because of how different game making and event promotion are.
its time for Blizzard to GTFO, write a cheque and let the new eSports division do their thing. it was time 5 years ago. and its still time now.
I think you'd need a Ouija board for Naismith to be commissioner of the NBA
maybe if Blizzard used a Ouija board to run the WCS it'd be in better shape seriously though, Blizzard is just out of their realm trying to run/micromanage a competitive league.
There was this weekly tournament with a similar situation in Korea. Coca was playing Byun in the finals of the KR weekly, which awards the winner a spot in code A (for some reason, the runner up doesn't get the spot if the 1st place already is in??). Anyway, they both got punished for it, but afaik, this punishment only extended to the weekly tournament (1.5mth ban or something) and the GSL spots were forfeited? see here
Now, I do think it's bad to deliberately forfeit games and try and rig the ladder so you/a friend can qualify. But I think Major's punishment is too severe, and even cutting him from Copa was not necessary. Warnings are good. They let people know exactly where the boundaries are, without being overkill. They are especially good for new leagues and systems, where there is not a clear established set of rules. I hope Blizzard learns as much from this as the players do...
I also agree with the above (and now below) solution of using an isolated, separate ladder. This prevents people who are not qualified (like, because they are from NA or KR and or already qualified!!!!) from influencing the results. The ONLY people who should have an influence on a qualifier are the people capable of qualifying. This isolated ladder for a qualifier solves many of the problems.
On April 15 2016 22:00 Toxi78 wrote: The problem here is that Blizzard themselves created a system that could easily be abused (through what is called perserve incentives in economics theory), in which a player can potentially be already qualified AND still competing OR can't even qualify AND still competing. If you want to keep it a ladder qualification, there are definitely ways to improve the system (though no one system will be perfect). The idea is to create a system where a) players that already qualified cannot compete (unless they REALLY hide) b) only players that can qualify can compete These two rules ensure that every player still involved should have something at stake personnally. This means no more "national qualifiers" before the ladder/mini-tour (how stupid was this idea anyway?) and no more prizepool for any of these qualifications (hint for blizzard: transfer this prizepool towards the prizepool of the actual tournament and divide it amongst players, this essentially means it's the same when it comes to money for ppl who qualified). This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?"). Now this alone should prevent many problems, but here is another idea to add to that. Say you want 16 players. Make this closed ladder last 8 days, and decide that the top2 players at the end of each day are through. Here, look, no more already qualified marinelord vs dns matches, no more smurfs, barcodes, shared accounts and all in all that system seems quite easy to put in place? besides the cherry picking of the players at first (which really only has to be done once, the next list can just be refreshed easily), all you need to do is 1°) make a closed ladder 2°) cut off 2 players each day. Hope this is interesting to someone...
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote: Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved?
Yup.
The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public....
Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote: Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
They will probably do that soon. The reason Blizzard wanted to start SC2 as a "e-sport" was because they saw Kespa making a profit on BW in korea. Unfortunately, blizzard didnt do its homework and tried to force SC2 into an "e-sport", and its been working less and less. They are now trying desperate attempts at keeping their grip on the SC2 scene and it is only backfiring so far.
I really agree with this. I'm kinda torn, one would think a game designed for esports would be the best one to become a sport.
I imagine Hearth, Heroes of the storm, and overwatch were all designed with esports in mind, but maybe the just got better at it with practice.
My theory is that the better teams moved on to those games, they don't seem to have the problems starcraft does.
On April 16 2016 01:54 SidianTheBard wrote: Players cheated. Players got caught. Players got punished.
Good riddance.
I Agree
There are too many elitist posting shit , just because a couple of their heroes have been caught cheating in this thread.Anyone who cheats and fucks over a fellow player or players deserves to be permanently banned. They are a disgusting set of people who should never be trusted again,good riddance to bad rubbish !!
You are like the people in a Heroes of the storm match that tell all the other players about how "bad" they are, but it's always the people that talk the most shit that play the worst in the match (they have most deaths, least kills, low damage, low heals).
As if you've never made a mistake in life.
I bet if the people got a small peek into your closet there would be some nice skeletons.
*Also, if I took the time, effort, and skill to win those ladders points that got me into the top 16 shouldn't I be able to hand away 30 points? I earned them.
Just a thought.
That might be a manipulation, might even squeeze some players out, but as others have pointed out, it seems like an extremely flawed system.
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
I do not believe the suggested idea necessarily has to go against that. I think any player should be able to enter the separate ladder qualifier, so long as they are eligible (just like every other qualifier ever?). This has the downside of not invigorating the ladder for that period, but it should make for a really exciting qualifier system.
However, it still seems like it would promote playing tons and tons of games, with quantity having more impact over quality (aka, # of games more important than winrate). I really don't know if there's a way to use a ladder-like system without it favoring playing a shit-ton of games.
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man.
P.S.: no word about Bly. I nearly forgot.
Why is it "right" for them to share information with you? You are not the judge on this case, what you think is frankly irrelevant. They conducted a investegation, found the evidence sufficient to punish the players in question and did so. Why do you think you have right to any information besides that?
They were'nt "shoot first and asking questions later". They conducted a investegation, came to a conclusion and acted on that conclusion.
You are not "telling it to their face", you are on a internet forum demanding information to a investegation you are not a part of.
They did shoot first and ask questions later. Major was not even contacted beforehand either for questions or even for being notified about the punishement. They were unlikely done with investigating too when they took actions otherwise there is no reason it would take them a week to write a full statement. They even stated that the investigation was "ongoing" and used a very strong and meaningful word "match-fixing". The way Blizzard handled the case regardless of whether you agree with their conclusion is so full of bullshit, I don't know how this is defendable. Sure Major's reputation is pretty well known but this is not enough to condamn him. I have no reason to believe Blizzard either with so many signs of screw up, especially when Major is the only convicted while others get out with nothing or just a warning. Until proven wrong by overwhelming evidence, I am not buying their side of the story because I believe in presumption of innocence. As if wintrading can happen alone, and if leaving game is unfair, then anyone leaving game is suspicious and should be investigated. Their ruling is vague and credibility on this case thin as hell.
I am on an Internet forum that is read by Blizzard employees as shown multiple times in the past. So yeah I am telling to their face, the only public way to be more direct would be to write an email to them.
And again how about you stop antagonizing people who ask for transparency? God forbids me for thinking something is wrong and asking for that. I disagree with you and Blizzard's way on this case, I'm entitled to my opinion and the ability to voice it, get off people's back trying to make them think otherwise.
They conducted an investigation, came to a conclusion and handed out a punishment. That is the order it was done in and it is the order it should be done in. Contacting Major, if you believe him when he says they didn't, is not needed if they have sufficient evidence and it is not needed to come to a conclusion. So why woul that be required of them?
You do realize it is entirely possible to conclude that one person is guilty while contuing the investigantion into toher players? They were not looking only into Major but into other players as well.
How is it not defensible? What did they do wrong?
Major is not the only one who got convicted, SnD and MrineLord was as well, and they both admited it. So we know Blizzard was right.
They don't have to prove anything to you. You are not the judge in this case, and I'm not sure why you think this should be a trial by public opinion? Why do you think Blizzard needs to answer to you befor taking actions? Are you somehow in charge of Blizzards decisions.
How is the credibility thin? Two of the three people convicted admited it and Major himself admited to leaving games and sharing a account involved in match fixing.
Please, you are offended by someone disagreeing with you? If you can't handle that, don't poste on a public forum.
Dude. I'm not offended. Feel free to disagree. Just do whatever you want except telling me what I should think and say. I say they're wrong. Deal with it.
On April 16 2016 06:01 Blargh wrote: However, it still seems like it would promote playing tons and tons of games, with quantity having more impact over quality (aka, # of games more important than winrate). I really don't know if there's a way to use a ladder-like system without it favoring playing a shit-ton of games.
There are also automatic tournaments available. Just don't make the process too focused on a single method or a single date (weekdays are always problematic).
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
I do not believe the suggested idea necessarily has to go against that. I think any player should be able to enter the separate ladder qualifier, so long as they are eligible (just like every other qualifier ever?). This has the downside of not invigorating the ladder for that period, but it should make for a really exciting qualifier system.
However, it still seems like it would promote playing tons and tons of games, with quantity having more impact over quality (aka, # of games more important than winrate). I really don't know if there's a way to use a ladder-like system without it favoring playing a shit-ton of games.
Perhaps, it would at least eliminate people form having multiple accounts in play.
Any old timers around to confirm this deja vu feeling I've been having that the WCS ladder competitions is patterned after the TSL 2 qualifierson ICCUP?
Funny how trying to call back to that just gets everyone pointing out how bad the system is. Then again TSL had a bunch of players thrown out for trying to game the ladder then too.
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
I do not believe the suggested idea necessarily has to go against that. I think any player should be able to enter the separate ladder qualifier, so long as they are eligible (just like every other qualifier ever?). This has the downside of not invigorating the ladder for that period, but it should make for a really exciting qualifier system.
However, it still seems like it would promote playing tons and tons of games, with quantity having more impact over quality (aka, # of games more important than winrate). I really don't know if there's a way to use a ladder-like system without it favoring playing a shit-ton of games.
Perhaps, it would at least eliminate people form having multiple accounts in play.
Any old timers around to confirm this deja vu feeling I've been having that the WCS ladder competitions is patterned after the TSL 2 qualifierson ICCUP?
Funny how trying to call back to that just gets everyone pointing out how bad the system is. Then again TSL had a bunch of players thrown out for trying to game the ladder then too.
Difference being we were transparent with the information. I don't recall anyone protesting like Major has done.
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
I do not believe the suggested idea necessarily has to go against that. I think any player should be able to enter the separate ladder qualifier, so long as they are eligible (just like every other qualifier ever?). This has the downside of not invigorating the ladder for that period, but it should make for a really exciting qualifier system.
However, it still seems like it would promote playing tons and tons of games, with quantity having more impact over quality (aka, # of games more important than winrate). I really don't know if there's a way to use a ladder-like system without it favoring playing a shit-ton of games.
Perhaps, it would at least eliminate people form having multiple accounts in play.
Any old timers around to confirm this deja vu feeling I've been having that the WCS ladder competitions is patterned after the TSL 2 qualifierson ICCUP?
Funny how trying to call back to that just gets everyone pointing out how bad the system is. Then again TSL had a bunch of players thrown out for trying to game the ladder then too.
Difference being we were transparent with the information. I don't recall anyone protesting like Major has done.
Since I got someone in the know, did you guys have lawyers involved then? Cuz they tend to have a weird influence on things.
Back to the memory lane, I do remember a lot of non-players were skeptical about the ability to track players via replay keystrokes / keybinds / ect. Scene was a lot more tight knit then too and I remember most people 'fessed up once they were caught. But I was only barely following starcraft then so what do I know?
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
I do not believe the suggested idea necessarily has to go against that. I think any player should be able to enter the separate ladder qualifier, so long as they are eligible (just like every other qualifier ever?). This has the downside of not invigorating the ladder for that period, but it should make for a really exciting qualifier system.
However, it still seems like it would promote playing tons and tons of games, with quantity having more impact over quality (aka, # of games more important than winrate). I really don't know if there's a way to use a ladder-like system without it favoring playing a shit-ton of games.
Perhaps, it would at least eliminate people form having multiple accounts in play.
Any old timers around to confirm this deja vu feeling I've been having that the WCS ladder competitions is patterned after the TSL 2 qualifierson ICCUP?
Funny how trying to call back to that just gets everyone pointing out how bad the system is. Then again TSL had a bunch of players thrown out for trying to game the ladder then too.
Difference being we were transparent with the information. I don't recall anyone protesting like Major has done.
Since I got someone in the know, did you guys have lawyers involved then? Cuz they tend to have a weird influence on things.
Back to the memory lane, I do remember a lot of non-players were skeptical about the ability to track players via replay keystrokes / keybinds / ect. Scene was a lot more tight knit then too and I remember most people 'fessed up once they were caught. But I was only barely following starcraft then so what do I know?
Hotbid was our lawyer most people were caught by IP matching.
On April 16 2016 09:42 Jj_82 wrote: Bad guy Blizzard could've warned everyone beforehand. Prevent drama.
Warned everyone to, what.. not cheat?
I think the rulebook they released could be considered "warning."
Yeah, but even the rulebook contained very general guidelines. I think the problem here is that the ladder is a very unique environment compared to standard bracket qualifiers and the like. While you can fault people for failing to read the rulebook, there really needs to be warnings and rather than having such a severe punishment, simply booting them from qualification is sufficient. That is an appropriate warning and punishment for this kind of thing. Then, they can make an official followup to it saying that future tournaments, including ladder qualifiers, will be more strict, and they can CLEARLY go over what kind of behavior is not appropriate, while also giving an idea of what kind of punishment would ensue.
Players do do dumb things sometimes, but it's really important to make sure that players understand both the rules and the consequences. When using something like the ladder, where people are already used to doing things, like not caring about leaving matches, and testing stuff, because, let's be real, that's actually what the ladder is good for, they need to go out of their way to establish a ruleset and appropriate behavior for that kind of thing. They should be specifically stating that boosting an account, and using shared accounts during this period, and insta-leaving games are simply not allowed...
It's just a lot better to be more lenient on rules when trying new things. Once Blizzard has established a clear set of expectations and rules that apply to this kind of qualifier, they can dish out the harsher punishments. Now, I don't think what they did to MarineLord is like, horribly unfair, but I'd still actually put it on the "harsh" side of things. And Major got screwed just as hard, despite doing, in my opinion, a much less significant "crime".
I just hope that Blizzard is able to see their faults here, cause I don't think they want bad things for the Starcraft scene, but they make some rather poor choices sometimes, and it's a pity because I'm pretty sure they are putting more money in than they are getting out of it with SC2 Esports.
Yeah, but even the rulebook contained very general guidelines. I think the problem here is that the ladder is a very unique environment compared to standard bracket qualifiers and the like. While you can fault people for failing to read the rulebook, there really needs to be warnings and rather than having such a severe punishment, simply booting them from qualification is sufficient. That is an appropriate warning and punishment for this kind of thing. Then, they can make an official followup to it saying that future tournaments, including ladder qualifiers, will be more strict, and they can CLEARLY go over what kind of behavior is not appropriate, while also giving an idea of what kind of punishment would ensue.
Players do do dumb things sometimes, but it's really important to make sure that players understand both the rules and the consequences. When using something like the ladder, where people are already used to doing things, like not caring about leaving matches, and testing stuff, because, let's be real, that's actually what the ladder is good for, they need to go out of their way to establish a ruleset and appropriate behavior for that kind of thing. They should be specifically stating that boosting an account, and using shared accounts during this period, and insta-leaving games are simply not allowed...
It's just a lot better to be more lenient on rules when trying new things. Once Blizzard has established a clear set of expectations and rules that apply to this kind of qualifier, they can dish out the harsher punishments. Now, I don't think what they did to MarineLord is like, horribly unfair, but I'd still actually put it on the "harsh" side of things. And Major got screwed just as hard, despite doing, in my opinion, a much less significant "crime".
I just hope that Blizzard is able to see their faults here, cause I don't think they want bad things for the Starcraft scene, but they make some rather poor choices sometimes, and it's a pity because I'm pretty sure they are putting more money in than they are getting out of it with SC2 Esports.
They win traded, to gain rank. How can you even say that's just the player doing a "dumb thing". No, it's the player cheating to gain ladder rank to get into the qualifier. It's that simple. Marinelord is 20 years old and Major is 23 years old, they are both old enough to know that doing shit like that is cheating.
"Well, I just stole a loaf of bread, it's only a 99 cent item, but please don't punish me because I do dumb things sometimes" Nope, you're still going to get prosecuted and either get fined/community service or jail time depending on your age. With this point, it's basically, you cheat to manipulate WCS ranking, why not delete all the ranking they were trying to manipulate.
At 23 and 20 you should god damn know better.
Rulebook or not, wintrading to gain rank is fucking stupid and should be punished severely.
On April 16 2016 09:42 Jj_82 wrote: Bad guy Blizzard could've warned everyone beforehand. Prevent drama.
Warned everyone to, what.. not cheat?
I think the rulebook they released could be considered "warning."
Yes, let's talk about the rulebook that was released 24 hours before the incriminated games were played and that contains no indication of which punishment is applied to a given rulebreak.
Stop defending these people. They are educated and knew exactly what they were doing. The game is better off without them and so is the scene.
There are far to many Blizzard haters around and they will use any excuse to lash out at the company. This is Blizzards tournament and Blizzards money promoting this. The rules are there and all the players know them before they participate
If you dont like the rules, don't participate. If want to cheat well fine, do so but when you get caught dont bitch like a 10 year old running to mama for help.
Have any of you considered that money may have changed hands for win trading. Where there is money there is corruption. These players should never get a game in a tournament again as far as i am concerned
On April 16 2016 15:30 Topdoller wrote: Stop defending these people. They are educated and knew exactly what they were doing. The game is better off without them and so is the scene.
There are far to many Blizzard haters around and they will use any excuse to lash out at the company. This is Blizzards tournament and Blizzards money promoting this. The rules are there and all the players know them before they participate
If you dont like the rules, don't participate. If want to cheat well fine, do so but when you get caught dont bitch like a 10 year old running to mama for help.
Have any of you considered that money may have changed hands for win trading. Where there is money there is corruption. These players should never get a game in a tournament again as far as i am concerned
Most of the criticism is not about the punishment, but about the criteria for deciding who will recieve the punishment (and previous establishment of that)
I don't think "defending" is quite the right word. I mean, we all know MarineLord is guilty, and Major is somewhat guilty, but not reeaaally guilty. We don't have much more information than that.
But some of us think that there are better ways of punishing the players and responding to this kind of thing. Once again, the rules aren't even that clear. I don't think Major was losing matches to qualify anyone. You can call him a cheater, but that's pretty silly. MarineLord, on the other hand, made a public statement about it, so...
Of course, qualifying for the thing nets them $400 straight up, so it's clearly not okay to win-trade to get there. I don't think anyone has even tried to argue that point. But it's a vulnerable system, and it's also not really as clean-cut as throwing games in a bracket format. If you guys remember, or looked at the link I mentioned earlier, involving the Byun vs Coca match to qualify for Code A, those ended up both being fairly well-respected players. Byun is actually a pretty solid player now, despite only playing on a Chinese team. They got punished for it, but just like this, it was for a qualifier, and not a huge amount was on the line. Does that make it ok? Nope, but it also doesn't mean that a perma-ban is the appropriate response either.
Also yes, as OW mentions... They literally released the rules, which does not even talk extensively about scenarios like this, until the day BEFORE the thing happened. Like, maybe the players had access to it for a while? But, let's be real.... They probably didn't, and they probably didn't even get a notice anywhere saying it was released.
I'm glad Blizzard is concerned with the integrity of their tournament, but they handled the situation, and really, the whole qualifier in a poor manner.
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Great and exciting idea !
What would be the point of an open ladder competition then? Cuz that's what this is supposed to be after all. Like when QXC, despite being long retired, finished top-16 just to see if he could do it.
Edit: Or was the open part of the ladder competition only applied to the start of WCS?
I think this could be prevented adding a few days of pre-ladder, and the possibility at any time to "apply" through the BNet platform (this could be available only to people that have been GM on their account once in the past - don't kid yourself, someone that has never made GM once has no chance to be amongst the last 16). The 200 person requirement of GM doesn't need to be reproduced. The problem with ladder qualifications is that it's impossible to make a flawless system. In my post, I mostly addressed the issue of players that are already through and screw the competitions. A downside you'll never get rid of is people that are in, but have no chance to go through anymore that can rig the competition towards the end. I think these people deserve to be punished just as hard, such as ShaDown, whose behavior is entirely despicable (what's the point of rigging something just to rig it? are you 12yo dude? at least the other guys had some incentive). Maybe tweaking the matchmaking system in the last few hours such that you meet with higher priority people close to your rank. I believe this would work decently as the ladder is super active in the last few hours (last day in general). Once more, no one system is perfect, and you would expect adults not to rig a goddamn qualifier for a qualifier, in the end, only 2 players make it so maybe focus on your own performance instead...
On April 16 2016 09:42 Jj_82 wrote: Bad guy Blizzard could've warned everyone beforehand. Prevent drama.
Warned everyone to, what.. not cheat?
I think the rulebook they released could be considered "warning."
Yes, let's talk about the rulebook that was released 24 hours before the incriminated games were played and that contains no indication of which punishment is applied to a given rulebreak.
So you just go yolo then and hope for a not so bad punishment? If you cheated and get caught you deal with the consequences.
On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote: This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up.
Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that?
Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right.
Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man.
P.S.: no word about Bly. I nearly forgot.
Why is it "right" for them to share information with you? You are not the judge on this case, what you think is frankly irrelevant. They conducted a investegation, found the evidence sufficient to punish the players in question and did so. Why do you think you have right to any information besides that?
They were'nt "shoot first and asking questions later". They conducted a investegation, came to a conclusion and acted on that conclusion.
You are not "telling it to their face", you are on a internet forum demanding information to a investegation you are not a part of.
They did shoot first and ask questions later. Major was not even contacted beforehand either for questions or even for being notified about the punishement. They were unlikely done with investigating too when they took actions otherwise there is no reason it would take them a week to write a full statement. They even stated that the investigation was "ongoing" and used a very strong and meaningful word "match-fixing". The way Blizzard handled the case regardless of whether you agree with their conclusion is so full of bullshit, I don't know how this is defendable. Sure Major's reputation is pretty well known but this is not enough to condamn him. I have no reason to believe Blizzard either with so many signs of screw up, especially when Major is the only convicted while others get out with nothing or just a warning. Until proven wrong by overwhelming evidence, I am not buying their side of the story because I believe in presumption of innocence. As if wintrading can happen alone, and if leaving game is unfair, then anyone leaving game is suspicious and should be investigated. Their ruling is vague and credibility on this case thin as hell.
I am on an Internet forum that is read by Blizzard employees as shown multiple times in the past. So yeah I am telling to their face, the only public way to be more direct would be to write an email to them.
And again how about you stop antagonizing people who ask for transparency? God forbids me for thinking something is wrong and asking for that. I disagree with you and Blizzard's way on this case, I'm entitled to my opinion and the ability to voice it, get off people's back trying to make them think otherwise.
They conducted an investigation, came to a conclusion and handed out a punishment. That is the order it was done in and it is the order it should be done in. Contacting Major, if you believe him when he says they didn't, is not needed if they have sufficient evidence and it is not needed to come to a conclusion. So why woul that be required of them?
You do realize it is entirely possible to conclude that one person is guilty while contuing the investigantion into toher players? They were not looking only into Major but into other players as well.
How is it not defensible? What did they do wrong?
Major is not the only one who got convicted, SnD and MrineLord was as well, and they both admited it. So we know Blizzard was right.
They don't have to prove anything to you. You are not the judge in this case, and I'm not sure why you think this should be a trial by public opinion? Why do you think Blizzard needs to answer to you befor taking actions? Are you somehow in charge of Blizzards decisions.
How is the credibility thin? Two of the three people convicted admited it and Major himself admited to leaving games and sharing a account involved in match fixing.
Please, you are offended by someone disagreeing with you? If you can't handle that, don't poste on a public forum.
Dude. I'm not offended. Feel free to disagree. Just do whatever you want except telling me what I should think and say. I say they're wrong. Deal with it.
Usually ones opinion is made on the basis of facts and arguments. I have presented mine for why I think yours is wrong and you seem completly unable to come up with a argument supporting your own point of view.
Maybe throw them into the dungeon? Where is the evidence, where is the justice? People in jail that killed other people get more pardoning than this...
this is not a public trial, this is a company ruling on an internal issue. No laws has been broken, so blizzard can decide whatever the fuck they want as long as it's not against the law
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
It is more than "trust me". Blizzard stated the offences. In which detail should Blizzard provide evidence? If they make the stats available for download, they still could have manipulated them if you don't think you can trust them. Or they could be so incompetent that they forgot to upload some stats which would question the conclusion Blizzard drew. Should they invite you and a team of IT guys to fly to the Blizzard HQ and check all the logs?
Using another (shared) account which pushes one's ladder standing, that things which can hardly happen through an accident.
Do you really need a new 'rule book' clarifying that account-sharing is against the rules? Unless I'm mistaken, that's been against Blizzard ToS across their games for quite some time.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
It is more than "trust me". Blizzard stated the offences. In which detail should Blizzard provide evidence? If they make the stats available for download, they still could have manipulated them if you don't think you can trust them. Or they could be so incompetent that they forgot to upload some stats which would question the conclusion Blizzard drew. Should they invite you and a team of IT guys to fly to the Blizzard HQ and check all the logs?
Using another (shared) account which pushes one's ladder standing, that things which can hardly happen through an accident.
Judging whether a player is win trading brings up a lot of questions.
If chat is used as evidence, what is the content of the chat? Is it something unambiguous like "Here's your free win for the season. I expect the favor returned on NA ladder in season 3"? Or is it vague or ambiguous? If it's not completely clear, how much significance is it given and on what basis is it interpreted?
If gameplay is used as evidence, then what qualifies as deliberately not winning? Players make huge mistakes in major tournaments that instantly throw the game all the time. So much so that there's a catchphrase that SC2 anti-fans repeat to each other: going full foreigner. Is a similar mistake in a ladder game evidence of deliberately losing? How much do the people judging this know about the game at the level of these players? Do they know how to analyze a replay for patterns in commands and camera movement?
What is considered a normal pattern of playing ladder for a particular player? Most players do not try their hardest to win in every ladder game. In this case, what is Major's history of ladder play in the months and years previous to this? Has he left games without any discernible reason before?
Account sharing is done so frequently simply for convenience or harmless reasons, which Blizzard has had a clear history of tolerating and even encouraging/approving, that merely proving account sharing happened is not really proof of anything. Yes it's something that Blizzard can ban you for itself when they choose to enforce it, but considering that they don't do that, then it's only relevant here as evidence of some kind of foul play. In this case, account sharing is only relevant to the extent that it was necessary or builds a case toward win trading occurring. The account sharing, like the chat and the gameplay and the ladder records, is just another thing that can contribute to building the case that win trading was taking place. So, how often has Major shared accounts without being involved in win trading? How often have the other players shared accounts? Is there any reason other than win trading that they'd be sharing accounts now?
Major was specifically accused of win trading but there were no references to wins he received that benefited him. What wins did he receive? What was Major getting out of it? Or what was he promised?
--
It's possible that the evidence Blizzard reviewed painted a very clear picture and they did not make a mistake. However, it could be that the case is much trickier and the process and reasoning of the Blizzard esports team were erroneous in one or more ways. If this case was not tricky, I can certainly imagine cases that are. But if all we're going to get is Blizzard's judgment and vague references to some of the evidence they reviewed, then we'll never know how good of a job they're doing. I'm not comfortable with that. I remember viewing some of the discussions for misbehavior in the past, and we had some of the smartest and wisest and most experienced people in the community all working together to figure things out (top players analyzing gameplay, bwchart experts analyzing replay patterns, etc), and things were still very hard to figure out. So when I read this from the Blizzard esports team basically saying "trust us" in a situation that could potentially require a TON of expertise and experience and still come down to judgment calls, I'm uncomfortable.
The whole thing about technical data providing evidence of account sharing is such a minor thing that has almost nothing to do with what I'm saying that I'm surprised so many people bring it up. That's actually an example of something I do perfectly trust Blizzard to acquire and interpret that data accurately. I'm not concerned about that at all.
edit: Actually the thing that is concerning about that is that so many players are guilty of account sharing, that if any vague situation arises in which they can also prove account sharing, and their move is to say "Well at the very least we found direct evidence of account sharing and that's against the TOS so we're banning him" then that'll be really unfair. Blizzard ought to be clear about this right now if account sharing is going to be an issue. If it's not going to be tolerated, then go ahead and eliminate all the instances in which it's allowed just for convenience or whatever. Get black and white on account sharing immediately or all these judgments are gonna be potentially really unjust.
Blizzard seems to imply that it wants to withhold the identities of the players who received the alleged free wins, because it could not determined if they were complicit in the exchange or not.
How can Blizzard effectively share what they have without exposing the names of possible pros or community members who benefited from the alleged free wins and who may or may not be innocent of wrongdoing, but might look bad regardless? How should they handle this aspect?
It seems like they could open themselves up to a deeper round of second-guessing "why him, but not this other guy" if they say more than they have..
On April 19 2016 10:11 NonY wrote: edit: Actually the thing that is concerning about that is that so many players are guilty of account sharing, that if any vague situation arises in which they can also prove account sharing, and their move is to say "Well at the very least we found direct evidence of account sharing and that's against the TOS so we're banning him" then that'll be really unfair. Blizzard ought to be clear about this right now if account sharing is going to be an issue. If it's not going to be tolerated, then go ahead and eliminate all the instances in which it's allowed just for convenience or whatever. Get black and white on account sharing immediately or all these judgments are gonna be potentially really unjust.
This last paragraph is a really great point that transcends the issue at hand. Because this an approach we see ever so often in all kinds of rules: let us make a rule that is often broken so that we can enforce it when it suits us. Sadly even a lot of "real-life" law looks lite that nowadays ... This should definitely be criticized at every instance.
On April 19 2016 10:11 NonY wrote: edit: Actually the thing that is concerning about that is that so many players are guilty of account sharing, that if any vague situation arises in which they can also prove account sharing, and their move is to say "Well at the very least we found direct evidence of account sharing and that's against the TOS so we're banning him" then that'll be really unfair. Blizzard ought to be clear about this right now if account sharing is going to be an issue. If it's not going to be tolerated, then go ahead and eliminate all the instances in which it's allowed just for convenience or whatever. Get black and white on account sharing immediately or all these judgments are gonna be potentially really unjust.
This last paragraph is a really great point that transcends the issue at hand. Because this an approach we see ever so often in all kinds of rules: let us make a rule that is often broken so that we can enforce it when it suits us. Sadly even a lot of "real-life" law looks lite that nowadays ... This should definitely be criticized at every instance.
Yes, it's pretty worrying that that's their stance.
"You may all break the rules, go ahead. As soon as we want, we'll use it as an excuse to punish you. "
"We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment"
The issue they're concerned with isn't account sharing; it's doing it during ladder competitions
On April 19 2016 21:17 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Why can't people read.
"We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment"
The issue they're concerned with isn't account sharing; it's doing it during ladder competitions
Only enforcing a rule when you feel like enforcing it makes no sense. Basically it's not a rule anymore, is it?
There's also the fact that it's ridiculous to impede professional players from their practice during ladder competitions.
"There's a ladder competition going on, so you can't ladder for practice, ok?"
Overall, the ladder qualifier is just bad and the way Blizzard runs it is also not very good.
On April 19 2016 21:17 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Why can't people read.
"We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment"
The issue they're concerned with isn't account sharing; it's doing it during ladder competitions
Only enforcing a rule when you feel like enforcing it makes no sense. Basically it's not a rule anymore, is it?
There's also the fact that it's ridiculous to impede professional players from their practice during ladder competitions.
"There's a ladder competition going on, so you can't ladder for practice, ok?"
Overall, the ladder qualifier is just bad and the way Blizzard runs it is also not very good.
I agree with the fact that the ladder qualifier needs reworking, but "There's a ladder competition going on, so you can't ladder for practice" is overstating it surely.
The whole system came out of the opinion that ladder needed to mean something, and that it's nice to have a ranking of who the top 16 players in the region are sans barcodes. While I don't think that this system delivers at all on that promise, how are shared accounts meant to help with that? Is it too much to ask that for the competition period, players use their own accounts / smurfs?
On April 19 2016 10:11 NonY wrote: Judging whether a player is win trading brings up a lot of questions.
Indeed. How can we know that this isn't part of an evil government conspiracy? After all, we don't know EVERYTHING, so ANYTHING could be happening.
What are you actually asking for? They provided their reasoning in the initial post, where they also explained why they wouldn't make the replays public - to protect privacy.
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Do you have evidence that Blizzard doesn't have that proves innocence?
On April 19 2016 10:11 NonY wrote: Account sharing is done so frequently simply for convenience or harmless reasons, which Blizzard has had a clear history of tolerating and even encouraging/approving, that merely proving account sharing happened is not really proof of anything.
From the initial post:
We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment. Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question. We take this stance to prevent pro-level players from ranking up accounts and then distributing them to third parties to manipulate the standings.
Blizzard Entertainment will continue to monitor all esports competitions, especially ones we sponsor or run directly. As a core part of the StarCraft II experience, we take behavior on the ladder very seriously. We reserve the right to escalate our responses to these issues in order to discourage future ladder manipulation. Ladder-integration into the World Championship Series this year has had many positive effects for viewers and players alike, but in order to keep the ladder as a method of qualification, we must remain vigilant against unfair manipulation.
Of course it's possible that Blizzard made a mistake, just as it's possible to be falsely convicted of murder. Perhaps, as a precaution, don't share your account and don't win-trade.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote: What are you actually asking for?
To see all the evidence they considered and all the interpretations of that evidence and the arguments made about the meaning of the evidence.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:They provided their reasoning in the initial post, where they also explained why they wouldn't make the replays public - to protect privacy.
This doesn't help me accept the situation at all. Their decision to keep some things private to protect privacy is just as suspect as their decision to punish people. What if there's evidence of guilt and they hide it by saying that they'd rather protect privacy?
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Why do you deserve to see the proof?
I want to do my part to make sure they're doing a good job. I have experience with these investigations and I think there are some things about the case that I'd understand better than anyone on the Blizzard esports team. Similarly there are many people in the community that can bring greater value to working the case than the people on the Blizzard esports team. Public scrutiny would lead to a better result.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard?
I don't think the public should be part of the decision-making process, but their awareness of the case would make sure Blizzard is not being blatantly unfair. Additionally, the contributions the community could make would be a valuable resource for the Blizzard esports team to make a correct decision.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case?
Yeah I think there should be, but since it's not the public's job I don't want to place too much obligation. I'd say there's some kind of duty.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation?
Yes.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair?
Blizzard presents the case in its totality but without issuing a ruling. The public can review it and contribute to it. Blizzard can choose to process the case again or simply take the contributions of the public under consideration. The ruling would be given with an opinion, not just a sentencing.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:How do you ensure player privacy?
You don't. Players don't have privacy in the first place. It's a public competition.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"?
Everything on b.net should be public, yeah. If someone else turns over chat logs from a different source, then that's their decision to have done so.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship?
Nothing should be censored at all. Everything could be relevant to judging what actually happened.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Do you have evidence that Blizzard doesn't have that proves innocence?
Of course the accused should be able to defend themselves. Absolutely absurd that people were banned before they even got to say a word.
On April 19 2016 10:11 NonY wrote: Account sharing is done so frequently simply for convenience or harmless reasons, which Blizzard has had a clear history of tolerating and even encouraging/approving, that merely proving account sharing happened is not really proof of anything.
We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment. Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question. We take this stance to prevent pro-level players from ranking up accounts and then distributing them to third parties to manipulate the standings.
Blizzard Entertainment will continue to monitor all esports competitions, especially ones we sponsor or run directly. As a core part of the StarCraft II experience, we take behavior on the ladder very seriously. We reserve the right to escalate our responses to these issues in order to discourage future ladder manipulation. Ladder-integration into the World Championship Series this year has had many positive effects for viewers and players alike, but in order to keep the ladder as a method of qualification, we must remain vigilant against unfair manipulation.
Yeah, this is such a joke. They don't take the ladder seriously enough. The amount of hacking, account-sharing and generally anti-competitive behavior that occurs on their ladder makes this statement from Blizzard a bunch of bullshit. Even if they want to take it seriously, they do not have the ability or the resources to do so. If they are actually going to start being serious about account-sharing, then I'm expecting a bunch more bans coming soon. If no one is getting banned now, then it's like I said: they're saving it as an ace up their sleeve to ban people for other reasons.
On April 19 2016 21:37 Quineotio wrote:Of course it's possible that Blizzard made a mistake, just as it's possible to be falsely convicted of murder. Perhaps, as a precaution, don't share your account and don't win-trade.
That's good advice to players. But even without account-sharing and win-trading, there are still many cases with large gray areas in which a player could be punished without just cause. Your advice does not address nearly all of my concern either.
----
TBH I can't tell if you're arguing against what I'm saying or not because by asking all these questions, you're actually beginning the project with me of how Blizzard could handle this better. I sort of 80% feel like you're asking me all these questions to prove that since I can't immediately tell you during my 10mins of forum browsing how Blizzard eSports should handle these cases with absolutely zero downsides then my all of my ideas should be disregarded. IDK if you're just going to make us regress to talking philosophy about privacy vs justice, etc. If that's all that you're willing to accept are changes that are 100% improvements with zero downsides, then I guess we can start there. Personally as a player, I'm willing to say that my SC2 life is all public and professional and I don't expect privacy in any of it if that would minimize the chance of something unjust happening to me.
On April 19 2016 21:17 thecrazymunchkin wrote: Why can't people read.
"We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment"
The issue they're concerned with isn't account sharing; it's doing it during ladder competitions
Only enforcing a rule when you feel like enforcing it makes no sense. Basically it's not a rule anymore, is it?
There's also the fact that it's ridiculous to impede professional players from their practice during ladder competitions.
"There's a ladder competition going on, so you can't ladder for practice, ok?"
Overall, the ladder qualifier is just bad and the way Blizzard runs it is also not very good.
I agree with the fact that the ladder qualifier needs reworking, but "There's a ladder competition going on, so you can't ladder for practice" is overstating it surely.
The whole system came out of the opinion that ladder needed to mean something, and that it's nice to have a ranking of who the top 16 players in the region are sans barcodes. While I don't think that this system delivers at all on that promise, how are shared accounts meant to help with that? Is it too much to ask that for the competition period, players use their own accounts / smurfs?
I can certainly see that it'd be nice to have a meaningful ladder, there's nothing wrong with that notion. Nor is there anything wrong with Blizzard enforcing their ToS.
What is questionable though is arbitrarily enforcing some of the rules from the ToS whenever Blizzard feels like it, rather than whenever those rules are broken in the first place. Especially when Blizzard feels like enforcing the rules when they want to justify banning players from the ladder.
"There's a ladder competition going on, so you can't ladder for practice" is overstating it a little, but not all that much. Players are no longer allowed to treat ladder games as mere practice during those times, they need to play to win. Trying out a new build or cheese, or rage-quitting, or leaving because you messed up, is forbidden during a ladder competition since doing those things will mess up the meaning of the ladder.
If you would like to have a meaningful ladder, then perhaps what should be considered is to both enforce the ToS to be respected and also allow professional players to hide information about their builds or hide replays, as well as anything else which puts their repertoire of strategies at risk before a tournament. That is why barcodes exist in the first place, as far as I know. Anyway, it's not like I would know, I am merely pointing out the inherent flaws of both the ladder qualifier and the way Blizzard runs it.
Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope)
On April 20 2016 00:13 deacon.frost wrote: Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope)
There are so many other methods of communication than b.net for private communication. E-mail, Skype, Discord, Twitter DM's, etc. Players are perfectly capable of using b.net chat only for practical reasons, like asking for a pause and asking if it's okay to resume, to say gl and to say gg, for light conversation etc. You act like we'd revealing private things but in reality b.net would simply not be used to discuss private things anymore. In the worst scenario, when a player under investigation has foolishly decided to write private things, then we do not sacrifice the best process for justice just to respect a right to privacy that they chose to forfeit.
Players already kind of deal with that because of streaming. Either a player streams and obviously they know nothing is private or they are aware that the other person could be streaming. There's already awareness and caution about what's said on b.net.
Anyway, those private things are ALREADY being read by strangers. It's just a matter of how many strangers are reading them. That can make a big difference, but let's not act like it's harmless that Blizzard invades this "privacy" themselves already. So when you say private things should remain private... well, that's already not the case. And if there is some erroneous thinking or behavior or incompetence or unfairness coming from the Blizzard esports team, then the fact that THEY get access to this privileged information and no one else does amplifies these issues. There are downsides to private information becoming public but there are also some things that are even worse about private information being revealed to the wrong people.
edit: The other thing is that a player could go ahead and confess and accept punishment privately so nothing but the outline of the case goes public. The disturbing thing about this case was that players were not even contacted about it before being given their punishments. At the very least, if a player wants to fight the case with an appeal to the public to review Blizzard esports team work, then that should be possible before a sentencing. Or if not the public, then some other group. Some third party at least to make the chance of a fair and good decision to increase. But there's no point to one of the players doing it now in this case. They gain nothing from it.
On April 20 2016 00:13 deacon.frost wrote: Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope)
There are so many other methods of communication than b.net for private communication. E-mail, Skype, Discord, Twitter DM's, etc. Players are perfectly capable of using b.net chat only for practical reasons, like asking for a pause and asking if it's okay to resume, to say gl and to say gg, for light conversation etc. You act like we'd revealing private things but in reality b.net would simply not be used to discuss private things anymore. In the worst scenario, when a player under investigation has foolishly decided to write private things, then we do not sacrifice the best process for justice just to respect a right to privacy that they chose to forfeit.
Yeah, but you know how people get about throwing out unfounded accusations. Showing these replays will implicate whomever was receiving the wins, which means their reputations could very easily be tarnished even if they are innocent. This would especially be true if they said something in chat that looks bad under the circumstances, but didn't intend for it to be a public statement and was perhaps just said sarcastically or whatever.
Damn this is really dramatic for account sharing, but can't say I don't agree with Blizzard here, but not entirely....stripping all WCS points is a little.....extreme. >_<
I think there should be an independent body assigned to handling reviews of evidence and doling out punishments. Blizzard is just too close to everything to be seen as a neutral party. Apparently people suspect them of foul play, or at least incompetency. Why not appoint a group of dedicated and qualified volunteers to confidentially look at available evidence and adjudicate? This way potentially sensitive information doesn't have to be thrown to the masses in order to satisfy them.
On April 20 2016 03:07 GGzerG wrote: Damn this is really dramatic for account sharing, but can't say I don't agree with Blizzard here, but not entirely....stripping all WCS points is a little.....extreme. >_<
It's only 435 points for Marinelord and 325 points for Major. Not that many points.
Irrelevant players have been caught cheating the system. They knew their wintrades and account sharing WAS SHADY, and gained them an advantage over other players.
If Blizzards wants players to qualify via ladder, players should treat it like a self organized Tournament. You won't leave a game after actively pressing a button to queu and take "medicine" in a Tournament, you don't let anybody else play in your stead in a Tournament, you don't give FreeWins in a Tournament. Grinding the Ladder on Stream or for Practice is a completely different thing.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
It is more than "trust me". Blizzard stated the offences. In which detail should Blizzard provide evidence? If they make the stats available for download, they still could have manipulated them if you don't think you can trust them. Or they could be so incompetent that they forgot to upload some stats which would question the conclusion Blizzard drew. Should they invite you and a team of IT guys to fly to the Blizzard HQ and check all the logs?
Using another (shared) account which pushes one's ladder standing, that things which can hardly happen through an accident.
People wont understand it. They think blizzard is a person with feelings and aversions. But blizzard consists of many people, every decision is a team effort. Why would such an entity want to punish players for nothing?
Even when you piss off the ceo, it would take a lot until blizzard punishes you, because they have to explain it to their shareholders and have to think about their image.
On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote: Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself.
It is more than "trust me". Blizzard stated the offences. In which detail should Blizzard provide evidence? If they make the stats available for download, they still could have manipulated them if you don't think you can trust them. Or they could be so incompetent that they forgot to upload some stats which would question the conclusion Blizzard drew. Should they invite you and a team of IT guys to fly to the Blizzard HQ and check all the logs?
Using another (shared) account which pushes one's ladder standing, that things which can hardly happen through an accident.
Judging whether a player is win trading brings up a lot of questions.
If chat is used as evidence, what is the content of the chat? Is it something unambiguous like "Here's your free win for the season. I expect the favor returned on NA ladder in season 3"? Or is it vague or ambiguous? If it's not completely clear, how much significance is it given and on what basis is it interpreted?
If gameplay is used as evidence, then what qualifies as deliberately not winning? Players make huge mistakes in major tournaments that instantly throw the game all the time. So much so that there's a catchphrase that SC2 anti-fans repeat to each other: going full foreigner. Is a similar mistake in a ladder game evidence of deliberately losing? How much do the people judging this know about the game at the level of these players? Do they know how to analyze a replay for patterns in commands and camera movement?
What is considered a normal pattern of playing ladder for a particular player? Most players do not try their hardest to win in every ladder game. In this case, what is Major's history of ladder play in the months and years previous to this? Has he left games without any discernible reason before?
Account sharing is done so frequently simply for convenience or harmless reasons, which Blizzard has had a clear history of tolerating and even encouraging/approving, that merely proving account sharing happened is not really proof of anything. Yes it's something that Blizzard can ban you for itself when they choose to enforce it, but considering that they don't do that, then it's only relevant here as evidence of some kind of foul play. In this case, account sharing is only relevant to the extent that it was necessary or builds a case toward win trading occurring. The account sharing, like the chat and the gameplay and the ladder records, is just another thing that can contribute to building the case that win trading was taking place. So, how often has Major shared accounts without being involved in win trading? How often have the other players shared accounts? Is there any reason other than win trading that they'd be sharing accounts now?
If it was that vague, it would strike many players, but it didnt. It cant be that vague.
On April 20 2016 00:13 deacon.frost wrote: Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope)
There are so many other methods of communication than b.net for private communication. E-mail, Skype, Discord, Twitter DM's, etc. Players are perfectly capable of using b.net chat only for practical reasons, like asking for a pause and asking if it's okay to resume, to say gl and to say gg, for light conversation etc. You act like we'd revealing private things but in reality b.net would simply not be used to discuss private things anymore. In the worst scenario, when a player under investigation has foolishly decided to write private things, then we do not sacrifice the best process for justice just to respect a right to privacy that they chose to forfeit.
Players already kind of deal with that because of streaming. Either a player streams and obviously they know nothing is private or they are aware that the other person could be streaming. There's already awareness and caution about what's said on b.net.
LOL? Then why aren't the players providing these if they are so eager to prove their innocence. If I were implicated, I would totally come forth and post all my replays for public scrutiny
Anyway, those private things are ALREADY being read by strangers. It's just a matter of how many strangers are reading them. That can make a big difference, but let's not act like it's harmless that Blizzard invades this "privacy" themselves already. So when you say private things should remain private... well, that's already not the case. And if there is some erroneous thinking or behavior or incompetence or unfairness coming from the Blizzard esports team, then the fact that THEY get access to this privileged information and no one else does amplifies these issues. There are downsides to private information becoming public but there are also some things that are even worse about private information being revealed to the wrong people.
Can't tell if you are being serious or just trolling here. Blizzard can't be invading privacy on their own property. Did you even read the ToS? The players don't own anything except for a license to play. Those conversations, also, is not public domain. You can say whatever, but the foundation of your argument is false
edit: The other thing is that a player could go ahead and confess and accept punishment privately so nothing but the outline of the case goes public. The disturbing thing about this case was that players were not even contacted about it before being given their punishments. At the very least, if a player wants to fight the case with an appeal to the public to review Blizzard esports team work, then that should be possible before a sentencing. Or if not the public, then some other group. Some third party at least to make the chance of a fair and good decision to increase. But there's no point to one of the players doing it now in this case. They gain nothing from it.
This ain't a circus. It's like the cheating bans, do you honestly want Blizzard to contact each of the 20000 account holders and ask them to if they actually cheated and want to appeal? yeah........ think about it
EPT
I guess if you're in the top 16 of the ladder, you should never queue if there is any chance of you having to leave the queue or the game before it is finished. Too suspicious.
Justice is served. 
