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On January 16 2016 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf. What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag? Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with. WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game. RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN
Then Protoss would need Tempest earlier in tech tree or something along what the BW arbiter did (insta statis?) or Liberator would need to go further the tech tree (Fusion core?). Maps with more paths would maybe work too. I hope you realize that liberators + sieged tanks combo is kinda hard already to deal with if the Terran goes about it slowly never unsieging too much at a time (apart from making it a boringfest), if we did what you want without changing something else Terran would probably be able to make absolute forbidden zones that you could never ever hope to prevent.
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Agree with this update. TvT will be back to normal soon and even better.
But "Tank" should be strong like its name. More damage and more mineral/gas. So Zerg won't be A move into Terran composition directly.
Also I want to remind Blizzard about Liberator vs all, nydus worm vs T, Disruptor vs P and Z...
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If they remove tank pickup they're going to need to do something for TvZ to hold roach/ravager pushes. They're already pretty hard to hold if committed even with tanks and medivacs. I do agree though that flying tanks is somewhat ruining TvT.
I wonder about possibly either making Ravagers armored or giving Tanks an upgrade @ tech lab to move some of their bonus armored damage into global damage (would also help vs Adepts) ... but that may screw up TvT and turn it back into Tank/Viking wars. But maybe with boosted medivacs and overall increased mobility of LotV that wouldn't happen.
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On January 17 2016 00:12 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf. What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag? Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with. WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game. RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN Then Protoss would need Tempest earlier in tech tree or something along what the BW arbiter did (insta statis?) or Liberator would need to go further the tech tree (Fusion core?). Maps with more paths would maybe work too. I hope you realize that liberators + sieged tanks combo is kinda hard already to deal with if the Terran goes about it slowly never unsieging too much at a time (apart from making it a boringfest), if we did what you want without changing something else Terran would probably be able to make absolute forbidden zones that you could never ever hope to prevent.
Attack speed should be reduced as well, so a solid surround etc should work well too.
I mean, offcourse balance would be messed up somewhat, I don't want a boringfest either ^^
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On January 16 2016 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf. What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag? Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with. WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game. RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN
Although this is a change that probably all would like to see (because it makes sense and is more like BW) but its never going to happen. Blizzard had more then 5 years to make it happen and they didnt. They are not going to change their mind now. They are already going further away from this with tankivacs and liberators.
I would rather see a strong community backed balance mod that provides an alternative balancing for SC2. (no, I am not talking about Starbow which is not SC2 in my opinion)
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On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now.
Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
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On January 17 2016 01:43 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now. Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
They do not listen, except when it furthers their own agenda. It is mostly a PR stunt.
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This is SC2, not BW, so please don't say something like:"more like BW". There are so many interesting things the community has asked for many years. Beta testing and balance test map are good choices to let the community test the ideas and co-operate better with the dev team. But what did they do? IGNORING as much as they can!!! From WOL till now, DK and his crew have done a lot of wrong things to this game in their way. If they still want to make their own game rather than pushing Starcraft back to its golden era, i wish Kespa would made their own SC2 mod and run their own tournament on it.
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On January 17 2016 01:52 Thinh123456 wrote:
i wish Kespa would made their own SC2 mod and run their own tournament on it.
That is actually a very interesting idea. I wonder why they didnt do that yet. Maybe blizzard wouldnt allow it and take away their rights to use SC2 to make money.
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I guees one of the major problems is the speed in which Terran was and is nerfed, almost every terran unit was and is nerfed in weeks. Of course we had the GomTvT era that lasted late 2010 and mid 2011(rax, bunker, tank, scv, stim, ghost- emp and snipe-, thor, bc, reaper were nerfed in those days). When a race is dominating, never saw later on a race being nerfed so hard and so fast. After that, ling infestor became OP with the queen buff(2012 - 2013). DK did nothing and starcraft 2 lost a looot of its playerbase. In HotS there was the blink all in era too and GomPvP, while the hellbat nerf went right away in the start, the blink tech research took months to enter. Now in legacy, the adept + warprism is a problem since Beta, but blizzard waits, waits a lot for nerfing protoss.
While I agree that some lategame scenarios are rare and need to be looked more careful, because early and mid game play some roles, its simply not the case with early game strats that even after defending well, the player is still behind while the other has expanded ahead of him.
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Thanks God so much for the tank change, at last !!! I've been asking for it forever.
I'm happy they agree PvT is broken now, and I hope they take quick action to deal with the WP + adepts bullshit and monitor the situation later if liberator turns out to be broken too.
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I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing.
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On January 17 2016 01:43 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now. Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
Kinda hollow to start listening to what was being shouted at you after running the guy over with your car.
The problems of both the Warp Prism and the Adept have been mentioned over and over again since the beginning of the LotV beta by pretty much every Terran and a bunch of Protoss players as well. It's been said by pros over and over in interviews. The fact that it took Seed doing what he did to finally get Blizzard's attention is pathetic.
As a side note, it's damn funny to think about all the great minds around here who were claiming there was nothing wrong with Adepts in TvP back when they had 180 hp or something.
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On January 17 2016 01:43 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now. Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
I don't think you understood me.
David Kim literally doesn't understand what Starcraft needs. The balance/design team is clueless. So if they lead, which they did for years, we got garbage like Slag Pits, the Warhound, and the 1-1-1 dominating for long periods of time. They don't know their game, don't understand what it needs, and don't have a direction in mind for where Starcraft needs to go.
Now, they are just polling the community, which isn't good either. Just doing whatever the community says is the easy and lazy way out. Blizzard can just blame the community when the game isn't good.
A mentally of elitism is necessary for making a quality game, but it has to be combined with a quality design team who knows what they are doing, understands the direction they want to take their game, and gets it there. Honestly, if you've ever designed a game, this isn't rocket science.
It is just basic leadership. The same kind of skills that make a great coach on a team. Blizzard, like a coach, needs to understand what they have and where they need to take it to be successful. But they can't, SC2's peak was long ago, and it shouldn't have been, it should be still be the premier E-Sport. But the failure is Blizzard's alone. And if this was a team, the record they'd have over the past 4 years would be so bad, you know management would fire the coach.
It is time to fire the coach. David Kim needs to go.
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They should change the costs of the tank to the costs of the thor and buff it accordingly (also increase supply costs).
Then nerf the thor and reduce his supply costs and dmg etc.
So you can spam thors and put a few strong tanks which actually feel powerful.
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On January 17 2016 02:48 fickazzz wrote:
They should change the costs of the tank to the costs of the thor and buff it accordingly (also increase supply costs).
Then nerf the thor and reduce his supply costs and dmg etc.
So you can spam thors and put a few strong tanks which actually feel powerful.
Honestly, the problem has always been hard counters and map sizes for the Tank. Tanks were awesome when maps were small; tanks dominated Steppes of War. But now maps are huge, so positional units are naturally weaker.
Secondly, the Viper can spam blinding cloud all over tanks or abduct them with ease. Making Tanks super strong doesn't stop that from happening. Positional play can't exist with units like the Viper, they too easily make a good position a bad one. Forcefields and Vortex have a similar effect. I honestly can't fathom why Blizzard doesn't understand this, it is quite simple.
Warfare in general is more about the timing and positioning prior to battle than the battle itself. Starcraft is trying to make the game about the battle itself, when it should be about everything that leads up to the battle.
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I like these changes, I think DK and the balance team are doing things the right way. However I have some worries and possible answers to them.
Seige tanks go into tank mode when picked up
1. Excellent for TvT positioning will matter more and comebacks will be more possible because defensive positions mean more.
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
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3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
But wouldn't that make them way worse in ZvP? immos would deal easily with both, roaches and ravagers.
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On January 17 2016 03:10 ClaudeSc2 wrote:
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
It's not really hard to tell, adepts teleport on top of the bio army/tanks. It has the potential to all but remove the tank in the matchup.
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On January 17 2016 03:10 ClaudeSc2 wrote:
I like these changes, I think DK and the balance team are doing things the right way. However I have some worries and possible answers to them.
Seige tanks go into tank mode when picked up
1. Excellent for TvT positioning will matter more and comebacks will be more possible because defensive positions mean more.
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
Well ravagers are needed vs liberators, so if you move ravagers to Lair their anti ground mode needs to be moved to fleet beacon.
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EPT
