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On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away.
It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
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France12904 Posts
On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh?
Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D.
Okay :o.
Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
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there goes Blizzard, destroying the SC2 scene further and further.. next year we will have 2k viewers for GSL if this shit continues
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On April 15 2016 16:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 16:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time. One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing.
Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post :
On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D. Okay :o. Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on.
As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
Source
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 15 2016 19:08 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 16:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 15 2016 16:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time. One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing. Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post : Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D. Okay :o. Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on. As for the legal stuff, Show nested quote +
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
Source
The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved.
As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things.
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On April 15 2016 19:12 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 19:08 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2016 16:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 15 2016 16:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time. One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing. Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post : On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D. Okay :o. Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on. As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
Source The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved. As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things.
Okay let's check the differences clearly :
=> Lost a game on purpose during a competition : check for both
=> Happened in the main event, on stage, in front of cameras vs happened on ladder (ladder qualifier yes, but ladder nonetheless)
=> Receiving money from criminals to do it (and possibly being involved with a wide criminal scene) vs doing it as a favor for a friend
=> Doing it in a premeditated, artful way vs doing it on the spot
=> Knowing that the sentences were really harsh, based on previous examples, vs having knowledge of the rules less than two days in advance (!!!), as the rules were released on the 7th of April while the matches occured on April 8th. Additionally, the rulebook states a list of sentences, without specifying which kind of sentence can be applied to which offense - which is pretty damn stupid, there is a reason Penal codes don't work like that.
=> Doing stuff involving an actual judiciary court (!) vs doing stuff that doesn't, which basically amounts to being a criminal vs not being one
=> Being subjected to an actual investigation by serious professionals regarded as widely competent vs being subjected to an internal investigation by some random videogame company that prides itself of being a tournament organizer as well
So yes, that's clearly the same thing, if you don't count all the differences, just like a dog and a cat are just the same thing if you don't count all the differences.
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I'm not even going to comment on Major, Marinelord or DNS. I'm just going to leave that aside, though I notice that evidence is being concealed which to me does not make Blizzard's ruling more legitimate whatsoever. Again though, I'm going to put that aside as it's not what I want to discuss.
We know account-sharing does occur at the highest level of ladder, but we want to make clear that it is against the End User License Agreement for StarCraft II, and will not be tolerated during ladder competitions run or sponsored by Blizzard Entertainment. Rule-breaking or other malfeasance that occurs on shared accounts will be taken as evidence against all parties with access to the account, regardless of who directly took the action in question. We take this stance to prevent pro-level players from ranking up accounts and then distributing them to third parties to manipulate the standings.
Blizzard Entertainment will continue to monitor all esports competitions, especially ones we sponsor or run directly. As a core part of the StarCraft II experience, we take behavior on the ladder very seriously. We reserve the right to escalate our responses to these issues in order to discourage future ladder manipulation. Ladder-integration into the World Championship Series this year has had many positive effects for viewers and players alike, but in order to keep the ladder as a method of qualification, we must remain vigilant against unfair manipulation.
In bold is what concerns me. First off, account sharing at the top end of the ladder is done regularly and it's done by Korean pro gamers in particular (who live in game houses anyway). Is Blizzard ever going to start screwing around with Korean pro gamers? I'm not sure, but Blizzard shows with these statements that they sure as hell feel entitled to do so.
Anyway, second point is that Blizzard is going to start believing that the ladder experience should be the most fucking amazing thing ever, etc. Does this mean that they're going to start banning accounts which rage-quit, cheese unsuccessfully, get cheesed, have technical or personal life issues (pizza, phone, etc.), and so on?
My account personally cost me a fucking €140, which is incredibly fucking expensive. I've paid more for Starcraft 2 than I've probably invested in other games entirely. Accounts are super expensive. Are they're going to get banned because people don't take the ladder as seriously as they do proleague? Whether it's shitty platinum players like me, or professional players, I do not think that sanctions should be carried out over something so stupidly trivial. Especially the "we're entitled to escalate our response", jesus Blizzard can you be any more arrogant?
I'm just not a fan of what Blizzard is doing and I'm finding this quite concerning.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
People should not win-trade in ladder qualifiers for WCS. People should not share accounts when there are ladder qualifiers for WCS. Blizzard sent this message in a way that "foreign pros" would notice and understand. Good job.
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On April 15 2016 18:51 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away. It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry.
we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception.
On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost.
the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
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I was expecting and hoping for harsher punishment but this seems fair enough. I'd imagine there was probably a 4th and 5th involved as well that barely skated by. Wouldn't be surprised if some finger pointing by the involved results from this.
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The problem here is that Blizzard themselves created a system that could easily be abused (through what is called perserve incentives in economics theory), in which a player can potentially be already qualified AND still competing OR can't even qualify AND still competing.
If you want to keep it a ladder qualification, there are definitely ways to improve the system (though no one system will be perfect).
The idea is to create a system where a) players that already qualified cannot compete (unless they REALLY hide) b) only players that can qualify can compete
These two rules ensure that every player still involved should have something at stake personnally. This means no more "national qualifiers" before the ladder/mini-tour (how stupid was this idea anyway?) and no more prizepool for any of these qualifications (hint for blizzard: transfer this prizepool towards the prizepool of the actual tournament and divide it amongst players, this essentially means it's the same when it comes to money for ppl who qualified).
This goes hand in hand with creating a CLOSED "GM" clone for the duration of the ladder, where only the invited accounts (basically anyone in GM that is not a barcode) are included, and they can ONLY play against one another (hint for blizzard: you already did that 10 years ago with the closed TFT ladder, I guess the technology "just isn't here yet?").
Now this alone should prevent many problems, but here is another idea to add to that. Say you want 16 players. Make this closed ladder last 8 days, and decide that the top2 players at the end of each day are through. Here, look, no more already qualified marinelord vs dns matches, no more smurfs, barcodes, shared accounts and all in all that system seems quite easy to put in place? besides the cherry picking of the players at first (which really only has to be done once, the next list can just be refreshed easily), all you need to do is 1°) make a closed ladder 2°) cut off 2 players each day.
Hope this is interesting to someone...
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On April 15 2016 18:44 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 07:05 ddayzy wrote:On April 15 2016 06:55 PPN wrote:On April 15 2016 06:46 ddayzy wrote:On April 15 2016 06:43 PPN wrote:
This is what Blizzard should have written first before taking any actions. Better late than never I guess but what a shameful series of events.
Now as for the content of the statement itself, I'm still not sold. Blizzard refusing to publish evidence and players staying silent or still claiming innocence, not sure who I should trust. The mess has yet to be cleaned up. Why is it shameful? Some participants of a tournament was found by the organizors to be in breach of their regulations and got punished. Why do you have the right to any information at all besides that? Two out of three have admited to the charge so in the absolute worst case scenario they got it 66,6% right. Why do you have to word it in "right"? So if it's not their obligation I should not ask them to do what I think is the right way to do things? I am their fan and their customer. I don't like the methods they used ie. shooting first and asking questions later and being vague as hell in their statement. I have every right to tell it to their face. I have no clue why you are so antagonistic. If you don't like my view, get lost man. P.S.: no word about Bly. I nearly forgot. Why is it "right" for them to share information with you? You are not the judge on this case, what you think is frankly irrelevant. They conducted a investegation, found the evidence sufficient to punish the players in question and did so. Why do you think you have right to any information besides that? They were'nt "shoot first and asking questions later". They conducted a investegation, came to a conclusion and acted on that conclusion. You are not "telling it to their face", you are on a internet forum demanding information to a investegation you are not a part of. They did shoot first and ask questions later. Major was not even contacted beforehand either for questions or even for being notified about the punishement. They were unlikely done with investigating too when they took actions otherwise there is no reason it would take them a week to write a full statement. They even stated that the investigation was "ongoing" and used a very strong and meaningful word "match-fixing". The way Blizzard handled the case regardless of whether you agree with their conclusion is so full of bullshit, I don't know how this is defendable. Sure Major's reputation is pretty well known but this is not enough to condamn him. I have no reason to believe Blizzard either with so many signs of screw up, especially when Major is the only convicted while others get out with nothing or just a warning. Until proven wrong by overwhelming evidence, I am not buying their side of the story because I believe in presumption of innocence. As if wintrading can happen alone, and if leaving game is unfair, then anyone leaving game is suspicious and should be investigated. Their ruling is vague and credibility on this case thin as hell. I am on an Internet forum that is read by Blizzard employees as shown multiple times in the past. So yeah I am telling to their face, the only public way to be more direct would be to write an email to them. And again how about you stop antagonizing people who ask for transparency? God forbids me for thinking something is wrong and asking for that. I disagree with you and Blizzard's way on this case, I'm entitled to my opinion and the ability to voice it, get off people's back trying to make them think otherwise.
They conducted an investigation, came to a conclusion and handed out a punishment. That is the order it was done in and it is the order it should be done in. Contacting Major, if you believe him when he says they didn't, is not needed if they have sufficient evidence and it is not needed to come to a conclusion. So why woul that be required of them?
You do realize it is entirely possible to conclude that one person is guilty while contuing the investigantion into toher players? They were not looking only into Major but into other players as well.
How is it not defensible? What did they do wrong?
Major is not the only one who got convicted, SnD and MrineLord was as well, and they both admited it. So we know Blizzard was right.
They don't have to prove anything to you. You are not the judge in this case, and I'm not sure why you think this should be a trial by public opinion? Why do you think Blizzard needs to answer to you befor taking actions? Are you somehow in charge of Blizzards decisions.
How is the credibility thin? Two of the three people convicted admited it and Major himself admited to leaving games and sharing a account involved in match fixing.
Please, you are offended by someone disagreeing with you? If you can't handle that, don't poste on a public forum.
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On April 15 2016 21:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 18:51 PPN wrote:On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away. It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry. we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception. Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost. the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports.
how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run?
that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
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On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 05:09 Ej_ wrote:On April 15 2016 05:06 NonY wrote:
Is this a private investigation? Show the evidence rofl. Why does this have no details? I want to see the records myself, not what some person I have no reason to trust believes the records indicate. it's their competition, organized by them in their game, I don't think the mob has any authority here Just the authority to stop playing and watching. The players could also theoretically sue, though that's obviously not gonna happen. The ONLY way to get away with something like this (not having a single person's name even signed to it, and not reporting the full evidence and details and arguments and conclusions) is if it's from an EXTREMELY reputable source. The Blizz esports team is definitely not that (no offense to them, but I'm talking like highly educated and experienced people with decades of their work made public and scrutinized and they are deemed extremely competent and fair). Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Well, If I was blizzard Id know that I could get into a poisonous debate with people who would blindly defend the players.
I dont exactly trust Blizzard about this (Diablo 2 Bots still run well, and I personally Lost one character because in a trade I got a dupped item, so Im unsure they are perfect at this), but then again, there is no one out there that will have more information than blizzard itself... so... whos opinion are you going to take about this when you are the one with most info?
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On April 15 2016 22:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 21:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 15 2016 18:51 PPN wrote:On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away. It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry. we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception. On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost. the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports. how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run? that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
They will probably do that soon. The reason Blizzard wanted to start SC2 as a "e-sport" was because they saw Kespa making a profit on BW in korea.
Unfortunately, blizzard didnt do its homework and tried to force SC2 into an "e-sport", and its been working less and less.
They are now trying desperate attempts at keeping their grip on the SC2 scene and it is only backfiring so far.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On April 15 2016 22:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 21:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 15 2016 18:51 PPN wrote:On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away. It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry. we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception. On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost. the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports. how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run? that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
You do realise that without Blizzard support, SC2 dies as a competitive game?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 15 2016 19:39 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 19:12 deacon.frost wrote:On April 15 2016 19:08 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2016 16:53 deacon.frost wrote:On April 15 2016 16:37 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Hmm I think the ones who want to see absurdly heavy punishments are roughly the same in both cases. Also, both cases cannot really be compared since one involves the actual judiciary system while the other is just Blizzard being lawmaker and judge at the same time. One was a bigger fraud with bribes and stuff. This is the exactly same thing without any money involved(probably). Also I am not sure if Europe has even charges that could follow match fixing. Exactly the same thing? Wtf? See Poopi's post : On April 15 2016 18:52 Poopi wrote:On April 15 2016 15:44 Daswollvieh wrote:
How come that when someone breaks rules in Korea they should be flayed in the streets and when someone does in Europe punishment is too harsh? Are you seriously comparing : a) losing on purpose or fixing game length or fixing whatever in official proleague and/or GSL/SSL matches, receiving in exchange various sums of money from Korean criminals, so that said criminals can bet on various things ; to b) giving 20 or so ladder points to help a friend in a very badly designed ladder qualification system? :D. Okay :o. Truth be told the only 'bad' thing that MLorD and DnS did was not being cautious enough and getting caught in the process, because it would be foolish not to abuse such a bad qualification system, at least to show Blizzard that they should not have used this and should not use this from now on. As for the legal stuff,
The European legal landscape is not uniform; whilst some countries focus on general offences of corruption or fraud, others have implemented specific sport offences to cope with match-fixing -contained either in their criminal codes (Bulgaria, Spain), sports laws (Cyprus, Poland, Greece) or special criminal laws (Italy, Malta, Portugal).[2] In the UK, betting related match-fixing episodes may be punished under the offence of cheating at gambling. Case law is rare. Few court decisions– applying either general or specific offences- have been identified through the research.[3]
Source The ladder is a part of that competition at that day thus they were losing on purpose in a competition. The only difference is that it wasn't the main event and no money was involved. As I said, I don't know whether EU tried to unify this as they tried to unify other things. Okay let's check the differences clearly : => Lost a game on purpose during a competition : check for both => Happened in the main event, on stage, in front of cameras vs happened on ladder (ladder qualifier yes, but ladder nonetheless) => Receiving money from criminals to do it (and possibly being involved with a wide criminal scene) vs doing it as a favor for a friend => Doing it in a premeditated, artful way vs doing it on the spot => Knowing that the sentences were really harsh, based on previous examples, vs having knowledge of the rules less than two days in advance (!!!), as the rules were released on the 7th of April while the matches occured on April 8th. Additionally, the rulebook states a list of sentences, without specifying which kind of sentence can be applied to which offense - which is pretty damn stupid, there is a reason Penal codes don't work like that. => Doing stuff involving an actual judiciary court (!) vs doing stuff that doesn't, which basically amounts to being a criminal vs not being one => Being subjected to an actual investigation by serious professionals regarded as widely competent vs being subjected to an internal investigation by some random videogame company that prides itself of being a tournament organizer as well So yes, that's clearly the same thing, if you don't count all the differences, just like a dog and a cat are just the same thing if you don't count all the differences.
The deed itself is the same. Since you believe otherwise then I won't try to persuade you since I won't and you won't persuade me either. OUr views are different and that;s the it. So, nice reading, but no.
Also, is France so different that they haven't though about wintrading as a "nono, that's bad" thing? I am probably really somewhat different. And they say I am morally corrupted xD
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On April 15 2016 22:58 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 22:47 Incognoto wrote:On April 15 2016 21:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 15 2016 18:51 PPN wrote:On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away. It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry. we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception. On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost. the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports. how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run? that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene You do realise that without Blizzard support, SC2 dies as a competitive game?
I definitely see some credit in that argument, but I'm not sure I agree with it.
Does the Korean scene really need Blizzard subsidies to continue hosting the GSL? Is Proleague, SSL, GSL and so on not profitable in themselves? Dreamhack and IEMs aren't making money? Think about Brood War and how much Blizzard helped Korean Brood War.
If the game can't sustain a competitive scene without developer life-support, then perhaps the developers should look into re-adjusting the game design itself in order to attract more players.
The people playing the game are the life-blood of any game. Most people who watch any game, whether it's LoL, Dota, Starcraft or CS:GO will not bother watching if they don't play it (or have at least played extensively in the past).
Perhaps the actually good approach is "game design first", then you have lots of players. When you have lots of players, you naturally have lots of viewers.
Pumping money into the competitive scene without first making a popular game is doing things the wrong way around. It's possible that Blizzard has designed Starcraft as an esport before they designed a fun game.
If that's the case, then you are right and Starcraft is going to experience some reduced activity in the future.
However, I believe that the game itself is fun enough to play. So you won't get LoL-like numbers of viewers, but you'll still get a solid community behind the game.
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Cya, cheaters ! No place for you in WCS.
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On April 15 2016 22:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 21:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 15 2016 18:51 PPN wrote:On April 15 2016 17:35 Nuclease wrote:On April 15 2016 12:55 Quineotio wrote:On April 15 2016 05:17 NonY wrote:
Why shouldn't they publish the proof? If they're 100% sure they made zero errors and no judgment calls were involved? Personally I want to know how they proved major was lying. What was the evidence that made it conclusive, as opposed to the inconclusive cases that only resulted in warnings?
Why do you deserve to see the proof? Do you think the public are better positioned to make a decision than Blizzard? Should there be a detailed public review of every decision made by Blizzard, or is this a special case? Are you asking for a public trial instead of an internal investigation? If so, how would you conduct this to make sure it's fair? How do you ensure player privacy? Should private chat logs and match history be released to the public whenever anyone is accused of something, or only when "convicted"? If you are releasing private chat logs, how far back do you go - a month? 6 months? If there are confidential, personal elements to the communications between players, should the incriminating parts be cut out and presented out of context (i.e. private sections removed)? If you are censoring private information, who is responsible for the censorship? Or do you feel that you personally should be involved? Yup. The thing is, I agree that more transparency in terms of the evaluation process would make me rest easier on this ruling. However, there's no good way of going about releasing such private information to the general public...you would never expect a court of law to do so unless it were a non-confidential case, and I'm aware that the situation is VERY different from a public court, but it's just not acceptable to release private information such as chat logs and specific account details to the general public.... Can you imagine what Reddit would do with that information? These players don't deserve to have such information lightly given away. It's not a public court and there is no crime. Also releasing data to the general public is tricky but you could ask the parties involved for starters. Major made it pretty obvious that he was not contacted and had actually a hard time contacting Blizzard for inquiry. we have no guarantees that Major is giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. even if he believes he is being truthful it is through the prism of his own biased perception. On April 15 2016 10:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
Did anyone turn Major in? I guess we won't know that, maybe everyone did, but that isn't what Blizzard said. Blizzard just said he was giving away free wins, so they punished him. By the way, this whole thing is made so much easier if Blizzard just doesn't use ladder and has real qualifiers.
Blizzard is donating less and less resources to competitive SC2 so they must use less expensive qualifying methods. the less money you spend the harder it is to catch cheaters. Expect next year's WCS/GSL to have an even larger ladder component because of its low cost. the revenue SC2 generates does not justify increased donations into SC2 esports. how about blizzards stops meddling with starcraft 2 as an esport and just lets tournament organizers do what they want to do? yes? run the events how they would like the events to run? that way we don't need blizzard to meddle with the competitive scene
Blizzard is great at making games and really mediocre at running competitive leagues... i'd like to see them leave. There will still be plenty of shit-storms without them. Its not like Blizzard leaving solves everything.
However, with ATVI making this new eSports division it appears their corporate overlords are moving in the opposite direction.
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