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On February 14 2016 08:59 Seeker wrote:
Starting from this page on, I will be moderating more harshly toward any mention of MarineKing's name. This thread has NOTHING to do with MarineKing. Do not talk about MarineKing even if you are defending him. Just don't do it. Please no match-fixing accusations on MarineKing or any other player if it has not officially been confirmed. This goes for other players too. -The_Templar |
On February 05 2016 02:04 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 01:55 nighcol wrote:On February 05 2016 01:48 HugoBallzak wrote:
The second highest career winnings in sc2 is like nothing compared to what progamers in other esport titles make who aren't even that good. I doubt he had a very good salary on top of those winnings. Even in csgo, the team that was caught matchfixing were a team that wasn't receiving ANY salary from their org despite solid results. Its so frustrating to watch these devs and league organizers want to promote the game as being a professional competition but the players are not even being paid or treated like it. There needs to be better protection for players both financially and contractually. Blizz basically came out this year and told all of Korea to **** off that they don't even deserve the chance to compete for wcs money despite being the best in the world. Treat the players like crap and they will treat the competition the same way. I strongly disagree with his earnings being all that bad but even if that was the case, this will never be a world where even the average earnings could be anywhere close to what Life got in SC2, Blizzard favoring foreigners or not. If that's what it takes to have fair competition without matches being fixed we'll have to forget about it. You do realize that this year's WCS changes are also completely unrelated to what we're talking about here? I don't think it is. Most pro players are not playing for the love of the game. They are playing for the chance to make a living and set themselves up for a future after their window for winning has closed, before they have to put their life on hold and join the military. If I was a pro sc2 player in korea I would be extremely worried about the dwindling amount of opportunities to make money this year and especially beyond this year. Somebody comes to you and says "Hey heres $15,000.00 all you gotta do is lose this one match in proleague, literally 30min of your time, and its yours" I can see why its so easy for a person especially someone so young to be tempted.
The problem is that all the matchfixing uncovered so far happened before we had any idea that WCS was going to be the way it is this year. Certainly WCS 2016 is not a good way to prevent it in the future but either way it already happened. If Life is guilty of it in 2015 as is suspected, he did it while having just won a Blizzcon at the end of 2014 and grabbing another GSL during the year. And that's not even mentionioning some of his smaller wins. Of course he also finished the year with a second place at Blizzcon. On top of that he had some kind of a salary and I'd assume it was one of the higher ones among all the active SC2 pros.
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From what i recall MC said in the interview after winning WCS in 2014 that he would give the prize money to his mother to save it for him until he finishes the military service, that is when he was at least 22 yo.
I think this is the culture in Korea generally. Life's parents were extremely engaged, they attended every single final he played in Korea and he was underage until a few weeks ago.
I am almost certain they held up his earnings and kept him living on what they thought is a more than sufficient salary. This means he certainly did have a financial motive after all, especially as a teenager.
I am really sorry for his parents even if this is not true.
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On February 05 2016 02:16 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 01:39 Shinespark wrote:
Can anyone point me to a VOD of Life clearly losing on purpose? Anyone?
To have that kind of evidence he would have had to mess up badly. It happens but most of the time it's not painfully obvious... I don't think we've had a SC2 match were someone was *clearly* losing on purpose apart from the one involving that one terran player that ended up being innocent...
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On February 05 2016 00:24 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 23:48 LDaVinci wrote:
I've followed this from quite far so can someone enlighten me with what's happening ?
I got that he match fixed old games but is Life charged for recent match fixing ? Is he charged for loosing games for money, winning games against money or both ?
I saw the replay of the match that was posted here (or the other thread I'm not sure) that clearly shows he lost on purpose. Maybe this one was fixed ?!... but is there equivalent games where he won too easily (and I'm not talking about Lilbow at blizzcon) ? Winning games for money is what professional gamers do, giving them money in exchange for winning won't allow you to fix a result. Losing on purpose is something you can pretty much guarantee so that's what fixing the matches is about. You might be able to make it even more beliveable by having even the winner in on it but it's definitely not a necessity.
Don't forget the two types of match-fixing that complicates this straightforward view:
prop bets (ie, how long the game lasts, how many bases someone ends up taking, ect)
individual matches within a set (some of the pinnacle voids occured where a player lost an individual map, but won the best of, and yes you can bet on individual maps)
On February 05 2016 00:27 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 00:24 nighcol wrote:On February 04 2016 23:48 LDaVinci wrote:
I've followed this from quite far so can someone enlighten me with what's happening ?
I got that he match fixed old games but is Life charged for recent match fixing ? Is he charged for loosing games for money, winning games against money or both ?
I saw the replay of the match that was posted here (or the other thread I'm not sure) that clearly shows he lost on purpose. Maybe this one was fixed ?!... but is there equivalent games where he won too easily (and I'm not talking about Lilbow at blizzcon) ? Winning games for money is what professional gamers do, giving them money in exchange for winning won't allow you to fix a result. Losing on purpose is something you can pretty much guarantee so that's what fixing the matches is about. You might be able to make it even more beliveable by having even the winner in on it but it's definitely not a necessity. Well, you can bribe the opponent to lose on purpose, which I'd assume is worse than losing on purpose. But that probably won't happen.
Happened in WCS EU Challenger last year. Got two players banned, although they both claimed they were 'just joking about it'.
On February 05 2016 02:09 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 01:45 JeffKim wrote:
This is being blown way out of proportion. Seeing the way this is being "covered" in Korea compared to the online reaction stateside is alarming. Could you be so kind as to give some insight into how it is being covered in Korea?
If it's anything like how they initially 'covered' the Savi0r scandal - desperately trying to sweep everything under the rug
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On February 05 2016 02:04 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 01:55 nighcol wrote:On February 05 2016 01:48 HugoBallzak wrote:
The second highest career winnings in sc2 is like nothing compared to what progamers in other esport titles make who aren't even that good. I doubt he had a very good salary on top of those winnings. Even in csgo, the team that was caught matchfixing were a team that wasn't receiving ANY salary from their org despite solid results. Its so frustrating to watch these devs and league organizers want to promote the game as being a professional competition but the players are not even being paid or treated like it. There needs to be better protection for players both financially and contractually. Blizz basically came out this year and told all of Korea to **** off that they don't even deserve the chance to compete for wcs money despite being the best in the world. Treat the players like crap and they will treat the competition the same way. I strongly disagree with his earnings being all that bad but even if that was the case, this will never be a world where even the average earnings could be anywhere close to what Life got in SC2, Blizzard favoring foreigners or not. If that's what it takes to have fair competition without matches being fixed we'll have to forget about it. You do realize that this year's WCS changes are also completely unrelated to what we're talking about here? I don't think it is. Most pro players are not playing for the love of the game. They are playing for the chance to make a living and set themselves up for a future after their window for winning has closed, before they have to put their life on hold and join the military. If I was a pro sc2 player in korea I would be extremely worried about the dwindling amount of opportunities to make money this year and especially beyond this year. Somebody comes to you and says "Hey heres $15,000.00 all you gotta do is lose this one match in proleague, literally 30min of your time, and its yours" I can see why its so easy for a person especially someone so young to be tempted.
Interestingly there has been research into increasing wages to fight corruption in Ghana.
This was part of the conclusion:
Since the Ghanaian salary increase experiment took place without a commensurate increase in enforcement of anti corruption laws, the results here suggest that merely raising salaries without changing the context and incentives within which reference dependent civil servants operate may not have the expected or desired effects on corruption. We demonstrate that raising salaries of corrupt officials can have the consequence of worsening petty corruption, in contrast to many theoretical and experimental predictions from the literature. The results also call into question the relevance of cross-country studies and laboratory based studies, which have shown that higher salaries or payments reduce corruption. The empirical results presented here suggest that fighting corruption cannot be done by salary policies alone. Further work is warranted to investigate how widespread the effects shown here are or whether they are specific to West Africa. Investigations of corruption may need to consider salary raises with important complementary factors such as increased corruption enforcement as well as more cohesive institutions as part and parcel of the same equation.
www.parisschoolofeconomics.eu
This is of course something else than match fixing but I think it's pretty relevant to answer the question if raising wages works.
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Matchfixing is particularly inexcusable when coming from a player who has won as much as Life. He wasn't in the situation of a player on a team paying very little salary and who wins very little from tournaments. Matchfixing from those kinds of players is still terrible, but it is at least more understandable than from a player like Life. Desperation can drive people to do the wrong thing, but Life was in no way in a desperate circumstance when it came to his financial situation, assuming that he didn't blow all his money on random junk.
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On February 05 2016 02:26 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 02:16 Shinespark wrote:On February 05 2016 01:39 Shinespark wrote:
Can anyone point me to a VOD of Life clearly losing on purpose? Anyone? To have that kind of evidence he would have had to mess up badly. It happens but most of the time it's not painfully obvious... I don't think we've had a SC2 match were someone was *clearly* losing on purpose apart from the one involving that one terran player that ended up being innocent...
Sure, that's true. What I meant to ask was if anyone could point me to the most suspicious game that Life played. I'm sure people already have some games in mind where bets were voided or Life made a bad mistake or something like that.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 05 2016 01:48 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 01:43 opisska wrote:On February 05 2016 01:33 Kab00om wrote:
Hey,
I did not follow all match-fixing scandals in depth and therefore
might have a rather naive approach to this. But basically
I have to questions:
1. Is there any (reasonable) explanation for the match-fixing itself, and directly as a follow up
2. if so, would the explanation possibly lead to a solution of it?!
In addition I would like to add my own thoughts:
When I first heard about the match-fixing (independent of which player
it was), I thought, ok, they do this for the money.
As I think that being a progamer, even in Korea, is almost always
a precarious life situation. So I thought that m.b. the circumstances
of being a progamer might lead to the temptation of match fixing in
order to have, basically, more money.
So my original thought and question was and still is:"Would it help
to m.b. increase the salary of progamers?", or, m.b. even better, offer
them a one to two year "social plan" after the end of their progamer
career?!".
Something like an opportunity to find something else if they actually
want to?!
Would that be a possible solution? Does anybody know about this?!
And if not, what else would be a solution? Because I think finding
a solution to this would help everybody involved, eSports (StarCraft
scene) including?! If the accusations against the player with the second higher career winnings in SC2 history turn out to be true, the idea that increasing salaries would solve anything will take a pretty big hit. The second highest career winnings in sc2 is like nothing compared to what progamers in other esport titles make who aren't even that good. I doubt he had a very good salary on top of those winnings. Even in csgo, the team that was caught matchfixing were a team that wasn't receiving ANY salary from their org despite solid results. Its so frustrating to watch these devs and league organizers want to promote the game as being a professional competition but the players are not even being paid or treated like it. There needs to be better protection for players both financially and contractually. Blizz basically came out this year and told all of Korea to **** off that they don't even deserve the chance to compete for wcs money despite being the best in the world. Treat the players like crap and they will treat the competition the same way.
If I take Parting and his salary in SKT T1 I think the best pros are payed sufficiently 
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I guess because it was Yoda fixing and his opponent ended up being TY. Unless you think Life was also part of it just in case...
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On February 05 2016 03:26 nighcol wrote:I guess because it was Yoda fixing and his opponent ended up being TY. Unless you think Life was also part of it just in case...
But they did play on March 25 2015 in Ro 16.
I am sorry for speculating anway
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On February 05 2016 02:21 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 02:10 swissman777 wrote:On February 05 2016 01:43 opisska wrote:On February 05 2016 01:33 Kab00om wrote:
Hey,
I did not follow all match-fixing scandals in depth and therefore
might have a rather naive approach to this. But basically
I have to questions:
1. Is there any (reasonable) explanation for the match-fixing itself, and directly as a follow up
2. if so, would the explanation possibly lead to a solution of it?!
In addition I would like to add my own thoughts:
When I first heard about the match-fixing (independent of which player
it was), I thought, ok, they do this for the money.
As I think that being a progamer, even in Korea, is almost always
a precarious life situation. So I thought that m.b. the circumstances
of being a progamer might lead to the temptation of match fixing in
order to have, basically, more money.
So my original thought and question was and still is:"Would it help
to m.b. increase the salary of progamers?", or, m.b. even better, offer
them a one to two year "social plan" after the end of their progamer
career?!".
Something like an opportunity to find something else if they actually
want to?!
Would that be a possible solution? Does anybody know about this?!
And if not, what else would be a solution? Because I think finding
a solution to this would help everybody involved, eSports (StarCraft
scene) including?! If the accusations against the player with the second higher career winnings in SC2 history turn out to be true, the idea that increasing salaries would solve anything will take a pretty big hit. But Life's salaries weren't good during his startale days... and I am pretty sure it won't make such an impact in that sense as coaches aren't stupid. It has been proven through long periods of BW that salaries do make the difference, not necessarily prevent match-fixing, but performance in general Well salaries go with the importance of the league to the spectators, sorry but SC2 is not that popular in Korea, so the players cant earn a nice salary, it is a miracle that there is a proleague.
I bet if all the Koreans come to the EU and play here for like 2 years at least, in a SUPER competition with players all over the world, the hype would be not predictable.
I think it would be great for the EU and or NA scene who come over here, and practice in one big ladder thats only for the pro's.
If you see how many moneys is raised for KOREAN tourneys only, like BTTV its obvious that people would even want to sponser the salaries of korean players to practise in the EU and play in foreign leagues.
But i know, the Tringggggg tringgg goes and i wake up.
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On February 05 2016 02:25 MRSA_SC2 wrote:
From what i recall MC said in the interview after winning WCS in 2014 that he would give the prize money to his mother to save it for him until he finishes the military service, that is when he was at least 22 yo.
I think this is the culture in Korea generally. Life's parents were extremely engaged, they attended every single final he played in Korea and he was underage until a few weeks ago.
I am almost certain they held up his earnings and kept him living on what they thought is a more than sufficient salary. This means he certainly did have a financial motive after all, especially as a teenager.
I am really sorry for his parents even if this is not true.
Yeah, that seems to be a huge part of Korean culture, kids taking care of parents. All of MKP's money went to his aprents too, iicr.
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On February 05 2016 03:53 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 02:25 MRSA_SC2 wrote:
From what i recall MC said in the interview after winning WCS in 2014 that he would give the prize money to his mother to save it for him until he finishes the military service, that is when he was at least 22 yo.
I think this is the culture in Korea generally. Life's parents were extremely engaged, they attended every single final he played in Korea and he was underage until a few weeks ago.
I am almost certain they held up his earnings and kept him living on what they thought is a more than sufficient salary. This means he certainly did have a financial motive after all, especially as a teenager.
I am really sorry for his parents even if this is not true. Yeah, that seems to be a huge part of Korean culture, kids taking care of parents. All of MKP's money went to his aprents too, iicr.
Actually, the real tragedy there was MKP was keeping Prime afloat the first year with a portion of his winnings. That's why I thought he'd never leave and was so shocked to see him actually move to MVP.
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On February 04 2016 22:03 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 21:16 Penev wrote:On February 04 2016 20:59 Philozovic wrote:On February 04 2016 20:50 Penev wrote:On February 04 2016 20:44 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:On February 04 2016 18:02 Shakattak wrote:On February 04 2016 17:59 Skyhook wrote:
CHEATER CHEATER PUMPKIN EATER! HOW CAN WE BE SURE HIS LIFE IS NOT ONE BIG LIE!? HOW DO WE KNOW ALL THOSE TITLES ARE LEGIT?!?! STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLES AND BAN HIM FOREVER!!! Only when the release ALL of the details shall i get behind this statement if he is guilty. So if he's proven guilty of matchfixing 5 games, we should strip him of all his titles, which he supposedly acquired in a legit way? ... What's next, when someone is proven guilty of murdering one's wife, we'll also consider him guilty of murdering one's children and parents, even though they're alive? Lance Armstrong admits to doping and loses all his shit. How should it be different for E-sport athletes? Match fixing and gambling are some of the worst blight on competitive sport in all areas. You throw matches for money, you don't deserve to be called a champion, thats it. You harm the game as a whole, it cheapens the competitive aspect of it all because of greed. He won those tournaments, yes, but he should be stripped of his titles. If he was really a champion he would give his all, all the time, in every competion and wouldn't let third parties who are out to make a profit have influence on that. The reasons why you analogy doesn't work, it should be obvious, without me having to say it, but I'll say it anyways. Murder only has immediate victims, barring the grief the loved ones feel, it doesn't ruin it for everyone else like match fixing competitions does. You don't get charged for extra murders or blamed for killing more people if you didn't do it. It doesn't work retroactively and you aren't awarded for doing so in the first place so there isn't an incentive to do it. Life and Co. Or whoever else is involved with this fuck it up for people who do give there best and pour thousands of hours into this game for it to be legit. This is spitting in their face. Armstrong is a bad example in this because he only lost the titles he admitted to have been doing doping in. No he also lost his 2009 3rd place despite no proof of doping and denying that he was loaded at that time But he kept other titles, which is the main point I don't really see the importance of this discussion I must say. Everyone still knows how good sAviOr was and that he won those titles. You can't erase history like that. And if they didn't vacate those titles everyone would still hate him and know what he'd done. I don't think sAviOr would care much either way as well. I was not arguing I was just saying that all that Armstrong ever won got erased from 1998 (EPO using) even if there is no proof of him cheating in 2009, if you apply that to life (again I don't even see how it's comparable, I think it's a terrible analogy) evey event he participated since he fixed would be stripped from him. But I agree with OtherWorld I never understood why sAviOr was stripped from his tittle by KESPA. But I never followed BW. Even if he fixed, life will still be GOAT (I agree he should be ban forever though)
Just a technical point, but I think there was proof of Lance Armstrong doping use in 2009 and 2010, because the US anti doping agency used blood samples of those years in their case against him. That's why his third place in the 2009 Tour de France was voided.
And for whoever is wondering, he was also doping before his first comeback, but he did not win too much of note except for the world title (which is more of a minor event in cycling) and it happened a long time ago, so there was no impetus to dig up proof for that era. It could probably have been found had they really wanted to, because circumstantial evidence already exists.
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On February 05 2016 02:22 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 02:04 HugoBallzak wrote:On February 05 2016 01:55 nighcol wrote:On February 05 2016 01:48 HugoBallzak wrote:
The second highest career winnings in sc2 is like nothing compared to what progamers in other esport titles make who aren't even that good. I doubt he had a very good salary on top of those winnings. Even in csgo, the team that was caught matchfixing were a team that wasn't receiving ANY salary from their org despite solid results. Its so frustrating to watch these devs and league organizers want to promote the game as being a professional competition but the players are not even being paid or treated like it. There needs to be better protection for players both financially and contractually. Blizz basically came out this year and told all of Korea to **** off that they don't even deserve the chance to compete for wcs money despite being the best in the world. Treat the players like crap and they will treat the competition the same way. I strongly disagree with his earnings being all that bad but even if that was the case, this will never be a world where even the average earnings could be anywhere close to what Life got in SC2, Blizzard favoring foreigners or not. If that's what it takes to have fair competition without matches being fixed we'll have to forget about it. You do realize that this year's WCS changes are also completely unrelated to what we're talking about here? I don't think it is. Most pro players are not playing for the love of the game. They are playing for the chance to make a living and set themselves up for a future after their window for winning has closed, before they have to put their life on hold and join the military. If I was a pro sc2 player in korea I would be extremely worried about the dwindling amount of opportunities to make money this year and especially beyond this year. Somebody comes to you and says "Hey heres $15,000.00 all you gotta do is lose this one match in proleague, literally 30min of your time, and its yours" I can see why its so easy for a person especially someone so young to be tempted. The problem is that all the matchfixing uncovered so far happened before we had any idea that WCS was going to be the way it is this year. Certainly WCS 2016 is not a good way to prevent it in the future but either way it already happened. If Life is guilty of it in 2015 as is suspected, he did it while having just won a Blizzcon at the end of 2014 and grabbing another GSL during the year. And that's not even mentionioning some of his smaller wins. Of course he also finished the year with a second place at Blizzcon. On top of that he had some kind of a salary and I'd assume it was one of the higher ones among all the active SC2 pros.
Don't bother to answer to him when he's mentioning anything about WCS (I don't know, I didn't see his posts in other discussions, he may be a cool and reasonable guy overall), since his every post is overall some subliminal, sarcastic, snarky comment about how awful it is. All of that what he said in this post is aimed explicitly at the new system.
Blizzard for 2016 locked out pros coming to foreign tournaments that did not benefit local regions by their presence, since they're training in their own environment unaccessible to other scenes - that's the reason Life - player that had recent achievements that you listed, nighcol - took money to purposely play a match how someone wanted. That's what he wanted to say.
That's not just stupid and untrue, it's pathetic
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I see a lot of new posts in this thread, but from the looks of it, no actual news?
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On February 05 2016 05:52 Incognoto wrote:
I see a lot of new posts in this thread, but from the looks of it, no actual news?
No actual news.
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On February 05 2016 03:53 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 02:25 MRSA_SC2 wrote:
From what i recall MC said in the interview after winning WCS in 2014 that he would give the prize money to his mother to save it for him until he finishes the military service, that is when he was at least 22 yo.
I think this is the culture in Korea generally. Life's parents were extremely engaged, they attended every single final he played in Korea and he was underage until a few weeks ago.
I am almost certain they held up his earnings and kept him living on what they thought is a more than sufficient salary. This means he certainly did have a financial motive after all, especially as a teenager.
I am really sorry for his parents even if this is not true. Yeah, that seems to be a huge part of Korean culture, kids taking care of parents. All of MKP's money went to his aprents too, iicr. Look up some child actors to see how that often ends up. Most parents are good, but the bad ones can be really, really bad. Not saying this applies to Life, but it's one possibility.
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Match fixing is not something people stumble into by accident, it's not an almost accidental transgression you make because you woke up sleepy one day and didn't notice the boundaries. There is no slippery slope that gets you into the deep without you noticing it, there are no good rationalizations for it.
Matchfixing is conscious and premeditated, you have to make a deal with organised crime, so why do players do it? Is it greed, that is to say an inability to refuse the lure of easy money? Is it resentment against a scene which has not given you the credit and success that you felt like you deserved? Is it out of a sense of responsibility towards your team so that you can fund your team at the expense of the integrity of the scene?
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EPT
