EPTGreatest HotS Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 3
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
I have an argument why sOs doesn't deserve number one, especially considering your reasoning. Life should be a good number one though, won starleagues, won weekend tournaments. Sure he did only okayish in PL but sOs did only ok (at best) in korean starleagues, which is arguably more important than PL. I don't see why me making a list is mandatory for arguing about yours. It simply isn't. Ok I’ll argue sOs vs Life: sOs won 2 Blizzcons; Life won 1 – advantage sOs Life won 1 GSL; sOs won none – advantage Life Life won IEM Taipei and IEM New York; sOs won IEM Katowice – even Life did poorly in Proleague; sOs tied for first in Proleague wins 2014, superb 2015 Proleague with 2 all kills – advantage sOs Life won 2013 MLG Championship & Dream Hack Bucharest; sOs won Hot6 Cup & 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena – advantage sOs Life 2nd Place Blizzcon, 2x 2nd place DreamHack Winter; sOs 2nd 2013 WCS Season 1, 2nd Red Bull BattleGrounds – advantage Life 2013 GSL – Life Ro16, Ro32; sOs Ro4, Ro32, Ro16 - advantage sOs 2014 GSL – Life Ro4, Ro16; sOs Ro8, Ro32, Ro16 – even 2015 GSL/SSL – Life GSL Ro16, Ro32, SSL Ro4, Ro8, Ro16; sOs GSL Ro4, Ro16, SSL Ro24, Ro 16 – advantage Life This one is really close, they both did remarkably well in nearly all tournaments. The big difference is that Life won a Korean individual league and sOs did not, and sOs was one of the best Proleague players for 2 years in a row while Life was a total dud in Proleauge. Life’s GSL win is more impressive than sOs’s Proleague performance, but only marginally, so it really comes down to whether sOs’s 2nd Blizzcon Championship is enough to put sOs on top. You can debate the relative weight of Blizzcon vs a GSL. To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon. 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than 2014 Blizzcon because top Koreans were adequately represented, and the "foreign" Koreans in 2013 were still in their prime compared to a year later. There are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all the players are giving it their best. But ultimately you have to acknowledge that these 2 players came head to head in the final championship match of Heart of the Swarm, with the claim to being the greatest Heart of the Swarm player at stake. And sOs won. Given how close they were up to this tournament, sOs’s head to head win against Life puts him ahead at #1. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On March 18 2016 13:19 billynasty wrote: I get where peeps are coming from regarding Taeja. However Taeja made a calculated choice to forego the Korean stuff in favor of international events & you'd have to agree he made the right choice, based on how well he did. But I'd have to think that while he was in his prime, he would've done pretty good in the GSL. Just look at present day with LOTV, Taeja is nowhere near his peak skill, & he's finally playing in the GSL & he's what, in the top 16 right now? I think sometimes he doesnt get the respect that he deserves. Taeja has (or had, I haven't seen him recently) an extreme advantage over anyone else in the lategame, his expansion patterns and gameflow are top tier. However in the later rounds of GSL there are usually a few games out of 7 decided by BO wins and metagaming, and having a team and coach to help you prepare is very useful to help snatch those key maps. Taeja's won almost all the games I've seen him play where both players open standard, I'd say he's more skilled than Life but Life is more cunning. | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
Of course, as a fan of sOs I disagree with putting him on rank 7, that seems odd ... he is certainly not number 1, as his victories were quite specific, but including his miracles in proleague, he would belong to number ~3. Life is number 1 and I like it quite a lot. Number 2 probably InnoVatioN? So a proper ranking would be: 1. Life 2. INnoVation 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Maru / herO / TaeJa? | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
In HotS however, I was surprised to find Taeja would be top 5 let alone #2. For 2013-2014, Taeja made up for no good Korean showings by simply doing outstanding abroad. But for 2015, he did just about nothing after making the ro32 for GSL and SSL in s1. To me that's a big of a hole to cover when he's competing against others in the top 10, where most of that level did well not just in Korea but made waves for each year of HotS. Personally, I give Taeja the benefit of the doubt and think he could have done great in the GSL had he gone home in HotS. Then again, the benefit of the doubt only carries you so far. Taeja never actually made good on that assumption. Also, I'm not sure if SPL is given much or any weight here but it really should be notable given not just the level of competition but also because most Koreans on Kespa teams are forced into having that as their priority over foreign events. == IMO: 15. Bomber 14. ByuL 13. Soulkey 12. Polt 11. Classic 10. PartinG 9. Rain 8. herO 7. Taeja 6. soO 5. Maru 4. sOs 3. Zest 2. Bogus 1. Life | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
Also I'm fairly sure FlaSh has the best record of anyone vs Taeja, the #2 HotS player, therefore he should be #1. Thank you. Also how come Tajea has DH Valencia 2012 on his list? Wouldn't that have been WoL? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon GSL has the best Korean players that are playing in Korea at that moment in time. Blizzcon is a collection of champions of the past year, which is usually not an accurate representation of the best players in the world at that moment in time. The WCS split and the rich-get-richer weekend tournaments fuel this even further. GSL has more rounds, and the additional group stages make sure you have to face even more opponents. (more rounds = more skill needed = harder) GSL lasts longer, so you have to be good for a long period of time to stand a chance at winning it, while Blizzcon is a weekend tournament and everything can happen once you are there, just depending on your form. GSL gives players time to prepare for each opponent. This may not make it necessarily harder to win (since both players prepare), but it makes it so that the showcased skill-level in each match is much higher. Getting to blizzcon is hard, no denying. But you cannot rate players based on their tournament success and then value blizzcon as the tournament itself plus the qualification process, since you already valued the qualification process. Blizzcon is just that, that one 4-round tournament. | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased. won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 18 2016 14:34 A_Scarecrow wrote: won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments He won 2. One against soO and one against ByuL. Lost to Soulkey. Beat sOs for the WCS season finals. Dat sneaky edit... even made it into the quote... :D | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On March 18 2016 14:34 A_Scarecrow wrote: won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments Nice edit. Was about to call you out  | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On March 18 2016 14:02 BlackZetsu wrote: Ok I’ll argue sOs vs Life: sOs won 2 Blizzcons; Life won 1 – advantage sOs Life won 1 GSL; sOs won none – advantage Life Life won IEM Taipei and IEM New York; sOs won IEM Katowice – even Life did poorly in Proleague; sOs tied for first in Proleague wins 2014, superb 2015 Proleague with 2 all kills – advantage sOs Life won 2013 MLG Championship & Dream Hack Bucharest; sOs won Hot6 Cup & 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena – advantage sOs Life 2nd Place Blizzcon, 2x 2nd place DreamHack Winter; sOs 2nd 2013 WCS Season 1, 2nd Red Bull BattleGrounds – advantage Life 2013 GSL – Life Ro16, Ro32; sOs Ro4, Ro32, Ro16 - advantage sOs 2014 GSL – Life Ro4, Ro16; sOs Ro8, Ro32, Ro16 – even 2015 GSL/SSL – Life GSL Ro16, Ro32, SSL Ro4, Ro8, Ro16; sOs GSL Ro4, Ro16, SSL Ro24, Ro 16 – advantage Life This one is really close, they both did remarkably well in nearly all tournaments. The big difference is that Life won a Korean individual league and sOs did not, and sOs was one of the best Proleague players for 2 years in a row while Life was a total dud in Proleauge. Life’s GSL win is more impressive than sOs’s Proleague performance, but only marginally, so it really comes down to whether sOs’s 2nd Blizzcon Championship is enough to put sOs on top. You can debate the relative weight of Blizzcon vs a GSL. To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon. 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than 2014 Blizzcon because top Koreans were adequately represented, and the "foreign" Koreans in 2013 were still in their prime compared to a year later. There are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all the players are giving it their best. But ultimately you have to acknowledge that these 2 players came head to head in the final championship match of Heart of the Swarm, with the claim to being the greatest Heart of the Swarm player at stake. And sOs won. Given how close they were up to this tournament, sOs’s head to head win against Life puts him ahead at #1. Well, life's teamleague performances that apparently does not seem to factor in this analysis may make this comparison less close. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On March 18 2016 14:32 Big J wrote: GSL has the best Korean players that are playing in Korea at that moment in time. Blizzcon is a collection of champions of the past year, which is usually not an accurate representation of the best players in the world at that moment in time. The WCS split and the rich-get-richer weekend tournaments fuel this even further. GSL has more rounds, and the additional group stages make sure you have to face even more opponents. (more rounds = more skill needed = harder) GSL lasts longer, so you have to be good for a long period of time to stand a chance at winning it, while Blizzcon is a weekend tournament and everything can happen once you are there, just depending on your form. GSL gives players time to prepare for each opponent. This may not make it necessarily harder to win (since both players prepare), but it makes it so that the showcased skill-level in each match is much higher. Getting to blizzcon is hard, no denying. But you cannot rate players based on their tournament success and then value blizzcon as the tournament itself plus the qualification process, since you already valued the qualification process. Blizzcon is just that, that one 4-round tournament. Yes, GSL takes longer, which is exactly why Blizzcon is a different kind of tournament where improvisational skills and constant ways to surprise your opponent work in Blizzcon. Plus, Blizzcon is a super large stage where only the one with heaviest balls do not falter. I mean classic lost of Life's ling rush. Also, funny enough, it's at blizzcon where we see the most weird and risky/weird builds than at gsl where you have more time to prepare. Maybe Blizzcon actually does have more prestige than gsl where players use their hidden cards that they have been saving more a year. Sorry about the babbling. I guess the point I want to make is that GSL is not really more prestigeous than Blizzcon. They are different kinds of tournaments plus Blizzcon has more hype and bigger stage with only no coach (or very few instances) being there to soothe the player that makes blizzcon truer test to a player's champion qualities. | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
i always forget about the soo 1 | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
As a rule of thumb when counting GSL championships: If you are not sure about the number and there is no win over soO in it yet, just add 1 more title.  | ||
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calh
537 Posts
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Soulshanked
1 Post
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TheDougler
Canada8309 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 18 2016 15:06 calh wrote: It's happened on TL many times that people cry out that Taeja is ranked too high, while the writer claims to have used an objective metric. IMO this pattern mostly boils down to a simple fact: the Premier tournament list in TL is too large. A large fraction of tournaments in the list look tier 2 at best compared to an OSL or a GSL. Until the Premiers get sorted out properly, this will just happen again and again. stuchiu has been very open about saying he does value tournaments differently based on the players participating and other factors. Apart from the Taeja case, I think it is pretty clear that good GSL/OSL runs are one of the main criteria. All the players with weaker/no GSL stats except for sOs and Taeja that made the list are found at the bottom of those top 15. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On March 18 2016 15:11 Soulshanked wrote: Am I missing something or is INnoVation on this list twice? He is listed at 9th and than again at 3rd. The #9 is the Greatest of all time list. Including WoL. On March 18 2016 15:15 TheDougler wrote: I have to agree that sOs seems too high and Taeja too low. But to be honest, if Taeja gets far in this GSL, then I think it won't be because he's improved a ton, but he'll just be reminding us how good he is. To that end, he has an opportunity to add a lot of credibility to this article, even if it's about HoTS. I think you meant sOs too low and Taeja too high? Unless you think Taeja should be GOAT and sOs off the list or something crazy | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
In general his korean starleague results aren't THAT impressive either tbh. (still better than sOs though ) Really hard to make such a list hehe, i guess i have to come up with some kind of point based system, i think that is the fairest solution overall (i don't like to look at the paths each player had to go through tournaments and value his opponents 'manually' because there are simply too many variables to get that right imo) If we simply assume that easier/harder opponents in the same region balance each other out somewhat during multiple tournaments, the result itself (ro16/ro8/whatever) is good enough and probably more accurate too?! Obviously the point system is subjective though, mine will be biased towards korean starleagues/tournaments i feel like, haha. | ||
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