|
I wonder how the feedback from PL coaches would be..
|
Just to re-iterate what others said: The reason as a mech player in TvP and TvZ I don't move out but turtle (to make a switch to air generally) is because mech is bad. Moving out is suicidal. When your number one reason for losing from a good position is "I moved out", you quickly realise you shouldn't do that if you want to win.
At the same time I received enough abuse from Zergs that I was only a filthy turtler, while I was destroying half their bases I was still turtling according to them (and this was early-mid game). Or recently a protoss who also considered my a filthy turtler who I didn't harass, because he build tons of cannons around every base he had to make an air armada, and then I was the turtler.
|
On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote:
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race. The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset. So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well.
Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
|
On January 14 2016 14:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 04:14 NomaKasd wrote:On January 14 2016 03:46 blade55555 wrote:
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style. Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull. Completely misinformed. A stronger and actually viable tank will on the contrary encourage more action, because a mech player will be able to move out on the map with a squad of units to control space and secure areas. The reason mech involves turtling now is because tanks are garbage until you get 15 of them and are not at all cost effective in low numbers. This can easily be fixed by removing overkill protection and greatly buffing the damage.
Typical mech argument : more action : the true meaning of this is they will win the game way faster and easily so it's more action for them....
Control space and area : you want to slowly push with no possibility for other to have any sort of counter play vs this. By the way Photon overcharge is securing space, so it's good right ?
Not surprised if Mech is the style the worst players love the must, they don't want a strategic game where the most clever, the most talented win, they just want them vs some kind of IA (the other players), if they don't do any mistake they will win 100%, and the other army die under tank shot without killing anything...
I have no problem beating mech players, but it's more boring than and i prefer a game where I lose vs bio. And when they lose while they stay passive, be outplayed, they ragequit or insult, come on balance topic and "Plz buff mech, it's not me who is bad, it's just mech isn't really viable..."
If you really want some interesting mech, you don't want a tank centric mech, you rather want to nerf tank range when it's sieged, and buff the other mech units.
For ZvZ, i don't really understand DK. It's miror, mutas are not weak at all, pro players plays much more mutas play than on HOTS, you can mass them, transition to roach, lurker, or ultra, it's good vs ravagers/lurker.
If you nerf spores, it will just make only mutas vs mutas war while currently there is so many different strategies.
Plz don't touch anything to this match up, it's currently the best mirror.
|
I get why mech isn't the most exciting by action in the world, but I still really enjoyed the excitement through tension that mech always brought to the table.
|
On January 14 2016 16:32 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 14:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 14 2016 04:14 NomaKasd wrote:On January 14 2016 03:46 blade55555 wrote:
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style. Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull. Completely misinformed. A stronger and actually viable tank will on the contrary encourage more action, because a mech player will be able to move out on the map with a squad of units to control space and secure areas. The reason mech involves turtling now is because tanks are garbage until you get 15 of them and are not at all cost effective in low numbers. This can easily be fixed by removing overkill protection and greatly buffing the damage. Not surprised if Mech is the style the worst players love the must, they don't want a strategic game where the most clever, the most talented win,
Typical post from the, lets say, less talented, who don't realise they play a strategy game. Always the worst players who think they should win because they managed to follow a BO from youtube and click faster than their opponent. But proper decission making, good positioning and actual strategic decissions are undesirable for these players.
If you really want some interesting mech, you don't want a tank centric mech, you rather want to nerf tank range when it's sieged, and buff the other mech units.
Color me surprised. Instead of buffing the unit that defines mech play and is already weak, you want to nerf it to useless and make mech more interesting by making it about massing and a-moving a hellbat + thor army? Maybe the issue in this discussion is that people have a completely different definition of 'interesting'.
|
On January 14 2016 06:33 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 06:29 DinoMight wrote:On January 14 2016 06:24 crazedrat wrote:On January 14 2016 06:19 DinoMight wrote:On January 14 2016 06:16 crazedrat wrote:On January 14 2016 06:05 DinoMight wrote:On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote:
Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech. Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game. The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb). Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport? Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran. Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate? Quit being a dick. First of all I've said that "mech is said not to be viable" referencing other people on this forum. Second, I have a lot of experience playing AND watching StarCraft 2 to comfortably stand by that statement. Third, it fucking makes sense doesn't it? A unit that can make tanks not shoot and kills Vikings in an AoE? Hey, brilliant one. At the end of HOTS Mech was very strong in TvZ, and blinding cloud was around then, wasn't it? Well that hasn't changed. Now the starport has been very buffed, and we have parasitic bomb... parasitic bomb is not a magic solution, it hits one unit, you spread the unit out... you have Thors hitting the vipers, you have liberators and vikings. Last time I checked they were buffing Thors AA damage to ignore armored too. Your banshees are fast, you dont even need large numbers... Go ahead and add ghosts. Actually parasitic bomb in TvZ mech is not nearly as strong as I hear everyone saying it is. Let's go over the things Mech has added in LOTV: -cyclones (none of you know how to use them yet) -liberators -banshee speed -BC can warp anywhere Hmmm Actually now the maps squeeze together more quickly it helps mech believe it or not, I hear everyone saying the econ change hurt mech but no, it didn't, you want the map to mine out as a mech player. Good time for mech.
Mech wasn't stong vs Zerg in HotS. Skyterran was, but I still don't think skyterran won more games than lost. I think all the discussions about mech just shows that many people are passionate about it and want it to work. I also can't remember a boring professional mech game except when swarm hosts were a thing.
|
Mech needs to be able to harass, poke and set up attacks on the map for it to work, be fun to play with and fun to play against.
I hear that if mech gets buffed, it will be unbreakable which i dont buy.
To fight mech today you amove pretty much.
To fight mech when its buffed, you need to position your units before you amove. Flank, draw widow mines.
You can also use drop to use at the tank line.
Toss and zerg has better macro than mech has. Warpgate=two cycles instead of one in lategame. With Chronoboost a bit more.
Zerg=remax instantly in lategame.
And no, the mech units wont auto-target it since if u have other air units thats the priority and if you dont have other air units, the thors/cyclones or w.e will still auto-target the ground units.
HARDCOUNTERS SUCK!
Instead of nagging about that mech is so boring. Why not nag that the hardcounters needs to change in this game.
I want a better and healthy game. I do not want a niche change that doesnt change anything in the long run.
Some things to think about for mech:
a) HELLBAT, change this terrible boring a-move unit.
b) Thor, clunky, hard to control. Hard to micro. Why not look at this unit and say "hey, maybe this is one of the key units to bring mech into the fine line"
c) Cyclone, Can be fun to use in the early game since u need to position it, micro it, just be careful all around.
But then it loses its purpose for good i would most likely say. Still have some use in tvt but this is about NONE-MIRRORS.
Look at this unit and say "Hm can mech work if this units gets some love"?
d) TANK. This unit is tricky. So many of the factory units are just lacklusting in either power or control or utility.
So where exactly do tank stand?
e) Viking, I dont call viking mech here BUT what this unit do is it kinda neglects alot of things with its mega range and therefore it makes it so very stale.
I would seriously want this unit changed to, might indirectly make things more interesting.
Lets imagine viking were changed to 6range. Now vipers would dominate but changing vipers would be an easier thing to do, right?
Colossus would need to have less range though, which would mean lurkers would outrange them. Would be problematic but still worth to look at and then change these relationships to.
Now on top of my head i cant think of any more hardcounters than the viper.
One last thing here, i dont call MECH bringing in medivacs. I would not like if mech was depondant on medivacs which they might be if vipers dont get changed for example.
Mech is mech=The factory units. PLEASE dont call air units mech even though they are mechanical. BLIZZARD PLZ dont do that. Mech=factory units, thats what it was called in BROODWAR and SC2.
What iam saying is that people called mech in sc2 the factory units till some other ppl started to add in airunits(blizzard you did this, shame on you) to the mech say.
It doesnt differentiate itself well if all mechanical units is called "mech".
So if blizz wants mech to work, they should focus on the factory units alone and not be reliant on other support units.
|
On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote:
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race. The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset. So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote:
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race. The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset. So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
|
I honestly think he just makes up half of his stuff. He says he takes pro feedback but then says it has little influence because people say different things (no kidding dawg)...
|
Open your eyes. You want factory play without being reliant on support units, ok. So say that's balanced, say we reach a state in which factory units alone can deal with current compositions (whether straight up or there are mobility interactions) half of the time. Then how insanely stupid does the Terran player have to be to not add ghosts that fuck key units with Snipe and EMP or ravens that make your composition invulnerable to projectiles and have a run away or lose button that they conveniently activate after you have already commited to the combat. How dense do you have to be not to build vikings as a reaction to certain air units like Broodlords. No matter if Thor/Cyclone/Widow Mine cuts it, Thor/Cyclone/Widow Mine/Viking is better because broods dont shoot up.
And who in their right mind would skip liberators completely?
Open your eyes. You are still playing Terran and not some Fantasy Transformer race limited to the factory. And don't even come with abstruse arguments about nerfing everything down until you can live in your little dreamworld. Blizzard's not going to remodel the whole game and it's going to screw up bio a lot because they need a lot of those units to be as they are.
Mech is going to be viable with the Starport and with the ghosts, or not at all.
|
On January 14 2016 03:58 Ghanburighan wrote:Love the personal story. Regarding ``mech'', I guess DinoMight's thread will provide some insight: original thread. Am I the only one that didn't quite get what they're testing with the energy change for overcharge? It's going to cost 25 more? So instead of 6 pylons, 3 will be overcharged?
Well if you are playing vs P and he has that much energy, your approach is wrong.
Force overcharge and move position.
You are thinking he can overcharge to win. He is thinking he can overcharge to not die. Now you will make this less of a thing.
|
On January 14 2016 19:17 -Kyo- wrote:
I honestly think he just makes up half of his stuff. He says he takes pro feedback but then says it has little influence because people say different things (no kidding dawg)...
And he doesn't know why mech doesn't work and then provides 2 examples as to why it doesn't.
|
I would like to see Ravagers get an Armored Tag. They just don't seem to die against Siege Tanks and Marauders.
Additionally, please experiment with nerfing the Ultralisk Chitanous Plating from +4 to +3 and find a way to make Liberators less powerful when massed, as mass Liberator is a boring and silly strategy.
Lastly, I've been mentioning that Adept change for ages. GJ!
#armchairbalancing
|
On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote:
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race. The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset. So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
EDIT: Polt would take a third, wait, and then hit a 2-2 timing with Marine-Tank while securing a 4th in the middle of the map. Probably hit around the same time, if not later, than the 150ish supply mech timing.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote:
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race. The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset. So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Edit: IIRC it was Life vs Maru, Terraform, PL Playoff.
|
On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote:
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race. The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset. So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 10:16 Vanadiel wrote:
[quote]
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants. Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
|
On January 14 2016 15:41 Sissors wrote:
Just to re-iterate what others said: The reason as a mech player in TvP and TvZ I don't move out but turtle (to make a switch to air generally) is because mech is bad. Moving out is suicidal. When your number one reason for losing from a good position is "I moved out", you quickly realise you shouldn't do that if you want to win.
At the same time I received enough abuse from Zergs that I was only a filthy turtler, while I was destroying half their bases I was still turtling according to them (and this was early-mid game). Or recently a protoss who also considered my a filthy turtler who I didn't harass, because he build tons of cannons around every base he had to make an air armada, and then I was the turtler.
People being bm on ladder is irrelevant to any arguments of design/balance.
You lose the most when you move out right?
So if we buff the units why would you move out?
Wouldn't it still be safer to stay back and play for the map split than to move out?
Or will you not be able to do that because the other races have some super strong late game tech?
If they do then why would they try to attack you instead of just turtling to that super strong late game tech?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
