EPTCommunity Feedback Update - January 13 - Page 15
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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GreenHealing
82 Posts
If siege pick up is removed, tanks damage has to be buffed considerably. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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p68
100 Posts
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JackLondon
2 Posts
"The top leagues are fairly Zerg heavy as they used to be in HotS, but GM has evened out quite a bit last 2 weeks. Zerg outnumber Protoss by 12.4% in GM, 43.3% in Masters, 66.9% in Diamond, 51.9% in Platinum, 16.4% in Gold and Protoss outnumber Zerg by 23.7% in Silver and 63.9% in Bronze. Protoss outnumbers Terrans by 8.5% in GM, Terran outnumber Protoss by 34.7% in Masters, 31.6% in Diamond, 19.5% in Platinum, and Protoss outnumber Terran by 3.2% in Gold, 23.5% in silver, and 22% in Bronze. Zergs outnumber Terrans by 22% in GM, 6.4% in Masters, 26.9% in Diamond, 27.1% in Platinum, 20.1% in Gold, 0.1% in Silver and Terran outnumber Zergs by 34.3% in Bronze." Lately I played a lot of random, so I am not really interested in flaming against any race. The stats and my game experience so far show however, that Zerg is really the strongest race by far. Unlike other players, I do not see the problem in a specific unit, but more in the general design. When I am Zerg, I simply max, waste my army, check what units are left for the opponent and build instantly the counter army (when I have the bank to do so). Terran and Protoss needs a ton of production to keep up, having higher infrastrucurecost on a much weaker economy. PvT to me looks pretty even, although there are a lot more terrans in Master and Diamand (guess because tank, liberator, marine all ins maybe?). The matchup that needs to be changed the most is PvZ in my eyes. If adepts will be nerfed, Protoss won't be better in PvZ. With photon overcharge nerf, protoss will have a harder time to hold the extremly effective ravager pushes as well. And I don't think that the morphing time change will impact that a lot. In my eyes, blizzard has two options: Either nerf zerg quite heavily (maybe a cap for larvae? always wonders why did never happens, especially with their low structure cost compared to terrans...) or, what is liked by players the most, buff the other races slightly. Protoss really needs a strong counter against air. Still. It is actually silly, that terran and zerg have bother better anti-air turrets AND both have very effective air AOE (Thor, liberators, viper, infestor...). Protoss only AOE vs air is storm. And Storm is a very poor tool against already a semi-good zerg. First of all, a storm never kills mutalisks, justs hurts them. So mutas just fly away, heal, comeback. Also, Hight templars are way too immobile to deal with mutalisks. I think when Protoss gets a unit that actually deals effectivly with anti air, PvZ will be more even. Also, with the new ravager timings, it might be very balanced indeed. In the lategame, most games are lost for toss because zerg can simply win by changing the army composition within 30 seconds from full ground to full air. Buffing anti air of toss forces zerg to have a more versitile army that they have right now. Phoenixes can counter Mutalisks quite hard with the range upgrade, but a wasted supply if a zerg goes for vipers or corrupters. When a toss scouts the spire, they are in a very weird position. In order to deal with mutalisks, they need at least 2 stargates and a lot of pheonixes. If the zerg just fakes mutas, Protoss players are basically lost... and after a big fight, when there are a lot of pheonixes left, you have a ton of units that cannot deal with the obvious switch into ultralisks. Not sure what to do about terrans actually. I think buffs will to too strong for TvP, an Adept nerf (-1 attack) sounds reasonable, but I fear also, that terran all ins with marines, tanks and liberators might become too strong. Never lost with that all in so far... Maybe blizz should really just watch the next PvTs in the pro leagues and decide. I think taking away the adept as the backbone of protoss armies would be a poor choice, cause it finally gives Protoss players a chance to play PvT without Colossi or mass stalkers. Also, Vikings deal pretty ok with warp prisms, so do marauders with adepts. So the infamous adpet drops are not really that much of a problem. I cannot remember any adept drop that had been as effective that a simple medivac drop with marines. And with the nerf of photon overcharge, terran finally will be able to drop like crazy again and we should see a ton of fun and fast pace games in PvT in the future. So I would not nerf the Adept and anger all Protoss players, if maybe the photon overcharge change already evens the balance in terms of dropping abilities. Seriously: 8 marines compared to 4 adepts in your mineral line? I think my fellow terrans agree that they all favour marines in terms of DPS : ) | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On January 16 2016 09:15 TheWinks wrote: Update: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20418543041 We just wanted to quickly update you guys on a few things before the weekend: 1. We agree with your feedback on PvT. 2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map. 3. We're currently aiming for next week to release the balance test map. 4. We would love to get everyone's help in aggressively testing these changes so that we can quickly turn around a balance update as early as the week after next. Thank you for keeping the discussions really focused on the most critical topics this week! I would like to reiterate how insane it feels to nerf Terran right now, and to specifically nerf the tank, again. What is particularly strange, is that this nerf appears to be geared towards a particular playstyle in TvT, lol. Yeah, TvT is an awesome matchup, and the increased chances of doomdrops really sucks, but my goodness, nerfing the tank again is a horrible idea because of how necessary their burst damage is in TvZ and TvP. SOLUTIONS TO DOOM DROPS? (1) Move the Hi-Sec Auto-Tracking Upgrade to the Command Center (move all three of those upgrades to the CC, really). The upgrade enhances the turret like normal, but also reduces its cost. Terrans need a lot of turrets. This may have effects on particularly turtle-like playstyles, but right now the propensity for the doom drop in TvT already promotes extreme defense. (2) Change the Sensor Tower to show a highlight of the unit, like when units are behind buildings and structures. (3) Medivac Speed Boost is disabled when a tank is in cargo. I dislike this one though, because it is so necessary in the other matchups. (4) Allow neosteel frame upgrades to outfit bunkers with an anti-ground attack turret. This, in combination with turrets, would diminish the power of doom drops in TvT. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On January 16 2016 15:23 p68 wrote: Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it. Well yeah of course its a nerf to siege tanks. You are making them more immobile again, like they originally used to be. This being said, the tank can still be emergency picked up much quicker than before. The issue however is that the medivac pick up and drop off of sieged tanks really limits their design space as well so its impossible to buff them. But honestly I dont think that tanks see play in TvP or TvZ because they can be picked up en masse and dropped off again en masse. So i really dont think it will impact TvP or TvZ that much. Its a much bigger change for the mirror match up. The real elephant in the room is the way in which protoss remains a "hit a timing before they get to their late game" race. Then Protoss finds a very strong timing and will lose that tool dropping them into a weak spot, yet again. Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point  | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3410 Posts
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wjat
385 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On January 20 2016 04:38 ZeromuS wrote: The issue however is that the medivac pick up and drop off of sieged tanks really limits their design space as well so its impossible to buff them. But honestly I dont think that tanks see play in TvP or TvZ because they can be picked up en masse and dropped off again en masse. So i really dont think it will impact TvP or TvZ that much. Its a much bigger change for the mirror match up. The existence of the ravager, adept, and disruptor all make siege tank immobility too big of a liability. You'd have to buff siege tank damage so much that they're practically unassailable to undo the damage done by the existence of those units. On January 20 2016 04:38 ZeromuS wrote: Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point It's a straight up unit power disparity problem. It's not just about the harass. I think the last sentence is a disingenuous description of lotv TvP as well. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16767 Posts
On January 15 2016 21:47 Big J wrote: No it's what everybody told them right from the beginning.
Over and over again this was reiterated. But then blizzard made a clever PR move, introduced weekly feedback threads and suddenly if you gave negative feedback you were a hater and trying to kill the game. apparently, i destroyed Act of Aggression due to my negative comments. maybe i should contact Blizzard and negotiate a salaried position in return for remaining positive about the game. the game won't be balanced for another year or so. the only way to balance it is to accept the fact that its not balanced right now. if you can't have fun playing an unbalanced game you should avoid any racially diverse RTS that has been out less than 6 months. i'm a diamond random player whose best race is zerg... i'm having fun. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On January 20 2016 04:38 ZeromuS wrote: ... Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point I watched the infamous bomber vs seed series twice and I really don't see how nerfeing the warp prism could be relevant as a first move. The adept is the core of the issue. It would be far more reasonnable imho to nerf the adept and then see how the game evolves and tune the WP accordingly. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On January 20 2016 05:38 Gwavajuice wrote: I watched the infamous bomber vs seed series twice and I really don't see how nerfeing the warp prism could be relevant as a first move. The adept is the core of the issue. It would be far more reasonnable imho to nerf the adept and then see how the game evolves and tune the WP accordingly. Correct. The Adept is too good. This is very clear. They have no vulnerabilities for (a) how early they come out, and (b) how easily the passive +DPS upgrade comes out when rushed. They are tanky, mobile, have a free special ability, are ranged, have high DPS, and are absurdly cheap. With all that being said, the WP simply removes any potential possibility of defending a well-executed attack on certain maps, where we saw in the Seed match, some maps don't even require the WP. It's a single-unit doom drop machine that provides a passive Blink upgrade to nearby ground units -- and tankivacs are might get nerfed? Smh ... | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
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