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8751 Posts
On April 20 2016 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:
Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope)
There are so many other methods of communication than b.net for private communication. E-mail, Skype, Discord, Twitter DM's, etc. Players are perfectly capable of using b.net chat only for practical reasons, like asking for a pause and asking if it's okay to resume, to say gl and to say gg, for light conversation etc. You act like we'd revealing private things but in reality b.net would simply not be used to discuss private things anymore. In the worst scenario, when a player under investigation has foolishly decided to write private things, then we do not sacrifice the best process for justice just to respect a right to privacy that they chose to forfeit.
Players already kind of deal with that because of streaming. Either a player streams and obviously they know nothing is private or they are aware that the other person could be streaming. There's already awareness and caution about what's said on b.net.
Anyway, those private things are ALREADY being read by strangers. It's just a matter of how many strangers are reading them. That can make a big difference, but let's not act like it's harmless that Blizzard invades this "privacy" themselves already. So when you say private things should remain private... well, that's already not the case. And if there is some erroneous thinking or behavior or incompetence or unfairness coming from the Blizzard esports team, then the fact that THEY get access to this privileged information and no one else does amplifies these issues. There are downsides to private information becoming public but there are also some things that are even worse about private information being revealed to the wrong people.
edit: The other thing is that a player could go ahead and confess and accept punishment privately so nothing but the outline of the case goes public. The disturbing thing about this case was that players were not even contacted about it before being given their punishments. At the very least, if a player wants to fight the case with an appeal to the public to review Blizzard esports team work, then that should be possible before a sentencing. Or if not the public, then some other group. Some third party at least to make the chance of a fair and good decision to increase. But there's no point to one of the players doing it now in this case. They gain nothing from it.
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On April 20 2016 02:43 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:
Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope) There are so many other methods of communication than b.net for private communication. E-mail, Skype, Discord, Twitter DM's, etc. Players are perfectly capable of using b.net chat only for practical reasons, like asking for a pause and asking if it's okay to resume, to say gl and to say gg, for light conversation etc. You act like we'd revealing private things but in reality b.net would simply not be used to discuss private things anymore. In the worst scenario, when a player under investigation has foolishly decided to write private things, then we do not sacrifice the best process for justice just to respect a right to privacy that they chose to forfeit.
Yeah, but you know how people get about throwing out unfounded accusations. Showing these replays will implicate whomever was receiving the wins, which means their reputations could very easily be tarnished even if they are innocent. This would especially be true if they said something in chat that looks bad under the circumstances, but didn't intend for it to be a public statement and was perhaps just said sarcastically or whatever.
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Damn this is really dramatic for account sharing, but can't say I don't agree with Blizzard here, but not entirely....stripping all WCS points is a little.....extreme. >_<
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I think there should be an independent body assigned to handling reviews of evidence and doling out punishments. Blizzard is just too close to everything to be seen as a neutral party. Apparently people suspect them of foul play, or at least incompetency. Why not appoint a group of dedicated and qualified volunteers to confidentially look at available evidence and adjudicate? This way potentially sensitive information doesn't have to be thrown to the masses in order to satisfy them.
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On April 20 2016 03:07 GGzerG wrote:
Damn this is really dramatic for account sharing, but can't say I don't agree with Blizzard here, but not entirely....stripping all WCS points is a little.....extreme. >_<
It's only 435 points for Marinelord and 325 points for Major. Not that many points.
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Irrelevant players have been caught cheating the system. They knew their wintrades and account sharing WAS SHADY, and gained them an advantage over other players.
If Blizzards wants players to qualify via ladder, players should treat it like a self organized Tournament. You won't leave a game after actively pressing a button to queu and take "medicine" in a Tournament, you don't let anybody else play in your stead in a Tournament, you don't give FreeWins in a Tournament.
Grinding the Ladder on Stream or for Practice is a completely different thing.
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On April 17 2016 19:32 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote:
Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself. It is more than "trust me". Blizzard stated the offences. In which detail should Blizzard provide evidence? If they make the stats available for download, they still could have manipulated them if you don't think you can trust them. Or they could be so incompetent that they forgot to upload some stats which would question the conclusion Blizzard drew. Should they invite you and a team of IT guys to fly to the Blizzard HQ and check all the logs? Using another (shared) account which pushes one's ladder standing, that things which can hardly happen through an accident.
People wont understand it. They think blizzard is a person with feelings and aversions. But blizzard consists of many people, every decision is a team effort. Why would such an entity want to punish players for nothing?
Even when you piss off the ceo, it would take a lot until blizzard punishes you, because they have to explain it to their shareholders and have to think about their image.
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On April 19 2016 10:11 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2016 19:32 [F_]aths wrote:On April 15 2016 05:56 NonY wrote:
Even if Blizzard has good reasons for keep things private and it's not feasible for them to do otherwise, it doesn't mean we should have blind faith in their competence and fairness. Whatever arguments people make about "This is why they are so vague" are fine. But that just means we're trusting people with no record of competence and no record of fairness to make these decisions and we should be aware of that. On one hand it's nice that the people running the esport have connections to the company that runs the game so they obviously have access to resources that are very useful for doing their jobs well. But when that connection comes with limitations like this, then it becomes clear that it's not such a perfect situation. Personally, if someone I don't know says "trust me, I looked into it, here's what really happened" then that means almost nothing to me. If a bunch of people want to believe they're infallible when they haven't proven that they are, then they're going to earn a reputation for being infallible when they don't deserve it. So I feel more comfortable preaching skepticism and wanting to see the evidence for myself. It is more than "trust me". Blizzard stated the offences. In which detail should Blizzard provide evidence? If they make the stats available for download, they still could have manipulated them if you don't think you can trust them. Or they could be so incompetent that they forgot to upload some stats which would question the conclusion Blizzard drew. Should they invite you and a team of IT guys to fly to the Blizzard HQ and check all the logs? Using another (shared) account which pushes one's ladder standing, that things which can hardly happen through an accident. Judging whether a player is win trading brings up a lot of questions. If chat is used as evidence, what is the content of the chat? Is it something unambiguous like "Here's your free win for the season. I expect the favor returned on NA ladder in season 3"? Or is it vague or ambiguous? If it's not completely clear, how much significance is it given and on what basis is it interpreted? If gameplay is used as evidence, then what qualifies as deliberately not winning? Players make huge mistakes in major tournaments that instantly throw the game all the time. So much so that there's a catchphrase that SC2 anti-fans repeat to each other: going full foreigner. Is a similar mistake in a ladder game evidence of deliberately losing? How much do the people judging this know about the game at the level of these players? Do they know how to analyze a replay for patterns in commands and camera movement? What is considered a normal pattern of playing ladder for a particular player? Most players do not try their hardest to win in every ladder game. In this case, what is Major's history of ladder play in the months and years previous to this? Has he left games without any discernible reason before? Account sharing is done so frequently simply for convenience or harmless reasons, which Blizzard has had a clear history of tolerating and even encouraging/approving, that merely proving account sharing happened is not really proof of anything. Yes it's something that Blizzard can ban you for itself when they choose to enforce it, but considering that they don't do that, then it's only relevant here as evidence of some kind of foul play. In this case, account sharing is only relevant to the extent that it was necessary or builds a case toward win trading occurring. The account sharing, like the chat and the gameplay and the ladder records, is just another thing that can contribute to building the case that win trading was taking place. So, how often has Major shared accounts without being involved in win trading? How often have the other players shared accounts? Is there any reason other than win trading that they'd be sharing accounts now?
If it was that vague, it would strike many players, but it didnt. It cant be that vague.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 20 2016 02:43 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:
Uhm, Nony, you do realize that players could chat about something that is really a fucking private thing? The statement that everything should be public is the biggest stupidity I have seen recently. Seriously? Imagine you chatting about some sensitive topic and then someone releasing this publicly because there's nothing private. Somethings are just private and should remain private.
C'mon, this is not good and you know it... (at least I hope) There are so many other methods of communication than b.net for private communication. E-mail, Skype, Discord, Twitter DM's, etc. Players are perfectly capable of using b.net chat only for practical reasons, like asking for a pause and asking if it's okay to resume, to say gl and to say gg, for light conversation etc. You act like we'd revealing private things but in reality b.net would simply not be used to discuss private things anymore. In the worst scenario, when a player under investigation has foolishly decided to write private things, then we do not sacrifice the best process for justice just to respect a right to privacy that they chose to forfeit. Players already kind of deal with that because of streaming. Either a player streams and obviously they know nothing is private or they are aware that the other person could be streaming. There's already awareness and caution about what's said on b.net. LOL? Then why aren't the players providing these if they are so eager to prove their innocence. If I were implicated, I would totally come forth and post all my replays for public scrutinyAnyway, those private things are ALREADY being read by strangers. It's just a matter of how many strangers are reading them. That can make a big difference, but let's not act like it's harmless that Blizzard invades this "privacy" themselves already. So when you say private things should remain private... well, that's already not the case. And if there is some erroneous thinking or behavior or incompetence or unfairness coming from the Blizzard esports team, then the fact that THEY get access to this privileged information and no one else does amplifies these issues. There are downsides to private information becoming public but there are also some things that are even worse about private information being revealed to the wrong people. Can't tell if you are being serious or just trolling here. Blizzard can't be invading privacy on their own property. Did you even read the ToS? The players don't own anything except for a license to play. Those conversations, also, is not public domain. You can say whatever, but the foundation of your argument is false edit: The other thing is that a player could go ahead and confess and accept punishment privately so nothing but the outline of the case goes public. The disturbing thing about this case was that players were not even contacted about it before being given their punishments. At the very least, if a player wants to fight the case with an appeal to the public to review Blizzard esports team work, then that should be possible before a sentencing. Or if not the public, then some other group. Some third party at least to make the chance of a fair and good decision to increase. But there's no point to one of the players doing it now in this case. They gain nothing from it. This ain't a circus. It's like the cheating bans, do you honestly want Blizzard to contact each of the 20000 account holders and ask them to if they actually cheated and want to appeal? yeah........ think about it
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