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Update from DK
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20420494720#1
Lerilak Crest
As many of you guys have suggested this last week, we also agree that replacing the Rock Towers at the third base with Destructible Rocks is a solid suggestion. It would still keep the rush heavy nature of this map, while making the balance much better due to players having to focus mostly on the one choke point in the earliest stages of the game.
Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases.
Central Protocol
Feedback on this map was the most intriguing to us. We received extreme feedback along the lines of, "There's no change that can make the map better." We also received feedback going through the exact specifics of what makes this map difficult on a per map basis with detailed tuning suggestions that target those issues specifically. We were very impressed by the level of analysis and thought process that went through this type of feedback. Thank you so much.
The suggestions for this map boil down to two solutions: Disabling vertical spawn locations and removing the back door rocks.
Oh and conclusion is important too :
Please keep in mind that although none of these proposed changes are 100% final yet, we would really love to move quickly on them. Let's discuss these specific changes, call out other absolutely needed changes if there are any others, and nail down on the best direction for these maps. Thank you for your feedback.
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Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases.
Creative :O
Edit:
I think this might spark up some interesting 2 base allins, which isn't really that prevalent at the moment in LotV. It's mostly from 3 bases.
My suggestion was to place Rocks on the two closeby Gold Bases.
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On February 02 2016 09:52 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases. Creative :O Edit: I think this might spark up some interesting 2 base allins, which isn't really that prevalent at the moment in LotV. It's mostly from 3 bases. My suggestion was to place Rocks on the two closeby Gold Bases.
My suggestion was to place Watchtowers on the two gold bases.
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On February 02 2016 09:52 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases. Creative :O Edit: I think this might spark up some interesting 2 base allins, which isn't really that prevalent at the moment in LotV. It's mostly from 3 bases. My suggestion was to place Rocks on the two closeby Gold Bases.
I was thinking about golden naturals myself for the map competition, I wouldn't be surprised if some are submitted.
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Good to hear they are busy on getting the maps better. Would be nice to see the GSL maps as well, but i have no idea if those are any good.
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A golden natural is hilarious. I am for.
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I'm not sure I like the natural expansion being gold minerals solution. The map definitely needs some change but I feel like you're going from one extreme to another. I feel like you're going from "zerg can too easily take a gold while the other race can't" to the reverse.
It feels like its much easier for Terran/Protoss to pressure a zerg's natural than the other way around, meaning that while both players will have access to the gold it will be much easier for Terran/Protoss to punish a zerg at their natural than the other way around. This is all assuming that the closer to the main gold base is the one that becomes normal. I think I'd like to see the farther away gold be a normal base so zergs can't almost instantly take 2 golds
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since there was discussion about criticism on feedback and communication now the community gets buttered to hear "solid" and "brilliant"...
predictable
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Thanks Gwavajuice for posting it here, here are my proposals for Prion and Central Protocol
Prion Terraces
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lOuFmcY.jpg) Changed the Natural for the forward 3rd
If they want to swap the Bases the best way I would go around it, it would be to swap the near 3rd with the natural instead of what would be 4th with the natural, because in ZvP Zerg would have easy access to the 2 gold bases if the Z goes for a quick 3 hatch while the toss player will stay with a single gold base, and given the high extra income given by gold bases in low worker scenarios, leaving the frontal base as a third would only increase the income differential between the two races which atm is already problematic on the map (the reason for this change).
PvT is also a problematic MU in the map, and usually before this change P player would take the frontal 3rd base compared to the "fourth", with this change you are creating a new dynamic in the map where players can create new strategies that allow require them to stretch a bit more and take the far away 4th and gain the extra income from it which would otherwise not happen.
As a nail in the coffin for the idea of swapping the natural for the near 3rd we also have the max worker efficiency as a cap which for gold bases is 12, this means that for players to efficiently take 3 bases they require to have around 40 workers as a minimum, and that's a threshold of income enough for some pretty nasty timing pushes.
Central Protocol
Option A: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WeueQKY.jpg) ♦ Reduced the size of the ramps to 1x, not a necessity, but it helps a bit. ♦ Moved the rocks from the far away ramps to the Natural's ramp. ♦ Slightly rotated & moved the mineral in the main base to account for the new entrance to the main (not a necessity either, but it also helps).
Option B: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/htHViTU.jpg) Same as before, but here I also lowered the entire natural base because of possible issues with the rocks having too few HP to stop big armies and the defensive player needs a second choke point to aid himself agaisnt enemy armies attacking is natural.
Change the backdoor into giving the players a third base, with this change the map will still have issues, and given the layout of central protocol there are no fixes to that without things like half bases or rocks with extra HP, which on their own could fairly easily solve the issues of the map but I digress . With these changes the map flow would be quite altered, but because the map was conceived with a backdoor in mind there are no other heavier changes needed (such as moving or splitting bases), yet there still would be other issues like the difference between the attacker and defender distances when the defender is trying to take his 3rd, and the map would need to lose the horizontal spawn capabilities.
There are other ideas I have flying around, but the issue is that I don't know how much are they willing to change the map, I could fairly easy do things like fix the flow/disntace to the third by adding a set of half bases, or strengthen the problems with the backdoors by reducing the size of the ramp that's placed there, or even increase the HP of the rocks to more than just 2000, but my main problem as I said, I simply don't know how much do they want to change the map, and I'm hard pressed by time already with their submission contest as it is.
If Blizzard folk wanna contact me or other mapmakers so we could help them, you guys know where to easily find us.
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I can see a lot of habitation station style gangnam terran on prion terraces. Fun times are here again.
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If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.
I think the solution for Prion is indeed interesting, yet, obviously risky too. Especially since the ramp is so incredibly easy to wall off with only 2 3x3 buildings. (e.g. in the reaper rushes 2 barracks do the trick)
I think it would be wise to increase the size of the natural ramp in this scenario.
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On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed..
The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks.
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On February 02 2016 10:53 Terence Chill wrote:
since there was discussion about criticism on feedback and communication now the community gets buttered to hear "solid" and "brilliant"...
predictable
oh chill the fukc off
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On February 02 2016 11:06 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.. The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks.
But then players would just collapse the rocks (they need 500 damage) to deal 500 damage to the other rocks and use up the tower, no?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
i absolutely hate central protocol even though i have a good winrate on it
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On February 02 2016 11:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 11:06 Uvantak wrote:On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.. The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks. But then players would just collapse the rocks (they need 500 damage) to deal 500 damage to the other rocks and use up the tower, no?
Yeah, and I see nothing wrong with that, I actually find it kind of cool, because you are exposing yourself to inflict (at the time) indirect damage to your opponent that will only take shape later in the game.
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On February 02 2016 11:33 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 11:20 Big J wrote:On February 02 2016 11:06 Uvantak wrote:On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.. The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks. But then players would just collapse the rocks (they need 500 damage) to deal 500 damage to the other rocks and use up the tower, no? Yeah, and I see nothing wrong with that, I actually find it kind of cool, because you are exposing yourself to inflict (at the time) indirect damage to your opponent that will only take shape later in the game.
hm, care to elaborate the scenario?
Specifically taking down the tower so that the opponent doesn't have the option to close it later on is the exact same as just inflicting 500 damage to a regular rock entrance, unless the defender wants to open the path, no? Given how the map plays these days, the defenders either want the rocks closed or used up and open (when you take the next base). That means that you always want to kill the tower first, regardless whether you are attacker ordefender of the location, which makes it just a complicated version of a regular rock imo.
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On February 02 2016 11:26 lichter wrote:
i absolutely hate central protocol even though i have a good winrate on it
Yeah funny thing about central protocol. I have like an 80% win rate on it, but every time I see the loading screen I consider leaving immediately.
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Did I read that correctly... A gold base natural?
.....
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I really like Blizzard's approach this time
I like exploring new things, and I hope they notice that we do too.
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EPT
