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Didn't see this anywhere on TL so figured i'd put it up.
Dayvie
Developer
Posts: 176
We just wanted to quickly update you guys on a few things before the weekend:
1. We agree with your feedback on PvT.
2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
3. We're currently aiming for next week to release the balance test map.
4. We would love to get everyone's help in aggressively testing these changes so that we can quickly turn around a balance update as early as the week after next.
Thank you for keeping the discussions really focused on the most critical topics this week
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20418543041
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Now that the tank is regaining its identity hopefully its damage will be buffed in the future.
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"We agree with your feedback on PvT" - That generic answer! :p What was the feedback you agreed on, and how are you going about fixing it Dayvie?!?
Will be interesting to see how they go about changing the way tank pickup functions. I see the tank changing back into tankmode while hanging out of the medivac while preventing the medivac from picking anything up while it transforms. That will make a little bit of a risk-decision dynamic in knowing your medivac is tied up with a tank before you can pick anything else up.
Hopefully they will clear the proposed changes up and im interested in seeing what they have in store.
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lol David scrambling to fix shit after that Seed interview. Wowzers. Dude did not hold back at all.
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On January 16 2016 10:39 TronJovolta wrote:
lol David scrambling to fix shit after that Seed interview. Wowzers. Dude did not hold back at all.
They say David's heart grew 4x bigger that day.
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Seed doing gods work.
Changing the tank pickup mechanic will make them pretty useless trying to help hold back ravagers now wont it?
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As I protoss I agree adepts make terrans irrelevant, but are we also going to adress that zerg walks over protoss just as protoss walks over terran? The game right now is in a hard rock-paper-scissors state and by shifting PvT winrates as well we will end up in a game where protoss will have no good matchups at all. Current PvZ winrates are abysmal at 42%, compared to that the 48% of TvP is not even that bad.
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I hate the tankivac altogether, but at the same time would like to see a straight up damage buff to siege mode. Maybe revert the damage to 40 vs light instead of 35, and make the upgrades scale better vs light only. They do pretty well as is vs armored units.
I'd just overall prefer the BW siege tank, with higher dmg output but overkill, which allows tanks to perform stronger in small harass groups but still limiting their huge deathball potential. Also makes zealot bombs way stronger!
Not saying that would actually balance it, just improve the design. You'd likely need to tweak from there, but I feel it would improve so much.
I would love a liberator nerf, but it's pretty widely accepted without some alternate buff Terran would be shit if you just straight up nerfed them.
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Seed is a protoss player with a soul...
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Solid change, I hope they buff the tank a bit in exchange to help mech. Otherwise good change.
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what would happen if David Kim did perfect job and everyone agrees balance is perfect. Does he get fired then because Blizzard don't need him anymore? 
Perfect world where all is balanced and everyone happy 
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Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it.
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On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it.
What I find very strong is Marine+ Marauder + Banshee to easy defend Roach Ravager.
I think once terran learn to read drone timings they are getting better at defending roach ravager pushes.
Often when I play versus Terran they don't scout and then I am at his doorstep and he is standing in cold shower. Terran build 50 scv, but zerg stopped at 30 and built units to attack.
When scout no problem. I always scout as much as possible. Information is power ! 
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Another thing that would be correct is removing that WP range pickup but give the speed upgrade from the start. The game needs to be simpler.
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On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it.
You can still pick them up tho.
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In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table.
It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway 
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On January 16 2016 11:28 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. You can still pick them up tho.
Yeah but then it takes 5+ seconds to unsiege and resiege, and by that time ravagers are on top of your production.
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On January 16 2016 11:33 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:28 Lexender wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. You can still pick them up tho. Yeah but then it takes 5+ seconds to unsiege and resiege, and by that time ravagers are on top of your production.
You don't need to unsiege.
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On January 16 2016 11:35 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:33 vult wrote:On January 16 2016 11:28 Lexender wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. You can still pick them up tho. Yeah but then it takes 5+ seconds to unsiege and resiege, and by that time ravagers are on top of your production. You don't need to unsiege.
In the change picking up tanks would unsiege them.
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On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway
In my honest opinion I disagree with you on this. Currently terran has problems with adept. That why many protoss win.
Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that.
Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg.
I think when they nerf adept then Terran will be best race by far in my humble opinions.
Imho Protoss takes big hit then. Imho Zerg is slightly favored versus Protoss, because of map pool. After patch then balance maybe
T>P<Z<T
We need to see, but I think meditank nerf is important to restore balance as a whole. If tankidrop nerf not happen then balance not good in all together.
I don't mean rude. I think is truth
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On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg.
No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays.
If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that.
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On January 16 2016 11:35 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:33 vult wrote:On January 16 2016 11:28 Lexender wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. You can still pick them up tho. Yeah but then it takes 5+ seconds to unsiege and resiege, and by that time ravagers are on top of your production. You don't need to unsiege.
Still pick them up - wtf is that going to do to help me if they land unsieged - die slightly later? If they go ahead and make this change then they will have to nerf Ravagers in relation to tanks, for instance by making them armored.
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Problem with tank medivacs and Adepts is more - both races (especially protoss) - need these units to stay on even footing in terms of win % because other areas are lacking severely.
Tank drop is one of the (if not the most) powerful mechanics in the game at the moment.
If you see Medivac + tank as one expensive unit - its a flying unit that has 14 range - flies - deals high damage - deploys in 1 second - is the fastest unit in the game for a short time - heals your infantry, all for 250 / 200 . Compare that to the current collosus.
The reason terran suffers vs protoss, is that the tank is just inherantly bad vs protoss - therefore terran doesnt do well in the matchup.
The adept and Warpprism is similar, it wins 30% games by itself, you only need another 20% from somewhere else (oracles, dts) to hit the "balanced" 50% mark.
All this doenst mean the game is in a good place though.
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On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't.
Oh you are right I did mistake.
I should say "Most people agree on that". People told me before that I should not use" all" and "everyone", because there is always some person who has opinion difference and he has right to do so !
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Pretty subtle way to nerf terran, pretend that you're trying to help them in TvT. Logically sound, logically needed and I really love how they presented it, it's most likely going to go completely unnoticed.
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On January 16 2016 11:52 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty subtle way to nerf terran, pretend that you're trying to help them in TvT. Logically sound, logically needed and I really love how they presented it, it's most likely going to go completely unnoticed.
But that is good how they do it
Look at it this way :
Currently most terran player a bit annoyed because of adept so strong versus them.
Most terran happy with TvZ balance because terran slightly favored.
After they nerf adept then terrans don't fear adept
If they don't nerf tankivac then terran probably strongest race without compition.
David kim realized that terran maybe too strong then and very small slighty minute minuscle tank nerf to prevent total terran dominance.
I think David Kim is doing great job with this update. He brings balance and makes TvT a better matchup. I think it is very clever
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On January 16 2016 11:52 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty subtle way to nerf terran, pretend that you're trying to help them in TvT. Logically sound, logically needed and I really love how they presented it, it's most likely going to go completely unnoticed.
I wonder where we have heard this refrain before, about some change to help TvT that totally wrecked Terran in other match ups. Seems familiar.
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On January 16 2016 11:56 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:52 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty subtle way to nerf terran, pretend that you're trying to help them in TvT. Logically sound, logically needed and I really love how they presented it, it's most likely going to go completely unnoticed. I wonder where we have heard this refrain before, about some change to help TvT that totally wrecked Terran in other match ups. Seems familiar.
My post wasn't sarcasm. I love the change, and I do believe that it will go completely unnoticed. I also believe that it's the only way they could address the massively logical concern of "hey, don't you think if you nerf the strategy that wins the large majority of the games of a 48% race, this race is likely going to get shit on?" without raising any shields.
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On January 16 2016 12:02 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:56 DeadByDawn wrote:On January 16 2016 11:52 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty subtle way to nerf terran, pretend that you're trying to help them in TvT. Logically sound, logically needed and I really love how they presented it, it's most likely going to go completely unnoticed. I wonder where we have heard this refrain before, about some change to help TvT that totally wrecked Terran in other match ups. Seems familiar. My post wasn't sarcasm. I love the change, and I do believe that it will go completely unnoticed. I also believe that it's the only way they could address the massively logical concern of "hey, don't you think if you nerf the strategy that wins the large majority of the games of a 48% race, this race is likely going to get shit on?" without raising any shields.
Theres no way the change will go unnoticed, I know you have to keep the "anti-terran" act for consistency sake, but its a pretty big change.
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I like that the guy who posted it said
I don't play Terran, so my opinion is near worthless.
I absolutely hate the flying medivac changes but honestly this shows how rushed the beta was even when they were going to try new things. As a Terran player since WoL's release, there's really nothing different about the race and how it plays. Everything that's added is just a continuation of what we've had before and I think the design of some of these units are to blame. It wasn't fun having oracles kill whatever light units were in my base in the start of HoTS and it sure as hell isn't fun having Adepts warped in to kill all my workers. Just like I'm sure it's not fun to have a giant flying death ray that can be reactor'd out.
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Oh god, I just saw this and was about to post it here.
Reddit balancing SC2. :/
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Removing tankivac will cause early game TvZ issues, but whatever, it might be worth it, because its so retarded in TvT
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Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy?
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On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it.
EXACT !!!!!
Don't do it !!!!
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On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy?
Totally agree.
I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless.
Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot.
I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now.
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are you kidding me?
someone tell me this is a bad joke
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NERF ADEPTS AND PHOTON OVERCHARGE and don't need a balance test map for that.
That's broken for Terrans ans Zerg to play vs.
Protoss are way to strong to defend and to harass early game. That's not fair at all.
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Nobody even plays the balance test maps. How about making unranked mode be balance test games?
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The next question is how many medivac slots is the tank going to get if it's not seiged after the pickup?
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Uhhh, please don't nerf sieged tank pickup! It may be bad for mech in TvT, but it's become an essential part of TvZ, and even some TvP. Of course I guess it could work if tanks were buffed to compensate, but it will be hard to think of a buff that makes up for the mobility granted by tankivacs.
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I agree with this change from a design perspective at least. It might require some rebalancing alongside it though.
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wow david kim backpedaling ... Finally someone has spoken up.. lets see what he changes now
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I do wish there was some comment on ZvP.
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I mean, announcing those test maps is fun and all, but given that the Korean pros only have two seasons to work with, and most of the money and qualifiers have already been lost partially due to poor balancing, feels like they are just really late overall...
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On January 16 2016 15:19 Empirimancer wrote:
Uhhh, please don't nerf sieged tank pickup! It may be bad for mech in TvT, but it's become an essential part of TvZ, and even some TvP. Of course I guess it could work if tanks were buffed to compensate, but it will be hard to think of a buff that makes up for the mobility granted by tankivacs.
Dunno, make it so A FUCKING TANK NAILED TO THE GROUND BECAUSE THE RECOIL IS THAT MASSIVE deals more than 35 damage to a tiny zergling or an ugly Ravager.
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On January 16 2016 11:27 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. What I find very strong is Marine+ Marauder + Banshee to easy defend Roach Ravager. I think once terran learn to read drone timings they are getting better at defending roach ravager pushes. Often when I play versus Terran they don't scout and then I am at his doorstep and he is standing in cold shower. Terran build 50 scv, but zerg stopped at 30 and built units to attack. When scout no problem. I always scout as much as possible. Information is power !
Then the game would get very boring and no one will play it.
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On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that.
Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs.
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On January 16 2016 15:19 Empirimancer wrote:
Uhhh, please don't nerf sieged tank pickup! It may be bad for mech in TvT, but it's become an essential part of TvZ, and even some TvP. Of course I guess it could work if tanks were buffed to compensate, but it will be hard to think of a buff that makes up for the mobility granted by tankivacs.
Mom, don't take away our toys!  The siege tank will still be better in Legacy of the Void than it was in Heart of the Swarm even if its synergy with the medivac is dialed down a bit. Of course the game itself has also changed to become more dynamic, which does not play to the unit's strength. Nevertheless, any sort of absurdly strong aspect of a race will quickly become indispensable, but that's no excuse to be circumspect, especially this early in the game. It's better to identify these things now and change them now instead of waiting until balance has stabilized. We already know it's problematic, so why not address it?
And if siege tanks are now necessary to deal with disruptors and ravagers, I'd remind you that those units are also still in flux and subject to frequent change / evaluation. This sort of mentality of we need this broken unit to deal with the other broken units, so Blizzard pls don't touch it will just result in the game becoming perpetually worse.
On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway
Typically one out of three games you play will be a mirror while balance problems are usually not that significant on the ladder. Do you want to design the game purely around pro level play or is the integrity of the game for the other 99+% of players also relevant?
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So, they want to do with the Siege Tank what should have been done while in alpha phase. Such reactivity.
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I agree with everything Blizzard is doing, the tankivac needs to go it has completely destroyed mech in TvT.
Since mech struggles in all matchups I suggest either
a) Increase tank damage in siege mode
b) Decrease the cost of factories
Adept change is of course necessary,it should have been done a long time ago.
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France12761 Posts
Wtf if you remove tankivac TvZ is gonna be broken and mech is the most boring and useless style ever so don't make a change hoping to bring it up :/.
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SeeD! Couldn't you have waiting with revealing this shit! Damnit man!
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Test map next week.
Possible changes maybe week after that.
No mention of any other changes at all.
That is 2+ weeks of the game still being in piss poor state. Are they still on holiday break or something?
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Do you remember when they promised us that they would have an aggressive stance on balance? DKim is just doing pr, at this point it's pretty much obvious that they don't really care and that the community updates are just a way to cam down the player base.
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I like the change ,tvz will take a hit but tankivacs are so effin stupid in tvt it needs to be changed , I would like to have a dmg buff to the tanks and a reduced time to siege up ,to better defend ravagers after a hot bile tank pickup
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Without changing ravagers or buffing the tank, .. I don't know. I agree that it's a stupid mechanic and should be removed, but it also should be said that terran relies on it at the moment.
And yes, it makes TvT stupid. Removing it without compensating for the other match ups though is dumb.
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ok siege tank medivac makes tvt a whole different match up (not so bad once you get used to it actually) but i'm more concerned about tvz where it looks to me that siege medivac is vital against ravagers
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"look after a big beta we finally found out that lifting siege tank in siege mode and dropping it in siege mode is not exactly the idea of a siege tank, plus it sucks"
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On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs.
This works two ways.
The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are:
- After a failed all in
- When Zerg is rushing Hive
Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently.
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On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it.
Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know
hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked
strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf.
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This balance test map should be out today so any possible changes can be implemented a week from now.
-1 damage to Adept is a no brainer. What has to be tested during this time, is if the chronoboosting +1 attack upgrade with the attack timing still makes it OP.
If Tankivac is changed (I would completely remove it), then giving Ravager armored tag should be also looked at at the same time.
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On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf.
What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag?
Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with.
WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game.
RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN
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On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently.
No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs.
It's not rocket science.
Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit.
Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb.
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On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb.
I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though.
TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY:
Reapers > Anything
Lingspeed > Anything
Hellion phase seems even
Roach Ravager > Anything
Medivacs/Stim > Anything
Ultralisk > Anything
Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now)
Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp
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i hope david kim gets fired. this person has no clue what hes doing at all.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 16 2016 20:48 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb. I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though. TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY: Reapers > Anything Lingspeed > Anything Hellion phase seems evenRoach Ravager > Anything Medivacs/Stim > AnythingUltralisk > Anything Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now)
Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp
Bolded parts are absolutely not true.
"stim timings" are so WoL
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On January 16 2016 21:13 GreenHealing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:48 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb. I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though. TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY: Reapers > Anything Lingspeed > Anything Hellion phase seems evenRoach Ravager > Anything Medivacs/Stim > AnythingUltralisk > Anything Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now)
Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp Bolded parts are absolutely not true. "stim timings" are so WoL
Ok. Thanks for that extensive elaboration as well!
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On January 16 2016 21:23 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 21:13 GreenHealing wrote:On January 16 2016 20:48 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb. I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though. TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY: Reapers > Anything Lingspeed > Anything Hellion phase seems evenRoach Ravager > Anything Medivacs/Stim > AnythingUltralisk > Anything Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now)
Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp Bolded parts are absolutely not true. "stim timings" are so WoL Ok. Thanks for that extensive elaboration as well!
You gave pretty extensive elaboration as well!!!
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Nice.
There should be a bit of a dmg buff to the Tank to compensate.
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On January 16 2016 21:25 GreenHealing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 21:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 21:13 GreenHealing wrote:On January 16 2016 20:48 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb. I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though. TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY: Reapers > Anything Lingspeed > Anything Hellion phase seems evenRoach Ravager > Anything Medivacs/Stim > AnythingUltralisk > Anything Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now)
Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp Bolded parts are absolutely not true. "stim timings" are so WoL Ok. Thanks for that extensive elaboration as well! You gave pretty extensive elaboration as well!!!
I gave an elaboration on my statement, not an elaboration on said elaboration. Go to reddit for easy oneliners and snarky remarks.
Start here, this is where DK goes!
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/502231-community-feedback-update-january-15?page=2#32
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On January 16 2016 20:48 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb. I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though. TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY: Reapers > Anything Lingspeed > Anything Hellion phase seems even Roach Ravager > Anything Medivacs/Stim > Anything Ultralisk > Anything Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now) Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp
Everything seems to do too much damage.
#terrribleterrible
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On January 16 2016 21:38 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 21:25 GreenHealing wrote:On January 16 2016 21:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 21:13 GreenHealing wrote:On January 16 2016 20:48 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 20:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 20:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 18:04 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:
[quote]
Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that.
Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg.
No we don't. Korean terrans are all in-ing against Korean zergs rushing to hive tech. That's the primary relationship right now. It's teetering on the edge a blord/infestor sequel should zergs figure out how to consistently get there. Nerfing the tankivac pretty much removes the ability for terran to be out on the map against roach/ravager. It massively harms the ability to defend against roach/ravager timings and even nydus plays. If the predominant philosophy on TvZ late game is going to be 'don't let them get there' then you have to have ways to prevent them from 'getting there.' The tankivac is a huge part of that. Hmm guess we are seeing different games, either zerg allins or has to rush hive to have a chance of winning, since the midgame is really terran favored and zerg has no reliable way to deal with speedvacs. This works two ways. The midgame is Terran favored because the only midgames we see are: - After a failed all in - When Zerg is rushing Hive Probably because playing midgame is hard and rushing hive is kinda easy and really safe currently. No, you just can't really do much in the midgame since terran can keep you at home with medivacs. It's not rocket science. Ling bling muta has looked very weak so far, so you are pretty much stuck on defending with roach ravager until your ultras hit. Also terrans have already started to find ways to combat zerg hive units(libs/ghosts), so him comparing it to broodlord infestor is Just really dumb. I saw Soulkey pulling it of yesterday. I do feel like MLB is more mechanically demanding and more reliant on super solid timing. I phrased this poorly though. TvZ is kinda weird currently. Control of the entire game fluctates HEAVILY: Reapers > Anything Lingspeed > Anything Hellion phase seems evenRoach Ravager > Anything Medivacs/Stim > AnythingUltralisk > Anything Once Libs / Ghost and Greater Spire / Infestors come out, game is remotely balanced (based mostly on map now)
Only then does the game become exciting and mass harrassment and expanding rapidly starts to pay off. Until then, it is just Rush to the next counter unit ggwp Bolded parts are absolutely not true. "stim timings" are so WoL Ok. Thanks for that extensive elaboration as well! You gave pretty extensive elaboration as well!!! I gave an elaboration on my statement, not an elaboration on said elaboration. Go to reddit for easy oneliners and snarky remarks. Start here, this is where DK goes! Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/502231-community-feedback-update-january-15?page=2#32
Your post was bunch of oneliners too without any explanations, "x>y, z>a..."
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2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
Even if the fix works as intended in game don't you find it ridiculous that a dropship changes the tank's form like that? Why would it happen with the tank and not the hellbat for example? Why not pick vikings on the ground then release them as air fighters? It's as ridiculous as the hellion being mechanical in one form and biological in another. I'm not talking about balance (obviously it works) but (artistic)coherence.
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Remove the tankivacs, make tanks and thors do (a little) extra damage to shields, like they did with the mines. Tweak terran air so we can kill tempests. Revert the ground/air upgrades. Adjust the ravenger and lurker and i think we are in a more balanced game for everyone.
Make stasis bombs expire (the only energy based spell that last forever)
Mines can be seen when burrowed due the little marker.
Lurkers, roaches, links or even an ultralisk cant be "seen" when they are burrowed, they should get a "mark" as well.
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1) Remove Tankivac completely & give tanks a straight dmg buff, opponents should fear the tankline & not be able to just A-move through it.
2) Ravagers & Adepts feels too strong, they need some kind of nerf.
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On January 16 2016 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf. What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag? Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with. WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game. RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN
Then Protoss would need Tempest earlier in tech tree or something along what the BW arbiter did (insta statis?) or Liberator would need to go further the tech tree (Fusion core?). Maps with more paths would maybe work too. I hope you realize that liberators + sieged tanks combo is kinda hard already to deal with if the Terran goes about it slowly never unsieging too much at a time (apart from making it a boringfest), if we did what you want without changing something else Terran would probably be able to make absolute forbidden zones that you could never ever hope to prevent.
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Agree with this update. TvT will be back to normal soon and even better.
But "Tank" should be strong like its name. More damage and more mineral/gas. So Zerg won't be A move into Terran composition directly.
Also I want to remind Blizzard about Liberator vs all, nydus worm vs T, Disruptor vs P and Z...
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If they remove tank pickup they're going to need to do something for TvZ to hold roach/ravager pushes. They're already pretty hard to hold if committed even with tanks and medivacs. I do agree though that flying tanks is somewhat ruining TvT.
I wonder about possibly either making Ravagers armored or giving Tanks an upgrade @ tech lab to move some of their bonus armored damage into global damage (would also help vs Adepts) ... but that may screw up TvT and turn it back into Tank/Viking wars. But maybe with boosted medivacs and overall increased mobility of LotV that wouldn't happen.
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On January 17 2016 00:12 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf. What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag? Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with. WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game. RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN Then Protoss would need Tempest earlier in tech tree or something along what the BW arbiter did (insta statis?) or Liberator would need to go further the tech tree (Fusion core?). Maps with more paths would maybe work too. I hope you realize that liberators + sieged tanks combo is kinda hard already to deal with if the Terran goes about it slowly never unsieging too much at a time (apart from making it a boringfest), if we did what you want without changing something else Terran would probably be able to make absolute forbidden zones that you could never ever hope to prevent.
Attack speed should be reduced as well, so a solid surround etc should work well too.
I mean, offcourse balance would be messed up somewhat, I don't want a boringfest either ^^
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On January 16 2016 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 20:07 IceBerrY wrote:On January 16 2016 11:23 DeadByDawn wrote:
Screw TvT - the only thing saving my tanks against Ravager pushes is picking them up and repositioning.
Don't do it. Yes, that´s the problem i am afraid of. Ravager pushes will be so much stronger and we all know hard it is to stop them. I generally felt awkward about the Medivac-Siegtank mechanic, simply because it looked strange, but i got used to it. They should change something with the tank in return, otherwise it´s simply a nerf. What would happen if tanks got a buff to their damage and range (like, 14 range, 60 damage v armored, 40 v light) and Ravagers got the Armored tag? Or go wilder and give them 60-80 flat attack damage and introduce overkill, which would require a lot of rebalancing, but if done decently, would make mech viable and tanks the force to be reckoned with. WRONG (current situation): Zealot takes a Siege Shell and Protoss Amoves army in that general direction to win the game. RIGHT: Zealot takes Siege Shell and PROTOSS GETS THE FUCK OUTA THERE CUS SHITSABOUTTOGODOWN
Although this is a change that probably all would like to see (because it makes sense and is more like BW) but its never going to happen. Blizzard had more then 5 years to make it happen and they didnt. They are not going to change their mind now. They are already going further away from this with tankivacs and liberators.
I would rather see a strong community backed balance mod that provides an alternative balancing for SC2. (no, I am not talking about Starbow which is not SC2 in my opinion)
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On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now.
Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
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On January 17 2016 01:43 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now. Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
They do not listen, except when it furthers their own agenda. It is mostly a PR stunt.
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This is SC2, not BW, so please don't say something like:"more like BW". There are so many interesting things the community has asked for many years. Beta testing and balance test map are good choices to let the community test the ideas and co-operate better with the dev team. But what did they do? IGNORING as much as they can!!! From WOL till now, DK and his crew have done a lot of wrong things to this game in their way. If they still want to make their own game rather than pushing Starcraft back to its golden era, i wish Kespa would made their own SC2 mod and run their own tournament on it.
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On January 17 2016 01:52 Thinh123456 wrote:
i wish Kespa would made their own SC2 mod and run their own tournament on it.
That is actually a very interesting idea. I wonder why they didnt do that yet. Maybe blizzard wouldnt allow it and take away their rights to use SC2 to make money.
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I guees one of the major problems is the speed in which Terran was and is nerfed, almost every terran unit was and is nerfed in weeks. Of course we had the GomTvT era that lasted late 2010 and mid 2011(rax, bunker, tank, scv, stim, ghost- emp and snipe-, thor, bc, reaper were nerfed in those days). When a race is dominating, never saw later on a race being nerfed so hard and so fast. After that, ling infestor became OP with the queen buff(2012 - 2013). DK did nothing and starcraft 2 lost a looot of its playerbase. In HotS there was the blink all in era too and GomPvP, while the hellbat nerf went right away in the start, the blink tech research took months to enter. Now in legacy, the adept + warprism is a problem since Beta, but blizzard waits, waits a lot for nerfing protoss.
While I agree that some lategame scenarios are rare and need to be looked more careful, because early and mid game play some roles, its simply not the case with early game strats that even after defending well, the player is still behind while the other has expanded ahead of him.
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Thanks God so much for the tank change, at last !!! I've been asking for it forever.
I'm happy they agree PvT is broken now, and I hope they take quick action to deal with the WP + adepts bullshit and monitor the situation later if liberator turns out to be broken too.
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I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing.
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On January 17 2016 01:43 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now. Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
Kinda hollow to start listening to what was being shouted at you after running the guy over with your car.
The problems of both the Warp Prism and the Adept have been mentioned over and over again since the beginning of the LotV beta by pretty much every Terran and a bunch of Protoss players as well. It's been said by pros over and over in interviews. The fact that it took Seed doing what he did to finally get Blizzard's attention is pathetic.
As a side note, it's damn funny to think about all the great minds around here who were claiming there was nothing wrong with Adepts in TvP back when they had 180 hp or something.
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On January 17 2016 01:43 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 14:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2016 14:03 J. Corsair wrote:
Oh my god. David Kim thinks the most upvoted suggestion on Reddit is the correct one.
I'm about to puke. When will they fire this guy? Totally agree. I wish Blizzard understood their game, understood what it was and what it needed and had a direction in mind for it, instead of taking polls and just going off them. They are just clueless. Leadership is needed so badly. At this point, I'm 100% certain that even I would do a better job. And that says a lot. I've been saying since the release of HOTS that SC2 needs a new design/balance team, and it has never be more true that now. Well, last time people were really angry that DK did not listen to them, now DK tries to listen, people are still anry. If you were not against Blizzard being more people friendly abck then, you should not talk bad against them. Lasts few months has been a real big change to the blizzard's mentally of elitism and we don't want them to go back to that. Just tell DK to change the way he listens to the "people": don't outright try to fire him.
I don't think you understood me.
David Kim literally doesn't understand what Starcraft needs. The balance/design team is clueless. So if they lead, which they did for years, we got garbage like Slag Pits, the Warhound, and the 1-1-1 dominating for long periods of time. They don't know their game, don't understand what it needs, and don't have a direction in mind for where Starcraft needs to go.
Now, they are just polling the community, which isn't good either. Just doing whatever the community says is the easy and lazy way out. Blizzard can just blame the community when the game isn't good.
A mentally of elitism is necessary for making a quality game, but it has to be combined with a quality design team who knows what they are doing, understands the direction they want to take their game, and gets it there. Honestly, if you've ever designed a game, this isn't rocket science.
It is just basic leadership. The same kind of skills that make a great coach on a team. Blizzard, like a coach, needs to understand what they have and where they need to take it to be successful. But they can't, SC2's peak was long ago, and it shouldn't have been, it should be still be the premier E-Sport. But the failure is Blizzard's alone. And if this was a team, the record they'd have over the past 4 years would be so bad, you know management would fire the coach.
It is time to fire the coach. David Kim needs to go.
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They should change the costs of the tank to the costs of the thor and buff it accordingly (also increase supply costs).
Then nerf the thor and reduce his supply costs and dmg etc.
So you can spam thors and put a few strong tanks which actually feel powerful.
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On January 17 2016 02:48 fickazzz wrote:
They should change the costs of the tank to the costs of the thor and buff it accordingly (also increase supply costs).
Then nerf the thor and reduce his supply costs and dmg etc.
So you can spam thors and put a few strong tanks which actually feel powerful.
Honestly, the problem has always been hard counters and map sizes for the Tank. Tanks were awesome when maps were small; tanks dominated Steppes of War. But now maps are huge, so positional units are naturally weaker.
Secondly, the Viper can spam blinding cloud all over tanks or abduct them with ease. Making Tanks super strong doesn't stop that from happening. Positional play can't exist with units like the Viper, they too easily make a good position a bad one. Forcefields and Vortex have a similar effect. I honestly can't fathom why Blizzard doesn't understand this, it is quite simple.
Warfare in general is more about the timing and positioning prior to battle than the battle itself. Starcraft is trying to make the game about the battle itself, when it should be about everything that leads up to the battle.
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I like these changes, I think DK and the balance team are doing things the right way. However I have some worries and possible answers to them.
Seige tanks go into tank mode when picked up
1. Excellent for TvT positioning will matter more and comebacks will be more possible because defensive positions mean more.
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
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3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
But wouldn't that make them way worse in ZvP? immos would deal easily with both, roaches and ravagers.
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On January 17 2016 03:10 ClaudeSc2 wrote:
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
It's not really hard to tell, adepts teleport on top of the bio army/tanks. It has the potential to all but remove the tank in the matchup.
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On January 17 2016 03:10 ClaudeSc2 wrote:
I like these changes, I think DK and the balance team are doing things the right way. However I have some worries and possible answers to them.
Seige tanks go into tank mode when picked up
1. Excellent for TvT positioning will matter more and comebacks will be more possible because defensive positions mean more.
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
Well ravagers are needed vs liberators, so if you move ravagers to Lair their anti ground mode needs to be moved to fleet beacon.
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On January 17 2016 04:02 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 03:10 ClaudeSc2 wrote:
I like these changes, I think DK and the balance team are doing things the right way. However I have some worries and possible answers to them.
Seige tanks go into tank mode when picked up
1. Excellent for TvT positioning will matter more and comebacks will be more possible because defensive positions mean more.
2. Hard to tell for TvP until other changes are tested
3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings.
Well ravagers are needed vs liberators, so if you move ravagers to Lair their anti ground mode needs to be moved to fleet beacon.
Still sounds imbalanced in 2vs2 versus Zerg, Protoss rushing for Fleet Beacon and Terran rushing Liberators.
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On January 16 2016 23:45 EEJR wrote:
1) Remove Tankivac completely & give tanks a straight dmg buff, opponents should fear the tankline & not be able to just A-move through it.
What is your solution to Adepts shading on top of tanks? Stalkers blinking on top of tanks? Ravagers shelling tanks that have already fired on Roaches? Blinding Cloud going down and an instant zergling flank followup? Ultralisks having 2000 hp? How do we make these units fear the tankline, when they're capable of closing the distance at a whim?
I've said this before and I'll say it again, with the Meditank, Blizzard inadvertently stumbled into the BEST solution to mech's problems in SC2.
Siege Tanks will never ever function exactly as they did in Brood War. Unless we're prepared to give them 10 extra range, it's impossible. All units in SC2 get into position faster, because movement is so fluid. The Tank's 14 is nowhere near as impressive as it was in BW. And some others - Adepts, Stalkers, Zealots, etc - have movement abilities on top of that.
Not only does this Meditank nerf cripple any followup attempts to keep mech relevant, and buff Ravagers in TvZ, I haven't seen anyone mention how much harder tanks will be to control. In terms of multitasking required, every tank will require an extra two clicks to achieve the exact same result as now.
A much better solution than forcing a re-siege would be to just prolong the delay before a dropped tank can fire. Try adding a whole second. It'll make dropping tanks into Tanks way more dangerous in TvT (what we want), provide a slighter nerf in TvZ, and keep their strength:multitasking ratio from plunging off a cliff.
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On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing.
You should be terrified Blizzard lets reddit have an influence on game design altogether. Have you noticed that recently Blizzard often directly adapts community suggestions? By which I don't mean that they let themselves be inspired by discussions taking place on team liquid, but rather that they just try out whatever garners the most upvotes on reddit while seeming vaguely sensible? The adept change they also cited as being a community suggestion as far as I know (although I did a quick search and couldn't find a source on reddit), as was the recent overlord change, the brood lord abduct immunity in HotS and probably various other things. Someone else might be better at finding specific examples.
Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. Nevertheless it's thoroughly questionable from the perspective of wanting to maximally improve the game because the top votes on reddit are not where one can find the best analysis.
Reddit has no memory, people just upvote whatever appeals to the lowest common denominator and then repeat the same process next day. At least on team liquid people develop their points and are given space to create overarching, coherent theories with points and examples, so that over time they can check their ideas against reality. I've seen people here with better track records than Blizzard just because they are given room to adopt a more scientific and analytical attitude.
I'm kinda saying this because I'm annoyed by how Blizzard seems to prefer listening to reddit over TL.
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"we hear your feedback but we're just going to release balance test map after balance test map...and not really do anything but talk about it."
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On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game.
The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is.
And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?"
I'm kinda saying this because I'm annoyed by how Blizzard seems to prefer listening to reddit over TL.
You're far from alone.
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On January 17 2016 04:58 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is. And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?"
There are things just as "broken" in the game since WoL and HotS. People are only angry at those because they have accepted the others, but imagine if they had introduced the mutalisk just now and everybody had to adjust from strategies that didn't consider zerg being able to produce 10 superfast, healing air units at a time, lolololololololol.
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On January 17 2016 05:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 04:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is. And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?" There are things just as "broken" in the game since WoL and HotS. People are only angry at those because they have accepted the others, but imagine if they had introduced the mutalisk just now and everybody had to adjust from strategies that didn't consider zerg being able to produce 10 superfast, healing air units at a time, lolololololololol.
Not the same as Ultra, which can be controlled to perfection by someone with two fingers and 10 APM between them.
Not the same as Viper, which single handedly counters two playstyles (mech, sky) between its three abilities.
Not the same as Nydus, which still gets free wins against the best players in the world.
I could go on and on. Steady Targeting has the potential to turn into Seeker Missile 2.0 (according to unnamed Korean Zergs, it already is). Ravagers have become ubiquitous in every single Z MU, and why not? Amazing pressure, decent AOE, hard counters nearly all the units T gets to support MMM.
The only MU where Mutas are anywhere near as problematic as anything I listed is PvZ, and the biggest problem there isn't the muta, it's PB killing the Phoenix.
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On January 17 2016 03:18 fickazzz wrote:Show nested quote +3. Bad for TvZ, as everyone else has stated, Ravagers will become even stronger
Potential solutions: Make ravagers armored and if that's not enough, move them to LAIR (could possibly delay early all ins which may allow Terran more economic openings. But wouldn't that make them way worse in ZvP? immos would deal easily with both, roaches and ravagers.
That is exactly the point, stalkers and immos should deal more damage to them so zerg can't just go 3 base yolo then A move roach ravagers. It's not even just a balance issue it doesn't fucking make sense that ravagers are not armored. They are bigger roaches with more armor kind of. This would also fix the problem with the tank nerf because ravagers wouldn't crush terrans either so easily.
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Imo adepts should just get small innate speed buff and get rid of shade. Thats the real kicker in warp prism harass because it could be 2 place at once and shade on top of army with 0 risk.
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It was a thought of mine just a few days ago, you can still cancel the shade and everything but what if you couldn't control the shades after you sent them out. Aka you press somewhere on the minimap/screen and the shades go towards that point but you can't go halfway and draw them back etc.
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What if the shades moved at the same speed as the adepts themselves? Can still shade into stuff, can still cancel, but is not as hard to catch up with it. Also makes them arrive a little later if they went the ground route.
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On January 17 2016 06:42 jinjin5000 wrote:
Imo adepts should just get small innate speed buff and get rid of shade. Thats the real kicker in warp prism harass because it could be 2 place at once and shade on top of army with 0 risk.
Shade is the only interesting thing about Adepts. Take it away and we're left with another Roach.
If anything, the Adept needs to rely on perfect Shade use more, not less, than it does now.
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On January 17 2016 05:32 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 05:09 Big J wrote:On January 17 2016 04:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is. And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?" There are things just as "broken" in the game since WoL and HotS. People are only angry at those because they have accepted the others, but imagine if they had introduced the mutalisk just now and everybody had to adjust from strategies that didn't consider zerg being able to produce 10 superfast, healing air units at a time, lolololololololol. Not the same as Ultra, which can be controlled to perfection by someone with two fingers and 10 APM between them. Not the same as Viper, which single handedly counters two playstyles (mech, sky) between its three abilities. Not the same as Nydus, which still gets free wins against the best players in the world. I could go on and on. Steady Targeting has the potential to turn into Seeker Missile 2.0 (according to unnamed Korean Zergs, it already is). Ravagers have become ubiquitous in every single Z MU, and why not? Amazing pressure, decent AOE, hard counters nearly all the units T gets to support MMM. The only MU where Mutas are anywhere near as problematic as anything I listed is PvZ, and the biggest problem there isn't the muta, it's PB killing the Phoenix.
You see, that's exactly why I say that you have already accepted other "broken" tools in the game. You accuse the Nydus, but the reality is that if you didn't open in exactly the right way in HotS you would have lost to baneling busts 24/7. It's a new dynamic, if you don't do X Zerg might win with a Nydus. Same as in HotS if you didn't open with some form of expansion/factory against Zerg. You say the Ultralisk can be controlled with two fingers and 10APM between them? Ever heard of a hellbat push? Until zergs understood exactly what units they needed when it was also just Terran transforming hellbats and a-moving. You acuse the viper of countering two playstyles at once (which isn't true because vipers don't attack mech at all, I can have all the vipers in the world, against ground units it will always only be the support unit), but have you ever heard of a marine? In HotS zerg had a grand total of 2 costefficient units (baneling and ultralisk) against it.
That's the problem with all these discussions. People have accepted old dynamics, because the game was balanced around them. Then blizzard releases new content that in combination with the old content may break the game and then draw the conclusion the new stuff is too strong. No, that's not the right conclusion. The right conclusion is that the combination of old and new stuff is breaking the game.
If I go back to my mutalisk example, I don't think you understood quite what I said. I said that without the mutalisk the gameplay would have been extremely different in HotS and also the balance. If you then throw in the mutalisk everyone obviously accepts that this unit is the reason the game breaks. But since the mutalisk isn't "new" people have already accepted that Protoss simply can't play heavy ground focused multi-robo builds against zerg. Then they complain that they have trouble with ravagers/lurkers/buffed ultras, though the solution to those is rather simple, i.e. to invest into more units that are really good vs ground. But as I said, that door is closed due to mutas and people have accepted that, which is just arbitrary that you accept that and not the other way around.
I'm not saying all of that stuff you said is fine, but you are just blaming everything that is new like the adept while warpgates exist.
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On January 17 2016 06:42 jinjin5000 wrote:
Imo adepts should just get small innate speed buff and get rid of shade. Thats the real kicker in warp prism harass because it could be 2 place at once and shade on top of army with 0 risk.
There are ways to nerf the shade too: movement speed decrease, increased cooldown, pathing changes, removing the shade canceling functionality, removing invulnerability of shades. Not all of these might be sensible, but they should probably be considered if people identify the problem with the unit as specifically its ability to be in two places at once. .
Furthermore there are some adjustments that could be made to the warp prism. The pick-up range could be reduced a bit to add more vulnerability, the warp prism could get an increase in cost in terms of gas and it could get a small health nerf. With the pick-up range increase the unit has more resilience and so there is scope for compensating survivability nerfs.
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On January 17 2016 04:17 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 23:45 EEJR wrote:
1) Remove Tankivac completely & give tanks a straight dmg buff, opponents should fear the tankline & not be able to just A-move through it. What is your solution to Adepts shading on top of tanks? Stalkers blinking on top of tanks? Ravagers shelling tanks that have already fired on Roaches? Blinding Cloud going down and an instant zergling flank followup? Ultralisks having 2000 hp? How do we make these units fear the tankline, when they're capable of closing the distance at a whim? I've said this before and I'll say it again, with the Meditank, Blizzard inadvertently stumbled into the BEST solution to mech's problems in SC2. Siege Tanks will never ever function exactly as they did in Brood War. Unless we're prepared to give them 10 extra range, it's impossible. All units in SC2 get into position faster, because movement is so fluid. The Tank's 14 is nowhere near as impressive as it was in BW. And some others - Adepts, Stalkers, Zealots, etc - have movement abilities on top of that.
I think this is not necesarily true. Look at Liberators. Yes they are different because they are air, but still. If a toss player sees three tanks guarding a ramp, he will directly think: "Wow three free kills". If he sees three Liberators guarding a ramp, he is going to worry about it. And indeed, blink stalkers would deal with the, but everything else on ground would be pretty suicidal. So really, imo one of the issues is simply tanks not being good enough.
Now specifically your points: Stalkers in general are not an issue for mech in a straight up fight. The issue is with bases which mine out faster, stalker harrasment pretty much should kill a mech player. In general I feel the requirement to defend more bases is good, but then mech does need to have the option to do this. For example with better tanks, so it doesn't just means you lose your SCVs and your tanks, instead of just your SCVs.
Adepts shading on top of tanks: To be fair I simply haven't seen it used to me personally. It is never going to be a nice spot for tanks, but I really wonder with a significant BF hellbat force if it is a good idea. Ravagers shells: More tanks. Ravager shells are nice, no doubt about it. But their strong point is really the early game, when you can target those 2 tanks and they simply die (which is why I go banshees vs zerg). But later on, and again with better tanks, and for example ravagers which are armored, you are taking alot of damage to kill 2 tanks if there are 10 more tanks firing at you.
Blinding cloud: While I hate the PB and think it should be killed, and in game I also have a strong dislike for blinding cloud, I don't feel it is a bad mechanic. It simply forces you to have a viking screen (which you need anyway for when the BLs show up). And lings after blinding cloud are the least of your worries, hellbats will roast them. This is nothing new. Same for ultras by the way, they are not that fast, still a pain to deal with for tanks, but nothing new at the same time. (Their extra armor is irrelevant vs tanks).
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On January 17 2016 06:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 05:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 05:09 Big J wrote:On January 17 2016 04:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is. And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?" There are things just as "broken" in the game since WoL and HotS. People are only angry at those because they have accepted the others, but imagine if they had introduced the mutalisk just now and everybody had to adjust from strategies that didn't consider zerg being able to produce 10 superfast, healing air units at a time, lolololololololol. Not the same as Ultra, which can be controlled to perfection by someone with two fingers and 10 APM between them. Not the same as Viper, which single handedly counters two playstyles (mech, sky) between its three abilities. Not the same as Nydus, which still gets free wins against the best players in the world. I could go on and on. Steady Targeting has the potential to turn into Seeker Missile 2.0 (according to unnamed Korean Zergs, it already is). Ravagers have become ubiquitous in every single Z MU, and why not? Amazing pressure, decent AOE, hard counters nearly all the units T gets to support MMM. The only MU where Mutas are anywhere near as problematic as anything I listed is PvZ, and the biggest problem there isn't the muta, it's PB killing the Phoenix. You see, that's exactly why I say that you have already accepted other "broken" tools in the game. You accuse the Nydus, but the reality is that if you didn't open in exactly the right way in HotS you would have lost to baneling busts 24/7. It's a new dynamic, if you don't do X Zerg might win with a Nydus. Same as in HotS if you didn't open with some form of expansion/factory against Zerg. You say the Ultralisk can be controlled with two fingers and 10APM between them? Ever heard of a hellbat push? Until zergs understood exactly what units they needed when it was also just Terran transforming hellbats and a-moving. You acuse the viper of countering two playstyles at once (which isn't true because vipers don't attack mech at all, I can have all the vipers in the world, against ground units it will always only be the support unit), but have you ever heard of a marine? In HotS zerg had a grand total of 2 costefficient units (baneling and ultralisk) against it. That's the problem with all these discussions. People have accepted old dynamics, because the game was balanced around them. Then blizzard releases new content that in combination with the old content may break the game and then draw the conclusion the new stuff is too strong. No, that's not the right conclusion. The right conclusion is that the combination of old and new stuff is breaking the game. If I go back to my mutalisk example, I don't think you understood quite what I said. I said that without the mutalisk the gameplay would have been extremely different in HotS and also the balance. If you then throw in the mutalisk everyone obviously accepts that this unit is the reason the game breaks. But since the mutalisk isn't "new" people have already accepted that Protoss simply can't play heavy ground focused multi-robo builds against zerg. Then they complain that they have trouble with ravagers/lurkers/buffed ultras, though the solution to those is rather simple, i.e. to invest into more units that are really good vs ground. But as I said, that door is closed due to mutas and people have accepted that, which is just arbitrary that you accept that and not the other way around.
You're making a lot of assumptions about me.
I'm not OK with the ease of Baneling and Roach busts, not in LotV, not in HotS, and not in WoL. I'm not ok with Oracles. I'm not ok with DTs. I am very consistently against anything that allows a player to say "let's flip a coin, if heads I just win regardless of how you or I execute anything, if tails I'll be ever so slightly behind." I like my SC2 to be like chess, not poker.
The reason I and others like me aren't campaigning against those things is that getting that ball rolling now would take crazy momentum, while there's another thing just like those things adding to those things that people are already geared to be skeptical of. I tolerate roaches even though they make my SC2 experience less pleasant. I don't want to have to tolerate even more things.
As a side note, Banelings are a pretty good unit when they're not being used to all in, so a majority of the time. The only times Nydus Worm is ever not lobotomizingly dumb is when it would have worked exactly the same if it had 100 extra HP and couldn't be transfuse.
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On January 17 2016 04:17 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 23:45 EEJR wrote:
1) Remove Tankivac completely & give tanks a straight dmg buff, opponents should fear the tankline & not be able to just A-move through it. What is your solution to Adepts shading on top of tanks? Stalkers blinking on top of tanks? Ravagers shelling tanks that have already fired on Roaches? Blinding Cloud going down and an instant zergling flank followup? Ultralisks having 2000 hp? How do we make these units fear the tankline, when they're capable of closing the distance at a whim? I've said this before and I'll say it again, with the Meditank, Blizzard inadvertently stumbled into the BEST solution to mech's problems in SC2. Siege Tanks will never ever function exactly as they did in Brood War. Unless we're prepared to give them 10 extra range, it's impossible. All units in SC2 get into position faster, because movement is so fluid. The Tank's 14 is nowhere near as impressive as it was in BW. And some others - Adepts, Stalkers, Zealots, etc - have movement abilities on top of that. Not only does this Meditank nerf cripple any followup attempts to keep mech relevant, and buff Ravagers in TvZ, I haven't seen anyone mention how much harder tanks will be to control. In terms of multitasking required, every tank will require an extra two clicks to achieve the exact same result as now. A much better solution than forcing a re-siege would be to just prolong the delay before a dropped tank can fire. Try adding a whole second. It'll make dropping tanks into Tanks way more dangerous in TvT (what we want), provide a slighter nerf in TvZ, and keep their strength:multitasking ratio from plunging off a cliff.
Quoted for complete truth. Please make sure Blizzard sees this post. Post it on Reddit, since that's what David Kim reads, apparently.
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On January 17 2016 06:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 05:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 05:09 Big J wrote:On January 17 2016 04:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is. And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?" There are things just as "broken" in the game since WoL and HotS. People are only angry at those because they have accepted the others, but imagine if they had introduced the mutalisk just now and everybody had to adjust from strategies that didn't consider zerg being able to produce 10 superfast, healing air units at a time, lolololololololol. Not the same as Ultra, which can be controlled to perfection by someone with two fingers and 10 APM between them. Not the same as Viper, which single handedly counters two playstyles (mech, sky) between its three abilities. Not the same as Nydus, which still gets free wins against the best players in the world. I could go on and on. Steady Targeting has the potential to turn into Seeker Missile 2.0 (according to unnamed Korean Zergs, it already is). Ravagers have become ubiquitous in every single Z MU, and why not? Amazing pressure, decent AOE, hard counters nearly all the units T gets to support MMM. The only MU where Mutas are anywhere near as problematic as anything I listed is PvZ, and the biggest problem there isn't the muta, it's PB killing the Phoenix. You see, that's exactly why I say that you have already accepted other "broken" tools in the game. You accuse the Nydus, but the reality is that if you didn't open in exactly the right way in HotS you would have lost to baneling busts 24/7. It's a new dynamic, if you don't do X Zerg might win with a Nydus. Same as in HotS if you didn't open with some form of expansion/factory against Zerg. You say the Ultralisk can be controlled with two fingers and 10APM between them? Ever heard of a hellbat push? Until zergs understood exactly what units they needed when it was also just Terran transforming hellbats and a-moving. You acuse the viper of countering two playstyles at once (which isn't true because vipers don't attack mech at all, I can have all the vipers in the world, against ground units it will always only be the support unit), but have you ever heard of a marine? In HotS zerg had a grand total of 2 costefficient units (baneling and ultralisk) against it. That's the problem with all these discussions. People have accepted old dynamics, because the game was balanced around them. Then blizzard releases new content that in combination with the old content may break the game and then draw the conclusion the new stuff is too strong. No, that's not the right conclusion. The right conclusion is that the combination of old and new stuff is breaking the game. If I go back to my mutalisk example, I don't think you understood quite what I said. I said that without the mutalisk the gameplay would have been extremely different in HotS and also the balance. If you then throw in the mutalisk everyone obviously accepts that this unit is the reason the game breaks. But since the mutalisk isn't "new" people have already accepted that Protoss simply can't play heavy ground focused multi-robo builds against zerg. Then they complain that they have trouble with ravagers/lurkers/buffed ultras, though the solution to those is rather simple, i.e. to invest into more units that are really good vs ground. But as I said, that door is closed due to mutas and people have accepted that, which is just arbitrary that you accept that and not the other way around. I'm not saying all of that stuff you said is fine, but you are just blaming everything that is new like the adept while warpgates exist.
Personally I still blame warpgates and medivacs. :p
That's why I always say: people can get used to everything. The audience could not stop laughing at how fast the medivac was in one of the first Heart of the Swarm tournaments (an IEM iirc) and there was constant discussion on talk shows about how there should be some drawback to it like an energy cost, because it was so ridiculous. But as life went on, players learned to defend better and nowadays it scarcely registers. And I'm sure that if you ask Avilo he will tell you that ignite afterburners is a necessary tool without which terran would be gimped.
That's what happens per definition to everything in the game which is 'broken': it becomes normalized because Blizzard balances the games and maps around it. It literally can not be problematic because the metagame, the maps and the balance will all adjust based on the most potent units which then take a central role in the main set of viable strategies.
But there are insidious after effects: some units can not keep up and are forgotten, game play dynamics suffer, overall the game loses some of its luster and becomes a little less interesting, diverse, strategic, sensible and whatnot. But they are difficult to notice, sometimes the game merely becomes gradually worse until one day you find yourself no longer enjoying the game for no particular reason whatsoever.
So personally I think it's good to still state that adepts, ultralisks etc. are problematic, that Blizzard should address those units and should not wait for those units to be fully integrated into the game because then it might be too late. I'll gladly still campaign for a medivac nerf, but I don't think my political movement is catching on, but there might be still hope for anti-adept calls to action. :p
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On January 17 2016 07:27 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 06:58 Big J wrote:On January 17 2016 05:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 05:09 Big J wrote:On January 17 2016 04:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 17 2016 04:36 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 02:16 TheWinks wrote:
I have a lot of problems with the use of 'the most upvoted post' of a reddit thread to push the tankivac change. Lillekanin's post had more than twice as many upvotes as the comment itself and received no consideration for changes. Zerg and Protoss players don't want mech to be viable against them, so they're going to downvote things that support mech in those matchups. They also don't mind and support things that are going to be terran nerfs in TvP/TvZ. There are plenty of mech units that didn't see changes in lotv that could be touched to improve mech. It just makes sense from a design perspective to buff mech in non-mirror matchups first and let the changes filter back to TvT rather than nerfing things to make mech more viable in TvT.
I fear we're looking at another widow mine nerf with this change because it's not really considering balance, it's purely to 'shake up the meta.' If and only if terran isn't using tankivacs in TvZ/TvP or is completely dominant in TvZ/TvP should tankivac changes be on the table. It's also one of the only useful things terran got in this expansion. Removing it without giving terran something cool in exchange is just depressing. Maybe it's some contorted effort to pretend to listen to the community by searching for community posts for justifications for things they wanted to try out anyway, or perhaps they finally stopped caring and decided that giving reddit a voice in the design should at least give them a good scapegoat or what, but it seems a bit dubious and one step short of pandering. I won't deny that some of these suggestions are inoffensive and worth a try, and it's not like Blizzard is arbitrarily picking them out with no regard to how they fit in the game. The reality is, as obviously problematic as listening to Reddit is, for the reasons you describe, it's still going to help the game right now to do so because that's how fucked certain things are. More than 2 months after release, we still have no idea how the game will look once Adepts, Nydus, PB, Ravagers, and Ultralisks are brought down to reality. In fact only one of those things has a real nerf on the horizon. Even Reddit knows how fucked that is. And thats not even getting into obviously problematic stuff like Reapers, Steady Targeting, Lurkers, Disruptors, Liberators that will all need tweaks to some degree. And we haven't begun to understand the extent to which LBM doesn't work in LotV. Why? Because it's supplanted by roach ravager into Hive, and when both those options are tuned down, 6 months from now, "oops where LBM?" There are things just as "broken" in the game since WoL and HotS. People are only angry at those because they have accepted the others, but imagine if they had introduced the mutalisk just now and everybody had to adjust from strategies that didn't consider zerg being able to produce 10 superfast, healing air units at a time, lolololololololol. Not the same as Ultra, which can be controlled to perfection by someone with two fingers and 10 APM between them. Not the same as Viper, which single handedly counters two playstyles (mech, sky) between its three abilities. Not the same as Nydus, which still gets free wins against the best players in the world. I could go on and on. Steady Targeting has the potential to turn into Seeker Missile 2.0 (according to unnamed Korean Zergs, it already is). Ravagers have become ubiquitous in every single Z MU, and why not? Amazing pressure, decent AOE, hard counters nearly all the units T gets to support MMM. The only MU where Mutas are anywhere near as problematic as anything I listed is PvZ, and the biggest problem there isn't the muta, it's PB killing the Phoenix. You see, that's exactly why I say that you have already accepted other "broken" tools in the game. You accuse the Nydus, but the reality is that if you didn't open in exactly the right way in HotS you would have lost to baneling busts 24/7. It's a new dynamic, if you don't do X Zerg might win with a Nydus. Same as in HotS if you didn't open with some form of expansion/factory against Zerg. You say the Ultralisk can be controlled with two fingers and 10APM between them? Ever heard of a hellbat push? Until zergs understood exactly what units they needed when it was also just Terran transforming hellbats and a-moving. You acuse the viper of countering two playstyles at once (which isn't true because vipers don't attack mech at all, I can have all the vipers in the world, against ground units it will always only be the support unit), but have you ever heard of a marine? In HotS zerg had a grand total of 2 costefficient units (baneling and ultralisk) against it. That's the problem with all these discussions. People have accepted old dynamics, because the game was balanced around them. Then blizzard releases new content that in combination with the old content may break the game and then draw the conclusion the new stuff is too strong. No, that's not the right conclusion. The right conclusion is that the combination of old and new stuff is breaking the game. If I go back to my mutalisk example, I don't think you understood quite what I said. I said that without the mutalisk the gameplay would have been extremely different in HotS and also the balance. If you then throw in the mutalisk everyone obviously accepts that this unit is the reason the game breaks. But since the mutalisk isn't "new" people have already accepted that Protoss simply can't play heavy ground focused multi-robo builds against zerg. Then they complain that they have trouble with ravagers/lurkers/buffed ultras, though the solution to those is rather simple, i.e. to invest into more units that are really good vs ground. But as I said, that door is closed due to mutas and people have accepted that, which is just arbitrary that you accept that and not the other way around. I'm not saying all of that stuff you said is fine, but you are just blaming everything that is new like the adept while warpgates exist. Personally I still blame warpgates and medivacs. :p That's why I always say: people can get used to everything. The audience could not stop laughing at how fast the medivac was in one of the first Heart of the Swarm tournaments (an IEM iirc) and there was constant discussion on talk shows about how there should be some drawback to it like an energy cost, because it was so ridiculous. But as life went on, players learned to defend better and nowadays it scarcely registers. And I'm sure that if you ask Avilo he will tell you that ignite afterburners is a necessary tool without which terran would be gimped. That's what happens per definition to everything in the game which is 'broken': it becomes normalized because Blizzard balances the games and maps around it. It literally can not be problematic because the metagame, the maps and the balance will all adjust based on the most potent units which then take a central role in the main set of viable strategies. But there are insidious after effects: some units can not keep up and are forgotten, game play dynamics suffer, overall the game loses some of its luster and becomes a little less interesting, diverse, strategic, sensible and whatnot. But they are difficult to notice, sometimes the game merely becomes gradually worse until one day you find yourself no longer enjoying the game for no particular reason whatsoever. So personally I think it's good to still state that adepts, ultralisks etc. are problematic, that Blizzard should address those units and should not wait for those units to be fully integrated into the game because then it might be too late. I'll gladly still campaign for a medivac nerf, but I don't think my political movement is catching on, but there might be still hope for anti-adept calls to action. :p
Well but in many cases what you will achieve are those insidious after effects. Adept's are Protoss' first and only chance to become a normal race with a normal composition, if blizzard does the right thing and doesnt nerf the stats but the psionic transfer and the prism. Ravagers are a pretty fun unit with good dynamics, but of course they are not as comfy as leaning back against roach/hydra and enjoying a freewin at max while posting on the forums how many alternatives zerg have to muta/ling/bling.
Anyways, I don't think half of the stuff that was mentioned will receive meaningful nerfs and the game will turn out "balanced". If anything with the "dont nerf, buff"-trip the community is on I rather expect blizzard to buff the marine and the medivac than nerfing the ultralisk.
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I find it crazy that people are jumping on to every strength of each race and saying "X that this race has is the problem and Y needs to happen to this units balance to fix the game".
In my opinion, that is just taking each unique strength of each race and saying it's too strong. Those type of changes will NOT fix the game, it will just lead to another flavor of the month unit becoming stronger based on the balance changes.
The real problem with the game? How fast the economic curve scales up. Start of the game is okay if it stayed that way, but you quickly go from 12 workers - 1 saturated base, then 1 saturated base to 2-3, in mere minutes you are at T3 tech.
Think about all the problems being listed in this topic, from Drops to Ravs to Ultras to Adept/WP to PB to Liberators to Ultras. Ever asked yourself, what is the common denominator of all these issues?? The common denominator is the fact that they are all involving some form of T2.5 or T3 unit in the composition. Would ANY of these things be a problem if you didnt have access to those units so early in the game, or in such a high number of those units causing a critical mass where you need to make a very specific hard counter composition to defeat it?
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Making the tank ungieged while picking up is just a mediocre or just another boring band-aid fix compared to siegetank in Hots or Wol. It does solve the problem of mech vs bio in TvT, but it does not solve the problem of turtle mech play or strengthen the power of positioning in TvP or TvZ. The 2 supply tank and removing smart fire, or even removing clumping units are a good way to go...Why the fuck that the dev team always try to ignore it???
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This tank business is ridiculous. If they take out Tankivac play, what are they going to substitute in its place? We are out of beta already. The changes necessary to make T work against Z without Tankivacs would require another beta. Blizz has put themselves in a hole here because the buffs they would need to make to offset nerfing Tankivacs would be too far reaching and affect too many variables for something like a balance test map.
My guess: they don't even touch Tankivacs. This talk goes nowhere. But the adept -1 damage nerf goes through as it should have 6 months ago.
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Smart fire is hard coded into the game (Dustin Browder said this I think a long time ago).
However, the tank can be changed in other ways. At a minimal it must do more damage. It is currently a pathetic positional unit.
Tankivac was a hell Mary attempt at creativity and it shows these designers don't know what they're doing.
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I dont understand how characters/units like death knight on wow and adept on sc2 made it in games like this. How do they get paid? its like Im at top level in both games and how they made it live out of PTR/Beta is mindboggling. Whos to blame? I dont think u can point fingers at david only but since hes like the 'lead' aka 'head coach' shouldnt stuff like this have some penalty? How did this happen like weeks into GSL, why is it so hard to tune the # like HP or damage or adept shades' fog of war for example. I was muti rank 1 on wow, quit playing srsly when s5 aka lich king death knight came out...game was so broken for months actually throughout season 5. How could this happen? In the real world in other jobs youd be fired and put to shame. SC2 is considered the most competitive game for most gamers in the world. A lot of us are competitive even casuals play and try to improve even if they dont aim to be the best. Im only low GM level random player and playing protoss adepts make me not want to play and think to myself every single time..."how can a billion dollar blizzard company let this happen? its 2016 please remove completely broken units if things go overboard (like warhounds)" -- better to remove units that make the game imbalanced, dont feel bad your "new" units didnt turn out as balanced as youd like. Players quit because of stuff like this. MLG ESL etc. will never ever have wow tournies again because its not balanced and will keep gettin worse and worse in pvp. Dont do the same to SC2, invest in a MORE competent balance team please.
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Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me
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On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me
I'm not sure about the Adept change myself but the -1 actually does make a difference; It makes it so SCV's and Marines require 3 shots to kill instead of 2. It seems you didn't quite get that.
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On January 17 2016 19:50 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me I'm not sure about the Adept change myself but the -1 actually does make a difference; It makes it so SCV's and Marines require 3 shots to kill instead of 2. It seems you didn't quite get that.
Will it change anything against zerg? WP+adept are quite stupid against Z also.
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On January 17 2016 19:53 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 19:50 Penev wrote:On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me I'm not sure about the Adept change myself but the -1 actually does make a difference; It makes it so SCV's and Marines require 3 shots to kill instead of 2. It seems you didn't quite get that. Will it change anything against zerg? WP+adept are quite stupid against Z also.
I think the point of the change is for TvP. I think it pretty much universally accepted that now TvP needs alot of help. The -1 won't affect PvZ which was the point in the first place. Since they are unsure of PvZ atm since NA and euro are saying ZvP is heavily Z favor while protoss are starting to figure it out kinda so it a bit unstable. This change will let it flesh out more since it won't affect PvZ. If it ever does become a problem, they can just reduce it further to also affect PvZ.
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On January 17 2016 19:53 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 19:50 Penev wrote:On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me I'm not sure about the Adept change myself but the -1 actually does make a difference; It makes it so SCV's and Marines require 3 shots to kill instead of 2. It seems you didn't quite get that. Will it change anything against zerg? WP+adept are quite stupid against Z also.
Nope
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On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me
It might not be a useless change, but it's certainly an odd one. Balancing a unit so that when they attack they leave their two most common targets with 1 remaining hit point is more like psychologically frustrating players.
On January 17 2016 15:00 Deathstar wrote:
Smart fire is hard coded into the game (Dustin Browder said this I think a long time ago).
However, the tank can be changed in other ways. At a minimal it must do more damage. It is currently a pathetic positional unit.
Tankivac was a hell Mary attempt at creativity and it shows these designers don't know what they're doing.
That's misleading. Smart fire only happens because the projectiles of the siege tank and marine are instant. If you add a very fast projectile the smart fire effects also disappear. It's just a quirk of the engine when it has to process instant projectiles.
Nevertheless, Blizzard will likely never make this change because it goes against some of their principles:
1. Only make conceptual changes to units if they are improvements.
Changing the way that the attack works changes the siege tank's functionality, the tactics and strategies you have to use against it. Blizzard does not want players to have to learn new concepts for frivolous reasons such as abstract reasoning on TL forums, they only want to change the game if people consider it an improvement. The benefits are not clear enough, and furthermore the unit becomes strictly weaker which will force compensations which puts even more tasks on Blizzard's plate.
2. Do not make changes that dumb down the game.
I'm adding it here even though it's a dishonest argument, just because I know that David Kim will use it to justify not making the change if pressed and because most of the people in the community will take him at face value. The idea is that removing "smart fire" makes the game less "smart".
Anyhow, removing smart fire was a nice idea five years ago, but now that the game is so much faster I no longer see the point. One could postulate that the siege tank needs to be yet even more user-friendly if it is to survive. Speed up the transformation, remove the friendly fire, increase the movement speed, remove the minimum radius. If I had to choose between those sort of changes and the one concession of medivac-tank synergy the latter might be the lesser evil. At least it is difficult to use and allows for some cool, if abusive, tactics.
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On January 17 2016 20:18 Grumbels wrote:
That's misleading. Smart fire only happens because the projectiles of the siege tank and marine are instant. If you add a very fast projectile the smart fire effects also disappear. It's just a quirk of the engine when it has to process instant projectiles.
You dont even need a projectile. The same effect can be achieved by adding a very short wait (0.01 seconds) to the damage output. It still looks and feels like an instant attack but overkill is back. Black Lilium did that in his SC2 balance mod.
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collosus should be inmune to viper pull so we can see some collosus in pvz
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On January 17 2016 21:21 nubHunter wrote:
collosus should be inmune to viper pull so we can see some collosus in pvz
I think restrictions and exceptions are bad design.
If they buff collosus then they should make the unit itself slightly better like + bio damage or something.
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sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous.
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On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous.
That is because you are generalizing "people".
Have you ever considered that it's not the same people that are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and the ones that are angry at DK listening to the community?
It is impossible to make everyone happy
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On January 17 2016 22:08 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 21:21 nubHunter wrote:
collosus should be inmune to viper pull so we can see some collosus in pvz I think restrictions and exceptions are bad design. If they buff collosus then they should make the unit itself slightly better like + bio damage or something.
maybe they should buff collosus damage vs light or something, then they can be countered easily by armored units.
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On January 17 2016 21:12 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 20:18 Grumbels wrote:
That's misleading. Smart fire only happens because the projectiles of the siege tank and marine are instant. If you add a very fast projectile the smart fire effects also disappear. It's just a quirk of the engine when it has to process instant projectiles. You dont even need a projectile. The same effect can be achieved by adding a very short wait (0.01 seconds) to the damage output. It still looks and feels like an instant attack but overkill is back. Black Lilium did that in his SC2 balance mod.
Both are good ideas! Pretty mad that none of this was implemented in favor of more damage
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On January 17 2016 20:18 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me It might not be a useless change, but it's certainly an odd one. Balancing a unit so that when they attack they leave their two most common targets with 1 remaining hit point is more like psychologically frustrating players.
But come on, this is nothing new. Zealots need three swipes to kill lings but +1 reduces it to two swipes. Adepts will just work the same against marines and SCVs. Especially for marines this means significantly more time to deal damage to the attacking adepts.
In other words, adept/WP attacks will be significantly weaker unless the Protoss gets +1 attack, which has huge impact on timings, not to mention another 250/100 investment (fast forge + upgrade).
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holy shit please don't break TvT again... the matchup is so fucking awesome right now. PLEASE T.T
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On January 17 2016 23:15 nubHunter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 22:08 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 17 2016 21:21 nubHunter wrote:
collosus should be inmune to viper pull so we can see some collosus in pvz I think restrictions and exceptions are bad design. If they buff collosus then they should make the unit itself slightly better like + bio damage or something. maybe they should buff collosus damage vs light or something, then they can be countered easily by armored units.
Old colossus did about 25-55% more damage depending on upgrade levels + a few other things and it cost the same. Pretty amazing nerf after keeping it for 5 years!
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On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous.
sometimes people are funny.
First they read what one part of the community says, then they read what another part of the community says and when it turns out that two parts of the community have contradicting views they conclude that the community is ridiculous.
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On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous.
Sorry, I don't want to see this game balanced by the most upvoted comments on a Reddit threat. I must be a very silly people.
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I think it's good that blizzard is considering to change tank medivac, I feel like they were just testing if it leads to anything special.
And to be honest, some of the new timings with tanks marines in tvp is pretty cool and damn powerful.
But at the end it sacrifices too much, especially tvt becomes so much of a mess.
I don't like what they are proposing, but at the same time I want to see some pro showing the difference.
This should lead to a ravager nerf, but since it's not brought up so I guess blizzard is aiming to wait and see again.
As for adapt tvp, I think the nerf should be the ghost and not the damage.
I think it offers too much to mess up army positioning with little risk.
Maybe adapt should lose shield once they use the ability even if cancelling the ghost.
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On January 18 2016 01:23 ETisME wrote:
I think it's good that blizzard is considering to change tank medivac, I feel like they were just testing if it leads to anything special.
And to be honest, some of the new timings with tanks marines in tvp is pretty cool and damn powerful.
But at the end it sacrifices too much, especially tvt becomes so much of a mess.
I don't like what they are proposing, but at the same time I want to see some pro showing the difference.
This should lead to a ravager nerf, but since it's not brought up so I guess blizzard is aiming to wait and see again.
As for adapt tvp, I think the nerf should be the ghost and not the damage.
I think it offers too much to mess up army positioning with little risk.
Maybe adapt should lose shield once they use the ability even if cancelling the ghost.
I agree that the issue is in the versatility of the shade (Perfect surrounds, scouting, threatening 2 locations at the same time, little to no counterplay). A -1 to attack helps the early game though (+1 should help Adepts and vs combat shields nothing changes)
I'm in the camp that dreads the new Siege Medivac interaction and I feel like a immobile siege unit should be powerful without a 200 speed unit and 400 apm required to make it viable. Just up the health/damage/make it easier to produce.
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Ravagers definitely needs a nerf down the line. The damage output against stationary targets is a little over the top. Perhaps keeping the same damage output against buildings, but nerfed against units.
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On January 18 2016 01:23 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous. Sorry, I don't want to see this game balanced by the most upvoted comments on a Reddit threat. I must be a very silly people.
This idea has been floating around for a long time. Blizzard already mentioned changing tankivacs back in December for TvT....
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On January 18 2016 02:18 cheekymonkey wrote:
Ravagers definitely needs a nerf down the line. The damage output against stationary targets is a little over the top. Perhaps keeping the same damage output against buildings, but nerfed against units.
Funnily enough i've seen quite a few people suggest the opposite
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On January 18 2016 02:52 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 02:18 cheekymonkey wrote:
Ravagers definitely needs a nerf down the line. The damage output against stationary targets is a little over the top. Perhaps keeping the same damage output against buildings, but nerfed against units. Funnily enough i've seen quite a few people suggest the opposite
buff against units, and nerf against buildings? Insanity.
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On January 17 2016 23:54 corydoras wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2016 20:18 Grumbels wrote:On January 17 2016 18:18 Hurricaned wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the -1 adept damage is just ridiculously useless? When I encounter a 8 gate warp prism adept "all in" (difficult for me to say all in because even if you defend, which you don't, you're behind) it wouldnt change much that the adept did 1 or 2 or 5 damage less. It's just too tanky, too cheap, too slippery. Either nerf the shade cd/speed/duration/make it impossible to cancel, lower the HP, increase the cost, make WP only capable to warp 2 units at once at low speed... But -1 damage feels so stupid to me It might not be a useless change, but it's certainly an odd one. Balancing a unit so that when they attack they leave their two most common targets with 1 remaining hit point is more like psychologically frustrating players. But come on, this is nothing new. Zealots need three swipes to kill lings but +1 reduces it to two swipes. Adepts will just work the same against marines and SCVs. Especially for marines this means significantly more time to deal damage to the attacking adepts. In other words, adept/WP attacks will be significantly weaker unless the Protoss gets +1 attack, which has huge impact on timings, not to mention another 250/100 investment (fast forge + upgrade).
Well, it's slightly different because zerglings will quickly regenerate their health and are insignificant as targets. The underlying mechanic might be the same, but the zealots vs zerglings and adepts vs scv interaction take place in a different context. It's not a very critical objection, but I thought I should mention it nevertheless because it does strike me as a minor annoyance.
This is something I always feel for novels and movies: the author should not show his presence on the page, the director should not intrude on the screen, and so on. By extension it becomes that game designers should not engage in heavy handed balancing, where every time there is an interaction between units you are reminded of specific decisions made by the designers.
That is to say, I'm curious how this sort of interaction feels for beginning players, whether they would notice it and consider it a nuisance. Of course veteran players will just accept it and won't mind, but I think it's good to keep both groups into account and I know that Blizzard does so as well.
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On January 18 2016 02:38 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 01:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous. Sorry, I don't want to see this game balanced by the most upvoted comments on a Reddit threat. I must be a very silly people. This idea has been floating around for a long time. Blizzard already mentioned changing tankivacs back in December for TvT....
Yeah and everyone realized why it was a bad idea including blizzard.
The only reason there's so many vocal people for it is because it's a tvt change that nerfs terran in tvz and tvp.
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On January 18 2016 03:48 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 02:38 p68 wrote:On January 18 2016 01:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous. Sorry, I don't want to see this game balanced by the most upvoted comments on a Reddit threat. I must be a very silly people. This idea has been floating around for a long time. Blizzard already mentioned changing tankivacs back in December for TvT.... Yeah and everyone realized why it was a bad idea including blizzard. The only reason there's so many vocal people for it is because it's a tvt change that nerfs terran in tvz and tvp.
I was just pointing out that this wasn't an idea created by Reddit, which the person I replied to implied.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On January 18 2016 02:58 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 02:52 Cyro wrote:On January 18 2016 02:18 cheekymonkey wrote:
Ravagers definitely needs a nerf down the line. The damage output against stationary targets is a little over the top. Perhaps keeping the same damage output against buildings, but nerfed against units. Funnily enough i've seen quite a few people suggest the opposite buff against units, and nerf against buildings? Insanity.
Nah, nerf against buildings so that they can't invalidate walls, cannons, bunkers etc. That idea seemed fairly popular
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On January 18 2016 03:53 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 03:48 TheWinks wrote:On January 18 2016 02:38 p68 wrote:On January 18 2016 01:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous. Sorry, I don't want to see this game balanced by the most upvoted comments on a Reddit threat. I must be a very silly people. This idea has been floating around for a long time. Blizzard already mentioned changing tankivacs back in December for TvT.... Yeah and everyone realized why it was a bad idea including blizzard. The only reason there's so many vocal people for it is because it's a tvt change that nerfs terran in tvz and tvp. I was just pointing out that this wasn't an idea created by Reddit, which the person I replied to implied.
On January 18 2016 03:59 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 02:58 cheekymonkey wrote:On January 18 2016 02:52 Cyro wrote:On January 18 2016 02:18 cheekymonkey wrote:
Ravagers definitely needs a nerf down the line. The damage output against stationary targets is a little over the top. Perhaps keeping the same damage output against buildings, but nerfed against units. Funnily enough i've seen quite a few people suggest the opposite buff against units, and nerf against buildings? Insanity. Nah, nerf against buildings so that they can't invalidate walls, cannons, bunkers etc. That idea seemed fairly popular
It should be a good case study to get this idea to the top of reddit next time they have a feedback thread which mentions the ravager. Will Blizzard try it out, will they acknowledge it, what are their motives? Drama and excitement guaranteed.
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On January 18 2016 03:53 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 03:48 TheWinks wrote:On January 18 2016 02:38 p68 wrote:On January 18 2016 01:23 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 17 2016 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
sometimes people are funny.
First they are angry that blizzard never listens to feedback and even ignore the most discussed topics and when they finally comment on controversial topics they are angry that DK can't get good ideas himself.
this community is ridicolous. Sorry, I don't want to see this game balanced by the most upvoted comments on a Reddit threat. I must be a very silly people. This idea has been floating around for a long time. Blizzard already mentioned changing tankivacs back in December for TvT.... Yeah and everyone realized why it was a bad idea including blizzard. The only reason there's so many vocal people for it is because it's a tvt change that nerfs terran in tvz and tvp. I was just pointing out that this wasn't an idea created by Reddit, which the person I replied to implied.
They didn't say that. They said that blizzard is being influenced by the most upvoted comments on a random reddit thread, which if you take David Kim's post at face value, Blizzard is.
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On January 18 2016 03:59 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 02:58 cheekymonkey wrote:On January 18 2016 02:52 Cyro wrote:On January 18 2016 02:18 cheekymonkey wrote:
Ravagers definitely needs a nerf down the line. The damage output against stationary targets is a little over the top. Perhaps keeping the same damage output against buildings, but nerfed against units. Funnily enough i've seen quite a few people suggest the opposite buff against units, and nerf against buildings? Insanity. Nah, nerf against buildings so that they can't invalidate walls, cannons, bunkers etc. That idea seemed fairly popular
That kind of defeats the purpose of the ravager as I see it. They are supposed to help busting a fortified position, so being effective against stationary defenses like bunkers/cannons/spines and force fields is a must. But right now it is so effective against units in the middle of a battle as well, especially the less mobile ones. It almost has the function of psi storm against clusters of units as well. They have to spread or move back or be obliterated. I don't like it.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
That kind of defeats the purpose of the ravager as I see it. They are supposed to help busting a fortified position
Their purpose is somewhat subjective, they are good at a lot of stuff
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On November 26 2015 11:27 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:Show nested quote + Like we mentioned before, maintaining this is extremely important, especially at the start of a new game because many new gamers will visit sites such as the Battle.net forums, Teamliquid, or Reddit to check out the game and community. Well.. Sometimes in life, the people with the stick have to lend or otherwise make value of his tool in commune with the ones without that tool. Before I say how spineless these nerds are. Maybe... Criticism has changed over the course of 5years of sc2.. since the decadent decline of an initial userbase (which would be argued of ever having had an influx of population by naysayers, "starcraft was never as big as X, its for hardcore people. Yah") the condition of most of the criticism from early on since then HAS been very constructive. I would argue with the announcement of LoTV More than enough of any users mind was set on Liberating SC2 from shackles and confinements of a multitude of problems never having been addressed. Lots of good ideas were beat down by a segregated community, and lots of ideas blizzard threw into the game were complacently adopted. Much like the spine of the developers asking for you to choose a mild tone, and bare only constructive content lacking your emotional rating... The community to let their rubber arm go even further... How a community adopted a total revision of one unit like the swarmhost 2years into development because it was claimed from beta testing in LoTV it was a liked a lot more by the dev crew and took the game away from stalemates... may be true.. but without much of a whiplash the community took it. a lot of the time SH fall to the wayside unless cleverly timed in unique circumstances. Now what tilted me.. and all the above can be disreguarded... and I did not mean to attack individuals calling people spineless. Just attributing the notion that a large group of people with so much devotion to any part of SC2, took the careless procedure of Blizzard Development to allow them to get mad, or negatively tilted against aspects of 'a game'. hearing people rage on stream.. lol. The community has taken a lot of flack from blizzard turning the cheek all too often, they want our feedback, but they want to look pretty and appealing to new comers.. Im pretty sure if their ducks were in order this kind of statement would be a useless piece of text in a 'community update', and it is. but they've inserted it as a way to conduct something... feedback isnt a matter of conducting and organizing it by giving broadstatements to people to filter their attitude, a good listener doesnt ask someone to speak this way, or that way, or dont get emotional when you're telling about this thing that bothers you, it doesnt look good to the people in the hallway waiting to see me... Its horseshit blizzard.. you're treating a corral of players from 12-50years old like the same idiot that needs to be retold shit over and over. and its stuck inside "insider information". Seems like a big generalization of a vast demographic.. It's horse shit. people should be mad if they're mad at something they bought with whatever amount of time sinked into it wasted away staring at a monitor Zero Income. I bought shoes and the middle of the sole detached from the glue. Middle of a run and it perpetuated a cramp in the arch of my foot for 15km... not mad? naw i cant be, i gotta be constructive. SHOE MAKER! next time you gloe a shoe, DOUBLE Check and make sure MINE is GOOD... Sincerely Runner with leg splints.. Stop letting their bullshit fool you till the end of this train. Play it unattached to the direction the games going, Train your on rides on rails not road. Sooner you get outside and away from their BS the sooner you'll get to increase your baseline happiness. They instigate their own drama. community updates are #hype joke of 2016. Check out crowdfunded star citizen updates. They're interesting, along with that when done reading, a feeling of excitement with the direction they're heading feels right for a game still being designed. I want to add this video to illustrate how silly things are. + Show Spoiler +Feels appropriate to ammend this... main
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It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf
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On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf
Hey, don't talk like that! We have marine/marauder/medivac! You can even add in widow mines or liberators! Just forget the fact that most Terran units are unused/underused....irrelevant details!
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On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf
well to be fair they removed Swarm Host from Zerg with LOTV :D
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On January 18 2016 06:39 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf well to be fair they removed Swarm Host from Zerg with LOTV :D
Great trade for the lurker, though.
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On January 18 2016 06:39 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf well to be fair they removed Swarm Host from Zerg with LOTV :D
Which is one of blizzard best ideas since it completely ruined the game in Hots. Happy that they acknowledged their mistake but they should have also removed the MSC that also ruined the game but instead they buffed it.
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On January 18 2016 07:41 Hurricaned wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 06:39 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf well to be fair they removed Swarm Host from Zerg with LOTV :D Which is one of blizzard best ideas since it completely ruined the game in Hots. Happy that they acknowledged their mistake but they should have also removed the MSC that also ruined the game but instead they buffed it.
The MSC is a necessary defensive tool for protoss and a skilled player can simply go in wait for PO to wear off and then go in again. It is only overpowered in lower leages where people walk into it and fight against PO blindly with small amounts of units, ofcourse then stuff dies, it's the same as walking into widow mines etc
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On January 18 2016 07:43 ProtossMasterRace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 07:41 Hurricaned wrote:On January 18 2016 06:39 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf well to be fair they removed Swarm Host from Zerg with LOTV :D Which is one of blizzard best ideas since it completely ruined the game in Hots. Happy that they acknowledged their mistake but they should have also removed the MSC that also ruined the game but instead they buffed it. The MSC is a necessary defensive tool for protoss and a skilled player can simply go in wait for PO to wear off and then go in again. It is only overpowered in lower leages where people walk into it and fight against PO blindly with small amounts of units, ofcourse then stuff dies, it's the same as walking into widow mines etc
You should know that the existence of the MSC completely revolutionized Protoss; they are allowed to play much greedier simply because it restricts the options of their opponents. It's main strength is not in what it will actually do in a game, it's about its potential.
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I was 80% sure they would remove it or make it not play this huge part in the game.
Instead we got this.
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Remove madivac's movement speed buff spell while they pick up tanks, thats maybe help for vikings and mech plays in TVT to deal with tankivacs or improve their damages versus air units. I dont agree with the remove of the spell, discruptors and revegars would make tanks useless even their damages improved.
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I agree with the MSC stuff i would remove it too or at least change its spells. Recall and po are very bad design issues, also kills early agressions especially for zergs. Make spells like shield battery or something else for it. I miss cannons and sentry defends too
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The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged ..
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On January 18 2016 09:09 Aenteas wrote:I agree with the MSC stuff i would remove it too or at least change its spells. Recall and po are very bad design issues, also kills early agressions especially for zergs. Make spells like shield battery or something else for it. I miss cannons and sentry defends too
The MSC never belonged in the game, ever. And I say that as a Protoss player.
It took real skill to hold early timings in any matchup, and now we've been pressing one key and clicking on a structure to hold similar timings. I just remember how I felt when years of skills that I had honed for holding early attacks had been replaced with a single click. It is really pathetic actually. I've never understood why more people didn't speak out about it.
The MSC should be completely removed and the shield battery should be re-introduced. Give the Nexus an energize ability (with limited range around the Nexus) that fills up the energy of a single caster. Constructed shield batteries should start with 0 energy so they aren't used offensively (so they can't support an offensive 4 Gate) and then have the Nexus energize ones built defensively near the Nexus.
Change forcefields to Time Warp and give Sentries mini-time warps and reduce their gas cost to 75. Then buff Gateway units slightly (Stalkers +1 damage versus armored and slight attack speed increase, Zealots increased attack speed and/or +10 shields, Sentry +1 damage).
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I agree. I remember those times at wings of liberty when we needed to rely on 2 perfect forcefields to hold de MMM timing. It was stressfull, but nonetheless much better!
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On January 19 2016 06:05 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 09:09 Aenteas wrote:I agree with the MSC stuff i would remove it too or at least change its spells. Recall and po are very bad design issues, also kills early agressions especially for zergs. Make spells like shield battery or something else for it. I miss cannons and sentry defends too The MSC never belonged in the game, ever. And I say that as a Protoss player. It took real skill to hold early timings in any matchup, and now we've been pressing one key and clicking on a structure to hold similar timings. I just remember how I felt when years of skills that I had honed for holding early attacks had been replaced with a single click. It is really pathetic actually. I've never understood why more people didn't speak out about it. The MSC should be completely removed and the shield battery should be re-introduced. Give the Nexus an energize ability (with limited range around the Nexus) that fills up the energy of a single caster. Constructed shield batteries should start with 0 energy so they aren't used offensively (so they can't support an offensive 4 Gate) and then have the Nexus energize ones built defensively near the Nexus. Change forcefields to Time Warp and give Sentries mini-time warps and reduce their gas cost to 75. Then buff Gateway units slightly (Stalkers +1 damage versus armored and slight attack speed increase, Zealots increased attack speed and/or +10 shields, Sentry +1 damage).
Careful man, reasonable and straightforward changes like these shouldn't be discussed outside of hushed meetings in seedy basements with passwords to get in, hoods, and animal sacrifices. We especially can't talk about buffing Zealots and Stalkers so they can trade before legs/blink. That's off the menu.
Keep it on the hush hush and the QT next time, or else.
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I've told several times on community interfaces my advices to improve protoss defend play in early game, but i know i am not a pro player and blizzard dont really tend to do what casual players recommend. By decreasing gateway's production times( i mean gateway not warpgate), protoss players could make more units in early game and this update would not affect their early agression's effectiveness, becouse of the range of the enemy base.This would worth a test in my opinion and otherwise this would make protoss macro a litle bit harder(becouse warpgate would worth to use only in an offensive macro option). I think this is better than buffing gateway units wich would affect the mid and lategame ( i think gateway units are fine, just adept need a litle nerf)
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Adepts are insane against Terran. You can take advantageous ground even if you failed to harass with it. Adepts are not only good at blocking scouts, but pressing Terran with its ability. When Terran sees WP, you must place your defense troops regardless of its intention.
Anyway, TvP is biased to Protoss, Absolutely.
I`m not the one to be blamed. I`m not the one who made Adepts - I`m just one who used it.
Thank you Seed for punctuating so heavily his use of adepts in the interviews.
2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
I could agree with this if you could fit two unsieged tanks (picked from sieged) in a single medivac and they auto-resiege the second they unload. In some situations, it would even enhance their behavior.
Currently, LP has dropped sieged tank fire delay at 1.43 seconds.
LP has siege mode duration at 3 seconds.
It would be a nerf of 1.57 seconds or an 105% increase nerf. This doesn't account for the psychological effects of an already sieged tank that might have completed its firing cooldown upon drop versus a tank visually transforming with a calculable time to rush in and kill before first shot.
I've liked their other changes on balance test map and I like that they're willing to tinker with quite a bit on balance customs. I hope he follows through on compensating buffs in damage, production speed, cost, health/armor, or range if the mobility is nerfed in the discussed manner.
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I too would prefer the removal of the MSC. Hero units like that don't actually fit into an RTS. Neither does the mothership, but that has been sufficiently nerfed so it doesn't matter much. It was always really cool for Protoss defense to be a technical task. As has been said, now it's more like pushing the defense button, and the rest comes much easier. It's not an understatement that Protoss builds has become FAR less interesting after the appearance of the MSC. Most notably the massive onslaught of Blink builds, Oracle builds, and now: Adept builds. The MSC did not just make defense easier, it removed an entire facet of Protoss builds.
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On January 19 2016 06:46 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 18 2016 09:09 Aenteas wrote:I agree with the MSC stuff i would remove it too or at least change its spells. Recall and po are very bad design issues, also kills early agressions especially for zergs. Make spells like shield battery or something else for it. I miss cannons and sentry defends too The MSC never belonged in the game, ever. And I say that as a Protoss player. It took real skill to hold early timings in any matchup, and now we've been pressing one key and clicking on a structure to hold similar timings. I just remember how I felt when years of skills that I had honed for holding early attacks had been replaced with a single click. It is really pathetic actually. I've never understood why more people didn't speak out about it. The MSC should be completely removed and the shield battery should be re-introduced. Give the Nexus an energize ability (with limited range around the Nexus) that fills up the energy of a single caster. Constructed shield batteries should start with 0 energy so they aren't used offensively (so they can't support an offensive 4 Gate) and then have the Nexus energize ones built defensively near the Nexus. Change forcefields to Time Warp and give Sentries mini-time warps and reduce their gas cost to 75. Then buff Gateway units slightly (Stalkers +1 damage versus armored and slight attack speed increase, Zealots increased attack speed and/or +10 shields, Sentry +1 damage). Careful man, reasonable and straightforward changes like these shouldn't be discussed outside of hushed meetings in seedy basements with passwords to get in, hoods, and animal sacrifices. We especially can't talk about buffing Zealots and Stalkers so they can trade before legs/blink. That's off the menu. Keep it on the hush hush and the QT next time, or else.
Frankly, I don't see how Zealots being able to fight bio is any better than an MSC defense. Zealot combat is as binary as MSC, only instead of pressing PO+Pylon you're pressing A+behind the Bio.
To dial down my exaggeration, the obvious difference is Zealots take infrastructure to produce and maintain, and you're trading resources and not energy when you use them. Those are not insignificant things. It's a great start. But it's still a far far cry from ideal. Don't be surprised when Terran's aren't overjoyed at the "solution" of being run over by A+more armies.
My solution, going back to the beta, was to replace Guardian Shield with a spell that directly translates a target's shields into a burst of AOE damage. It would give Protoss an early form of AOE that rewarded keen awareness of the battlefield, in terms of shields and unit positioning, and it would tie Protoss units together with a form of synergy like what bio has thanks to the Medivac, from the lowly Zealot to the beefy Archon any unit could be made to work with this ability through micro. (Especially with WP)
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On January 19 2016 07:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +Adepts are insane against Terran. You can take advantageous ground even if you failed to harass with it. Adepts are not only good at blocking scouts, but pressing Terran with its ability. When Terran sees WP, you must place your defense troops regardless of its intention.
Anyway, TvP is biased to Protoss, Absolutely.
I`m not the one to be blamed. I`m not the one who made Adepts - I`m just one who used it. Thank you Seed for punctuating so heavily his use of adepts in the interviews. Show nested quote +
2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
I could agree with this if you could fit two unsieged tanks (picked from sieged) in a single medivac and they auto-resiege the second they unload. In some situations, it would even enhance their behavior. Currently, LP has dropped sieged tank fire delay at 1.43 seconds. LP has siege mode duration at 3 seconds. It would be a nerf of 1.57 seconds or an 105% increase nerf. This doesn't account for the psychological effects of an already sieged tank that might have completed its firing cooldown upon drop versus a tank visually transforming with a calculable time to rush in and kill before first shot. I've liked their other changes on balance test map and I like that they're willing to tinker with quite a bit on balance customs. I hope he follows through on compensating buffs in damage, production speed, cost, health/armor, or range if the mobility is nerfed in the discussed manner.
This could be done with a simply change that makes it when you load a unit in a dropship it didn't override the previous command, so you could shift click on the medivac and shift siege so it sieges when dropped.
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On January 18 2016 07:43 ProtossMasterRace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 07:41 Hurricaned wrote:On January 18 2016 06:39 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 18 2016 06:18 beefITek wrote:
It's funny that toss and zerg have tons of new things in Lotv, and that blizzard is just removing all the time the new things from Terran :D
Not in term of balance, but each step Lotv looks more like Hots for Terran ... What will be new for Terran ? Liberators ... yes, while toss and zerg have like 3 new units and complete new army composition options ...
You are failing harder and harder with the game design of terran.
Seriously, the will be nothing left after that nerf well to be fair they removed Swarm Host from Zerg with LOTV :D Which is one of blizzard best ideas since it completely ruined the game in Hots. Happy that they acknowledged their mistake but they should have also removed the MSC that also ruined the game but instead they buffed it. The MSC is a necessary defensive tool for protoss and a skilled player can simply go in wait for PO to wear off and then go in again. It is only overpowered in lower leages where people walk into it and fight against PO blindly with small amounts of units, ofcourse then stuff dies, it's the same as walking into widow mines etc
Balance should not be a factor when it comes to designing the game properly. If Terrans become weak without their flying tanks and Protoss become weak without their Mothership Core, then so be it. It's the price you pay to get the game balanced on a solid foundation, making the game much healthier in the long run.
I have to concede though, this is Blizzard we're talking about, so they'll probably just nerf it and call it a day. Probably explains why my love for this game is struggling at the moment.
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On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged ..
agree......
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China6327 Posts
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree......
I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ...
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On January 19 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree...... I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ...
Start throwing some suggestions around, then. If you think it's a conversation worth having, start it.
Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons?
Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 19 2016 17:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree...... I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ... Start throwing some suggestions around, then. If you think it's a conversation worth having, start it. Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons? Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
Exactly my thoughts, man! Ravagers can snipe pylons so fast it's only terrifying to imagine what will happen.
Though I am torn apart on this change. On one hand I hate pylon cannons with an endless rage. I hate it more than nexus fortress. And by removing the thing Blizzard may balance properly Protoss. On the other hand - this means that a half of the year is bad for Korean Protoss players and I love to watch Korean Protoss players
I just hate the fact that everyone is crying about terrans when the whole game is in a bad state.
(I also agree that Discobolus is an idiotic unit right now and needs change)
And honestly, I think we need to go back to the beta with following>
Removal of force field - the campaign sentries had good feedback from people, try one of those.
Moving warpgate to much later stage of the game -> buffing T1 gateway units
Removal of the MSC
return of the jedi arbiter
return of some reliable AOE. I know that Colossus is a boring unit, but disruptor shots can be avoided. Which is making Protoss vulnerable when they are in low numbers and dumb when you build them so many you don't care and shoot all the time. And disruptors are not seen that often anyway(in Korea).
I don't understand why Blizzard haven't tried anything really big in beta with Protoss. (well I know that others can say the same about their race, but I care mostly about Protoss ) The biggest change was the removal of chrono and then returning it with its fucked state right now(I mean the control of it).
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On January 19 2016 17:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree...... I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ... Start throwing some suggestions around, then. If you think it's a conversation worth having, start it. Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons? Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
This sums up why my passion is withering. It would seem that Blizzard is completely incapable of looking at the big picture and one would need to teaspoon-feed them every fucking thing.
I play P and these are my emotions: PO nerf? Sure, it's a bandaid thing and feels silly. Adept nerf? Sure, they are too strong early on vs T. However, dear Blizzard, you do realize how screwed the average P would be without them? i can see the suggested adept nerf being ok and playable, but the PO change? It's partytime for Z unless they are changed somehow.
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Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons?
Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
Here is my suggestion (which I wanted to implement for a long time:
1. Nerf Ravager and Roach core stats slightly.
2. Reduce Roach supply to 1 and Ravager supply 3.
Effect --> Nerf Roach/Ravager midgame. Slight buff lategame.
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On January 19 2016 07:23 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:46 Bohemond wrote:On January 19 2016 06:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 18 2016 09:09 Aenteas wrote:I agree with the MSC stuff i would remove it too or at least change its spells. Recall and po are very bad design issues, also kills early agressions especially for zergs. Make spells like shield battery or something else for it. I miss cannons and sentry defends too The MSC never belonged in the game, ever. And I say that as a Protoss player. It took real skill to hold early timings in any matchup, and now we've been pressing one key and clicking on a structure to hold similar timings. I just remember how I felt when years of skills that I had honed for holding early attacks had been replaced with a single click. It is really pathetic actually. I've never understood why more people didn't speak out about it. The MSC should be completely removed and the shield battery should be re-introduced. Give the Nexus an energize ability (with limited range around the Nexus) that fills up the energy of a single caster. Constructed shield batteries should start with 0 energy so they aren't used offensively (so they can't support an offensive 4 Gate) and then have the Nexus energize ones built defensively near the Nexus. Change forcefields to Time Warp and give Sentries mini-time warps and reduce their gas cost to 75. Then buff Gateway units slightly (Stalkers +1 damage versus armored and slight attack speed increase, Zealots increased attack speed and/or +10 shields, Sentry +1 damage). Careful man, reasonable and straightforward changes like these shouldn't be discussed outside of hushed meetings in seedy basements with passwords to get in, hoods, and animal sacrifices. We especially can't talk about buffing Zealots and Stalkers so they can trade before legs/blink. That's off the menu. Keep it on the hush hush and the QT next time, or else. Frankly, I don't see how Zealots being able to fight bio is any better than an MSC defense. Zealot combat is as binary as MSC, only instead of pressing PO+Pylon you're pressing A+behind the Bio. To dial down my exaggeration, the obvious difference is Zealots take infrastructure to produce and maintain, and you're trading resources and not energy when you use them. Those are not insignificant things. It's a great start. But it's still a far far cry from ideal. Don't be surprised when Terran's aren't overjoyed at the "solution" of being run over by A+more armies. My solution, going back to the beta, was to replace Guardian Shield with a spell that directly translates a target's shields into a burst of AOE damage. It would give Protoss an early form of AOE that rewarded keen awareness of the battlefield, in terms of shields and unit positioning, and it would tie Protoss units together with a form of synergy like what bio has thanks to the Medivac, from the lowly Zealot to the beefy Archon any unit could be made to work with this ability through micro. (Especially with WP)
To respond to that, I think the best approach would be to ask whether buffing the zealot would overall improve the game even if in its specific case it doesn't require any micro to use. Because I would say that the zealot is a much more normal unit than the MsC and leads itself to better game dynamics, like what you mentioned with them relating to infrastructure and such. And the zealot also forces more micro from the opponent, the skill limit of marines vs zealots is more or less infinite while photon overcharge mostly should have you make the binary decision of running or fleeing. Zealots are also more reusable, you have to constantly execute threatening manoeuvres with them and even when you commit you can flee and live another day.
So overall, even if the zealot itself being powerful is not ideal, the game might improve.
An idea I had once for changing the sentry was to make them quite a bit faster than zealots, but to change guardian shield so that it roots the sentry to the ground for the time being, but it would give +3 instead of +2 armor maybe. That way you would need your zealots to stay in range and also defend the sentry while making it so that the terran or zerg would need fast (zerglings, reapers) or ranged (marauders, tanks) units to take out the sentries, or even stuff like burrowed roaches and blink stalkers. i.e. it makes the sentry a combination of the lurker and dark swarm. It seems cool, but it's untested.
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On January 19 2016 18:40 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons?
Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again? Here is my suggestion (which I wanted to implement for a long time: 1. Nerf Ravager and Roach core stats slightly. 2. Reduce Roach supply to 1 and Ravager supply 3. Effect --> Nerf Roach/Ravager midgame. Slight buff lategame.
I honestly think a Roach structure upgrade for Ravagers Lair which enables with Lair Tech fixes EVERYTHING, and maybe even warrants a Ravager buff.
Or give them the Armored flag, that would help a ton with stalkers, immortals, tanks etc dealing less damage,
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Ravager either needs to be armored or Lair tech, or some other nerf like increasing the bile shot cooldown, for sure. Protoss units don't deal enough damage to it period (except disruptor). It's also the main core unit in all the matchups afaik.
The Lurker should have always been +damage against light instead of armored, to buff them against terran bio/zealots and nerf them against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks. I really don't understand how Blizz hasn't tried it tbh. It just feels logical.
On the other hand, the last community feedback updates have all been steps in the right direction (and with all the ideas that the community has been suggesting for a while) so there's hope.
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On January 19 2016 20:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
Ravager either needs to be armored or Lair tech, or some other nerf like increasing the bile shot cooldown, for sure. Protoss units don't deal enough damage to it period (except disruptor). It's also the main core unit in all the matchups afaik.
The Lurker should have always been +damage against light instead of armored, to buff them against terran bio/zealots and nerf them against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks. I really don't understand how Blizz hasn't tried it tbh. It just feels logical.
On the other hand, the last community feedback updates have all been steps in the right direction (and with all the ideas that the community has been suggesting for a while) so there's hope.
The reason why the lurker is +damage vs armored is because it would overlap too much with the baneling. Also as a Zerg player I feel like there seems to be a large group of the community arguing against the ravagers early game strength but since the release of legacy Zerg win rates are stabilizing because players are dealing with our countering these builds better.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Silly question, in PvZ if people are worried about Pylon overcharge, why not build, y'know Cannons? Cannons are what you're supposed to build in that situation.
In BW for example if someone Shine'd you either you build a bunch of cannons or you die. Are cannons that bad against ravagers?
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On January 20 2016 16:31 Qikz wrote:
Silly question, in PvZ if people are worried about Pylon overcharge, why not build, y'know Cannons? Cannons are what you're supposed to build in that situation.
In BW for example if someone Shine'd you either you build a bunch of cannons or you die. Are cannons that bad against ravagers?
Cannons have fewer hp than pylons and are handily outranged by the Ravager's bile. You can build a Gateway or a cannon. Which is the better use of 150 minerals?
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On January 16 2016 11:48 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Oh you are right I did mistake. I should say "Most people agree on that". People told me before that I should not use" all" and "everyone", because there is always some person who has opinion difference and he has right to do so ! Most ppl are actually sayin zerg is the best race atm. stats shows it to.
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Yup as long as Ravager's bile hurts buildings and at such range, even if the cannon were to be buffed (let's say +1 range) it would still be bad in PvZ. It's just wasted money compared to a pylon, since it's gonna die even sooner.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 20 2016 16:39 idkfa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 16:31 Qikz wrote:
Silly question, in PvZ if people are worried about Pylon overcharge, why not build, y'know Cannons? Cannons are what you're supposed to build in that situation.
In BW for example if someone Shine'd you either you build a bunch of cannons or you die. Are cannons that bad against ravagers? Cannons have fewer hp than pylons and are handily outranged by the Ravager's bile. You can build a Gateway or a cannon. Which is the better use of 150 minerals?
Well if you're going to die due to lack of units anyway, probably a canon is a better use. Building that gateway and only getting one extra zealot isn't going to save you. Spamming cannons gives you a better chance I guess.
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Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context
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On January 20 2016 22:15 beefITek wrote:
Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context
Same for PvZ
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NERF ADEPTS !!!
David Kim take a look on last pvt in SSL and GSl : Bomber and alive got rekt by adepts this matchup is disgusting and totally imbalanced...
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On January 21 2016 19:09 bObA wrote:
NERF ADEPTS !!!
David Kim take a look on last pvt in SSL and GSl : Bomber and alive got rekt by adepts this matchup is disgusting and totally imbalanced...
TY won because he is the only who can go through that, like Maru was the only one in HOTS to dal with colossi without vikings, and also because Patience made big mistakes and did not use adepts every single games as other protoss are currently doing
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On January 20 2016 22:15 beefITek wrote:
Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context
SSL will still be going on for months to come. There's no way the next patch doesn't land in the middle of a high profile tournament.
Just patch already.
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On January 21 2016 21:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 22:15 beefITek wrote:
Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context SSL will still be going on for months to come. There's no way the next patch doesn't land in the middle of a high profile tournament. Just patch already.
Agreed. If we continue with that mentality, it will be a long time before the game reaches a healthier state, because we all now it's going to take a lot more changes than the next patch will bring.
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I think the balance team needs to look to the past for help with ZvP. In WOL beta the roach was less supply and could shoot air. They changed the supply because they were too massable (a good change) but took away the air attack because it overlapped with the hydra too much. at that time the only thing the hydra was there for was as a ground to air unit. There was no point in making them because the roach handled air to ground.
Fast forward back to current LOTV. the reason the ravager was developed is because there has always been a hole in the zerg army. In HOTS there was no decent early/mid anti air that can be mobile enough to defend against air units. They need to get rid of the ravager and give the roach an upgrade at the roach warren at hatch tech that allows it to shoot air. It doesn't need to be a strong attack, just something that a pack of roaches could chase a banshee, medivac, warp prism, oracle etc... away.. It no longer makes the hydra obsolete because you need them to get lurkers. It gets rid of the huge range of ravagers and gets rid of the ravager pushes. They only pushed out the ravager because they wanted to roll out a new unit so people wouldn't complain that this race got this but mine got nothing etc... Changing the roach slightly would have skipped this whole mess.
I know it's a pipe dream, they are not going to remove a unit at this point.
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3. We're currently aiming for next week to release the balance test map.
4. We would love to get everyone's help in aggressively testing these changes so that we can quickly turn around a balance update as early as the week after next.
I dont expect the balance map to go live today or tomorrow. So the patch is going to be "delayed" for another week.
Tony the tiger says: GGGGGRRRRRRRREEEEEAAAAT! [/sarcasm]
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Blizzard just open your eyes. You buffed broodlords, ultras, now they have lurkers too (insane dmg and no micro required), what are we supposed to do in this game if we are not zerg? even with nydus we cant kill it cause transfuse. You guys wanna all comunity to be zerg or what is the point? You remove collossus, and this timewarp are such a big jokes. This game is not playable on PvZ, or TvZ, if we are not progamers. Every patch in the beta was nerf terran or protoss and no commentary about zerg, and now look what happened. I know so many people that is quitting, you are just ruining the best game of the history.
Enjoy your ladder making ultras, David.
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PvZ winrates soon in single digits and they focus on terran. DansGame
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In Dreamhack Leipzig in R16, we have 7 protoss, 8 zergs and 1 terran.
There were 6 terrans in R32.
The only one who went through is uthermal who fought vs a zerg.
All the 5 other terrans lost against protoss....
Has it not been enough clear yet David ?
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Hm, not really understanding why they are delaying so heavily on these balance changes, although I do like the "stop and wait" approach for Starcraft balance generally speaking there are too many glaring issues that need to be (slowly and over time) addressed and changed.
Adepts are for sure overpowered vs. T but they also seem to get guaranteed 100% damage done vs Z as well, not that Protoss doesn't probably need a little nudge in ZvP but having a unit thats always going to do drone line damage is annoying as hell and not very skillful design imo, relies more on the Protoss making mistakes then the opponents playing well.
Nydus worms are just flat out silly, the invulnerable thing is lazy, OP and thoughtless. Ultralisks are hilariously strong vs. Terran while still being pretty terrible vs. Protoss, and Swarm Hosts might as well be removed from the game, next to the Cyclone it's now the worst unit that exists in the game, it fills no niche due to mech not being all too viable and the cost for damage is absurd, they should have just removed the unit with the "design changes" they applied to it.
Might be time to start looking into buffing Gateway units in general to pack a bit more punch in small numbers while toning down the OP pick up abilities of the Prism, Protoss armies in general just seem to melt to lots of thing Zerg has now, Vipers, Lurkers, , Brood Lords, I think it's time to start looking to very very tiny buffs.
Terran is just fine, the Liberator is pretty irritating with how many roles it excels at and the behind the drone line thing is a wee bit absurd but whatever there are ways to counter them, my main beef with ZvT is how over the top useless the Mutalisk has become now that Terran has 6+ ways of dealing with them,
More then any of that crap however, is the damn map pool, it's really bad, we desperately need some solid and well tuned community made maps, it's been shown time and time again that good maps creates good balance, not the other way around, Blizzard needs to just completely remove themselves from the map making scene and start putting more effort into rewarding the map makers that are still left. David seems obsessed with "not having the same map over and over" but if a map is solid and well designed, it's solid and well designed, doesn't matter if it's a macro map or not, not every map has to be Ulrena.
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EPT
