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On January 19 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree...... I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ...
Start throwing some suggestions around, then. If you think it's a conversation worth having, start it.
Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons?
Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On January 19 2016 17:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree...... I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ... Start throwing some suggestions around, then. If you think it's a conversation worth having, start it. Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons? Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
Exactly my thoughts, man! Ravagers can snipe pylons so fast it's only terrifying to imagine what will happen.
Though I am torn apart on this change. On one hand I hate pylon cannons with an endless rage. I hate it more than nexus fortress. And by removing the thing Blizzard may balance properly Protoss. On the other hand - this means that a half of the year is bad for Korean Protoss players and I love to watch Korean Protoss players 
I just hate the fact that everyone is crying about terrans when the whole game is in a bad state.
(I also agree that Discobolus is an idiotic unit right now and needs change)
And honestly, I think we need to go back to the beta with following>
Removal of force field - the campaign sentries had good feedback from people, try one of those.
Moving warpgate to much later stage of the game -> buffing T1 gateway units
Removal of the MSC
return of the jedi arbiter
return of some reliable AOE. I know that Colossus is a boring unit, but disruptor shots can be avoided. Which is making Protoss vulnerable when they are in low numbers and dumb when you build them so many you don't care and shoot all the time. And disruptors are not seen that often anyway(in Korea).
I don't understand why Blizzard haven't tried anything really big in beta with Protoss. (well I know that others can say the same about their race, but I care mostly about Protoss ) The biggest change was the removal of chrono and then returning it with its fucked state right now(I mean the control of it).
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On January 19 2016 17:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 16:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 19 2016 11:31 bObA wrote:On January 19 2016 05:46 beefITek wrote:
The most pityfull thing is that there are only 2 GSL a year, all korean career is based on that, and now, all Terran that face Toss will have their half year ruined ...
-> eSport is well encouraged .. agree...... I love how everyone is crazy about TvP but no one is crazy about PvZ... Start throwing some suggestions around, then. If you think it's a conversation worth having, start it. Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons? Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
This sums up why my passion is withering. It would seem that Blizzard is completely incapable of looking at the big picture and one would need to teaspoon-feed them every fucking thing.
I play P and these are my emotions: PO nerf? Sure, it's a bandaid thing and feels silly. Adept nerf? Sure, they are too strong early on vs T. However, dear Blizzard, you do realize how screwed the average P would be without them? i can see the suggested adept nerf being ok and playable, but the PO change? It's partytime for Z unless they are changed somehow.
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Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons?
Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again?
Here is my suggestion (which I wanted to implement for a long time:
1. Nerf Ravager and Roach core stats slightly.
2. Reduce Roach supply to 1 and Ravager supply 3.
Effect --> Nerf Roach/Ravager midgame. Slight buff lategame.
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On January 19 2016 07:23 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:46 Bohemond wrote:On January 19 2016 06:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 18 2016 09:09 Aenteas wrote:I agree with the MSC stuff i would remove it too or at least change its spells. Recall and po are very bad design issues, also kills early agressions especially for zergs. Make spells like shield battery or something else for it. I miss cannons and sentry defends too  The MSC never belonged in the game, ever. And I say that as a Protoss player. It took real skill to hold early timings in any matchup, and now we've been pressing one key and clicking on a structure to hold similar timings. I just remember how I felt when years of skills that I had honed for holding early attacks had been replaced with a single click. It is really pathetic actually. I've never understood why more people didn't speak out about it. The MSC should be completely removed and the shield battery should be re-introduced. Give the Nexus an energize ability (with limited range around the Nexus) that fills up the energy of a single caster. Constructed shield batteries should start with 0 energy so they aren't used offensively (so they can't support an offensive 4 Gate) and then have the Nexus energize ones built defensively near the Nexus. Change forcefields to Time Warp and give Sentries mini-time warps and reduce their gas cost to 75. Then buff Gateway units slightly (Stalkers +1 damage versus armored and slight attack speed increase, Zealots increased attack speed and/or +10 shields, Sentry +1 damage). Careful man, reasonable and straightforward changes like these shouldn't be discussed outside of hushed meetings in seedy basements with passwords to get in, hoods, and animal sacrifices. We especially can't talk about buffing Zealots and Stalkers so they can trade before legs/blink. That's off the menu. Keep it on the hush hush and the QT next time, or else. Frankly, I don't see how Zealots being able to fight bio is any better than an MSC defense. Zealot combat is as binary as MSC, only instead of pressing PO+Pylon you're pressing A+behind the Bio. To dial down my exaggeration, the obvious difference is Zealots take infrastructure to produce and maintain, and you're trading resources and not energy when you use them. Those are not insignificant things. It's a great start. But it's still a far far cry from ideal. Don't be surprised when Terran's aren't overjoyed at the "solution" of being run over by A+more armies. My solution, going back to the beta, was to replace Guardian Shield with a spell that directly translates a target's shields into a burst of AOE damage. It would give Protoss an early form of AOE that rewarded keen awareness of the battlefield, in terms of shields and unit positioning, and it would tie Protoss units together with a form of synergy like what bio has thanks to the Medivac, from the lowly Zealot to the beefy Archon any unit could be made to work with this ability through micro. (Especially with WP)
To respond to that, I think the best approach would be to ask whether buffing the zealot would overall improve the game even if in its specific case it doesn't require any micro to use. Because I would say that the zealot is a much more normal unit than the MsC and leads itself to better game dynamics, like what you mentioned with them relating to infrastructure and such. And the zealot also forces more micro from the opponent, the skill limit of marines vs zealots is more or less infinite while photon overcharge mostly should have you make the binary decision of running or fleeing. Zealots are also more reusable, you have to constantly execute threatening manoeuvres with them and even when you commit you can flee and live another day.
So overall, even if the zealot itself being powerful is not ideal, the game might improve.
An idea I had once for changing the sentry was to make them quite a bit faster than zealots, but to change guardian shield so that it roots the sentry to the ground for the time being, but it would give +3 instead of +2 armor maybe. That way you would need your zealots to stay in range and also defend the sentry while making it so that the terran or zerg would need fast (zerglings, reapers) or ranged (marauders, tanks) units to take out the sentries, or even stuff like burrowed roaches and blink stalkers. i.e. it makes the sentry a combination of the lurker and dark swarm. It seems cool, but it's untested. 
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On January 19 2016 18:40 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Here's my contribution after watching Stats vs DeParture - Blizzard seems set on nerfing PO to make it less spammable, which is fantastic and I totally agree, but how are Protoss going to survive Ravagers who couldn't be happier that PO will be doing more damage from fewer Pylons?
Considering that Ravagers are just as frightening in TvZ, this seems like a Ravager issue and not a PO issue. Is it time we started talking about Ravagers again? Here is my suggestion (which I wanted to implement for a long time: 1. Nerf Ravager and Roach core stats slightly. 2. Reduce Roach supply to 1 and Ravager supply 3. Effect --> Nerf Roach/Ravager midgame. Slight buff lategame.
I honestly think a Roach structure upgrade for Ravagers Lair which enables with Lair Tech fixes EVERYTHING, and maybe even warrants a Ravager buff.
Or give them the Armored flag, that would help a ton with stalkers, immortals, tanks etc dealing less damage,
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Ravager either needs to be armored or Lair tech, or some other nerf like increasing the bile shot cooldown, for sure. Protoss units don't deal enough damage to it period (except disruptor). It's also the main core unit in all the matchups afaik.
The Lurker should have always been +damage against light instead of armored, to buff them against terran bio/zealots and nerf them against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks. I really don't understand how Blizz hasn't tried it tbh. It just feels logical.
On the other hand, the last community feedback updates have all been steps in the right direction (and with all the ideas that the community has been suggesting for a while) so there's hope.
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On January 19 2016 20:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
Ravager either needs to be armored or Lair tech, or some other nerf like increasing the bile shot cooldown, for sure. Protoss units don't deal enough damage to it period (except disruptor). It's also the main core unit in all the matchups afaik.
The Lurker should have always been +damage against light instead of armored, to buff them against terran bio/zealots and nerf them against stalkers/immortals/siege tanks. I really don't understand how Blizz hasn't tried it tbh. It just feels logical.
On the other hand, the last community feedback updates have all been steps in the right direction (and with all the ideas that the community has been suggesting for a while) so there's hope.
The reason why the lurker is +damage vs armored is because it would overlap too much with the baneling. Also as a Zerg player I feel like there seems to be a large group of the community arguing against the ravagers early game strength but since the release of legacy Zerg win rates are stabilizing because players are dealing with our countering these builds better.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
Silly question, in PvZ if people are worried about Pylon overcharge, why not build, y'know Cannons? Cannons are what you're supposed to build in that situation.
In BW for example if someone Shine'd you either you build a bunch of cannons or you die. Are cannons that bad against ravagers?
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On January 20 2016 16:31 Qikz wrote:
Silly question, in PvZ if people are worried about Pylon overcharge, why not build, y'know Cannons? Cannons are what you're supposed to build in that situation.
In BW for example if someone Shine'd you either you build a bunch of cannons or you die. Are cannons that bad against ravagers?
Cannons have fewer hp than pylons and are handily outranged by the Ravager's bile. You can build a Gateway or a cannon. Which is the better use of 150 minerals?
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On January 16 2016 11:48 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 11:44 TheWinks wrote:On January 16 2016 11:38 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 16 2016 11:31 TheWinks wrote:In the face of things like ravagers, disruptors, and adepts, this is not the time to nerf tankivacs. There are untouched mech units that can be changed to help mech in both tvt and the other matchups. The hellion, the hellbat, the thor, the viking. If terran were overpowered, we can throw changing the medivac/tank relationship on the table. It's not like we're going to be seeing a lot of tvts anyway Current balance is T>Z>P>T . We all agree on that. Mech is not good. That true, but tankivac drop is great idea. In korea the truth is that T>>Z. Korea has great terran players who abuse crucial timings so game becomes hard for Zerg. No we don't. Oh you are right I did mistake. I should say "Most people agree on that". People told me before that I should not use" all" and "everyone", because there is always some person who has opinion difference and he has right to do so !  Most ppl are actually sayin zerg is the best race atm. stats shows it to.
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Yup as long as Ravager's bile hurts buildings and at such range, even if the cannon were to be buffed (let's say +1 range) it would still be bad in PvZ. It's just wasted money compared to a pylon, since it's gonna die even sooner.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
On January 20 2016 16:39 idkfa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 16:31 Qikz wrote:
Silly question, in PvZ if people are worried about Pylon overcharge, why not build, y'know Cannons? Cannons are what you're supposed to build in that situation.
In BW for example if someone Shine'd you either you build a bunch of cannons or you die. Are cannons that bad against ravagers? Cannons have fewer hp than pylons and are handily outranged by the Ravager's bile. You can build a Gateway or a cannon. Which is the better use of 150 minerals?
Well if you're going to die due to lack of units anyway, probably a canon is a better use. Building that gateway and only getting one extra zealot isn't going to save you. Spamming cannons gives you a better chance I guess.
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Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context
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On January 20 2016 22:15 beefITek wrote:
Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context
Same for PvZ
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NERF ADEPTS !!!
David Kim take a look on last pvt in SSL and GSl : Bomber and alive got rekt by adepts this matchup is disgusting and totally imbalanced...
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On January 21 2016 19:09 bObA wrote:
NERF ADEPTS !!!
David Kim take a look on last pvt in SSL and GSl : Bomber and alive got rekt by adepts this matchup is disgusting and totally imbalanced...
TY won because he is the only who can go through that, like Maru was the only one in HOTS to dal with colossi without vikings, and also because Patience made big mistakes and did not use adepts every single games as other protoss are currently doing
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On January 20 2016 22:15 beefITek wrote:
Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context
SSL will still be going on for months to come. There's no way the next patch doesn't land in the middle of a high profile tournament.
Just patch already.
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On January 21 2016 21:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 22:15 beefITek wrote:
Blizzard knows there is an issue with Tvp, they have some ideas to fix but wait ... GSL is going on so they can't push the patch before code A is over..
so we need to wait for 2 more weeks of imba just because of unfairness if some T are more balanced than others :DD
silly game context SSL will still be going on for months to come. There's no way the next patch doesn't land in the middle of a high profile tournament. Just patch already.
Agreed. If we continue with that mentality, it will be a long time before the game reaches a healthier state, because we all now it's going to take a lot more changes than the next patch will bring.
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I think the balance team needs to look to the past for help with ZvP. In WOL beta the roach was less supply and could shoot air. They changed the supply because they were too massable (a good change) but took away the air attack because it overlapped with the hydra too much. at that time the only thing the hydra was there for was as a ground to air unit. There was no point in making them because the roach handled air to ground.
Fast forward back to current LOTV. the reason the ravager was developed is because there has always been a hole in the zerg army. In HOTS there was no decent early/mid anti air that can be mobile enough to defend against air units. They need to get rid of the ravager and give the roach an upgrade at the roach warren at hatch tech that allows it to shoot air. It doesn't need to be a strong attack, just something that a pack of roaches could chase a banshee, medivac, warp prism, oracle etc... away.. It no longer makes the hydra obsolete because you need them to get lurkers. It gets rid of the huge range of ravagers and gets rid of the ravager pushes. They only pushed out the ravager because they wanted to roll out a new unit so people wouldn't complain that this race got this but mine got nothing etc... Changing the roach slightly would have skipped this whole mess.
I know it's a pipe dream, they are not going to remove a unit at this point.
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EPT
