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Becoming God - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
159 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3752 Posts
March 23 2016 11:01 GMT
#81
Flash - man who crushed my inner Jaedong fanboy too many times.
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32746 Posts
March 23 2016 11:36 GMT
#82
Thanks for the article Wax. I will admit I only followed BW cursory back in the day and only knew guys like Boxer, so reminders of why people like Flash are so respected and given the title of God is context I missed out on.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
NDPH_Prodigy
Profile Joined January 2012
Australia35 Posts
March 23 2016 11:44 GMT
#83
That was a great read.
NSW
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
March 23 2016 12:06 GMT
#84
This was awesome. Feeling so old right now, because I remember baby Flash in his first OSL run
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
March 23 2016 12:39 GMT
#85
what a pleasure to read this article
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
JonnySC2
Profile Joined December 2015
Germany119 Posts
March 23 2016 15:11 GMT
#86
Always a pleasure to read articles by Waxangel. Also really nice to learn something more about the Broodwar history..
SKT best KT
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
March 23 2016 16:23 GMT
#87
On March 23 2016 10:42 Orr wrote:
Watching the live stream of him finally winning that elusive individual title at IEM Toronto was so satisfying. But my favorite SC2 memory of him by far (staying up till an ungodly hour as I always do to watch PL GF) was crushing a heavily favored, and on fire Parting (w/ the greatest PvT of all-time) in the pivotal and ultra-hyped G2 of the 2014 Proleague Grand Finals. He truly channeled his BW form for that one game. Kicking the soccer ball far into the crowd in celebration, and later holding the trophy high aloft with his teammates behind paying respect to their great leader, while the legions in attendance chanted his name, and his mother and father were crying on camera. Watching that was absolutely magical.


The feels!!! (And I'm not even a BW fan!)

Hopefully Flash decides to return to KT as a coach. Hopefully we can witness another magical moment like this, and get another chapter from Waxangel on Flash's career
FaCE_1
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Canada6183 Posts
March 23 2016 18:28 GMT
#88
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years
n_n
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19307 Posts
March 23 2016 18:36 GMT
#89
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
TrueRedemption
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States313 Posts
March 23 2016 18:39 GMT
#90
Great article through and through =)
Writer
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
March 23 2016 18:41 GMT
#91
On March 24 2016 03:36 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.

the forced switch should have never happened either, but the moneys took over
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66358 Posts
March 23 2016 19:14 GMT
#92
omg that was such a nostalgic piece to read... thanks wax

missing the good ol' days.
POGGERS
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12908 Posts
March 23 2016 19:28 GMT
#93
On March 24 2016 03:36 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.

Wouldn't. have SC2.protoss fit him tho?
WriterMaru
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19307 Posts
March 23 2016 19:49 GMT
#94
On March 24 2016 04:28 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 03:36 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.

Wouldn't. have SC2.protoss fit him tho?

That's a reasonable thought if you take how Classic changing to protoss impacted him. I think for someone who achieved a mastery of brood war though, that there were a ton of mechanical differences that worked against his habits. Bisu suffered this too. His micro control may be the best of any RTS player ever, but the faster battle pace of SC2 and micro capabilities in those battles worked against him.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-23 19:59:32
March 23 2016 19:53 GMT
#95
On March 24 2016 04:49 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 04:28 Poopi wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:36 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.

Wouldn't. have SC2.protoss fit him tho?

That's a reasonable thought if you take how Classic changing to protoss impacted him. I think for someone who achieved a mastery of brood war though, that there were a ton of mechanical differences that worked against his habits. Bisu suffered this too. His micro control may be the best of any RTS player ever, but the faster battle pace of SC2 and micro capabilities in those battles worked against him.


He chose the wrong race. He should have played Terran.

Same thing with Flash, he should have played Protoss.

Just my own observations based on the games I've seen from both BW and SC2 of them both. Though I haven't watched enough of Flash's old BW games and a strong enough sense of the meta to understand why he was so much more successful with his greedy style, but that certainly wouldn't work in SC2.

That said, those race changes wouldn't have guaranteed success for either of them, especially Bisu who had no interest for the game or the scene. Flash's biggest weaknesses in SC2 wouldn't have been covered by playing Protoss.
Moderator
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
March 23 2016 21:31 GMT
#96
As much as I respect, yes, revere Flash. He is not the greatest StarCraft: Brood War player of all time. Not even Jaedong is.

It is JulyZerg.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Zess
Profile Joined July 2012
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
March 23 2016 23:20 GMT
#97
Thanks for the read!
Flash's proleague performances with KT exposed some unreal boosted fraud animals
Administrator@TL_Zess
| (• ◡•)|八 (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
TheAnarchy
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1105 Posts
March 24 2016 00:55 GMT
#98
Flash is overated he dominated bw in his decline. Bw golden era was in 2004-2007 (after that servers were dead wcgtour, iccup, gaema, even west and east servers).
Nada and savior are the true and only gods after them bw died.
That time is coincident with the golden era of non koreans (draco, testie, mondi, assem, pj, etc). I believe that after those players retired a third level player like szisky became the best player in the world.
Orr
Profile Joined February 2014
United States168 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-24 04:03:46
March 24 2016 03:23 GMT
#99
On March 24 2016 04:53 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 04:49 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 24 2016 04:28 Poopi wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:36 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.

Wouldn't. have SC2.protoss fit him tho?

That's a reasonable thought if you take how Classic changing to protoss impacted him. I think for someone who achieved a mastery of brood war though, that there were a ton of mechanical differences that worked against his habits. Bisu suffered this too. His micro control may be the best of any RTS player ever, but the faster battle pace of SC2 and micro capabilities in those battles worked against him.



Just my own observations based on the games I've seen from both BW and SC2 of them both. Though I haven't watched enough of Flash's old BW games and a strong enough sense of the meta to understand why he was so much more successful with his greedy style, but that certainly wouldn't work in SC2.


I watched Flash throughout his prime when he transcended to God tier. Yes, his micro was incredible, but I never thought that was what separated him from the other greats (like others here are saying).

His 'star-sense' as it was frequently termed back then was what made him the GOAT. The meta during his reign was very mature, and since BW didn't have balance updates/patches, you were stuck with what you had (maps did their best to fix obvious unit design issues, but there were still clear flaws). As BW became increasingly figured out during the golden years where Flash, Jaedong, and the other greats pushed the basic game design (of something conceived in the late 90's) to the absolute max of human ability, there were relatively few viable strategies and the meta was understood almost down to a science at the highest level.

Flash had incredible micro (notably in his constant mech ball control and positioning of tank lines) coupled w/ amazing nonstop macro. But neither was flawless. And wasn't good enough from pure mechanics alone to accomplish anywhere near what he did. He did perfect the fast two-base, into turtling till you secure a third, while getting quick double armory and researching dual vehicle weapon upgrades, and then moving out w/ the deadly mech ball that hits right when 2/2 upgrades come online (lots of tanks supported by vultures laying mine fields, w/ typically limited goliaths for anti-air).

But the key to his immortality lay in possessing that singular extra sense, where he seemed to always know exactly what his opponent was doing (even before they did). It was almost as if he was an AI that was playing against itself. He somehow would know exactly where the hidden stacked lurkers on hold command would be, and at the last second right before having all his marines sliced up, would split and stim in while scanning. When many tried to cheese him or do crazy builds hoping for a cheap win, he would sniff it out like a bloodhound hot on the scent and send the scv scout to places on the map it would never otherwise go. Flash just had an eerie ability to see moves before they materialized.

BW was a far more technically challenging game than SC2, but there were less variables. One of the greatest things about SC2 is the fundamental game design (skewed towards amateurs), w/ all the crazy unit options/strategies/maps that give anyone a fighting chance to beat someone far better in a single game or short series. BW at its core didn't offer that constant unpredictability, and Flash was able to construct a play-style and general build that all but eliminated the minute possibilities of losing early.

As far as I could tell, Flash simply understood the game on a deeper, more intuitive level than anyone else. At the end of the day, Flash at his best, was better at Starcraft than I've ever seen anyone else at anything. Which is why a non-religious, non-believer like myself, will always consider him God.

Flash I Jaedong I herO I Best I Maru I Rogue
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1713 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-24 12:59:41
March 24 2016 12:51 GMT
#100
On March 24 2016 12:23 Orr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 04:53 stuchiu wrote:
On March 24 2016 04:49 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 24 2016 04:28 Poopi wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:36 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 24 2016 03:28 FaCE_1 wrote:
nice read.

I whish SC2 would be delay 1 or 2 more years

As a resident BW enthusiast, I was actually extremely excited for SC2. I thought it came at the right time and had great potential in the earliest previews. Lots of crazy cool ideas at alpha level too. It just didn't capture the core of BW enough to make a player like Flash and what he excelled at possible in SC2. Both are great separately, I just wish the games had more in common then lore. Flash, imo, should have never left BW after seeing the massive difference in games.

Wouldn't. have SC2.protoss fit him tho?

That's a reasonable thought if you take how Classic changing to protoss impacted him. I think for someone who achieved a mastery of brood war though, that there were a ton of mechanical differences that worked against his habits. Bisu suffered this too. His micro control may be the best of any RTS player ever, but the faster battle pace of SC2 and micro capabilities in those battles worked against him.



Just my own observations based on the games I've seen from both BW and SC2 of them both. Though I haven't watched enough of Flash's old BW games and a strong enough sense of the meta to understand why he was so much more successful with his greedy style, but that certainly wouldn't work in SC2.


I watched Flash throughout his prime when he transcended to God tier. Yes, his micro was incredible, but I never thought that was what separated him from the other greats (like others here are saying).

His 'star-sense' as it was frequently termed back then was what made him the GOAT. The meta during his reign was very mature, and since BW didn't have balance updates/patches, you were stuck with what you had (maps did their best to fix obvious unit design issues, but there were still clear flaws). As BW became increasingly figured out during the golden years where Flash, Jaedong, and the other greats pushed the basic game design (of something conceived in the late 90's) to the absolute max of human ability, there were relatively few viable strategies and the meta was understood almost down to a science at the highest level.

Flash had incredible micro (notably in his constant mech ball control and positioning of tank lines) coupled w/ amazing nonstop macro. But neither was flawless. And wasn't good enough from pure mechanics alone to accomplish anywhere near what he did. He did perfect the fast two-base, into turtling till you secure a third, while getting quick double armory and researching dual vehicle weapon upgrades, and then moving out w/ the deadly mech ball that hits right when 2/2 upgrades come online (lots of tanks supported by vultures laying mine fields, w/ typically limited goliaths for anti-air).

But the key to his immortality lay in possessing that singular extra sense, where he seemed to always know exactly what his opponent was doing (even before they did). It was almost as if he was an AI that was playing against itself. He somehow would know exactly where the hidden stacked lurkers on hold command would be, and at the last second right before having all his marines sliced up, would split and stim in while scanning. When many tried to cheese him or do crazy builds hoping for a cheap win, he would sniff it out like a bloodhound hot on the scent and send the scv scout to places on the map it would never otherwise go. Flash just had an eerie ability to see moves before they materialized.

BW was a far more technically challenging game than SC2, but there were less variables. One of the greatest things about SC2 is the fundamental game design (skewed towards amateurs), w/ all the crazy unit options/strategies/maps that give anyone a fighting chance to beat someone far better in a single game or short series. BW at its core didn't offer that constant unpredictability, and Flash was able to construct a play-style and general build that all but eliminated the minute possibilities of losing early.

As far as I could tell, Flash simply understood the game on a deeper, more intuitive level than anyone else. At the end of the day, Flash at his best, was better at Starcraft than I've ever seen anyone else at anything. Which is why a non-religious, non-believer like myself, will always consider him God.


Very true. Although Flash did have eerily fantastic macro and micro despite his relatively low apm, his star sense really was in certain ways supernatural. Flash was probably the player most jokingly accused of cheating in-game because of how many times he would scout proxies or just flat out guess what his opponent was going for even without seeing anything.
I remember this TvZ game, I think this was the ace match of a PL game, where flash didnt build a turret (cant remember whether he even made an eng bay) but opted for a bunker in his natural even though from his perspective, there was absolutely no indication that his opponent went 2hatch lurks instead of mutas. Someone commented after that if he did that in an iccup game, he wouldve gotten himself banned for hacking.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
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