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Update from DK
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20420494720#1
Lerilak Crest
As many of you guys have suggested this last week, we also agree that replacing the Rock Towers at the third base with Destructible Rocks is a solid suggestion. It would still keep the rush heavy nature of this map, while making the balance much better due to players having to focus mostly on the one choke point in the earliest stages of the game.
Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases.
Central Protocol
Feedback on this map was the most intriguing to us. We received extreme feedback along the lines of, "There's no change that can make the map better." We also received feedback going through the exact specifics of what makes this map difficult on a per map basis with detailed tuning suggestions that target those issues specifically. We were very impressed by the level of analysis and thought process that went through this type of feedback. Thank you so much.
The suggestions for this map boil down to two solutions: Disabling vertical spawn locations and removing the back door rocks.
Oh and conclusion is important too :
Please keep in mind that although none of these proposed changes are 100% final yet, we would really love to move quickly on them. Let's discuss these specific changes, call out other absolutely needed changes if there are any others, and nail down on the best direction for these maps. Thank you for your feedback.
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Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases.
Creative :O
Edit:
I think this might spark up some interesting 2 base allins, which isn't really that prevalent at the moment in LotV. It's mostly from 3 bases.
My suggestion was to place Rocks on the two closeby Gold Bases.
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On February 02 2016 09:52 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases. Creative :O Edit: I think this might spark up some interesting 2 base allins, which isn't really that prevalent at the moment in LotV. It's mostly from 3 bases. My suggestion was to place Rocks on the two closeby Gold Bases.
My suggestion was to place Watchtowers on the two gold bases.
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On February 02 2016 09:52 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Prion Terraces
We were impressed with the solution proposed by the community on this map, because of how brilliant it was. The suggestion was to reduce the gap between Zerg and the other races on this map in terms of gold bases by replacing the natural normal expansion with one of the gold bases. Creative :O Edit: I think this might spark up some interesting 2 base allins, which isn't really that prevalent at the moment in LotV. It's mostly from 3 bases. My suggestion was to place Rocks on the two closeby Gold Bases.
I was thinking about golden naturals myself for the map competition, I wouldn't be surprised if some are submitted.
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Good to hear they are busy on getting the maps better. Would be nice to see the GSL maps as well, but i have no idea if those are any good.
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A golden natural is hilarious. I am for.
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I'm not sure I like the natural expansion being gold minerals solution. The map definitely needs some change but I feel like you're going from one extreme to another. I feel like you're going from "zerg can too easily take a gold while the other race can't" to the reverse.
It feels like its much easier for Terran/Protoss to pressure a zerg's natural than the other way around, meaning that while both players will have access to the gold it will be much easier for Terran/Protoss to punish a zerg at their natural than the other way around. This is all assuming that the closer to the main gold base is the one that becomes normal. I think I'd like to see the farther away gold be a normal base so zergs can't almost instantly take 2 golds
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since there was discussion about criticism on feedback and communication now the community gets buttered to hear "solid" and "brilliant"...
predictable
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Thanks Gwavajuice for posting it here, here are my proposals for Prion and Central Protocol
Prion Terraces
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lOuFmcY.jpg) Changed the Natural for the forward 3rd
If they want to swap the Bases the best way I would go around it, it would be to swap the near 3rd with the natural instead of what would be 4th with the natural, because in ZvP Zerg would have easy access to the 2 gold bases if the Z goes for a quick 3 hatch while the toss player will stay with a single gold base, and given the high extra income given by gold bases in low worker scenarios, leaving the frontal base as a third would only increase the income differential between the two races which atm is already problematic on the map (the reason for this change).
PvT is also a problematic MU in the map, and usually before this change P player would take the frontal 3rd base compared to the "fourth", with this change you are creating a new dynamic in the map where players can create new strategies that allow require them to stretch a bit more and take the far away 4th and gain the extra income from it which would otherwise not happen.
As a nail in the coffin for the idea of swapping the natural for the near 3rd we also have the max worker efficiency as a cap which for gold bases is 12, this means that for players to efficiently take 3 bases they require to have around 40 workers as a minimum, and that's a threshold of income enough for some pretty nasty timing pushes.
Central Protocol
Option A: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WeueQKY.jpg) ♦ Reduced the size of the ramps to 1x, not a necessity, but it helps a bit. ♦ Moved the rocks from the far away ramps to the Natural's ramp. ♦ Slightly rotated & moved the mineral in the main base to account for the new entrance to the main (not a necessity either, but it also helps).
Option B: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/htHViTU.jpg) Same as before, but here I also lowered the entire natural base because of possible issues with the rocks having too few HP to stop big armies and the defensive player needs a second choke point to aid himself agaisnt enemy armies attacking is natural.
Change the backdoor into giving the players a third base, with this change the map will still have issues, and given the layout of central protocol there are no fixes to that without things like half bases or rocks with extra HP, which on their own could fairly easily solve the issues of the map but I digress . With these changes the map flow would be quite altered, but because the map was conceived with a backdoor in mind there are no other heavier changes needed (such as moving or splitting bases), yet there still would be other issues like the difference between the attacker and defender distances when the defender is trying to take his 3rd, and the map would need to lose the horizontal spawn capabilities.
There are other ideas I have flying around, but the issue is that I don't know how much are they willing to change the map, I could fairly easy do things like fix the flow/disntace to the third by adding a set of half bases, or strengthen the problems with the backdoors by reducing the size of the ramp that's placed there, or even increase the HP of the rocks to more than just 2000, but my main problem as I said, I simply don't know how much do they want to change the map, and I'm hard pressed by time already with their submission contest as it is.
If Blizzard folk wanna contact me or other mapmakers so we could help them, you guys know where to easily find us.
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I can see a lot of habitation station style gangnam terran on prion terraces. Fun times are here again.
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If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.
I think the solution for Prion is indeed interesting, yet, obviously risky too. Especially since the ramp is so incredibly easy to wall off with only 2 3x3 buildings. (e.g. in the reaper rushes 2 barracks do the trick)
I think it would be wise to increase the size of the natural ramp in this scenario.
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On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed..
The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks.
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On February 02 2016 10:53 Terence Chill wrote:
since there was discussion about criticism on feedback and communication now the community gets buttered to hear "solid" and "brilliant"...
predictable
oh chill the fukc off
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On February 02 2016 11:06 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.. The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks.
But then players would just collapse the rocks (they need 500 damage) to deal 500 damage to the other rocks and use up the tower, no?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
i absolutely hate central protocol even though i have a good winrate on it
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On February 02 2016 11:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 11:06 Uvantak wrote:On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.. The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks. But then players would just collapse the rocks (they need 500 damage) to deal 500 damage to the other rocks and use up the tower, no?
Yeah, and I see nothing wrong with that, I actually find it kind of cool, because you are exposing yourself to inflict (at the time) indirect damage to your opponent that will only take shape later in the game.
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On February 02 2016 11:33 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 11:20 Big J wrote:On February 02 2016 11:06 Uvantak wrote:On February 02 2016 11:03 Big J wrote:
If the rock towers get replaced on Lerilak, will it be with one huge rock, or with a 6x6 rock and the place where the indestructible part of rock tower sits stays choked? I'm for the second solution, otherwise the third base will be incredibly open once the rocks are destroyed.. The way I asume it would be is to add the rocks AND the collapsible rocks, and in case that's not done the chokepoint size will be reduced to snugly accommodate the new set of 6x6 rocks. But then players would just collapse the rocks (they need 500 damage) to deal 500 damage to the other rocks and use up the tower, no? Yeah, and I see nothing wrong with that, I actually find it kind of cool, because you are exposing yourself to inflict (at the time) indirect damage to your opponent that will only take shape later in the game.
hm, care to elaborate the scenario?
Specifically taking down the tower so that the opponent doesn't have the option to close it later on is the exact same as just inflicting 500 damage to a regular rock entrance, unless the defender wants to open the path, no? Given how the map plays these days, the defenders either want the rocks closed or used up and open (when you take the next base). That means that you always want to kill the tower first, regardless whether you are attacker ordefender of the location, which makes it just a complicated version of a regular rock imo.
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On February 02 2016 11:26 lichter wrote:
i absolutely hate central protocol even though i have a good winrate on it
Yeah funny thing about central protocol. I have like an 80% win rate on it, but every time I see the loading screen I consider leaving immediately.
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Did I read that correctly... A gold base natural?
.....
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I really like Blizzard's approach this time
I like exploring new things, and I hope they notice that we do too.
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On February 02 2016 10:47 chipmonklord17 wrote:
This is all assuming that the closer to the main gold base is the one that becomes normal.
This is very confusing grammar. Please try again.
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I'm really excited to see how that natural gold base plays out on PT. All the changes seem pretty good to me.
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Love these changes. However, Central Protocol could use Rock Towers on the natural ramps.
Then the main destructible rocks ramps could stay. Not sure if that would still mean vertical spawns would need to be removed or not, though.
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On prion I feel it would be better to change the natural to a gold and to either:
-change the two existing gold bases close to the main base to regular blue bases Or
-keep the gold bases outside the natural as they are.
If you change one of the outside gold bases you force every race to take the same 3rd base and that I think is not good.
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Sounds good. The natural gold is going to be interesting.
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Fuck gold base naturals, I want a map that has a 10-patch starting gold base with 3 geysers.
Has would go nuts.
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Awwwww yiiiissssss Gangnam Terran is back!!
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This is cool, I've had Prion vetoed for quite awhile now but this might make me give it a go with everyone having a free gold base.
These all seem like sensible little fixes on all the maps, but what I'm really waiting for is just better maps in general, not "unique" maps.
Wanna know what was so "unique" about Overgrowth? It was simple and very balanced. What's wrong with just that?
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On February 02 2016 16:20 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Wanna know what was so "unique" about Overgrowth? It was simple and very balanced. What's wrong with just that?
It had the Gold that Zerg could take, even offensively with Spinecrawler rush. It had the behind the natural area where you can place Siege Tanks, Pylon to warp in and the likes. And it had no Blink area entering the main. It also had a very defensive 4th. I know what you mean though, it was a fine map, but for my liking it was in the map pool for way too long. It's really not up there as one of the best IMO.
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On February 02 2016 16:04 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Fuck gold base naturals, I want a map that has a 10-patch starting gold base with 3 geysers.
Has would go nuts.
Where is Has? I mean we got shooting pylons and everything.
Has?
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On February 02 2016 18:10 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 16:04 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Fuck gold base naturals, I want a map that has a 10-patch starting gold base with 3 geysers.
Has would go nuts. Where is Has? I mean we got shooting pylons and everything. Has?
Has will be playing at IEM Katowice.
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On February 02 2016 16:04 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Fuck gold base naturals, I want a map that has a 10-patch starting gold base with 3 geysers.
Has would go nuts.
I second that. But a minor change: starting base gold, but no geysers. In fact only 1 geyser on the whole map! Whoever gets it and holds it the longest wins! 
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On February 02 2016 18:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 18:10 Penev wrote:On February 02 2016 16:04 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Fuck gold base naturals, I want a map that has a 10-patch starting gold base with 3 geysers.
Has would go nuts. Where is Has? I mean we got shooting pylons and everything. Has? Has will be playing at IEM Katowice.
Yes!
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On February 02 2016 16:12 Lunareste wrote:
Awwwww yiiiissssss Gangnam Terran is back!!
Not sure at all it's worth it with the new economy, you'll delay your gazes so much for not such a big return
When floating, the natural is actually not closer than the third btw, so this change alone won't make gangam terran more viable that it is now.
But I would be curious to see this wonderful article updated with new economy.
Any brave nerd out there?
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Blizz listening to the community about the problems of their maps is pretty nice news IMO.
Small steps.
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![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaONsmtWEAQDKvj.jpg)
#Switching Gold Bases
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On February 02 2016 22:22 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 16:12 Lunareste wrote:
Awwwww yiiiissssss Gangnam Terran is back!! Not sure at all it's worth it with the new economy, you'll delay your gazes so much for not such a big return
You don't only delay the gas either. It used to be with Gangnam Terran that because of the income boost from the gold, your buildings wouldn't end up being significantly delayed. Imagine now in LotV, you start your first supply depot in a standard game at like 19 seconds. If you go Gangnam I'm not sure you'll even be mining yet at 19 seconds.
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These sound like great updates, thanks DK!
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I dont think 2 base allins will be particularly stronger with natural gold or not. Remember the defending player also has the defensive advantage of a gold base.
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Mules should mine 30-35 minerals per trip for gold patches to give Terran more of a chance on these gold base maps.
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What was that Broodwar map back in the old days that had a 2 geysers and 10 or 11 patch main? I really think something similar could be added for SC2, a 9 or 10 patch starting gold base with 3 geysers, would make for some very interesting, albeit probably imbalanced maps to play on. Add other map features to reduce all-ins off your initial super base if possible, I really think we need some drastic changes in the SC2 map pool.
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Am I the only one to think the gold natural approach is very risky ?
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On February 03 2016 07:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Am I the only one to think the gold natural approach is very risky ?
No I posted the same concern on the first page. I don't think this solves anything but switch from being Zerg favor to being Protoss/Terran favored. I don't know what it will do to PvT but I don't even think its a problem, unless you're sOs
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On February 03 2016 07:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Am I the only one to think the gold natural approach is very risky ?
I think it will favour 2 base all-in play from non-zerg races.
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We needed changes... and they gave it to us... THANKS DK, ME HAPPY <3
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1) lift CC
2) land at natural
3) profit
Don't think its a good idea unless you do something about the natural ramp. At the moment it takes 3 buildings to block.
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map change is very important. more important than small unit changes 
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I still don't understand why they have maps that are so overwhelmingly favored to one race. That just makes competition a joke...
But at least they are trying to fix their stupidity...
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On February 02 2016 16:46 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 16:20 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Wanna know what was so "unique" about Overgrowth? It was simple and very balanced. What's wrong with just that? It had the Gold that Zerg could take, even offensively with Spinecrawler rush. It had the behind the natural area where you can place Siege Tanks, Pylon to warp in and the likes. And it had no Blink area entering the main. It also had a very defensive 4th. I know what you mean though, it was a fine map, but for my liking it was in the map pool for way too long. It's really not up there as one of the best IMO.
Those were things that made interesting games, IMO
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Has the actual balance patch been released yet?
And btw, I'm preparing my anus for these map selections that Blizzard is going to be handling. Not favoring standard maps in favor of maps like Ulrena and Prion? Oh man -___-
Wanna know what the interesting feature of Overgrowth was? It was that it was super balanced across the board and it became a standard because of it.
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EPT
