Much has been said about the changes to WCS 2016 and its implications on the DreamHack and IEM circuits. Arguments for and against have been lobbed across the divide like hand grenades, and they don't really bear repeating—this will likely be a ceaseless cold war. However, DreamHack: Leipzig will finally put some of the theories behind the changes into practice. This will serve as the first true test of our terraformed competitive landscape, and it will more than likely widen the crevasse between sides of this debate.
And how could it not? The factors that everyone will pay attention to will be used as ammunition by anyone regardless of the outcome. While information can be open to interpretation, using limited information too soon is also a great flaw.
1. Viewer count
One key point regarding the tournaments in question is whether or not the exclusion of Koreans will cause a rise or fall in viewer counts. Many people believe that the outcome will be indicative of the plan's success or failure, but that's an incredibly short sighted view on the matter.
Should the audience for Leipzig match or eclipse previous records, supporters of WCS 2016 will use it as vindication—a healthy viewer count suggests a healthy fanbase, after all. This outcome would suggest that there really is a market for foreigner only events, and that the majority of fans around the world (that is, not the hardcore fans) is interested in watching their hometown heroes. Whether we like it or not, nationalism is a strong motivator, and money in esports follows peoples eyes. However, this does not prove that Koreans are at fault or should be singled out; only that people will indeed watch foreigners fight for supremacy. Is sacrificing an entire region's participation for viewership really the only way to solve such a conundrum?
It's also possible for viewership to decrease. Should that happen, what exactly would we blame it on? Some will likely say that fans only want to watch the highest level of StarCraft offered by Koreans. Some will interpret it as a lack of interest in watching foreigners bludgeon each other to death. Others still will surmise that without the Sisyphean narrative of foreigners beating Koreans, the allure of DreamHacks and IEMs with open brackets has all but disappeared. More than likely, all of the above would apply to certain degrees. However, these are only three of many possibilities. A lack of awareness for the event or its players could be a potential cause; a jaded foreign fanbase could be another.
The picture, of course, is far more complex than our reductionist reasoning often allows, and viewership fluctuations can be caused by several reasons. Yet is viewership—and in this argument, immediate viewership as opposed to potential growth—the prime factor that should drive decision-making in esports? That, of course, is an argument in and of itself.
2. Game quality
For the self proclaimed purist, nothing matters more than good games. Some insist that their fandom for the game far outstrips their individual fandom for players, and any reduction in the quality of games hurts them more than the absence or elimination of their favorite players. While there is merit in such a belief—good games are inherently more entertaining, of course—game quality is and always will be a subjective matter. While some fans prefer macro games, other prefer well planned strategic strikes. There are even some people who love cheese (hi stuchiu) or 'dumb' games (mostly just lichter). While there is certainly a general consensus for the best games, enjoyment at the median level is far more contentious.
There is even the theory that the average fan—again, not the hardcore fanbase that presumably understands the game deeper—would not be able to tell who is playing if there were no player name cards. While the original statement resulted in a lengthy debate of its own, the suggestion is not without truth. We can, of course, identify whether or not games are good by merely watching. Yet could our opinions be clouded by the names we see on screen? It's possible, and games should certainly be judged by their merit and not by the men behind the mouses. The belief that "better players result in better games" is not necessarily true, either, as the highest level of mech vs pre-patch swarmhost games in Heart of the Swarm can attest to. Our love of scrappy games from the likes of FanTaSy and TRUE also suggest that perfection is not the only basis of game quality, and that good games can come from any source. In fact, the much reviled FireCake (often for his playstyle as much as his personality) played one of the best ZvZs (a matchup similarly reviled) of last year against Zanster.
At the end of the day, do we really remember the average level of games throughout the entire tournament, or only its defining moments? Do we fondly recall how every Ro32 game was of adequate quality, or do we laud that one epic series in an otherwise drab programme? If all games could be 5-star games, all the better. But no tournament is immune to bad games, even GSL and SSL, and we hardly rate them less because of them.
3. The fates of Hydra and viOLet
While the field for Leipzig is primarily foreign, there are still two Koreans participating in Hydra and viOLet. Their fates will likely draw debate, especially if they have polarizing performances.
Should one of them win, it would further enforce—as if it needed more enforcing—the Korean hegemony in StarCraft. A cumulative inability by the best foreign players to oust the two zergs would either be seen as an embarrassment or further proof that "some Koreans" is almost the same as "many Koreans" and hence a necessity for "no Koreans" (should the goal of region locking be to give foreigners a better chance of winning).
Should both of them lose—and it's certainly within the realm of possibility that they even lose early—then could it be used as indication that foreigners have caught up with Korean imports and perhaps even the middle tier of Korean players? WCS Season 3 suggested as much, and GPL 2015 (iAsonu beat Flash; Snute and Lilbow beat Jaedong) provided further evidence. Obviously, the top tier is still out of reach as events like DH LotV showed. However, that foreigners are now competitive with that middle tier is a vast improvement, and two questions naturally follow. To what do we owe those improvements, and how do we further foster it?
The answer for WCS 2016, it seems, is to motivate foreigners with more opportunities. Yet will events like DH Leipzig, with only two Koreans, be the only gauge for progress throughout the year?
The potential debate after this event must of course come with a caveat: this is only one event. As much as we would like to draw conclusions from it, the fact remains that it cannot be studied in isolation.
Will this tournament stop people from arguing? Most definitely not. But at least we'll finally have a real glimpse of what 2016 may have to offer, and we'll have some more data to fuel our never ending polemic.
Proven Threats
With the new WCS system in play for the first time in 2016, things are about to get competitive in the foreign scene. Legacy is still a brand new game, and as we’ve seen from events in Korea so far, success in previous expansions has hardly guaranteed current success just yet. That said, there are certainly a few groups of players who look to be well ahead of the curve when Dreamhack kicks off on Friday:
WCS High Flyers
The Korean-less league format of 2015 certainly provided plenty of slots for foreigners to rise to the top of the WCS scene. While results were chaotic at times, there were two players who stood out in terms of consistency and results right at the end. While the memes have kept writing themselves so far after his controversial exit from BlizzCon, and lack of success at the GPL Invitational and HomeStory Cup XII, it’s hard to deny that Lilbow will certainly be a contender here. There’s a reason he’s one of the only two foreign players to ever win a premier title in Heart of the Swarm alongside Sen, and the ultra-aggressive games displayed in Legacy should theoretically suit his style. Alongside him, the other finalist of Season 3 is also in attendance. MaNa was equally impressive in his hometown WCS run—only the third foreigner to make a WCS finals after Stephano and Lilbow—and will be looking to bounce back from a similarly disappointing HSC exit in the Round of 16.
The Koreans
Meanwhile, the ever present threat of the touring Koreans will be descending on Germany as well. While lower in number than ever before—Jaedong and Polt absent, StarDust and ForGG seemingly retired—it’s still never wise to write them off. viOLet had a pretty awful 2015, perishing in the group stages in all three seasons, but if there’s anything that can reignite his fires, it’s a return to the weekender heavy format he excelled in during his 2012 heyday. Hydra, on the other hand, had an excellent 2015, culminating in a Ro.8 at BlizzCon, but the veneer of invincibility has worn thin after disappointing performances recently. He’ll be looking to set that right this weekend.
The Old Guard
However barren their recent runs of form may be, the old guard of Wings of Liberty just won’t call it quits. They’ve been through all the ups and downs that the scene has thrown at them, and come out on the other side ready for more. They might not be currently at the peak of the foreigner scene, but you can’t doubt the competitive spirit that once drove them there in the first place, and in such an unknown environment as Legacy of the Void, they could well take advantage of the uncertainty to rise again to the top.
Take HuK for instance. The Canadian protoss who once ruled over the foreign scene has been more than insistent about his ability to compete at the top once more. Despite failures at DH: Winter and HSC, he’s still a perennial threat, as his experience of winning multiple weekenders in years gone by will attest to. His fellow Canadian Scarlett is another player whose most competitive days are probably behind her—she herself has stated that she’s unlikely to attend the full set of WCS events this year—but if she makes a deep run this weekend, then who knows what the rest of 2016 could bring.
After a solid 2014, reaching the Round of 8 twice in the then Korean-packed WCS EU, only making WCS Premier once in 2015 must have been a disappointment to Welmu. With fresh support after joining Apocalypse esports, a renewed charge to the top of the foreign protoss scene must be a major goal for the year. Finally, while 2015 was a decent year for TLO, reaching the quarterfinals twice, there was still the sense of underachievement that has dogged him throughout his career. Again and again, he played impressively in the group stages, before floundering at the business end of the tournament; in his seventh year of Starcraft competition, he’ll be looking to finally reach that elusive premier final.
Legacy Heroes
While we haven’t seen nearly enough to get a clear picture of how players in Legacy are ranking up, it’s undeniable that there are some players who’ve clearly stood out from the rest. Most recently, MarineLorD’s stunning NationWars run and all-kill of Team Korea has been one of the most impressive set of games we've seen in the foreign scene for quite a while. He’s not the first foreigner to score a bizarre all-kill against a Korean team though, and backing up that one-off result with a convincing run here on LAN would go a long way to cementing his growing reputation as a top tier player.
FireCake, Nerchio and ShoWTimE have been the clear standouts of the past two foreign offline LotV events. ShoWTimE’s PvZ was thoroughly impressive in Jönköping, while also taking PartinG to the limit in disruptor wars. FireCake’s blend of aggression and passive play has looked the strongest among the EU zergs, while the speed of Nerchio’s rapid recovery from his long HotS layoff has been impressive to watch.
In addition, Snute arrives as the only foreign LotV champion so far, beating iAsonu in the GPL finals. His victory at HSC over MC in the quarterfinals promises much, as a player who’s often struggled to play at his best in the playoff stages against Korean opposition, and he’ll be looking to restake his claim for top billing in the foreign scene.
The Aspirants
The weekender should also be fertile ground for all the current aspirants as they vie for a chance to prove their worth and meet their potential. Others will try to reclaim prior glories and prove to the fans that they’re not past their primes. These are players who we’ve come to know as regular competitors, and they all want to justify our faith in them.
In the group stages the competition will be more chaotic, even haphazard, as the many hopefuls will try their best to advance. Some will have to fight tooth and nail through the first group stage, while others are spared somewhat, as they get a welcome headstart. Like with all DreamHacks, the weekend will be a grueling effort for all involved.
The Young
Young and hungry for success, these relative newcomers are looking for their first true big break. Maybe Leipzig will finally hold the key to their dreams.
Serral has been on the forefront of the European scene throughout 2015 and early 2016, but major titles have remained elusive. There’s certainly positive buzz surrounding him, but mostly what’s being discussed is his potential. He led Finland with solid play in Nation Wars III, even though was eventually overcome. Serral will need to be more focused going into Leipzig, because in the world of competitive gaming, the end results matter a whole lot. He needs to turn his potential into something more substantial in order to become a household name. And let’s not forget, Serral was one of the players to run the gauntlet of the qualifiers, along with fellow Nordic zerg Namshar.
In the summer of 2015, PtitDrogo showed some promise in Finland, only to fall to Losira in the finals of ASUS ROG. If 2015 had him truly burst onto the scene, maybe 2016 will have him leave his mark. Elazer has already taken to the new expansion, including good results in DreamHack Winter 2015 and HomeStory Cup XII. This time around he’s certainly looking to get out of the semifinals to make a run for the trophy. Kelazhur is another qualified player, giving him a needed edge over the others stuck in group stage 1.
The Restless
There are also some who have been on the tournament circuit for a long while now. They’re veterans of the scene, familiar to long-time viewers, still active, and rightly retain ambitions to reach as high as possible. So far their hard work hasn’t really paid off, but their passion hasn’t died down just yet.
Beastyqt has been a staple of the European scene for years, touring the various offline tournaments of the continent. While he’s yet to achieve major titles, there’s no denying that he’s a familiar face. One of the more successful players to come out of Ukraine, Bly has been #onfire recently, and he is certainly one to watch out for. The Dutch Terran uThermal has traditionally struggled with the group stages, but he’s a veteran of both WCS and DreamHack, and he’s having another go.
The Wild Cards
Leipzig will be a large tournament, with a massive group stage to start things off. It’s very possible that the next big foreigner hope will be in attendance, and surprise everyone by their performance. There’s always room for a breakout player to beat the odds, and seeing new names make a deep run through the brackets would be refreshing. Of course, it’s equally as possible that the future champion will stay under the radar for now, their level of skill not yet at the highest echelons of play. Here’s hoping against hope.
Serral and Uthermal are really being underestimated, Serral was a beast 2015 and his play during nationwars have been on point, yeah he lost eventually but well so did Innovation and PartinG. Uthermal has really shown great games in lotv, he was mediocre in hots 2015 but he has shown amazing form in lotv.
Regarding the old guard.... and no mention of Morrow, I am disappoint. Hoping for Sortof and Dayshi to strut some cool moves
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
I'm torn on this one.
I don't think Blizzard made the right call with excluding Koreans. Removing the highest level of competition is disappointing for players and viewers alike.
However, boycotting this tournament (and more to come) will most likely not result in Blizzard admitting they're wrong about it. If anything, viewer numbers dwindling will cause sponsors to reconsider their support of the SC2 scene. And losing big sponsors would be the death blow to many a pro team.
In the end, I guess I'll opt for the lesser of two evils. So, I'll watch the tournament and try to enjoy it to the fullest.
Serral even has his brother Protosser now with him to give support if needed. I'm sure Serral will do well.
I'm also expecting ZhuGeLiang to make his deepest run in a DreamHack yet, and also for Welmu to reach at least Ro8. Protosser's condition is more unknown since he is actually doing his military service now, so Ro32 should be a decent goal for him here.
On January 22 2016 17:59 WrathSCII wrote: Today will be the ultimate test for the viewership. Lets hope it will be good... otherwise... Blizzard literally shot itself in the knee...
I wouldn't overestimate it given the overall condition of the scene, hard to estimate how much a factor the new system is going to be. Maybe Sunday will tell us something - by then some of the best foreigners will have made deep runs and will ride the hype wave.
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
I'm torn on this one.
I don't think Blizzard made the right call with excluding Koreans. Removing the highest level of competition is disappointing for players and viewers alike.
However, boycotting this tournament (and more to come) will most likely not result in Blizzard admitting they're wrong about it. If anything, viewer numbers dwindling will cause sponsors to reconsider their support of the SC2 scene. And losing big sponsors would be the death blow to many a pro team.
In the end, I guess I'll opt for the lesser of two evils. So, I'll watch the tournament and try to enjoy it to the fullest.
uThermal vs Serral finals?
I fear that we are in a really bad spot. If we don't support tourneys they may fade away before any change can happen. If we support them by watching, they can continue in banning Korean players because the viewer numbers are OK.
I am really exited for this tournament and i think it is important to boost the foreign scene, but i also don't think that the ideal way of accomplishing this is to make all the big tournaments non-Korean only, i would much rather have had the system from last year with both WCS and big tournaments, and then simply being much stricter about WCS regionlocking.
But in the end, Starcraft 2 can survive with a diminished Korean region, but all the money and viewers are in the EU, and if those go away then the game is truly dead.
This is a test in viewership now? It will show that lotv is already out of steam (watched HSC?). WCS doesnt even matter at this point. Good luck to all players especially TLO.
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
You are entitled to your opinion but what this will lead to is tournaments excluding SC2 from their lineup of games. Like Dreamhack did for some of its tournaments when sc2 wasn't doing too well.
Boycott this and sc2 tournaments will wither and disappear way ahead of its time. The result will only strike at what games organizers choose to host and not at Blizzard´, its too late for them to do anything anyway even if they want they would have to wait a year to chance WCS. If they did wait a year after a boycott the game would actually be dead and there would be too late to do anything about it.
So by all means do what you can to kill off sc2, I for my part will do the opposite.
If the foreign scene grows strong and viewership goes up SC2 could grow into something bigger this year, which could lead to the World opening up to koreans again further down the road. Be positive not negative and do what you can for the scene
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
You are entitled to your opinion but what this will lead to is tournaments excluding SC2 from their lineup of games. Like Dreamhack did for some of its tournaments when sc2 wasn't doing too well.
Boycott this and sc2 tournaments will wither and disappear way ahead of its time. The result will only strike at what games organizers choose to host and not at Blizzard´, its too late for them to do anything anyway even if they want they would have to wait a year to chance WCS. If they did wait a year after a boycott the game would actually be dead and there would be too late to do anything about it.
So by all means do what you can to kill off sc2, I for my part will do the opposite.
If the foreign scene grows strong and viewership goes up SC2 could grow into something bigger this year, which could lead to the World opening up to koreans again further down the road. Be positive not negative and do what you can for the scene
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
You are entitled to your opinion but what this will lead to is tournaments excluding SC2 from their lineup of games. Like Dreamhack did for some of its tournaments when sc2 wasn't doing too well.
Boycott this and sc2 tournaments will wither and disappear way ahead of its time. The result will only strike at what games organizers choose to host and not at Blizzard´, its too late for them to do anything anyway even if they want they would have to wait a year to chance WCS. If they did wait a year after a boycott the game would actually be dead and there would be too late to do anything about it.
So by all means do what you can to kill off sc2, I for my part will do the opposite.
If the foreign scene grows strong and viewership goes up SC2 could grow into something bigger this year, which could lead to the World opening up to koreans again further down the road. Be positive not negative and do what you can for the scene
It's difficult for me because I sympathise with both camps on this, but one thing that we shouldn't do is criticise each other for their choices, whether they're deciding to watch WCS events or not.
On one hand, I watched literally thousands of maps of Starcraft last year, and I'd happily do it again; on the other, at some point you have to decide how much you value your time. Just as you shouldn't tell people that you must boycott WCS, you can't criticise someone else for deciding that they'd rather spend time doing something else. Watching Starcraft should be something you enjoy, rather than something you're forced into to "support the scene"; why else are we all committing hundreds and hundreds of hours a year to this game?
I don't dislike foreigners as much as i can show sometimes. They are good players, some can compete with KR. But i won't be watching because of the discrimination.
I know it's not DH fault. They go by the WCS rules of this year but i won't watch something that i find discriminating.
- Angouleme festival : "Discriminating towards woman" - Oscars "Discriminating towards black people" - WCS "Discriminating towards asian".
Very good article. It's really unfortunate to see that in order to be able to survive, the foreigners need to have their own tournament without Koreans. It shows not only that we are unable to compete at the same level, but we cannot reach it without this region lock, which saddens me even more.
One event won't be enough to say how successful this system is anyway, it needs some time. We'll have to see if Blizzard and the events can build a story over the year.
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
I'm torn on this one.
I don't think Blizzard made the right call with excluding Koreans. Removing the highest level of competition is disappointing for players and viewers alike.
However, boycotting this tournament (and more to come) will most likely not result in Blizzard admitting they're wrong about it. If anything, viewer numbers dwindling will cause sponsors to reconsider their support of the SC2 scene. And losing big sponsors would be the death blow to many a pro team.
Well, not exactly. You forget that there's an option for WCS Global Events including Koreans. So if DreamHack Leipzig is a huge flop, some organizers might reconsider their status in the WCS environment and Blizzard might start supporting those WCS Global Events same as they support the WCS Circuit Events.
Meaning: boycotting might just be the way to go if you're disappointed with the current format. I for one will not watch a game of it. Not really as an intended boycott, but I'm just not interested in foreigner only tournaments. I've never been and I probably won't ever be. For me, DreamHack, IEM etc. have always been hype because of the chance for some foreigners to upset some Koreans - and that's just gone now.
Sorry SC II, but it seems, every relationship has to end at one point, and this seems to be then between your weekenders and my viewing. Farewell, I know, you cant change and you know, I dont want to change... so maybe, again, in another time, but now it is over.
Foreigner hype- but can it be hype when there isn't any hefty competition around? "I beat Hydra" can't be used forever. The problem is like Dear said in his interview today. (When asked why ask for Adept nerf when he has better chance of winning GSL without it) "Nobody's going to respect a winner like that. The players won't want such a disgraceful victory either." The words "He won IEM 3 times" won't hold as much merit, because there weren't any top class Koreans in there.
*yawn* the downtime in between games plus the lack of high level SC2 is going to a bad way to start off 2016. Games are going to be over quickly then we'll have 40 minutes showing the schedule.
Not watching this tournament. Why should I be worried that dreamhack might drop sc2, no DH at all wouldn't be much worse than DH with no koreans. If I want to watch low level games I can just watch my friends play each other. Better boycotting this tournament than supporting discrimination.
On January 23 2016 00:30 Charoisaur wrote: Not watching this tournament. Why should I be worried that dreamhack might drop sc2, no DH at all wouldn't be much worse than DH with no koreans. If I want to watch low level games I can just watch my friends play each other. Better boycotting this tournament than supporting discrimination.
This reminded me Khaldor saying "and don't start on me with racism, I am from Germany, we invented that shit" (It was his video blog about racism in Korea)
On January 23 2016 00:30 Charoisaur wrote: Not watching this tournament. Why should I be worried that dreamhack might drop sc2, no DH at all wouldn't be much worse than DH with no koreans. If I want to watch low level games I can just watch my friends play each other. Better boycotting this tournament than supporting discrimination.
Yes because your friends are GM level players that can easily compete against Koreans as well... If you want to watch Koreans play, go watch PL or any Korean SC2 channel. If you're not watching the tournament then we don't need your opinion on why you don't want to watch. The whole point is to allow other foreigners get a chance - which I'm fucking glad. I'm glad that I get to see new players for once rather than the same shit. I hope you realize, without the foreign scene, the Korean scene is dead too.
On January 23 2016 00:36 ShoCkeyy wrote: If you're not watching the tournament then we don't need your opinion on why you don't want to watch.
I assume organizers would in fact want feedback as to why people aren't watching their tournaments. That's the only way they can find out how to improve, after all.
On January 23 2016 00:30 Charoisaur wrote: Not watching this tournament. Why should I be worried that dreamhack might drop sc2, no DH at all wouldn't be much worse than DH with no koreans. If I want to watch low level games I can just watch my friends play each other. Better boycotting this tournament than supporting discrimination.
Yes because your friends are GM level players that can easily compete against Koreans as well... If you want to watch Koreans play, go watch PL or any Korean SC2 channel. If you're not watching the tournament then we don't need your opinion on why you don't want to watch. The whole point is to allow other foreigners get a chance - which I'm fucking glad. I'm glad that I get to see new players for once rather than the same shit. I hope you realize, without the foreign scene, the Korean scene is dead too.
It's people like you that are killing SC2.
I want also have a chance at winning, they should ban any gm players from competing so I can win it too.
On January 23 2016 03:03 mario1996 wrote: OMG not even 20k viewer in the main stream........ interesting how much viewer will be tomorrow. I consider that viewershup as bad for now
It's slightly higher than last years DreamHack Valencia at the same time. But around this time at DreamHack Valencia, the viewership numbers kept rising quite a lot.
On January 23 2016 03:03 mario1996 wrote: OMG not even 20k viewer in the main stream........ interesting how much viewer will be tomorrow. I consider that viewershup as bad for now
It's slightly higher than last years DreamHack Valencia at the same time. But around this time at DreamHack Valencia, the viewership numbers kept rising quite a lot.
yes, but last year hots was old and now we have lotv almost brand new with almost no hype
On January 23 2016 03:03 mario1996 wrote: OMG not even 20k viewer in the main stream........ interesting how much viewer will be tomorrow. I consider that viewershup as bad for now
It's slightly higher than last years DreamHack Valencia at the same time. But around this time at DreamHack Valencia, the viewership numbers kept rising quite a lot.
yes, but last year hots was old and now we have lotv almost brand new with almost no hype
True. Compared to the LotV DreamHack at the end of last year (day 1), DreamHack Leipzig is ~10k behind on average. (but that was DreamHack Winter afterall. Generally speaking I'd say the current viewership numbers are... okay... but not more)
On January 23 2016 03:03 mario1996 wrote: OMG not even 20k viewer in the main stream........ interesting how much viewer will be tomorrow. I consider that viewershup as bad for now
It's slightly higher than last years DreamHack Valencia at the same time. But around this time at DreamHack Valencia, the viewership numbers kept rising quite a lot.
yes, but last year hots was old and now we have lotv almost brand new with almost no hype
True. Compared to the LotV DreamHack at the end of last year (day 1), DreamHack Leipzig is ~10k behind on average. (but that was DreamHack Winter afterall. Generally speaking I'd say the current viewership numbers are... okay... but not more)
Sounds like we have a good use case for all those viewbots that harassed poor Winter?
i see no need to watch it with out KR in them they are the best players in the world and if they are not going to be in it im not going to wast my time watching it. it just stupid not having them in it. because they are better then he foreigners. and the game will suck because of it. so no DH for me sadly i hate WCS now. it only got changed because the foreigners would stop bitching they got there asses handed to them when playing against KR.
On January 23 2016 00:30 Charoisaur wrote: Not watching this tournament. Why should I be worried that dreamhack might drop sc2, no DH at all wouldn't be much worse than DH with no koreans. If I want to watch low level games I can just watch my friends play each other. Better boycotting this tournament than supporting discrimination.
Yes because your friends are GM level players that can easily compete against Koreans as well... If you want to watch Koreans play, go watch PL or any Korean SC2 channel. If you're not watching the tournament then we don't need your opinion on why you don't want to watch. The whole point is to allow other foreigners get a chance - which I'm fucking glad. I'm glad that I get to see new players for once rather than the same shit. I hope you realize, without the foreign scene, the Korean scene is dead too.
It's people like you that are killing SC2.
Do you think there are any foreigners that can EASILY compete with Koreans ? Life has recently shown what he thinks about foreigners and their potential.
I congratulate you on calling greatest artists of this game "the same shit". Great attitude dude...
I will check the wiki after everything is over. That's the extent I care about this "tournament". For now, I will watch Ostkaka, Xixo, and the like. Too bad we can't have Kranich.
On January 23 2016 11:11 ProtossMasterRace wrote: I'm going to be really bold here and predict that even with the banning of koreans a korean is going to win.
That's pretty bold indeed. I'm not sure violet or Hydra are favored over Serral right now
Hydra and Violet must be quite happy to have 24k $ handed over to them for little effort Unfortunately for them due to the bracket they will only share 21k instead and one lucky foreigner is gonna make 8k instead of 5
On January 24 2016 00:57 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: why don't they have booths and play even the Ro8 in a large open room with barely anybody around? Oo
Most of the crowd watches CS:GO, when. mouz played, the main stage arena was completly full with viewers and people even standing next to catch a view. Only the final of SC II will be played on the real stage.
On January 23 2016 12:08 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Hydra and Violet must be quite happy to have 24k $ handed over to them for little effort Unfortunately for them due to the bracket they will only share 21k instead and one lucky foreigner is gonna make 8k instead of 5
Lets hope they didn't count their chickens before they hatched as much as you did .
On January 24 2016 00:57 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: why don't they have booths and play even the Ro8 in a large open room with barely anybody around? Oo
Most of the crowd watches CS:GO, when. mouz played, the main stage arena was completly full with viewers and people even standing next to catch a view. Only the final of SC II will be played on the real stage.
And people will be like "what? there was a sc2 tournament going on? when is CS:GO?".
Completely ridiculous that a premiere WCS event does not provide a real stage with booths and real area for the fans to enjoy the show. The small corner they had with a screen was completely overcrowded and had way too few seats. They didn't even put cameras and mics there to show it on the stream. I just think DH should not be allowed the be part of WCS with a standard like this. It's no longer just a 25k DH open tournament (even those always had a stage with full production from the ro8 so far), now it's a 50k WCS event and the standard should be higher. /rant
Edit: Just saw a post from Adebisi on Reddit that adresses this.
Adebisi
Hey guys, To be transparent here this event was planned before the WCS plans were fully finalized, and by then floor plans and schedules have to be set. We've done a lot to upgrade the show as we can with a new studio, dedicated interview area and more, but we can't change stage schedules/floor plans etc easily. For our next event in Austin, we'll have a full stage show as usual for the final bracket.
Sigh, so it all comes down to Blizzard's lack of scheduling and releasing all their information too late again. Please just hire Aeromi ffs. At least we can expect more out of DH for the rest of the year and I have to say that the extra interview area was awesome this time!
On January 22 2016 17:59 WrathSCII wrote: Today will be the ultimate test for the viewership. Lets hope it will be good... otherwise... Blizzard literally shot itself in the knee...
No, no matter the outcome, they did not "literally" shoot themselves in the knee. I think you are literally the dumbest poster on these boards.
On January 23 2016 12:08 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Hydra and Violet must be quite happy to have 24k $ handed over to them for little effort Unfortunately for them due to the bracket they will only share 21k instead and one lucky foreigner is gonna make 8k instead of 5
Lets hope they didn't count their chickens before they hatched as much as you did .
there are always those guys like you who safely shit on people's predictions after the stuff happened, so beautifully courageous.
It doesn't mean in any way they sucked, but they played sub-par, below expectations, they were the clear and indisputable favourites in any match vs any foreigner, despite not being anywhere close to the bottom players of GSL code A. It's confirmed by how hyped people get when a foreigner actually wins, showing that it is indeed an extraordinary, unlikely, feat.
oh shit i forgot about this and hey foreigners in the finals very cool, and hey terran in the semis, heard uthermal was good but damn very cool.Also wish TLO made it farther but shit happens. Now who to root for cause who know if the make another finals since there race is getting nerfed LOL. joking aside Sad i miss this tournament feels like yesterday I would have be up and watching form the very beginning to the very end even if there wasnt a terran in the finals but sadly not enough time/talent/ and honestly interest in sc2 anymore.
just dont feel that hype that i once did. and i feel so old saying this but I miss the good old days, mlgs,nasl, IPL, gsl.stacked dhs an iems
On January 22 2016 17:59 WrathSCII wrote: Today will be the ultimate test for the viewership. Lets hope it will be good... otherwise... Blizzard literally shot itself in the knee...
No, no matter the outcome, they did not "literally" shoot themselves in the knee. I think you are literally the dumbest poster on these boards.
On January 23 2016 12:08 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Hydra and Violet must be quite happy to have 24k $ handed over to them for little effort Unfortunately for them due to the bracket they will only share 21k instead and one lucky foreigner is gonna make 8k instead of 5
A very short sighted and disingenuous view of these two players of their skill and ability , when you say "little effort".
They most likely have clocked in more practice hours and training then any of the so called top foreigners in order to make it look like "little effort".
Koreans were not born with a keyboard and mouse and a copy of Starcraft,they take the game seriously and train hard to be the best they can be, they are professionals.
If only your foreigner heroes done the same thing perhaps they would be just as good.
Perhaps DH and WCS should call their circuit "amateur". This would facilitate the banning of Pro Koreans from participating
On January 23 2016 12:08 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Hydra and Violet must be quite happy to have 24k $ handed over to them for little effort Unfortunately for them due to the bracket they will only share 21k instead and one lucky foreigner is gonna make 8k instead of 5
A very short sighted and disingenuous view of these two players of their skill and ability , when you say "little effort".
They most likely have clocked in more practice hours and training then any of the so called top foreigners in order to make it look like "little effort".
Koreans were not born with a keyboard and mouse and a copy of Starcraft,they take the game seriously and train hard to be the best they can be, they are professionals.
If only your foreigner heroes done the same thing perhaps they would be just as good.
Perhaps DH and WCS should call their circuit "amateur". This would facilitate the banning of Pro Koreans from participating
It is hard to provide them with similar environment like the Korean one. The only way to do that is with Blizzard interaction on it, and it seems Blizzard is not interested in that. Not even the foreign teams are...
On January 22 2016 15:44 Incognoto wrote: Yeah I'm sorry as if I'm going to watch an event which discriminates Korean players. :/
the first false tournament of 2016, what can i say?
sorry if this isn't the type of positive remark you'd like to hear, but i think being silent about something unfair might just be the wrong call here
You are entitled to your opinion but what this will lead to is tournaments excluding SC2 from their lineup of games. Like Dreamhack did for some of its tournaments when sc2 wasn't doing too well.
Boycott this and sc2 tournaments will wither and disappear way ahead of its time. The result will only strike at what games organizers choose to host and not at Blizzard´, its too late for them to do anything anyway even if they want they would have to wait a year to chance WCS. If they did wait a year after a boycott the game would actually be dead and there would be too late to do anything about it.
So by all means do what you can to kill off sc2, I for my part will do the opposite.
If the foreign scene grows strong and viewership goes up SC2 could grow into something bigger this year, which could lead to the World opening up to koreans again further down the road. Be positive not negative and do what you can for the scene
So your opinion is - settle for this bullshit or kill sc2?
Pretend like we are watching world class games that have eliminated the highest level of competition ?
Sorry but I have a very opposite opinion - it's a disgrace what they are doing to the game - on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions - I hear what you are saying on the if you stop watching its' doomed tip - but supporting this is even worse in my opinion.
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused.
The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen?
I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point..
You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product.
On January 23 2016 12:08 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Hydra and Violet must be quite happy to have 24k $ handed over to them for little effort Unfortunately for them due to the bracket they will only share 21k instead and one lucky foreigner is gonna make 8k instead of 5
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
Wow, I really like your thought process! I think the same and are happy that blizzard is trying this route. I'm sad that this means we are losing the Koreans at those events. I think also an important point is that blizzard has tried a lot of formats previous to this WCS that didn't work for the foreign scene. It is not that this decision came out of nowhere. The foreign scene was in a bad spot with no new players, less tournaments, etc. This gives the foreign scene a change to develop what in my opinion is a good thing. Of course I don't know if they will succeed, but it is worth a shot
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused.
The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen?
I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point..
You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product.
Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point).
If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense.
You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar."
You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports.
To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL.
If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point.
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused.
The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen?
I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point..
You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product.
Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point).
If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense.
You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar."
You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports.
To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL.
If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point.
This is really sad - we can disagree - but you sound really desperate (and irrational based on the content of my post condemning discrimination vs. promoting it (your view)) - calling me a racist. The only racist thing going on here is your continued point of "Koreans are just better - so they shouldn't be allowed to ruin my fun!" bullshit. I must have missed the part where South Koreans are born with some unfair performance enhancing conditions that make them "just better".
Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
You aren't even arguing a point - I never said that lower level players shouldn't be able to have their own exclusive tournaments if they want to do that - it just shouldn't be treated as a world championship and have the associated benefits if it's not actually a world championship. "Koreans are clearly better" let's just use that mindset into the future and lower our expectations of ourselves - this is a sound approach for the evolution of the sport and the betterment and advancement of the game.
Nobody is arguing against having "tiers" - if the EU and NA players want to have their own version of minor league - that's totally fine - but call it what it is and don't advertise it like it's not SC2 on training wheels with the hardest opponents being ruled out of the game - and don't be surprised when viewership drops due to that.
I'll go back to my original comment that you refuse to acknowledge - let me know when the last time lowering the bar created a higher value product. Or feel free to repeat your idiocy again and talk about how I don't understand the concept of lower tiers or leagues.
Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
This is actually how the Olympics were for an extremely long time, and the popularity and product was great. You don't understand my point, the best US basketball players WERE excluded from the Olympics for a long time, so were professional hockey players, any professional athlete for that matter.
I'll go back to my original comment that you refuse to acknowledge - let me know when the last time lowering the bar created a higher value product. Or feel free to repeat your idiocy again and talk about how I don't understand the concept of lower tiers or leagues.
I already provided the example, the Olympics before allowing professionals and only amateurs, my example above which you failed to understand. Amateur sports provide a ton of amazing sport moments, college sports provide amazing moments, minor league sports provide amazing moments.
You asked for an example, I provided several, then said I didn't give an example, and continue to be narrow minded. It is just a label that is the WCS. Everyone understands that the best players and highest level is in Korea, nobody is acting like the European events have equal players. The old system was failing to grow the game in any meaningful way. Maybe a real attempt at regional growth for the short term, could help the overall game grow in the long term.
Or things could have stayed as they were and the whole thing could have just continued to die slowly as a few Koreans make a living and the rest quit.
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused.
The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen?
I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point..
You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product.
Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point).
If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense.
You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar."
You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports.
To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL.
If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point.
Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
Umm, I'm not sure if you realize that DH or even WCS Circuit is not really a "world championship". The World Championship(The Olympics, The World Cup) is at Blizzcon. Korea has 8 out of 16 spots there. In the mean time Korea has WCS Korea and the foreigners have WCS Circuit - lower leagues that give spots for the big World Championship. Nobody is saying that PtitDrogo is the best in the world. He is the best WCS Circuit player at the moment.
Personally I liked the tournament and the games were fun. The lower viewership numbers are expected short term result of the new system. Still, 35-40k is OK for DH.
People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving.
It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered.
World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament.
And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
on the same level as keeping African Americans out of the NFL and then calling the winners champions
That is a terrible analogy, because the NFL is the highest level of play. So it doesn't work.
If you wanted to compare, it would be like not allowing the best NFL players to go play in the Arena Football League during the off-season, which I might add their contracts would forbid.
You seem hell bent on hating this situation yet are so short sighted to see that many other professional environments do a very similar thing. There is the highest level, and there are levels leading to that. If you let the highest level people drop down and dominate it ruins the building blocks.
A better example to look at would be a sport like Nascar. They have their Sprint Cup, and the Xfinity Series(use to be the Busch Series). The Xfinity series use to be a great way to build new drives into the Sprint Cup, but about 10 years ago many of the best Spring Cup drivers started dropping down and racing both races each weekend. As fun as it was short term for the fans to get to see big names race in both series, it has pushed new drivers out of money situations and not allowed them to build a following. Nascar should have banned full time drivers from racing more than a few races per year in that other series so that up and coming drivers could win and get the exposure. Now many years later the sport struggles to bring in new faces.
What is funny, as people complain about the "quality" of games, is that typically at events like IEM and DH most of the matches were Foreigner v. Foreigner because the few Koreans would move through and that was the games that were left. So people watched then. I find it funny that just having a few Koreans present, even if not actually playing games, somehow make it a better event?
If you actually watched, this event had highly entertaining games, and plenty of high quality series.
I can only assume anyone who has complained about this system also refuses to watch anything but the Olympics, World Cup, Premier League, NBA, NFL, MLB. Because any leagues in those sports must be trash since they aren't the absolute best. I don't get why it can't be enjoyable to watch Koreans and watch foreigners, and then when they do cross paths it will be a real measure. I think it is dumb that whenever Koreans need money they just venture out to Europe quick then run back to Korea. If the Korea scene is struggling it shouldn't be the responsibility of DH and IEM's of the world to create events to supplement the Korean scene. Sounds to me like the issue is that Korea needs more tournaments and more money. Maybe this system will have a positive effect in creating more opportunities for Koreans in Korea.
LOL what?? Please explain again how the analogy doesn't fit? Banning the best players from the competition and celebrating the champions is the main idea in case you were confused.
The whole point is the "big names" aren't really big names.. they are local names. Throw a handful of the players who got eliminated from code A into this tournament and what would happen?
I can't tell if you are trolling - maybe this will have a positive influence on Korea?? Yes Yes and let's also ban immigrant students from taking jobs outside of their country - it just wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who never had a... oh wait - I must sound a bit ludicrous at this point..
You clearly have missed out on the idea here - do me a favor and try to think back to a single point in recorded history where lowering the bar created a higher value product.
Because your analogy is suggesting that you are banning the best players from the best league. That is your analogy(and borderline racist but that is besides the point).
If Koreans were banned from the GSL your analogy makes sense.
You ask for examples? For a long time the Olympics didn't allow professional athletes to participate, only Amateur athletes. I think you could easily argue that although the "pros" in the Olympics can be entertaining the best Olympic moments involved Amateur athletes and their opportunity to shine. So yeah, think of a time when "lowering the bar" paid off, well the 1980 Miracle on Ice team wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the current Olympic rules. Maybe the greatest sports story ever exists because of "lowering the bar."
You are narrow minded, and you are simply stating that the highest level players in the world SHOULD be allowed to travel anywhere and just take money. The Golden State Warriors can't finish their NBA season and then go play in Europe and win a championship. Manchester United doesn't play in the MLL. Separation of leagues exists in all sports.
To go one step further, you are saying you can't celebrate a championship if it doesn't have the "best players." Ok, so should a high school team never be excited? Should a minor league team never celebrate a championship? Who is suggesting this DH championship proves the best player ever? It is OK to win a championship and people with average intelligence understand the circumstance. Nobody is celebrating this as if he won the GSL.
If you only want to watch the highest level then FINE. You have places that the best of the best play. Just like someone who only wants to watch the NBA and not college basketball. But for me, I enjoy watching all levels, and I think creating a league where Koreans who are clearly better can't just swoop in randomly, take easy money and leave, is appropriate. Just like we have amateur golf championships that Pro Golfers can't play in. Just like there are rules in all sorts of competitions that create tiers. Stop acting like this doesn't exist in ALL levels of competition. And stop using horrible analogies that are not only borderline racist, but inaccurate to prove your point.
Follow your own logic path - is the USA excluded from basketball in the Olympics? No - they aren't - because if they were - the gold medal winners wouldn't have earned it. Anyone who takes themselves seriously in their profession wouldn't be proud to have won a world championship (WCS?) if the best teams in the world didn't play. I would venture to bet the foreign pros who are passionate about the future of the game think higher of themselves than to start their logic path with "Koreans are just better.. no fair pls exclude."
Umm, I'm not sure if you realize that DH or even WCS Circuit is not really a "world championship". The World Championship(The Olympics, The World Cup) is at Blizzcon. Korea has 8 out of 16 spots there. In the mean time Korea has WCS Korea and the foreigners have WCS Circuit - lower leagues that give spots for the big World Championship. Nobody is saying that PtitDrogo is the best in the world. He is the best WCS Circuit player at the moment.
Personally I liked the tournament and the games were fun. The lower viewership numbers are expected short term result of the new system. Still, 35-40k is OK for DH.
Yeah last time I checked WCS points were awarded for that DH that just happened no?
Do minor league baseball teams get a bid to the major league playoffs for going undefeated?
I'll stop after this - seems I'm aggravating people not my intent - all I can say is that we're going to have a blizzcon with 8 koreans and 8 foreigners that get roflstomped out of the first round - while 8 absolute monster koreans watch from home because they had to compete all year vs the absolute best because of this stupid rule - they have to be better and play harder competition to attain the same result because they are Korean - that makes no sense.
And for my Olympics man - are u really using an example of something that was eliminated from the system?? I said an example where lowering the bar raised the value - not an example of something that was gotten rid of because it makes no sense..google objectivism - removing the tough competition for the foreigners will have a negative impact on their skill - if we are resigned to give up and throw in the towel on getting to equal footing with Korea ok fine - just say we give up - get rid of blizzcon. If we want to ever have a chance to be on the same level as them - we need them in our field of competition - period.
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving.
It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered.
World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament.
And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol.
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving.
It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered.
World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament.
And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol.
Actually in sports like Golf and Tennis players that perform well do get placed/bids into events like the US Open, Wimbledon, etc. Every year the winner of the US Amateur golf open gets an invite to the US Open. So does winners of events that get invited to the Masters. So actually yeah LOL.
If you want to argue that Blizzcon/WCS Finals should invite more Koreans, or less foreigners that is fine. But the fact that they get invited based on performance in lower leagues DOES in fact happen with those examples provided. For a lot of sports this has helped grow the game in popularity, by getting people from other countries or areas less involved in the sport into the big event to promote it.
So again, the examples being used by people are mostly inaccurate, most sports do exactly what WCS is doing. If you don't like the execution of it, the naming, the overall format then fine. Can't argue with that. But tired of people using other sports as examples of why this system isn't good when in fact most sports do something that mirror this in some way with a tiered setup that helps promote growth in areas that aren't as strong as others.
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving.
It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered.
World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament.
And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol.
Actually in sports like Golf and Tennis players that perform well do get placed/bids into events like the US Open, Wimbledon, etc. Every year the winner of the US Amateur golf open gets an invite to the US Open. So does winners of events that get invited to the Masters. So actually yeah LOL.
If you want to argue that Blizzcon/WCS Finals should invite more Koreans, or less foreigners that is fine. But the fact that they get invited based on performance in lower leagues DOES in fact happen with those examples provided. For a lot of sports this has helped grow the game in popularity, by getting people from other countries or areas less involved in the sport into the big event to promote it.
So again, the examples being used by people are mostly inaccurate, most sports do exactly what WCS is doing. If you don't like the execution of it, the naming, the overall format then fine. Can't argue with that. But tired of people using other sports as examples of why this system isn't good when in fact most sports do something that mirror this in some way with a tiered setup that helps promote growth in areas that aren't as strong as others.
I dunno about golf but he was right about tennis. It's just the best performers who get invited to the end of year finals. US open and Wimbeldon aren't like Blizzcon, they're the WCS /GSL in his example.
On January 26 2016 00:56 showstealer1829 wrote: People keep talking about team sports as if that's relevant to SC2 and WCS. You're looking in the wrong place, I think the more apt argument is either Golf or Tennis. You have your Grand Slams/Majors, or in the case of Starcraft, Blizzcon/WCS Global events and you have your PGA Tour/ATP Tour events, or the WCS Circuit.
In the case of the WCS Circuit this is basically like saying to Novak Djokovic or Jordan Spieth "You're too good for the ATP Tour/PGA Tour because you've won too many Grand Slams/Majors so you're banned from playing", There would be a public outcry over that, but since it's all from one country it's okay? That's where the bullshit lies
Now it's easy to say "Oh they have WCS Korea, so that's okay" They have 4 tournaments total (Maybe a Kespa Cup or two but we don't know if they are providing WCS points yet), compared to how many of Dreamhack and IEM? Plus just to qualify to get any decent amount of points they have to beat a Djokovic every time, whereas the foreign guys have to beat either a Lleyton Hewitt, a player way past his prime and only hanging on to make as much money as he can. A Nick Kyrgios, a guy who is touted as a young gun but immediately folds when the pressure is put on or a Kei Nishikori, a guy who hasn't done it yet. OCCASIONALLY you might run into a Rafa Nadal, a guy who has been great but is on the downswing of his career but ultimately you're facing nothing and getting rewarded for it while the top guy get bilked, how is that fair at all?
Actually your analogy and example with tennis are right except the best tennis players ARE banned from certain events. There are lower tier tournaments that they can't/don't participate in.
Your analogy is wrong like many others because Koreans aren't being banned from the highest level, in fact the highest level got even more money and support. They are banned from the lower level, the WCS Circuit just like a pro tennis player can't play in a college tournament or lower league.
Your issue sounds like you are mad/upset that there aren't more local or lower level events in Korea. But whose fault is that? Nothing says there couldn't be more Korean events. The fact that you think the best players should venture out for a fast pay check then head home is silly. In most sports that would be called being a "ringer."
So yeah use Tennis as an example and it totally contradicts your point because Tennis is run very similar to the WCS current system. Just like many other sports are!
They're banned from smaller tournaments. Not the ATP tour, which is what WCS Circuit is.
And you didn't mention anything about the Golf reference. Your college reference is meaningless, European SC2 players are still pros, not on the same level but Pros.
Because the WCS Circuit and WCS Korea are now separated. Just like in tennis or golf there is the highest pro level. Then levels below that players could do well and maybe move up. With prize money so they can make a basic living to train and improve. Pro sport leagues understand people need to make something of a living to dedicate their lives to training full time. So they fund those leagues just like the WCS circuit can create a culture where players can really dedicate to training full time without going broke or watching any chance at financial stability taken by Korean Pros flying in winning and leaving.
It's literally the exact same setup we have in this. The ATP has the world tour(aka WCS Korea) and then a challenger league, then a futures league. It's all called the ATP, but it is tiered.
World Tour players can't compete in the lower leagues. They can't just randomly drop down to win a tournament.
And if you are a B level Korean that would be the best in the WCS circuit there are options to try and play there if you'd want but players have decided they want to stay in Korea and be a part of the infrastructure there.
ATP doesn't seed 8 players from Challenger/Futures into its finals lol.
Actually in sports like Golf and Tennis players that perform well do get placed/bids into events like the US Open, Wimbledon, etc. Every year the winner of the US Amateur golf open gets an invite to the US Open. So does winners of events that get invited to the Masters. So actually yeah LOL.
If you want to argue that Blizzcon/WCS Finals should invite more Koreans, or less foreigners that is fine. But the fact that they get invited based on performance in lower leagues DOES in fact happen with those examples provided. For a lot of sports this has helped grow the game in popularity, by getting people from other countries or areas less involved in the sport into the big event to promote it.
So again, the examples being used by people are mostly inaccurate, most sports do exactly what WCS is doing. If you don't like the execution of it, the naming, the overall format then fine. Can't argue with that. But tired of people using other sports as examples of why this system isn't good when in fact most sports do something that mirror this in some way with a tiered setup that helps promote growth in areas that aren't as strong as others.
I dunno about golf but he was right about tennis. It's just the best performers who get invited to the end of year finals. US open and Wimbeldon aren't like Blizzcon, they're the WCS /GSL in his example.
His response was so bizarre. "Actually, that's not how tennis works." "Yes it is how golf works."
EPT
Lilbow will certainly be a contender here. There’s a reason he’s one of the only two foreign players to ever win a premier title in Heart of the Swarm alongside Sen, and the ultra-aggressive games displayed in Legacy should theoretically suit his style. Alongside him, the other finalist of Season 3 is also in attendance. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquidpro.com/staff/Chaobo/TLpro2015/0IhwgRy__Imgur.gif)
viOLet had a pretty awful 2015, perishing in the group stages in all three seasons, but if there’s anything that can reignite his fires, it’s a return to the weekender heavy format he excelled in during his 2012 heyday. 
MarineLorD’s stunning NationWars run and all-kill of Team Korea has been one of the most impressive set of games we've seen in the foreign scene for quite a while. He’s not the first foreigner to score a bizarre all-kill against a Korean team though, and backing up that one-off result with a convincing run here on LAN would go a long way to cementing his growing reputation as a top tier player.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chaobo/TLpro2015/Snute2.jpg)
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