|
On January 25 2016 09:40 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 08:18 DomeGetta wrote:On January 25 2016 07:59 FLuE wrote:on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work. If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid. You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks. A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces. What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event? If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series. I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea. LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused. The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen? I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point.. You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product. Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point). If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense. You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar." You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports. To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL. If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point.
This is really sad - we can disagree - but you sound really desperate (and irrational based on the content of my post condemning discrimination vs. promoting it (your view)) - calling me a racist. The only racist thing going on here is your continued point of "Koreans are just better - so they shouldn't be allowed to ruin my fun!" bullshit. I must have missed the part where South Koreans are born with some unfair performance enhancing conditions that make them "just better".
Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
You aren't even arguing a point - I never said that lower level players shouldn't be able to have their own exclusive tournaments if they want to do that - it just shouldn't be treated as a world championship and have the associated benefits if it's not actually a world championship. "Koreans are clearly better" let's just use that mindset into the future and lower our expectations of ourselves - this is a sound approach for the evolution of the sport and the betterment and advancement of the game.
Nobody is arguing against having "tiers" - if the EU and NA players want to have their own version of minor league - that's totally fine - but call it what it is and don't advertise it like it's not SC2 on training wheels with the hardest opponents being ruled out of the game - and don't be surprised when viewership drops due to that.
I'll go back to my original comment that you refuse to acknowledge - let me know when the last time lowering the bar created a higher value product. Or feel free to repeat your idiocy again and talk about how I don't understand the concept of lower tiers or leagues.
|
Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
This is actually how the Olympics were for an extremely long time, and the popularity and product was great. You don't understand my point, the best US basketball players WERE excluded from the Olympics for a long time, so were professional hockey players, any professional athlete for that matter.
I'll go back to my original comment that you refuse to acknowledge - let me know when the last time lowering the bar created a higher value product. Or feel free to repeat your idiocy again and talk about how I don't understand the concept of lower tiers or leagues.
I already provided the example, the Olympics before allowing professionals and only amateurs, my example above which you failed to understand. Amateur sports provide a ton of amazing sport moments, college sports provide amazing moments, minor league sports provide amazing moments.
You asked for an example, I provided several, then said I didn't give an example, and continue to be narrow minded. It is just a label that is the WCS. Everyone understands that the best players and highest level is in Korea, nobody is acting like the European events have equal players. The old system was failing to grow the game in any meaningful way. Maybe a real attempt at regional growth for the short term, could help the overall game grow in the long term.
Or things could have stayed as they were and the whole thing could have just continued to die slowly as a few Koreans make a living and the rest quit.
|
On January 22 2016 23:23 royalroadweed wrote:
Surely neeb deserved a mention under "The Young".
Agreed, I think PtitDrogo said something to the effect that Neeb was his most difficult opponent.
|
On January 25 2016 11:58 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 09:40 FLuE wrote:On January 25 2016 08:18 DomeGetta wrote:On January 25 2016 07:59 FLuE wrote:on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work. If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid. You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks. A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces. What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event? If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series. I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea. LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused. The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen? I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point.. You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product. Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point). If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense. You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar." You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports. To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL. If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point. Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
Umm, I'm not sure if you realize that DH or even WCS Circuit is not really a "world championship". The World Championship(The Olympics, The World Cup) is at Blizzcon. Korea has 8 out of 16 spots there.
In the mean time Korea has WCS Korea and the foreigners have WCS Circuit - lower leagues that give spots for the big World Championship.
Nobody is saying that PtitDrogo is the best in the world. He is the best WCS Circuit player at the moment.
Personally I liked the tournament and the games were fun. The lower viewership numbers are expected short term result of the new system. Still, 35-40k is OK for DH.
|
|
|
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
|
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
|
On January 26 2016 02:18 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all? Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in. Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league. Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer." So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
|
On January 26 2016 02:55 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 02:18 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all? Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in. Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league. Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer." So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are! They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is. And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving.
It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered.
World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament.
And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
|
On January 25 2016 17:03 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 11:58 DomeGetta wrote:On January 25 2016 09:40 FLuE wrote:On January 25 2016 08:18 DomeGetta wrote:On January 25 2016 07:59 FLuE wrote:on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work. If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid. You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks. A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces. What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event? If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series. I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea. LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused. The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen? I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point.. You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product. Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point). If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense. You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar." You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports. To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL. If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point. Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude." Umm, I'm not sure if you realize that DH or even WCS Circuit is not really a "world championship". The World Championship(The Olympics, The World Cup) is at Blizzcon. Korea has 8 out of 16 spots there. In the mean time Korea has WCS Korea and the foreigners have WCS Circuit - lower leagues that give spots for the big World Championship. Nobody is saying that PtitDrogo is the best in the world. He is the best WCS Circuit player at the moment. Personally I liked the tournament and the games were fun. The lower viewership numbers are expected short term result of the new system. Still, 35-40k is OK for DH.
Yeah last time I checked WCS points were awarded for that DH that just happened no?
Do minor league baseball teams get a bid to the major league playoffs for going undefeated?
I'll stop after this - seems I'm aggravating people not my intent - all I can say is that we're going to have a blizzcon with 8 koreans and 8 foreigners that get roflstomped out of the first round - while 8 absolute monster koreans watch from home because they had to compete all year vs the absolute best because of this stupid rule - they have to be better and play harder competition to attain the same result because they are Korean - that makes no sense.
And for my Olympics man - are u really using an example of something that was eliminated from the system?? I said an example where lowering the bar raised the value - not an example of something that was gotten rid of because it makes no sense..google objectivism - removing the tough competition for the foreigners will have a negative impact on their skill - if we are resigned to give up and throw in the towel on getting to equal footing with Korea ok fine - just say we give up - get rid of blizzcon. If we want to ever have a chance to be on the same level as them - we need them in our field of competition - period.
|
On January 26 2016 03:10 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 02:55 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 26 2016 02:18 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all? Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in. Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league. Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer." So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are! They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is. And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros. Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving. It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered. World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament. And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol.
|
On January 26 2016 06:03 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 03:10 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 02:55 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 26 2016 02:18 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all? Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in. Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league. Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer." So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are! They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is. And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros. Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving. It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered. World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament. And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there. ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol.
Actually in sports like Golf and Tennis players that perform well do get placed/bids into events like the US Open, Wimbledon, etc. Every year the winner of the US Amateur golf open gets an invite to the US Open. So does winners of events that get invited to the Masters. So actually yeah LOL.
If you want to argue that Blizzcon/WCS Finals should invite more Koreans, or less foreigners that is fine. But the fact that they get invited based on performance in lower leagues DOES in fact happen with those examples provided. For a lot of sports this has helped grow the game in popularity, by getting people from other countries or areas less involved in the sport into the big event to promote it.
So again, the examples being used by people are mostly inaccurate, most sports do exactly what WCS is doing. If you don't like the execution of it, the naming, the overall format then fine. Can't argue with that. But tired of people using other sports as examples of why this system isn't good when in fact most sports do something that mirror this in some way with a tiered setup that helps promote growth in areas that aren't as strong as others.
|
On January 26 2016 07:13 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 06:03 jalstar wrote:On January 26 2016 03:10 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 02:55 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 26 2016 02:18 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all? Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in. Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league. Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer." So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are! They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is. And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros. Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving. It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered. World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament. And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there. ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol. Actually in sports like Golf and Tennis players that perform well do get placed/bids into events like the US Open, Wimbledon, etc. Every year the winner of the US Amateur golf open gets an invite to the US Open. So does winners of events that get invited to the Masters. So actually yeah LOL. If you want to argue that Blizzcon/WCS Finals should invite more Koreans, or less foreigners that is fine. But the fact that they get invited based on performance in lower leagues DOES in fact happen with those examples provided. For a lot of sports this has helped grow the game in popularity, by getting people from other countries or areas less involved in the sport into the big event to promote it. So again, the examples being used by people are mostly inaccurate, most sports do exactly what WCS is doing. If you don't like the execution of it, the naming, the overall format then fine. Can't argue with that. But tired of people using other sports as examples of why this system isn't good when in fact most sports do something that mirror this in some way with a tiered setup that helps promote growth in areas that aren't as strong as others.
I dunno about golf but he was right about tennis. It's just the best performers who get invited to the end of year finals. US open and Wimbeldon aren't like Blizzcon, they're the WCS /GSL in his example.
|
On January 26 2016 07:35 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 07:13 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 06:03 jalstar wrote:On January 26 2016 03:10 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 02:55 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 26 2016 02:18 FLuE wrote:On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote:
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all? Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in. Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league. Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer." So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are! They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is. And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros. Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving. It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered. World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament. And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there. ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol. Actually in sports like Golf and Tennis players that perform well do get placed/bids into events like the US Open, Wimbledon, etc. Every year the winner of the US Amateur golf open gets an invite to the US Open. So does winners of events that get invited to the Masters. So actually yeah LOL. If you want to argue that Blizzcon/WCS Finals should invite more Koreans, or less foreigners that is fine. But the fact that they get invited based on performance in lower leagues DOES in fact happen with those examples provided. For a lot of sports this has helped grow the game in popularity, by getting people from other countries or areas less involved in the sport into the big event to promote it. So again, the examples being used by people are mostly inaccurate, most sports do exactly what WCS is doing. If you don't like the execution of it, the naming, the overall format then fine. Can't argue with that. But tired of people using other sports as examples of why this system isn't good when in fact most sports do something that mirror this in some way with a tiered setup that helps promote growth in areas that aren't as strong as others. I dunno about golf but he was right about tennis. It's just the best performers who get invited to the end of year finals. US open and Wimbeldon aren't like Blizzcon, they're the WCS /GSL in his example.
His response was so bizarre. "Actually, that's not how tennis works." "Yes it is how golf works."
???
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
