Hey everyone – we’d like to begin by saying that we agree with your feedback that much of last week’s Community Feedback Update was about balance topics that were really up in the air, and that nothing was even close to finalized. We were still in the process of gathering as much feedback as possible, and sometimes updates will be like that. We won’t pretend like we know something clearly when we don’t because the goal of the weekly updates is to be completely honest and transparent.
This week, we wanted to get your thoughts more quickly on a few topics so we decided to push out the update soon so that we can be ready to do a balance update as early as before the end of this month if necessary. Gathering KR Pro Feedback One of the things we’ve been working on more aggressively the past few months is to improve in acquiring more collective Korean pro feedback. We would like to really thank KeSPA, all the Korean pro teams, as well as the Korean players for continuing to work through creating a better process.
We felt that we’ve made a lot of progress in gathering both community feedback and foreign pro players’ feedback. Getting these more aligned allows us to move together with majority of the players’ support. However, Korean pro feedback is an area that we’ve been attempting to improve for years as there are many differing opinions among players. In addition to this, a mindset we’ve worked to overcome is players asking for changes, and then feeling unheard because those changes were not made. At this point, we’ve learned how impossible it is to do everything that a top pro player suggests because of how completely different feedback can often be. Even worse, if two top-end pro players say completely opposing things, implementing one of those changes can cause us to lose the other person forever as a source of feedback.
This is a part of gathering feedback that we definitely wanted to fix, and there have been many ideas going around in terms of how best to do this. We wanted to make you aware that just recently, we just started a new system where KeSPA pings all the pro-players and teams in Korea to consolidate the feedback, and we will be communicating directly with them. This would serve the similar purpose as our weekly updates, forums, and sc2 sites do with you guys.
Details from KR Pro Feedback Please keep in mind that pro players’ opinions can change as easily as anyone else’s depending on how their games and the meta changes, so the content here is only what we are hearing as of this week.
Much of the feedback is similar to what we’ve already been seeing and discussing. Overall, the most surprising feedback we’ve gotten from Korea is that Zerg struggles against Protoss. The least surprising feedback was that the TvP has a general vibe of being the most problematic matchup .
Concerning the Balance Test Map, there seems to be a good alignment on all fronts. The main differences from Korea was a bigger focus on potentially bringing mech play back into TvT, and for ZvZ to get mixed up a bit due to many games being Roach/Ravager only. We’re interested in reflecting these on the next Balance Test Map.
Balance Test Map and Balance Patch After considering all the feedback gathered so far, we would like to finalize and implement the changes for the next Balance Test Map as soon as possible so that we can react with a patch as early as sometime this month if necessary. We would definitely like to keep the list of changes to only the most needed ones, so let’s focus our discussions around that this week. With that in mind, let’s get into the specifics and get discussions going quickly so that we can put out a test map as soon as possible.
Balance Test Map:
Photon Overcharge We believe this is the most critical change needed as of now because Protoss is having such an easy time defending in the early/mid stages of the game due to how available Overcharge is. With this nerfed, other races’ tools to attack Protoss will be strengthened, meaning things like Adept harass or Warp Prism harass will be weaker as well since Protoss will need to invest more early game resources into defenses. Of course, more changes may be required in the long run, and we definitely want to take nerfs in smaller steps. Many of you brought this up this week as well, and we were happy to confirm once more that we are on a similar page regarding this philosophy.
As for the specifics of what to try next, we agree with your feedback in that 50 energy cost was the right move. We also agree that instead of changing up how many shots a unit takes to be killed, we can try tuning up the attack speed so that the DPS is still increased with the energy cost nerf. Viper Parasitic Bomb We would like to continue testing this nerf. Like we have been discussing together, we don’t think it’s a good thing that the current strength of this ability is preventing certain units from entering play. And even though we are getting some feedback that Zerg is the weakest race right now, we believe that’s mostly in the early/mid stages of the game, so nerfing Parasitic Bomb shouldn’t have a huge impact on Zerg’s overall strength.
Adept “-1 Damage to Light” This was a solid suggestion from the community, and because TvP is most likely the biggest issue right now, we would like to try this change. Even though this would mean that Protoss is being double nerfed against Terran (along with the Overcharge nerf), we believe this might be okay as a lot of your feedback suggests that this matchup needs the most help, and we currently agree. We also like the fact that this specific change is a smaller nerf than changing Adept flag to Armored for the reasons you have all brought up.
Spore Crawler +bio Damage There are a couple reasons why we believe strengthening Mutalisks is needed in this matchup. Adding the Ravager in LotV has given a lot more strength to Roach compositions, and adding the Parasitic Bomb ability made Mutalisks even weaker in ZvZ. Therefore, if we were to reduce +bio damage on Spore Crawlers even further and/or remove it, it could be a good move. It would bring Mutalisks to be powerful again in the mid game, and unlike the problem we had previously in HotS, there will be a clear counter to mass Mutalisks in the late game through Viper usage. The best case scenario will see a good mix of a variety of units in the early/mid game, and when Mutalisks are being used, the player massing them will have to transition out of them eventually.
General Mech Thoughts This is the area we are most unsure on right now, and we should work towards adding something on this front. If we can get a good solution we will add it along with the other proposed changes above, but if we can’t discover a suitable change in time we won’t wait to test the other changes due to this desire.
The reason why we are unsure about Mech is because we can’t quite locate the exact reason Mech struggles. Between the feedback we’ve received so far and our internal conversations, we do have some strong guesses: 1. Like we discussed in a previous update, Siege Tank pick-up in TvT has made Mech lose much of the combat advantage it had against Bio. 2. The Liberator addition in ZvT has made Ravagers a “must have” in many early game situations, making Muta/Ling compositions less common. This dynamic has favored Bio since it is much more mobile versus Ravager shots, and has the added advantage of possessing extremely potent drop harassment (which Roach/Ravager compositions are weaker versus).
If you had thoughts on either of these points or have other reasons as to what the root issue with Mech may be, please let us know. Once we find the root cause, we can start discussing potential solutions in this area. Map Diversity and Balance Now let’s move on to some philosophy as the last topic for this week. One of the main points of discussion within the community this week was how the game can never be balanced if maps are as diverse as they are now. Yet, as many of you already know, our goal for Legacy of the Void is definitely not to have every map be so similar that each matchup has a “main” strategy that’s considered the only viable option at the pro level. We’ve clearly seen that in the past, this is by far the biggest reason that StarCraft 2 can become boring to play and watch. If there is one thing we cleary have to avoid in LotV, it’s making all the maps similar again.
At the same time, please also keep in mind that we’re not trying to say that it’s ok if a race wins 80+% times against another race on a specific map or anything drastic like that. While there will definitely be a higher chance to have imbalanced maps as we push map diversity, it is a side effect we are prepared to deal with on a case-by-case basis. We also wanted to point out that slight advantages here and there towards a specific strategy or race in a matchup is definitely okay on a per-map basis. It’s not okay however, if we see the win/loss ratios diverging too much on a per-map basis. Please keep this in mind when discussing and suggesting potential changes to the current map pool. We can definitely make balance changes to maps themselves, and we can definitely also remove maps in the worst case scenarios.
We want to be extra careful in treading this line, and not be too quick to judge so that we can continue to push map diversity. In a way, this is a fundamental change in our approach to maps, so we want to avoid overreacting (as we’ve sometimes seen in the past) and talk about specific issues and/or solutions on a per map basis. For fun… To close out this week’s update, I wanted to share a funny personal story. This has nothing to do with the game's design, so please feel free to skip onto the comments if you wish…
I was watching Life playing a Best of 69 series against a completely no name Protoss player who is a mid-Master in NA. Unbelievably, Life was losing 0-10, but was barely winning in the 11th game through really amazing Zergling/Overlord drop usage. I was thinking “WT* is going on?!?! Maybe we need to react much more quickly with a patch than we thought!” …. Then I woke up this morning and was so thankful that it was only a dream.
2. The Liberator addition in ZvT has made Ravagers a “must have” in many early game situations, making Muta/Ling compositions less common. This dynamic has favored Bio since it is much more mobile versus Ravager shots, and has the added advantage of possessing extremely potent drop harassment (which Roach/Ravager compositions are weaker versus).
This is what i dont understand, because ravager timing attack basically hit much more early than there are enough liberators out to deal with them. So i dont quite understand why ravager is a "must have" while it is completely the opposite. Probably i'm wrong but here is my thought.
I don't think nerfing spores vs muta is a good way to go. Currently I am already playing more muta focused styles in ZvZ and often enough I can do critical damage to my opponent even if he builds a bunch of spores. While I do like a 80% winrate, I rather get it because I outplay my opponent rather then getting it because of a cookie cutter build.
I do like the philosophy behind the PO nerf though, and I agree that doing that might remove the necessity to nerf Adept/WP. Seems like some very solid ideas!!
I like their consideration to remove spore crawler damage to Mutalisks. Thank yeeee Blizzard. I think Mutas are strong in zvz as it is, but now spores won't be so godly versus them will be kind of nice.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
On January 14 2016 03:46 Ctone23 wrote: Adept "-1 damage to light" what does that mean? Overall really liking the proposed changes, especially the para bomb nerf!
They now do 1 less bonus damage against light, so they 3 shot pre-combat shield Marines and SCVs. If you have an attack upgrade lead then Adepts can 2 shot like they do now. Probes, Drones and Zerglings still die in 2 shots.
On January 14 2016 03:46 Ctone23 wrote: Adept "-1 damage to light" what does that mean? Overall really liking the proposed changes, especially the para bomb nerf!
It means they only deal 22 to light, so SCV's and Marines no longer gets 2 shot but 3 shot.
2. The Liberator addition in ZvT has made Ravagers a “must have” in many early game situations, making Muta/Ling compositions less common. This dynamic has favored Bio since it is much more mobile versus Ravager shots, and has the added advantage of possessing extremely potent drop harassment (which Roach/Ravager compositions are weaker versus).
This is what i dont understand, because ravager timing attack basically hit much more early than there are enough liberators out to deal with them. So i dont quite understand why ravager is a "must have" while it is completely the opposite. Probably i'm wrong but here is my thought.
Ravagers can kill liberators without risking to step in the circle. They're the easiest counter since liberators can't dodge in air-to-ground mode. They're not talking about timing attacks.
Now let’s move on to some philosophy as the last topic for this week. One of the main points of discussion within the community this week was how the game can never be balanced if maps are as diverse as they are now. Yet, as many of you already know, our goal for Legacy of the Void is definitely not to have every map be so similar that each matchup has a “main” strategy that’s considered the only viable option at the pro level.
A map pool as poor as the current one leads to the same thing. That's the reason why almost every TvZ on Prion Terraces is 3-rax reaper. Gimmicky maps don't always have a positive effect.
Adept “-1 Damage to Light” This was a solid suggestion from the community, and because TvP is most likely the biggest issue right now, we would like to try this change. Even though this would mean that Protoss is being double nerfed against Terran (along with the Overcharge nerf), we believe this might be okay as a lot of your feedback suggests that this matchup needs the most help, and we currently agree. We also like the fact that this specific change is a smaller nerf than changing Adept flag to Armored for the reasons you have all brought up.
The point is for Adepts to 3 shot instead of 2 shot SCVs and Marines (until combat shields).
It helps out TvP and minimally affects the other matchups. The number of shots to kill all other units doesn't change.
Regarding ``mech'', I guess DinoMight's thread will provide some insight: original thread.
Am I the only one that didn't quite get what they're testing with the energy change for overcharge? It's going to cost 25 more? So instead of 6 pylons, 3 will be overcharged?
On January 14 2016 03:58 Ghanburighan wrote: Love the personal story.
Regarding ``mech'', I guess DinoMight's thread will provide some insight: original thread.
Am I the only one that didn't quite get what they're testing with the energy change for overcharge? It's going to cost 25 more? So instead of 6 pylons, 3 will be overcharged?
4 instead of 8 at max energy and forcing them out will be more rewarding.
E: Regarding Korean Zergs saying they have trouble vs Protoss... maybe they should stop suiciding their lurkers :O
On January 14 2016 03:46 Ctone23 wrote: Adept "-1 damage to light" what does that mean? Overall really liking the proposed changes, especially the para bomb nerf!
They now do 1 less bonus damage against light, so they 3 shot pre-combat shield Marines and SCVs. If you have an attack upgrade lead then Adepts can 2 shot like they do now. Probes, Drones and Zerglings still die in 2 shots.
Ahh okay thanks! I feel kind of silly now, I thought it was a typo or something, but 1 less damage does the job quite well it would seem.
On January 14 2016 03:58 Ghanburighan wrote: Love the personal story.
Regarding ``mech'', I guess DinoMight's thread will provide some insight: original thread.
Am I the only one that didn't quite get what they're testing with the energy change for overcharge? It's going to cost 25 more? So instead of 6 pylons, 3 will be overcharged?
Thanks for the shout out.
David Kim if you're reading this, which you obviously do, please read my thread about mech viability ^^^
25 energy photon overcharge means you could overcharge and force a retreat, then when it expired you could overcharge again, and by the time it ended you'd have built enough energy to overcharge again. Because it required so little energy you could spam it.
With 50 energy, sure you can overcharge 4 pylons at once but if your opponent can successfully bait it and retreat, the next time he attacks you won't have any PO available.
It just makes counterplay against the ability easier.
The reason why we are unsure about Mech is because we can’t quite locate the exact reason Mech struggles.
Is he trolling? maybe just maybe it has something to do with him repeatedly nerfing mech and adding new hardcounters with each expansion. Maybe because the viper is the be-all-end-all anti-mech unit? Or tempests completely nullifiying mech?
Also liberator based mech play isn't really mech but HotS style turtle into ultimate air army into 200/200 air battle amove. Please don't make that a thing. mech should be centered around the siege tank.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
"I don't like strategy xy. please remove it from the game. race xy shouldn't have more ways to play than the one I'm most comfortable to play against"
"If you had thoughts on either of these points or have other reasons as to what the root issue with Mech may be, please let us know. Once we find the ROOT CAUSE, we can start discussing potential solutions in this area"
The root cause is simple, the Thor is terrible unit. Thors are bad and blizz should feel bad about them being in the game. They trade cost effectively only against light air units, but if the opposing player controls their air units correctly (muta spreading) or responds with obvious counter units (Lings/Bio/Immortal) the Thor player loses the game.
If they could stun ultras again, maybe they would be good. If the Thor's attacks were separated to allow 1 shotting of lings maybe they could trade at only a minor loss. Or if their attack was moved back up to 46 damage but was slower and fire 1 gun at a time instead of 2x1 they could have a harass role. Or maybe if Thor's had a taunt ability and a lot of armor. Or if Thors were smaller, cost half the supply and resources, were faster, and had greatly reduced anti ground power, and were called Goliaths.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Solid comment from the guy who is a fan of the Ultralisk w/ +2 armor, and who doesn't think it is a-move'ish at all.
/s
Maybe you could consider that mech doesn't have to be boring if tank is strong enough and you are spread over multiple bases?
@ Blizzard
Nerf siege pick up further and buff its attack speed further. SIege pick up shouldn't be used as transportation tool but rather as escape-tool/dodge skillshots.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
"I don't like strategy xy. please remove it from the game. race xy shouldn't have more ways to play than the one I'm most comfortable to play against"
I bet you were screaming for Blizzard not to nerf SH into oblivion
These changes are good, the small changes to the Adept are kinda cool for Terran I guess but for Zerg I'm more excited about Photon Overcharge not being an instant "LOL you can't attack" in the early game, speedlings may actually be able to put some counter pressure on now.
PB does indeed need a nerf, it just needs to not stack, I like that it is a way to come back into the game against Mutalisk play especially in ZvZ but it is retarded unforgiving, no human can split like that there isn't even a really clear indicator of what unit is bombed.
Surprised no Liberator nerf/Cyclone buff, the Liberator is totally overwhelming (not quite "OP" but it does every job better then it's counter parts i.e. kills workers faster then a Banshee and holds ground better then a tank while the Cyclone remains merely retarded and unviable in every match except what, TvT? I never see it in ZvT.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
but not every mech player wants to turtle but has to because of the counters and state of there units. if cyclones werent so bad terrans could go hellion cyclone mixed with mines and libs and allow them to attack. I believe there are ways to make mech viable and not turtle and i thinks its working on the cyclone not the other units.
Edit: obviously there are going to be players like avilo who turtle its just how it is he does it with every race but not everyone wants to be pigeonholed into playing bio every game. I like bio but it gets boring fast.
Edit 2: to be clear I dont think pure mech should be viable its like only going sky terran or only making barracks units(unless medics were in the game then the game would be nice but different story) I would like to not have to go MMM every game that all.
This looks like it could be ok. The photon overcharge change was a given, and adept change is small enough that it may not break everything even in addition with the other nerf. I wish they wouldn't have done both at the same time of course, but hey, it's terran we're talking about. My main worry is of course what happens later if terran becomes broken, because it's obvious we would have a very different reaction, but I don't know that terran becomes broken after this, so I can get behind it.
First thing that should happen: everyone going marine tank in TvP, which leads to a comeback of blink play. Then we go from there.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
"I don't like strategy xy. please remove it from the game. race xy shouldn't have more ways to play than the one I'm most comfortable to play against"
I bet you were screaming for Blizzard not to nerf SH into oblivion
who wasnt mech and bio terrans, protoss, and zergs them selves hated playing vs them, and sh games were the worst games to watch. the unit should have never been introduced
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
"I don't like strategy xy. please remove it from the game. race xy shouldn't have more ways to play than the one I'm most comfortable to play against"
I bet you were screaming for Blizzard not to nerf SH into oblivion
who wasnt mech and bio terrans, protoss, and zergs them selves hated playing vs them, and sh games were the worst games to watch. the unit should have never been introduced
Well, many think the same about mech. It´s all about what your opinion is.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
"I don't like strategy xy. please remove it from the game. race xy shouldn't have more ways to play than the one I'm most comfortable to play against"
I bet you were screaming for Blizzard not to nerf SH into oblivion
I didn't scream for it because it was a problem when they delayed tournaments but I was really sad when they got nerfed. I think I never had more fun playing sc2 then during the swarmhost era, nothing felt as intense and strategic as a 1 hour swarmhost game.
its unfair that terran always should be able to play pure mech. If that is possible I also want it to be possible to play purely robotic or psionic for protoss.
I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
First thing that should happen: everyone going marine tank in TvP, which leads to a comeback of blink play. Then we go from there.
why would you go blinkstalkers against marine tank? stalkers are the only units protoss has that don't hardcounter tanks (well, and sentries I guess)
Blink can abuse the immobility of Tanks.
But then again, we live in an age where Tanks can fly....
So yeah.
If you force medivacs you force "not liberators".
Besides, blink stalkers DO well against marine tank. Pilipili got in a very clear winning position from those openings against ByuN, before he threw it.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
there are a lot of people who play solely mech and chose terran because they liked mech play. What do you think they will if mech remains unviable? raceswitch? learn bio? no, they will just quit. mech and bio play is like two different races. removing one of them is like removing protoss or zerg..
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
there are a lot of people who play solely mech and chose terran because they liked mech play. What do you think they will if mech remains unviable? raceswitch? learn bio? no, they will just quit. mech and bio play is like two different races. removing one of them is like removing protoss or zerg..
I really like robotic protoss units and would like to win games by only making robotic units but i can't, and it's frustrating that David Kim will not address this.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Solid comment from the guy who is a fan of the Ultralisk w/ +2 armor, and who doesn't think it is a-move'ish at all.
/s
Maybe you could consider that mech doesn't have to be boring if tank is strong enough and you are spread over multiple bases?.
But he is right. Blizzard is likely to mess up big time and let the matchup broken for several months before they make mech viable (or likely revert to current state).
"Guys, our data shows that a worker has an average life expectancy of 4:06 mins in ZvZ. Anything over 2:30 is inacceptible. Time to buff something that fucks up workers!"
On January 14 2016 05:02 Big J wrote: "Guys, our data shows that a worker has an average life expectancy of 4:06 mins in ZvZ. Anything over 2:30 is inacceptible. Time to buff something that fucks up workers!"
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
there are a lot of people who play solely mech and chose terran because they liked mech play. What do you think they will if mech remains unviable? raceswitch? learn bio? no, they will just quit. mech and bio play is like two different races. removing one of them is like removing protoss or zerg..
Mech has never been that dominant in SC2, and if people are only able to play one composition they have issues in their play. It's as bad as the people complaining that Ling/Bling Muta should be the only viable Zerg comp ever.
I'm not asking mech units to be bad, I'm asking that the playstyle of "pure turtly mech" should be avoided just like "pure turtly deathball protoss" should be avoided, and all similar playstyles.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Coming from the guy who made a guide on TL on how to turtle most efficiently to ultras... The real reason you don't want mech to be viable is probably because you fear that your strategy might have a counter and you don't have the ultimate lategame composition anymore.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Coming from the guy who made a guide on TL on how to turtle most efficiently to ultras... The real reason you don't want mech to be viable is probably because you fear that your strategy might have a counter and you don't have the ultimate lategame composition anymore.
Maybe dial your attitude back a few notches. It´s not like terrans have not become better and better at dealing with zerg late game. Now terrans just have to make other units to counter zerg T3.
Completely removing the spores damage to bio is overdoing it. In muta vs roach you get some mutas then transition, it's not even worth getting a viper to counter them. No one goes large numbers of mutas against roach. A potential roach timing yeah, I suppose it's strengthened now by ravagers. Nerfing spores to hell is not going to balance out that problem, the problem there is reaching mutas. If that is your problem than fix something else like increase the ravager morph time. I don't see the point of nerfing the spore, the only thing that will change is 7 mutas forcing 7 spores . Roach ravager doesn't even seem that strong in zvz to me, you go into hydra / lurkers and they've put a ton of money into ravagers, it's not even good.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Coming from the guy who made a guide on TL on how to turtle most efficiently to ultras... The real reason you don't want mech to be viable is probably because you fear that your strategy might have a counter and you don't have the ultimate lategame composition anymore.
- Marines - Widow Mines - Thors - Liberators - Battlecruisers - Turrets (these are not units but still)
Zerg units that are hard-counters to liberators:
- Viper (parasitic bomb) - Corruptors
Erase the valkyriesque AA attack on the liberator and mutas should counter it effectively, and Terran should rely on marines and thors to defend them from mutalisk flocks. With this nerf, tvz will go back to his former glory.
Nerfing one part of PO and buffing another is not, "a nerf". Its a buff in some situation and a nerf in others. Which means its a change or a patch. Most definitely not a nerf, you are not on the same page as everyone else. Because everyone else wants a PO nerf, not a PO change.
On January 14 2016 05:23 Ctone23 wrote: Parabomb nerf inherently strengthens mech does it not? Speed banshee's, etc
Sky mech is not real mech.
Appearantly.
Unless Terrans can win with 80% Tanks they will continue to complain...
Vultures and Goliaths are ok too. So are mass science vessels and wraiths and Valkeries and Dropships and BCs. Just specifically SC2 units are not fine. I mean, it makes sense if you think about it. It's not the same as in BW so it shouldn't be called the same. Let's call SC2 Mech from now on "real Mech" and BW Mech shall keep its name "Mech".
On January 14 2016 03:46 blade55555 wrote: Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Ignore mech or turtle mech? You are suggesting that they're the same thing and they're not. Mech does not mean turtle until you get a 200/200 sky Terran army. Mech was forced to turtle because of its lack of aggressive capacity, which is a design issue. Moving out before 200/200 was practically suicide.
The difference between mech and bio, regarding pace, should be steadily increasing aggression vs constant hyper-aggression, not turtling vs not-turtling. LOTV economy prohibits turtling on 3 base anyway.
To Blizzard, I'd say that tankivacs is actually an item that helps mech be aggressive. The issue is this play-style better synergies best with bio, because medivacs.
Issue 1: Hellbats
Although hellbats can be healed by medivacs, hellbats aren't in a very good spot in LOTV, with the brief exception of early TvZ timing pushes. They suck at dodging corrosive bile (combination of their movement speed and their limited attack range) and disruptor shots. Marines outclass them not only in this respect, but also in DPS and the ability to shoot air units. Hellbats a great unit for boosting medivacs and dropping them on top of the enemy army, but taking up four cargo slots really killed this as a general tactic. Thus, one issue I propose with mech is the current status of hellbats. There are many ways to consider improving them, including making transformation time faster to improve mobility, reverting the cargo space nerf, or give them a "super waddle" short burst of speed to help close distance.
Issue 2: Anti-air
I believe Blizzard still plans on addressing this by buffing the Thor, but they haven't talked about it in a while. If it goes through, it's a good ground-to-air solution for mech.
Issue 3: Cyclone
Along with the tankivac, this is a unit that has aggression-potential. Problem is, it's fragile, expensive, and scales terribly. Its use in the current meta is restricted to building one or two in the early game to help defend, and in more rare cases, participate in early pressure. But past the early game, the unit effectively disappears from the battlefield. I personally don't know what could be done with the unit, given its design makes balance rest on a very fine line between underused and overpowered. Whatever happens, it would be great for this unit to scale better and allow mech to be aggressive without having to wait till 200/00.
On January 14 2016 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote: Nerfing one part of PO and buffing another is not, "a nerf". Its a buff in some situation and a nerf in others. Which means its a change or a patch. Most definitely not a nerf, you are not on the same page as everyone else. Because everyone else wants a PO nerf, not a PO change.
No. People are calling for it to be "less spammable."
That's exactly what they've done with this PO change.
In effect, it will be a nerf. Because it will force Protoss to make more defensive units rather than relying on PO.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
On January 14 2016 03:46 blade55555 wrote: Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Ignore mech or turtle mech? You are suggesting that they're the same thing and they're not. Mech does not mean turtle until you get a 200/200 sky Terran army. Mech was forced to turtle because of its lack of aggressive capacity, which is a design issue. Moving out before 200/200 was practically suicide.
The difference between mech and bio, regarding pace, should be steadily increasing aggression vs constant hyper-aggression, not turtling vs not-turtling. LOTV economy prohibits turtling on 3 base anyway.
To Blizzard, I'd say that tankivacs is actually an item that helps mech be aggressive. The issue is this play-style better synergies best with bio, because medivacs.
Issue 1: Hellbats
Although hellbats can be healed by medivacs, hellbats aren't in a very good spot in LOTV, with the brief exception of early TvZ timing pushes. They suck at dodging corrosive bile (combination of their movement speed and their limited attack range) and disruptor shots. Marines outclass them not only in this respect, but also in DPS and the ability to shoot air units. Hellbats a great unit for boosting medivacs and dropping them on top of the enemy army, but taking up four cargo slots really killed this as a general tactic. Thus, one issue I propose with mech is the current status of hellbats. There are many ways to consider improving them, including making transformation time faster to improve mobility, reverting the cargo space nerf, or give them a "super waddle" short burst of speed to help close distance.
Issue 2: Anti-air
I believe Blizzard still plans on addressing this by buffing the Thor, but they haven't talked about it in a while. If it goes through, it's a good ground-to-air solution for mech.
Issue 3: Cyclone
Along with the tankivac, this is a unit that has aggression-potential. Problem is, it's fragile, expensive, and scales terribly. Its use in the current meta is restricted to building one or two in the early game to help defend, and in more rare cases, participate in early pressure. But past the early game, the unit effectively disappears from the battlefield. I personally don't know what could be done with the unit, given its design makes balance rest on a very fine line between underused and overpowered. Whatever happens, it would be great for this unit to scale better and allow mech to be aggressive without having to wait till 200/00.
This was a good update. I like the little add on of the dream as the last part. Protoss is haunting David Kim in his dreams
I think the problem with Mech viability is the new economy and the dependency of Mule's. We keep mentioning how much variance we have in the map pool, if Mech does not show up as a viable build in either matchup on any of these crazy different maps, then something is wrong with the core of Mech.
I think the two most important things holding Mech back that I can think of now is a strong opener + the need for Map control to get expansions up, which is much more important in LotV.
As for Protoss after this update, I think we will struggle vs Terran on the ladder. In tournaments we can still P R O T O S S our way through brackets by bringing the cheese. And we have the advantage of having more maps in the pool that favour us. But for the ladder, we don't have the advantage of mind games AND we need to veto our good PvT maps away, because it's a nightmare in PvZ. More games will go the distance and Terran is favoured once they get rolling with 75 starting energy Ghosts and range upgraded Liberators.
PvZ I'm mostly scared of the early game, with stronger Overlord drops due to the Overcharge nerf and it might make Protoss play way too safe and that will make greedy Zergs stronger.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Solid comment from the guy who is a fan of the Ultralisk w/ +2 armor, and who doesn't think it is a-move'ish at all.
/s
Maybe you could consider that mech doesn't have to be boring if tank is strong enough and you are spread over multiple bases?
@ Blizzard
Nerf siege pick up further and buff its attack speed further. SIege pick up shouldn't be used as transportation tool but rather as escape-tool/dodge skillshots.
Maybe because Terrans can counter Ultralisks with ghosts? Sorry you can't make marine/marauder all game and have to actually transtion? Terran's have shown they can do it (well korean terran's at least, maybe you should try it first?).
For the mech part, I just don't see with the way sc2 is designed as mech ever being viable without it being a turtley style. They would have to radically change a lot of things, not just on Terran side either for it to be viable while not making it a turtley style. If there is a way to do this, fine let's do it. Otherwise let's not have it at all because turtle mech is the most boring thing ever, just as bad as turtle swarmhost/blcorrinf/etc/etc. Boring turtle styles should not be in this game.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
great analysis! do you think the suggested thor buff would be enough for mech AA?
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
just nerf liberators/raven/whatever and turtling into the ultimate air army won't be viable anymore
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
The issue with Mech is... that there never was any Mech in SC2. HotS "Mech" was nothing more then a "mechanical type unit composition" with all the Vikings and Ravens flying around. To know what Mech as a playstyle is, this thread has to be read - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/360325-in-defence-of-mech
The reason why SC2 "mech" was a turtle kind was simple - Tanks were not immobile enough but also not strong enough (compared to other units like Immortal and all other Tank soft and hard counters) to move out on the map. The overkill protection means Tanks need to be balanced around lower burst damage output. Overkill protection means that each and every extra Tank adds as much damage/dps as the first one.
With overkill enabled, Tanks could be stronger (again, relative to other units), but their mobility has to be reduced (Tankivac has to go).
Weak tank and positional play is the reason why "mech" play in SC2 is the turtle kind - if you don't wait till highest supply possible, you will die once you move out because you sacrificed a number of bases (because of immobile army) and your main force is not enough to push all the way across the map and trade with enemy army head on.
Also, Blinding Cloud is a hard counter to heavy Tank play. Giving Terran a counter to Viper (like a big nerf to PB so Vikings can counter them) is not the way to go, as it makes the game even more volatile, unforgiving and based on hard counters, which is not strategical at all. Instead, the Blinding Cloud should be looked at. Dark Swarm was a better design in every way, as it offered more counter play (splash damage, spells) beside sniping the Defiler before it casts it or retreating your forces. I'm not saying that Dark Swarm needs to come back, but that Blinding Cloud maybe could use a redesign or replacing.
If, however, Mech means to anyone just units with a mechanical tag, then please state that, and buff whatever you want. Just don't call it Mech.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I can understand it. With swarmhosts the game dragged on for a while. For zergs it's better when they just instantly win once they have a certain composition.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I can understand it. With swarmhosts the game dragged on for a while. For zergs it's better when they just instantly win once they have a certain composition.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I can understand it. With swarmhosts the game dragged on for a while. For zergs it's better when they just instantly win once they have a certain composition.
hmmyeah, it's pretty easy to win with that composition when so many terrans want to play with the same composition the entire game. Luckily for zergs the terrans who transition to ghosts, as you pointed out, cant micro them and just get them fungaled and killed by 3 banes
Maybe because Terrans can counter Ultralisks with ghosts?
1 fungal or 3 baneling hits and all your ghost die and your 120 supply bio army dies to 60 supply of ultras.
No fungals or bane hits and your ultras all die and terran loses nothing.
terran loses nothing? snipe has a delay when firing, to oneshot an ultra you need three ghosts. One full energy ghost does that too but it needs so long for it that your ultras will kill your bio army before. Unless you want to say terran should build 45 ghosts to counter 15 ultras it's not true that terran will lose nothing.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I know very well where he is comming from. I've been hanging out on these forums from the very beginning. Being "decent" doesn't give you a free ticket to spam your own bullshit expecting everyone to lay down to your knees just because...
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
They'll just have to buff the other race's capabilities of dealing with turtle mech by deterring death ball fights (see viper's blinding cloud, parasitic bomb, they're actually decent abilities for this purpose). In brood war for example, a meching terran can't sit in his base forever because the zerg/protoss will take the entire map. It'll become a game of resources that can not be won by the terran.
The issue in Sc2 is that you can't have such insane economies as in brood war ("3 base limit for minerals at least") and there's no real "buying time" abilities like dark swarm. Furthermore, a lot of workers are wasted through there being 2 geysers per base instead of 1 necessitating double the amount of workers on gas for the same income. This just further contributes to the inflated Sc2 supply (hydras 2 supply, roaches 2 supply,...).
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I can understand it. With swarmhosts the game dragged on for a while. For zergs it's better when they just instantly win once they have a certain composition.
hmmyeah, it's pretty easy to win with that composition when so many terrans want to play with the same composition the entire game. Luckily for zergs the terrans who transition to ghosts, as you pointed out, cant micro them and just get them fungaled and killed by 3 banes
it's not only that terran can't micro but the threat of losing the game instantly because of 1 mistake makes terran play very passive because moving out is extremely risky because you can be caught offguard easily. This leads to zerg having mapcontrol and the superior economy. then they can just spam units and win. There is a reason every terran tries to hit a pre-hive timing to kill the zerg before he gets to ultras.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I know very well where he is comming from. I've been hanging out on these forums from the very beginning. Being "decent" doesn't give you a free ticket to spam your own bullshit expecting everyone to lay down to your knees just because...
Ah yeah sure, it just seemed pretty dumb to claim he was a big defender of bullshit or insta win styles if you remotely knew him, so I assumed you didnt
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
On January 14 2016 06:05 DinoMight wrote: Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game..
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
@ Blizzard
Nerf siege pick up further and buff its attack speed further. SIege pick up shouldn't be used as transportation tool but rather as escape-tool/dodge skillshots.
Agree with this.
Solid update, apart from the mech comments that show how little thought and attention it gets from DK. BRB in 8 months when they locate the areas. ROTFL
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
They'll just have to buff the other race's capabilities of dealing with turtle mech by deterring death ball fights (see viper's blinding cloud, parasitic bomb, they're actually decent abilities for this purpose). In brood war for example, a meching terran can't sit in his base forever because the zerg/protoss will take the entire map. It'll become a game of resources that can not be won by the terran.
The issue in Sc2 is that you can't have such insane economies as in brood war ("3 base limit for minerals at least") and there's no real "buying time" abilities like dark swarm. Furthermore, a lot of workers are wasted through there being 2 geysers per base instead of 1 necessitating double the amount of workers on gas for the same income. This just further contributes to the inflated Sc2 supply (hydras 2 supply, roaches 2 supply,...).
Yes and that has been said a thousand times about the economy. You can't make Mech like Broodwar based on superstrong siege lines because of the economy. You can't make Mech that superdeathball, because unlike in Broodwar you cannot force a massive economical advantage that allows you to send wave after wave into the meatgrinder or forces the terran to move out if he doesn't want to play 3 base vs 9 base. What you can do is create the good old deathball Mech of SC2 in which both players turtle to ultimate compositions. What you may be able to do if you go really experimental with the patches is buff the shit out of units like hellions and hellbats and cyclones and maybe apply the one or other nerf to lategame Mech units and thereby make Mech a bio 2.0 style.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
They'll just have to buff the other race's capabilities of dealing with turtle mech by deterring death ball fights (see viper's blinding cloud, parasitic bomb, they're actually decent abilities for this purpose). In brood war for example, a meching terran can't sit in his base forever because the zerg/protoss will take the entire map. It'll become a game of resources that can not be won by the terran.
The issue in Sc2 is that you can't have such insane economies as in brood war ("3 base limit for minerals at least") and there's no real "buying time" abilities like dark swarm. Furthermore, a lot of workers are wasted through there being 2 geysers per base instead of 1 necessitating double the amount of workers on gas for the same income. This just further contributes to the inflated Sc2 supply (hydras 2 supply, roaches 2 supply,...).
To be honest, this is bullshit, in HotS you needed 4 bases of gas to be able to actually turtle to a win, given that in LotV theres 60% of the resources in eah base, you will need 7.5 (basically 8) bases to be able to reach the same amount of resuserces, or even if not 8, 7 or 6 bases minumum.
LotV already gives a very big deterrent to turtling eco wise, what Dino tought as what will make mech unplayable is in my opinion what gives mechs the best chances.
Not to mention that there is shit tons of counters to mech in TvZ (where the most turtling came from) as in TvT most mech games where pretty agressive (since being a mirror the player with the better economy could get the air army faster wich forced the mech players to be aggressive)
If the economy is such that makes it hard to turtle you can buff the agressive option without it buffing the turtling, mech isn't about turtling, the best mech players actually played a mix of both, players like Gumiho, Bbyong, Flash, Innovation, ForGG and even non-mechers that meched every once in a while like MMA and Maru.
As for the people saying that "real mech" is pure factory mech, please at least learn how mech is before posting, never in SC history (BW, WoL, HotS) has mech ever been pure factory units, the reason why the people that play mech say that is better to buff factory units instead of relying in air units, is that mass air 200/200 air armies are lame as shit.
Mech should be factory units as core (tanks,hellbats,thors,etc) and air (banshee,viking,liberator) and bio (if you think mech players never build bio units you have never player mech vs P, or have no idea how mech early game works ) as support.
I agree that terrans are struggling vs adept drops in pvt. But why nerf the adept instead of the warp prism? This way you are taking out our only usefull core gateway unit vs terran, and with the collosus nerf I think it will be really hard to win against terran, since any terran who can split decently can dodge disruptors without issue.
They should just increase the warp prism build time and warp in time for units. Then the adept drops are a thing of the past.
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport? I'm not convinced cyclones are useless either, I don't think you people know what you're doing with them.
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I know very well where he is comming from. I've been hanging out on these forums from the very beginning. Being "decent" doesn't give you a free ticket to spam your own bullshit expecting everyone to lay down to your knees just because...
Ah yeah sure, it just seemed pretty dumb to claim he was a big defender of bullshit or insta win styles if you remotely knew him, so I assumed you didnt
quitting because of SHs is a pretty clear indicator for being a defender of insta win styles because that was far from being an insta win style. but now with buffed ultras and parasitic bomb he's of course back.
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran.
Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate?
Make banglings better and make thors a smaller mobile unit... Omg kinda like a golieth! Increasing hellbat speed might be a possibility to. Medivac hellbat would be stronger and tanks would have the pickup support
Seriously adding some relative mobility to mech army would make a huge difference. Golieths wouldnt be direct counter to rouch ravengers but would be able to split and suplement tanks with what they need against muta and be far more effective against rouch (though not to effective). With thors u really are going to have to make liberators and that is part of what disincentivises the comp. design wise you dont want two splash anti air units that are viable. Makes muta so poor.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
Holy fuck people need to fucking get this straight right now because i hear this argument and see it everywhere.
"ZOMG IF YOU BUFF NERF THIS THAT IT'LL CREATE TURTLE MECH." WHAT THE HELL?!
You realize the game by default anyone in the game any race can turtle with any style. Regardless of whether it's buffed or nerfed any player can decide to turtle hardcore. Buffing mech so that you can make anti-air units that shoot up that allow you to go attack and trade units with your opponent doesn't change literally anything about turtle style.
If someone is going to turtle, they are going to do it regardless. In LOTV if you turtle, you're doing it across 5-6 bases which is even more difficult than in HOTS.
It's not justification to keep mech terrible and mech anti-air terrible claiming "but it'll make turtle mech better!" Not really. Turtle mech won't fucking change because it's the only default way to play the game regardless. But it'll be so much healthier for the game if mech is given ways to attack across the map and promote action and promote your opponent building GROUND UNITS to trade with you rather than him just sitting there and spamming 10+ tempest/carrier/liberator/broodlord.
Please, everyone fucking stop this argument "omfg if we buff mech it'll make turtle mech godly!" Turtle mech already is the only way to play the fucking game lol.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I know very well where he is comming from. I've been hanging out on these forums from the very beginning. Being "decent" doesn't give you a free ticket to spam your own bullshit expecting everyone to lay down to your knees just because...
Ah yeah sure, it just seemed pretty dumb to claim he was a big defender of bullshit or insta win styles if you remotely knew him, so I assumed you didnt
quitting because of SHs is a pretty clear indicator for being a defender of insta win styles because that was far from being an insta win style. but now with buffed ultras and parasitic bomb he's of course back.
I'm guessing you missed the part where I said bullshit OR insta win styles
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran.
Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate?
Quit being a dick. First of all I've said that "mech is said not to be viable" referencing other people on this forum. Second, I have a lot of experience playing AND watching StarCraft 2 to comfortably stand by that statement.
Third, it fucking makes sense doesn't it? A unit that can make tanks not shoot and kills Vikings in an AoE?
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran.
Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate?
Quit being a dick. First of all I've said that "mech is said not to be viable" referencing other people on this forum. Second, I have a lot of experience playing AND watching StarCraft 2 to comfortably stand by that statement.
Third, it fucking makes sense doesn't it? A unit that can make tanks not shoot and kills Vikings in an AoE?
Hey, brilliant one. At the end of HOTS Mech was very strong in TvZ, and blinding cloud was around then, wasn't it? Well that hasn't changed. Now the starport has been very buffed, and we have parasitic bomb... parasitic bomb is not a magic solution, it hits one unit, you spread the unit out... you have Thors hitting the vipers, you have liberators and vikings. Last time I checked they were buffing Thors AA damage to ignore armored too. Your banshees are fast, you dont even need large numbers... Go ahead and add ghosts. Actually parasitic bomb in TvZ mech is not nearly as strong as I hear everyone saying it is. Let's go over the things Mech has added in LOTV: -cyclones (none of you know how to use them yet) -liberators -banshee speed -BC can warp anywhere Hmmm Actually now the maps squeeze together more quickly it helps mech believe it or not, I hear everyone saying the econ change hurt mech but no, it didn't, you want the map to mine out as a mech player. Good time for mech.
On January 14 2016 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote: Nerfing one part of PO and buffing another is not, "a nerf". Its a buff in some situation and a nerf in others. Which means its a change or a patch. Most definitely not a nerf, you are not on the same page as everyone else. Because everyone else wants a PO nerf, not a PO change.
When you use two pylon overcharges at 25, you have the ability to deal more damage than when you use one pylon overcharge at 50. When you bait two pylon overcharges at 25, you're able to produce a lot less results for it than when you bait a pylon overcharge at 50, because the next overcharge will be ready in 50 energy, not in 25.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Solid comment from the guy who is a fan of the Ultralisk w/ +2 armor, and who doesn't think it is a-move'ish at all.
/s
Maybe you could consider that mech doesn't have to be boring if tank is strong enough and you are spread over multiple bases?.
But he is right. Blizzard is likely to mess up big time and let the matchup broken for several months before they make mech viable (or likely revert to current state).
With the new economy + buff to harass options, the probability is much less. I think the fear of lack of diversity is much more significant. Further, with a counter to mass terran air, sky terran is unlikely to be as strong vs Zerg as it previously was.
This is an example of what mech could be when the core army consists of strong positional units and yoo need to defend multiple locations at once + opponent has tools to army trade against you.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
Holy fuck people need to fucking get this straight right now because i hear this argument and see it everywhere.
"ZOMG IF YOU BUFF NERF THIS THAT IT'LL CREATE TURTLE MECH." WHAT THE HELL?!
You realize the game by default anyone in the game any race can turtle with any style. Regardless of whether it's buffed or nerfed any player can decide to turtle hardcore. Buffing mech so that you can make anti-air units that shoot up that allow you to go attack and trade units with your opponent doesn't change literally anything about turtle style.
If someone is going to turtle, they are going to do it regardless. In LOTV if you turtle, you're doing it across 5-6 bases which is even more difficult than in HOTS.
It's not justification to keep mech terrible and mech anti-air terrible claiming "but it'll make turtle mech better!" Not really. Turtle mech won't fucking change because it's the only default way to play the game regardless. But it'll be so much healthier for the game if mech is given ways to attack across the map and promote action and promote your opponent building GROUND UNITS to trade with you rather than him just sitting there and spamming 10+ tempest/carrier/liberator/broodlord.
Please, everyone fucking stop this argument "omfg if we buff mech it'll make turtle mech godly!" Turtle mech already is the only way to play the fucking game lol.
I actually really agree with this.
If you want to turtle you will turtle regardless.
Just look at this stuff (made by TLs very own strategy team)
What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
That is really the problem here. Always has been. Blizzard has been unable to see the problems for themselves, and thus the fix is suggested months in advance by the community, but Blizzard doesn't know who to listen to and it takes them forever to figure things out for themselves.
This game needs a new design team so bad that actually understands the game they are working on. The squeaky wheel (loud whiners) seem to always get the grease, at the expense of real imbalance issues.
Protoss has a 41% winrate versus Zerg right now, confirmed by both the current season GSL winrates and Aligulac. That is a real problem, it is worst win rate Protoss or Zerg has ever had in that match up. But no changes? Just some vague talk about maps?
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
there is a way to ask for feedback without saying: "I have no idea what to do please give me some sugestions"
I'm happy to see a lot of interesting discussions about mech! Some petty arguing as well, but it's not too bad! Despite composing the majority of the Terran ground arsenal, mech/factory units are kind of in a niche spot, for the most part. Limited gameplay synergy and zero upgrade synergy with bio just makes it sting all-the-more.
Still see some of the same tired old arguments that don't appreciate the asymmetry of the game or design differences between the races (e.g. "BUT PROTOSS PLAYERS DON'T WHINE THAT THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO ROBO ONLY!"). No matter how many times these get addressed, they stick around. If you're anti-mech, at least put up a good reason to be.
I wanted to add that I don't think players are expecting for mech to be viable in all match-ups. One person commented "what if Muta/Ling/Baneling players demanded that?" (not that anyone was even making that demand...) Well, I'm glad they brought that composition up, because the difference is that mech doesn't have any viable matchups at the moment. Nothing, nada, zero. Slight difference, I know.
I want to reiterate that if Blizzard ends up deciding that mech play has no place in SC2, I hope they consider redistributing the upgrades while keeping it a total of five. I don't understand why having upgrade synergy between factory and starport is helpful right now. It'd be better to have one upgrade shared between factory/bio (for a total of three ground upgrades, two air upgrades), as it would encourage trickling in more factory units to form biomech in the mid/late game.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
Holy fuck people need to fucking get this straight right now because i hear this argument and see it everywhere.
"ZOMG IF YOU BUFF NERF THIS THAT IT'LL CREATE TURTLE MECH." WHAT THE HELL?!
You realize the game by default anyone in the game any race can turtle with any style. Regardless of whether it's buffed or nerfed any player can decide to turtle hardcore. Buffing mech so that you can make anti-air units that shoot up that allow you to go attack and trade units with your opponent doesn't change literally anything about turtle style.
If someone is going to turtle, they are going to do it regardless. In LOTV if you turtle, you're doing it across 5-6 bases which is even more difficult than in HOTS.
It's not justification to keep mech terrible and mech anti-air terrible claiming "but it'll make turtle mech better!" Not really. Turtle mech won't fucking change because it's the only default way to play the game regardless. But it'll be so much healthier for the game if mech is given ways to attack across the map and promote action and promote your opponent building GROUND UNITS to trade with you rather than him just sitting there and spamming 10+ tempest/carrier/liberator/broodlord.
Please, everyone fucking stop this argument "omfg if we buff mech it'll make turtle mech godly!" Turtle mech already is the only way to play the fucking game lol.
nope, players play what's good and viable. if turtle mech is shit noone will play it. if turtlemech is the best way to play we will se it a lot like at the end lf HotS.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
there is a way to ask for feedback without saying: "I have no idea what to do please give me some sugestions"
They know what they would do (and should do): not implement a stronger mech style. Given that this answer won't satisfy The Community, they're asking what would. Makes perfect sense to me.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. It was comical to watch, they don't know what they are doing, literally.
Regarding mech, I really think besides the tank overkillprevention / weakness of tanks in low numbers and the missing anti air of mech, another thing which could change mech to be more interesting and viable is to look at the raven. Yes i know it is not a mech unit, but this unit caused a lot of the problems with turtling mech.
For me the raven is the supposed to be the mech support unit.
The spells the raven has right now are all designed mainly for defensive and reactive usage, which is in my eyes a big part of the the turtle phenomen.
1. PDD is only useful if the enemy engages exactly where you place it, he can easily chose another location, it is very hard to place pdds well offensively bc the enemy can just retreat, this spell helps only if your army is actually around. (this spell got nerfed btw)
2. Basically the same applies to the seeker: the enemy can always run away. They are basically space control spells and there is very low offensive potential with this spell. It is most useful in huge fights where the enemy cannot retreat without huge losses. Thus mech cant split up itself, this means the seeker is only useful around your siegeline.
3. Auto turret got changed a bit, but its design is also still pretty useless in aggressive styles (in engagements overall) except in early game. It is also very hard to position Autoturrets in offensive fights without losing the ravens and can only be placed on literally free space (building collision)
If you compare those spells to spells like abduct, parasitic bomb, fungal, psi storm, emp,feedback, etc - you see that the raven has very little offensive potential. That together with the whole mech army being very passively causes even more turtle play in my eyes. I think if blizzard would try to redesign at least one spell of the raven towards a spell which could be used more aggressively, and more in symbiois with small mech armies, it would be very beneficial for mech.
I do not know how it could be done, but i think terran has overall very weak spellcasters for attacking, even the ghost is mainly for zoning and built as a reaction. I would like a spell like Irradiate or a spell which somehow buffs the speed of mech units a bit, or hell even repair it. Or just redesign pdd or seeker so it could actually help the attacking mech rather than the turtling mech.
I once had the idea that pdd would be a spell which is not casted on ground but on a unit. This unit would then drag all the projectiles in range towards itself and suffer the damage of them. Compared to the pdd now this would be a way more attractive spell for an aggressive terran than just a sitting pdd over your army. I even prefered the old seeker which was not dodgeable that easy but it still was dodgeable and it did almost always at least some damage.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already know what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. They don't know what they are doing, literally.
So you would speak out against people who would be annoyed if Blizzard didn't ask for The Community's advice?
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already know what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. They don't know what they are doing, literally.
So you would speak out against people who would be annoyed if Blizzard didn't ask for The Community's advice?
I would not speak out against those people. Blizzard should know what they are doing and what the game needs. The problem is, they don't. You can give ideas to Blizzard without them asking, that is okay.
The proof is always in the pudding whether it comes to a build for ladder, designing a game or getting a girl to marry you. If it works, it works, and everyone knows it. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Everybody knows that too.
Blizzard's pudding is terrible despite all the people who tell us otherwise and try to sugar coat it. Blizzard plays politics to defend themselves rather than actually do their job.
We've suffered from terrible game design decisions and seemingly random ideas being thrown at the game because they don't know what they are doing and don't know what the game needs. Whoever let the Warhound leave a designer's head should have been fired. The fact it actually made it to the beta, and they wasted their time and money on it is a sign of failure at multiple levels. They spent months of time, valuable beta test time, trying to balance something that had no right to be in the game.
On January 14 2016 06:46 Clonester wrote: Double nerf for Protoss.... the terran dream and needed. At least in the early stage.
but will we see a 35% PvZ soon?
Well, you can kiss goodbye the 50/50 win rate for PvT too. Adepts were buoying a weak Protoss.
The adept and PO are too much of a crutch for bad design. On the bright side, I think it's a necessary change in the short term to help amplify other issues in the match up, which can be changed as well. The game will be better for it in the end.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already know what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. They don't know what they are doing, literally.
So you would speak out against people who would be annoyed if Blizzard didn't ask for The Community's advice?
I would not speak out against those people. Blizzard should know what they are doing and what the game needs. The problem is, they don't. You can give ideas to Blizzard without them asking, that is okay.
On January 14 2016 06:46 Clonester wrote: Double nerf for Protoss.... the terran dream and needed. At least in the early stage.
but will we see a 35% PvZ soon?
Well, you can kiss goodbye the 50/50 win rate for PvT too. Adepts were buoying a weak Protoss.
The adept and PO are too much of a crutch for bad design. On the bright side, I think it's a necessary change in the short term to help amplify other issues in the match up, which can be changed as well. The game will be better for it in the end.
This is true, the Adept and PO needed a nerf. It just would have been nice to get a buff for Protoss that would help them mid-game against Zerg and Terran so we don't have to suffer with lousy win rates for awhile.
It is just something you learn in grade school. If you take weight off one side of a balanced scale, you have to take weight off the other, or it isn't balanced.
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units on the ground, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
Golden post.
Seriously though.
BW: Templar and Reavers shut down an entire tech tree (bio) and T is forced to mech = great game SC2: Vipers and Immortals make it difficult to mass only factory units and T is forced to bio = shit game
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
there would be. Players would just need to adapt and don't amove into 20 siege tanks like they currently do. they would have to harass everywhere, force the mech player to spread himself out, then when he's spread out you can start trading. with him, over and over again, keeping his tank count low, meanwhile outexpanding him so you are allowed to trade slightly inefficiently. Then when he's trying to attack he has to keep a part of his army at home and you can with a good surround beat his army.
Watch any high level bio vs mech HotS game to see how you are supposed to play vs tanks that actually scare your army away.
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
there would be. Players would just need to adapt and don't amove into 20 siege tanks like they currently do. they would have to harass everywhere, force the mech player to spread himself out, then when he's spread out you can start trading. with him, over and over again, keeping his tank count low, meanwhile outexpanding him so you are allowed to trade slightly inefficiently. Then when he's trying to attack he has to keep a part of his army at home and you can with a good surround beat his army.
Watch any high level bio vs mech HotS game to see how you are supposed to play vs tanks that actually scare your army away.
This is with CURRENT mech units.
If mech was buffed to the level that people want, received better AA options, etc. then it would obviously be OP.
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
there would be. Players would just need to adapt and don't amove into 20 siege tanks like they currently do. they would have to harass everywhere, force the mech player to spread himself out, then when he's spread out you can start trading. with him, over and over again, keeping his tank count low, meanwhile outexpanding him so you are allowed to trade slightly inefficiently. Then when he's trying to attack he has to keep a part of his army at home and you can with a good surround beat his army.
Watch any high level bio vs mech HotS game to see how you are supposed to play vs tanks that actually scare your army away.
This is with CURRENT mech units.
If mech was buffed to the level that people want, received better AA options, etc. then it would obviously be OP.
Would it be OP? Or would it be finally even with Bio as am option?
If anything Bio is the OP thing. It counters everything and has no major weakness. You can say AOE but that doesn't really stop people staying with Bio until they lose or win.
mutas are very strong in ZvZ, it's difficult to get to vipers when it's hard to take bases and keep on the attack. perhaps nydus is the secret ingredient to beating muta's so you can assault and defend more effectively. What I'm saying is a nerf to +bio on spore crawlers isn't the way to go imo, I thought that change in HotS was good.
I think MSC's, should start with 50 energy. A lot of early game all-ins just beat toss straight up, I think 50 energy is correct for photon overcharge but I also think toss should have the ability to use it right away if necessary. Remember, if the first 50 energy is used, the attacking player can just back off or do a run by and wait until it's over and toss has to build 50 energy again which takes awhile.
I don't think Zerg is weak at all, I think Zerg's strongest unit is the Lurker and isn't being abused correctly yet.
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
there would be. Players would just need to adapt and don't amove into 20 siege tanks like they currently do. they would have to harass everywhere, force the mech player to spread himself out, then when he's spread out you can start trading. with him, over and over again, keeping his tank count low, meanwhile outexpanding him so you are allowed to trade slightly inefficiently. Then when he's trying to attack he has to keep a part of his army at home and you can with a good surround beat his army.
Watch any high level bio vs mech HotS game to see how you are supposed to play vs tanks that actually scare your army away.
This is with CURRENT mech units.
If mech was buffed to the level that people want, received better AA options, etc. then it would obviously be OP.
current mech is making air units and thus force the mech player to make air units himself and let the game culminate in a 200/200 air battle. hots mech in tvt was similar to how it should be but it only worked in tvt because tanks are garbage in the other matchups.
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
there would be. Players would just need to adapt and don't amove into 20 siege tanks like they currently do. they would have to harass everywhere, force the mech player to spread himself out, then when he's spread out you can start trading. with him, over and over again, keeping his tank count low, meanwhile outexpanding him so you are allowed to trade slightly inefficiently. Then when he's trying to attack he has to keep a part of his army at home and you can with a good surround beat his army.
Watch any high level bio vs mech HotS game to see how you are supposed to play vs tanks that actually scare your army away.
This is with CURRENT mech units.
If mech was buffed to the level that people want, received better AA options, etc. then it would obviously be OP.
To be honest is only the people that DON'T want make that go "OMG THEY WOULD NEED SUCH BIG BUFF SO OP TURTLE"
Most mech players simply go "well a small change here or there and then go from there would be nice"
great decision for the adept nerf, i was afraid blizz would ignore a more nuanced approach like this in favor of slamming it with the nerf hammer, but i'm glad i was wrong.
imo shade cancel should still be removed, but for design and not balance, due to how it can abuse the defender's positioning.
On January 14 2016 07:50 Tyrhanius wrote: Mech players are always so funny :
Say Mech is so strategic because it's positionning.
When you manage to catch them offguard while they're traveling map : They whine, says mech is not enought mobile, or the map is bad so they force to turtle : So they just want to take abusive position, and the others can't deny them to take this position....
When you use air units like mutas to counter the tank that outrange every zerg units, they whine Mech isn't great enough vs air, need stronger AA.
When you build multiple slow units, come from different angle to clean tank, and minimize AOE : They whine tank dmg isn't high enough, they need stronger tank that deal more dmg and "zone" the others units (meaning they want a sieged tank creates a no man's land around it where every enemy units is crushed).
When they turtle, during HOTS, their is no other way than slowly killing them with thousands wave of SH. They want remove SH, cause boring game because of SH, while they're the turtling guys and the Zerg just react to their style, while they can play bio and avoid this...
All they really want is build tanks, siege them, then the others can't do nothing so they win the game....
If you buffed the tank and made AA from the factory stronger there would be literally no way to kill mech.
there would be. Players would just need to adapt and don't amove into 20 siege tanks like they currently do. they would have to harass everywhere, force the mech player to spread himself out, then when he's spread out you can start trading. with him, over and over again, keeping his tank count low, meanwhile outexpanding him so you are allowed to trade slightly inefficiently. Then when he's trying to attack he has to keep a part of his army at home and you can with a good surround beat his army.
Watch any high level bio vs mech HotS game to see how you are supposed to play vs tanks that actually scare your army away.
This is with CURRENT mech units.
If mech was buffed to the level that people want, received better AA options, etc. then it would obviously be OP.
With current mech units, mech is literally unplayable. With buffs, mech would become playable. With more buffs, mech would become broken. Seems pretty straight forward. Buff it just enough for it to be playable but not broken and call it a day.
Honestly I felt like the adept should just be a unit that requires the twilight council without a stat nerf, thereby forcing the protoss down a particular tech path in order to get them.
People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
On January 14 2016 09:17 Energizer wrote: Honestly I felt like the adept should just be a unit that requires the twilight council without a stat nerf, thereby forcing the protoss down a particular tech path in order to get them.
I think so too, though it might make it too hard for Toss to punish greed. But honestly something like this instead of the -1 damage to +vs light, coupled with removing the ability for Corrosive Bile to deal damage to buildings and maybe removing the Liberator range upgrade would benefit the game greatly.
I'm scared of the PO nerf, while good and neccessary in PvT I kinda fear Roach Ravager pushes will become undefendable if you don't go Disruptors, which is something like no Korean pros does unless against Lurkers because they aren't that good really
i dont get why protoss cry about overcharge nerf, just build some cannons???, we terrans or zergs, dont have free energy based uber defense, we have to build turrents ,bunkers, spore ,spines aswell
cannons+ free 4 pylons overcharge, sounds good to me for defense
overall very good direction so far!!! good job, cant wait for the patch
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Well if Blizzard would finally get their asses up it wouldn´t be "boring" as a lot of people call it. Of course Mech was always more defensive than Bio. But this is the biggest problem with this game. It is too fast. So fast that people call a more defensive playstyle automaticlly boring. I didn´t followed BW but Im sure this wasn´t the case there. Another problem is that people automaticlly think Mech is unbeatable if it gets finally the attention it deserves. It wouldn´t be IF THEY WOULD FINALLY DO SOMETHING. This is another problem: They ask for advice and feedback, which is great, but they should know whats best for the game themselves. It´s their own game. Im sure Blizzard knew exactly how the Units should interact and synergise with each other in BW. Just look at Factory Units and how well they synergised back then. It was strong but still beatable.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
Mech does not have to be turtle. There are many "aggressive" mech players like HTOMario, Lilikanin or Strelok that really died off after LOTV nerfed mech into oblivion.
All these players used harass options for mech and usually transitioned into mech gradually for a larger push. For instance, Mario used to mass WM with tank push frequently in HOTS. Now, with units like the disruptor, this is worthless. Furthermore, there are complications with unit functionality, build time and investment of mech with no real "payout"; the units are more expensive but inferior. The cyclone is garbage (less HP than a marauder) but costs 150/150 and 3 supply. Tank has been nerfed. Combined armory upgrades have been nerfed. Raven has been nerfed. Thor High Impact was removed. And now new Viper abilities such as PB, longer BL range, Ravagers, and adept mobility outclass mech. I think even the immortal shield change was more of a buff to hard countering tanks, than it was a nerf. The all-ins from opposing races has even made mech more risky and less able to defend - like warp prism/adept or indestructible nydus (again weak in small numbers and long build time). It is pretty absurd. And Blizzard questions: Why is mech worse? Really? You did everything in your power to destroy it...congrats
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
People that like turtle will turtle regardless of mech.
Mech =/= turtle
Turtle = Turtle (kind of obvious no?)
Also just because its your opinion that mech is JUST turtle, wich wasn't, it doesn't means it has to be like that(or will). Mech created some of the games from the "best games of 20xx" threads, for example.
I absolutely agree that some of these maps, dusk and orbital, makes it very hard for terran to attack a protoss. However, I completely disagree that the same case is to be said for zerg. Zerg has 2x or 3x as many options to attack before the 10 minute mark compared to HotS, and many of these include almost every single tech choice and unit choice available in many different compositions and forms.
I find it very concerning that the current assesment of PvZ balance is that it is protoss favored. There is no statistic or aspect of the gameplay as far as I know that suggest this. If anything it is the opposite.
On January 14 2016 03:46 blade55555 wrote: I like their consideration to remove spore crawler damage to Mutalisks. Thank yeeee Blizzard. I think Mutas are strong in zvz as it is, but now spores won't be so godly versus them will be kind of nice.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Idk about this, don't muts already have a place in zvz?
The last thing I want is for zvz to turn back into muta vs. muta wars. That destroyed any enjoyment of the matchup for me.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
Completely misinformed. A stronger and actually viable tank will on the contrary encourage more action, because a mech player will be able to move out on the map with a squad of units to control space and secure areas. The reason mech involves turtling now is because tanks are garbage until you get 15 of them and are not at all cost effective in low numbers.
This can easily be fixed by removing overkill protection and greatly buffing the damage.
Just to re-iterate what others said: The reason as a mech player in TvP and TvZ I don't move out but turtle (to make a switch to air generally) is because mech is bad. Moving out is suicidal. When your number one reason for losing from a good position is "I moved out", you quickly realise you shouldn't do that if you want to win.
At the same time I received enough abuse from Zergs that I was only a filthy turtler, while I was destroying half their bases I was still turtling according to them (and this was early-mid game). Or recently a protoss who also considered my a filthy turtler who I didn't harass, because he build tons of cannons around every base he had to make an air armada, and then I was the turtler.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
Completely misinformed. A stronger and actually viable tank will on the contrary encourage more action, because a mech player will be able to move out on the map with a squad of units to control space and secure areas. The reason mech involves turtling now is because tanks are garbage until you get 15 of them and are not at all cost effective in low numbers.
This can easily be fixed by removing overkill protection and greatly buffing the damage.
Typical mech argument : more action : the true meaning of this is they will win the game way faster and easily so it's more action for them....
Control space and area : you want to slowly push with no possibility for other to have any sort of counter play vs this. By the way Photon overcharge is securing space, so it's good right ?
Not surprised if Mech is the style the worst players love the must, they don't want a strategic game where the most clever, the most talented win, they just want them vs some kind of IA (the other players), if they don't do any mistake they will win 100%, and the other army die under tank shot without killing anything...
I have no problem beating mech players, but it's more boring than and i prefer a game where I lose vs bio. And when they lose while they stay passive, be outplayed, they ragequit or insult, come on balance topic and "Plz buff mech, it's not me who is bad, it's just mech isn't really viable..."
If you really want some interesting mech, you don't want a tank centric mech, you rather want to nerf tank range when it's sieged, and buff the other mech units.
For ZvZ, i don't really understand DK. It's miror, mutas are not weak at all, pro players plays much more mutas play than on HOTS, you can mass them, transition to roach, lurker, or ultra, it's good vs ravagers/lurker. If you nerf spores, it will just make only mutas vs mutas war while currently there is so many different strategies.
Plz don't touch anything to this match up, it's currently the best mirror.
I get why mech isn't the most exciting by action in the world, but I still really enjoyed the excitement through tension that mech always brought to the table.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Completely agree. Mech players were complaining how games went on for longer than any strategy/matchup because of SH but they've been removed and it is the same story. If Blizzard make mech stronger then they will be contradicting there new philosophy in LOTV of trying to make games, more quicker, more fun etc it'll just be another hour game(at least!) to watch or Avilo holding up the WCS again for like 4 hours. Viewers will also be bored out there skull.
Completely misinformed. A stronger and actually viable tank will on the contrary encourage more action, because a mech player will be able to move out on the map with a squad of units to control space and secure areas. The reason mech involves turtling now is because tanks are garbage until you get 15 of them and are not at all cost effective in low numbers.
This can easily be fixed by removing overkill protection and greatly buffing the damage.
Not surprised if Mech is the style the worst players love the must, they don't want a strategic game where the most clever, the most talented win,
Typical post from the, lets say, less talented, who don't realise they play a strategy game. Always the worst players who think they should win because they managed to follow a BO from youtube and click faster than their opponent. But proper decission making, good positioning and actual strategic decissions are undesirable for these players.
If you really want some interesting mech, you don't want a tank centric mech, you rather want to nerf tank range when it's sieged, and buff the other mech units.
Color me surprised. Instead of buffing the unit that defines mech play and is already weak, you want to nerf it to useless and make mech more interesting by making it about massing and a-moving a hellbat + thor army? Maybe the issue in this discussion is that people have a completely different definition of 'interesting'.
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran.
Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate?
Quit being a dick. First of all I've said that "mech is said not to be viable" referencing other people on this forum. Second, I have a lot of experience playing AND watching StarCraft 2 to comfortably stand by that statement.
Third, it fucking makes sense doesn't it? A unit that can make tanks not shoot and kills Vikings in an AoE?
Hey, brilliant one. At the end of HOTS Mech was very strong in TvZ, and blinding cloud was around then, wasn't it? Well that hasn't changed. Now the starport has been very buffed, and we have parasitic bomb... parasitic bomb is not a magic solution, it hits one unit, you spread the unit out... you have Thors hitting the vipers, you have liberators and vikings. Last time I checked they were buffing Thors AA damage to ignore armored too. Your banshees are fast, you dont even need large numbers... Go ahead and add ghosts. Actually parasitic bomb in TvZ mech is not nearly as strong as I hear everyone saying it is. Let's go over the things Mech has added in LOTV: -cyclones (none of you know how to use them yet) -liberators -banshee speed -BC can warp anywhere Hmmm Actually now the maps squeeze together more quickly it helps mech believe it or not, I hear everyone saying the econ change hurt mech but no, it didn't, you want the map to mine out as a mech player. Good time for mech.
Mech wasn't stong vs Zerg in HotS. Skyterran was, but I still don't think skyterran won more games than lost. I think all the discussions about mech just shows that many people are passionate about it and want it to work. I also can't remember a boring professional mech game except when swarm hosts were a thing.
Mech needs to be able to harass, poke and set up attacks on the map for it to work, be fun to play with and fun to play against.
I hear that if mech gets buffed, it will be unbreakable which i dont buy. To fight mech today you amove pretty much.
To fight mech when its buffed, you need to position your units before you amove. Flank, draw widow mines. You can also use drop to use at the tank line. Toss and zerg has better macro than mech has. Warpgate=two cycles instead of one in lategame. With Chronoboost a bit more. Zerg=remax instantly in lategame.
And no, the mech units wont auto-target it since if u have other air units thats the priority and if you dont have other air units, the thors/cyclones or w.e will still auto-target the ground units. HARDCOUNTERS SUCK!
Instead of nagging about that mech is so boring. Why not nag that the hardcounters needs to change in this game. I want a better and healthy game. I do not want a niche change that doesnt change anything in the long run.
Some things to think about for mech: a) HELLBAT, change this terrible boring a-move unit. b) Thor, clunky, hard to control. Hard to micro. Why not look at this unit and say "hey, maybe this is one of the key units to bring mech into the fine line" c) Cyclone, Can be fun to use in the early game since u need to position it, micro it, just be careful all around. But then it loses its purpose for good i would most likely say. Still have some use in tvt but this is about NONE-MIRRORS. Look at this unit and say "Hm can mech work if this units gets some love"? d) TANK. This unit is tricky. So many of the factory units are just lacklusting in either power or control or utility. So where exactly do tank stand? e) Viking, I dont call viking mech here BUT what this unit do is it kinda neglects alot of things with its mega range and therefore it makes it so very stale. I would seriously want this unit changed to, might indirectly make things more interesting. Lets imagine viking were changed to 6range. Now vipers would dominate but changing vipers would be an easier thing to do, right? Colossus would need to have less range though, which would mean lurkers would outrange them. Would be problematic but still worth to look at and then change these relationships to.
Now on top of my head i cant think of any more hardcounters than the viper. One last thing here, i dont call MECH bringing in medivacs. I would not like if mech was depondant on medivacs which they might be if vipers dont get changed for example.
Mech is mech=The factory units. PLEASE dont call air units mech even though they are mechanical. BLIZZARD PLZ dont do that. Mech=factory units, thats what it was called in BROODWAR and SC2. What iam saying is that people called mech in sc2 the factory units till some other ppl started to add in airunits(blizzard you did this, shame on you) to the mech say. It doesnt differentiate itself well if all mechanical units is called "mech".
So if blizz wants mech to work, they should focus on the factory units alone and not be reliant on other support units.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
I honestly think he just makes up half of his stuff. He says he takes pro feedback but then says it has little influence because people say different things (no kidding dawg)...
Open your eyes. You want factory play without being reliant on support units, ok. So say that's balanced, say we reach a state in which factory units alone can deal with current compositions (whether straight up or there are mobility interactions) half of the time. Then how insanely stupid does the Terran player have to be to not add ghosts that fuck key units with Snipe and EMP or ravens that make your composition invulnerable to projectiles and have a run away or lose button that they conveniently activate after you have already commited to the combat. How dense do you have to be not to build vikings as a reaction to certain air units like Broodlords. No matter if Thor/Cyclone/Widow Mine cuts it, Thor/Cyclone/Widow Mine/Viking is better because broods dont shoot up. And who in their right mind would skip liberators completely? Open your eyes. You are still playing Terran and not some Fantasy Transformer race limited to the factory. And don't even come with abstruse arguments about nerfing everything down until you can live in your little dreamworld. Blizzard's not going to remodel the whole game and it's going to screw up bio a lot because they need a lot of those units to be as they are. Mech is going to be viable with the Starport and with the ghosts, or not at all.
On January 14 2016 03:58 Ghanburighan wrote: Love the personal story.
Regarding ``mech'', I guess DinoMight's thread will provide some insight: original thread.
Am I the only one that didn't quite get what they're testing with the energy change for overcharge? It's going to cost 25 more? So instead of 6 pylons, 3 will be overcharged?
Well if you are playing vs P and he has that much energy, your approach is wrong.
Force overcharge and move position.
You are thinking he can overcharge to win. He is thinking he can overcharge to not die. Now you will make this less of a thing.
On January 14 2016 19:17 -Kyo- wrote: I honestly think he just makes up half of his stuff. He says he takes pro feedback but then says it has little influence because people say different things (no kidding dawg)...
And he doesn't know why mech doesn't work and then provides 2 examples as to why it doesn't.
I would like to see Ravagers get an Armored Tag. They just don't seem to die against Siege Tanks and Marauders.
Additionally, please experiment with nerfing the Ultralisk Chitanous Plating from +4 to +3 and find a way to make Liberators less powerful when massed, as mass Liberator is a boring and silly strategy.
Lastly, I've been mentioning that Adept change for ages. GJ!
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
EDIT: Polt would take a third, wait, and then hit a 2-2 timing with Marine-Tank while securing a 4th in the middle of the map. Probably hit around the same time, if not later, than the 150ish supply mech timing.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Edit: IIRC it was Life vs Maru, Terraform, PL Playoff.
On January 14 2016 09:35 Tresher wrote: People here that complain about Mech being OP if they tweak it are so funny. You can clearly see that these are the people that A-move into Tanks (which shouldn´t be possible to some extend at least) and cry about not having enough counters for it, despite there being tons of options for every race.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
The fact is, like it or not, wether mech is weak or strong, a lot of people (and from my personal experience Terran as much as Zerg) are just not enjoying playing against mech or even just watching it. As far as I am concern, I do/did not A click into a mech army because I expected it to work, but I do it out of boredness and I just don't want to play that kind of game so I just want to leave quickly. If it works, well that's nice, if it's not working then I just leave the game even if I'm still ahead after the failed attack as I refuse to lose more time with it that I already did. That is the mindset that I have against mech, and I can't extrapolate about how many share my views about it I just know that many of Z/T I have discussed with toward the end of HoTS shared this mindset.
So with that in mind, please understand that I (and I believe, a lot of people even among pros LiquidRet has been pretty vocal about it if I remember correctly) are against to any kind of mech buff because I do not really want to promote this very boring play style. The way I see it is that, it's like a Zerg who would want full SwarmHost spore to be viable again or Protoss who would want to be able to make only photon canon and Voidray and A click when he wants.
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
On January 14 2016 15:41 Sissors wrote: Just to re-iterate what others said: The reason as a mech player in TvP and TvZ I don't move out but turtle (to make a switch to air generally) is because mech is bad. Moving out is suicidal. When your number one reason for losing from a good position is "I moved out", you quickly realise you shouldn't do that if you want to win.
At the same time I received enough abuse from Zergs that I was only a filthy turtler, while I was destroying half their bases I was still turtling according to them (and this was early-mid game). Or recently a protoss who also considered my a filthy turtler who I didn't harass, because he build tons of cannons around every base he had to make an air armada, and then I was the turtler.
People being bm on ladder is irrelevant to any arguments of design/balance.
You lose the most when you move out right?
So if we buff the units why would you move out?
Wouldn't it still be safer to stay back and play for the map split than to move out?
Or will you not be able to do that because the other races have some super strong late game tech?
If they do then why would they try to attack you instead of just turtling to that super strong late game tech?
On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote: [quote]
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches?
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote: [quote] comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech.
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
While mech isn't the only case of Deathball or lose in the game it was one of the most blatant. At the moment the design team is trying to move away from the turtle and the deathball so making imporvements which would help such a style is unlikely.
On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote: [quote]
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
While mech isn't the only case of Deathball or lose in the game it was one of the most blatant. At the moment the design team is trying to move away from the turtle and the deathball so making imporvements which would help such a style is unlikely.
Other people in this thread have already addressed this better than I can. May I refer you to page 8 (which also happens to be the name of a great British movie starring the lovely Rachel Weisz and Bill Nighy) of this thread? Also, if you haven't seen it, go watch ForGG vs. Life. Lots of great games in those two series.
Issue of mobility, everything in the game over the years has been made faster, maps bigger, yet nothing to help Mech with that part. Having a few fast units with slow units doesn't work well with this game.
I suggest the following:
Get rid of siege tank pick-up. Make unsieged tanks faster. Reduce Thor Size/Cost 25%, adjust damage to be less(not sure exact would have to play with it) supply -1, Speed increase. Add upgrade at the armory that allows for 50% reduced transformation time of Mech units. Siege/unsiege time, Thor transform time, Hellbat/helion conversion, viking ground to air transfer time, would all be included with that. Slight increase to viking ground damage.
If the above changes mean that a slight damage nerf would be needed that is fine to all the units. The fact is the mobility makes it tough to play and I think the changes above once the sweet spot was found would help mech mobility and function. Can't make everything in the game faster, maps bigger, and do nothing with mech and then not understand why people just turtle or don't use it.
On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote: [quote]
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up.
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
how do you know? did you make a poll to see how many people like mech and how many don't? Or do you just assume that everyone feels the same way about mech as you? Seeing how many people demand mech to be viable, even in korea, it's pretty clear that a lot of people like mech.
Rather than increasing overcharge attack speed I would give it +1 range and let it last a few seconds longer. Well maybe a bit of everything is best instead of giving it huge attack speed buffs which enables pylons to snipe down committed units too quickly and therefore prevents the opponent from taking risks.
On January 14 2016 22:47 FLuE wrote: How I'd Fix Mech:
Issue of mobility, everything in the game over the years has been made faster, maps bigger, yet nothing to help Mech with that part. Having a few fast units with slow units doesn't work well with this game.
I suggest the following:
Get rid of siege tank pick-up. Make unsieged tanks faster. Reduce Thor Size/Cost 25%, adjust damage to be less(not sure exact would have to play with it) supply -1, Speed increase. Add upgrade at the armory that allows for 50% reduced transformation time of Mech units. Siege/unsiege time, Thor transform time, Hellbat/helion conversion, viking ground to air transfer time, would all be included with that. Slight increase to viking ground damage.
That sounds good to me. Getting rid of siege mode drops and buffing mech in other ways is essential I believe.
As well it should be considered to give spine crawlers a small +biological dmg upgrade at lair as it looks like that basic units overrun them too easily. Especially in ZvZ this could help to allow more versatile play but also this relatively strengthens mech units in TvZ .
i like the siege tank pickups in TvZ. otherwize tanks would be to easy to kill for ravengers. but im not a big fan of the new tvt because of it... so i dont mind siege tank pickups to be gone...
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
Just remove Photon Overcharge. Ever since That and swarmhost was added the player numbers have dropped in SC2. The idea of 1 click defense is really bad for a strategy game. Please end the strategy of protoss turteling to a very strong 2 base allin with only 1 unit on the map(MSC).
The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
That said I absolutely rekt a guy with mech TvP on the ladder yesterday so for all you amateurs it's definitely viable
On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote: [quote] Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
While mech isn't the only case of Deathball or lose in the game it was one of the most blatant. At the moment the design team is trying to move away from the turtle and the deathball so making imporvements which would help such a style is unlikely.
Other people in this thread have already addressed this better than I can. May I refer you to page 8 (which also happens to be the name of a great British movie starring the lovely Rachel Weisz and Bill Nighy) of this thread? Also, if you haven't seen it, go watch ForGG vs. Life. Lots of great games in those two series.
ForGG vs Life was bio vs 10 pool 2 rax very very sloppy mech play vs very very sloppy anti mech play Even more sloppy mech play vs decent anti mech play a roach queen all in hellion banshee into bio
I didn't see anything that adresses my questions on page 8 Maybe i am not expressing myself well enough so here is my argument against mech.
Mech play issues stem from the maps. In bw which every mech argument cites at least once had very spread out bases which meant that if mech player tried to turtle as hard as they can they would be confined to a much smaller number of bases when compared to SC2 which meant that you could just take the entire map vs a mech play and trade stupidly cost inefficiently and still win
In SC2 however you can split almost every map. The ones you can't split are unplayable in zvt (which is why mech was mostly played on 2 player maps). Because a lot of the maps were symmetrical in sc2 you could simply build a huge defensive line around your first 4 bases that you slowly expand to the final outer bases (usually 2 or 4 more) and then you have a split map with a massive turret tank PF fort sterching across it (not to mention PDD )
Put simply you need to spread out far more in bw to split the map then in sc2 which means you would naturally have a lot more gaps in your defense.
So why not spread out bases like they were in bw?
That's simply not an option due to the insane streght of harrassment mainly the prism and the medivac ( i guess mutas too) In bw dropships were expensive and didn't add anything to your army strength thus making a high number of them was unreasonable, in sc2 terrans reguarly have 10 dropships as part of their army that can drop 80 supply half way across the map in a few seconds. While the warp prism doesn't directly add to your army strenght like the medivac it forces a commitment of defensive units large enough to defend a warp in (could be anywhere between 4 and 12 gates) while the prism itself can be void of any units thus losing it would only incur a 200 mineral loss and some robo production time.
(Yes arbiters could do essentially low risk doom drops but terran had mines everywhere and zerg aside from having scourges and mutas flying around could also stall an entire army with a few lurkers and a defilier)
Super speed regen mutas are also part of this problem despite been a huge investment due to their extreme base trade strength making it very dangerous to move out.
This all means that chokes don't offer the same the same defense as they did in bw where could put 4 tanks in a choke and a wall off and it became super hard to attack by ground but in sc2 you could just drop where it's undefended (or on the tanks) much more easily and with a much smaller investment.
Something seemingly small that adds to this vulnerability to harassment is that all the bases are the same. In bw usually one of your closest 2 bases to your main didn't have gas in it on a lot of maps. When you play a very gas intensive style like mech this caused you to float minerals. You could spend those minerals on extra turrets to cover mitigate the issue of spread out bases.
In sc2 by comparison your income is has a much better mineral to gas ratio so you usually pump units non stop until you max and THEN you start massing static D to make the impregnable fort.
In bw the more agressive mech plays were done by expanding quicker towards your opponents bases rather than the far out bases on the map and trying to contain them.
The defensive play for the late game style boiled down to harass with vultures and spam mines to take map control build up a sizeable army and slowly expand your base to encompass half the bases on your side and push forward the oppoents base that is closest to you (usually it's also very fresh and full of juicy minerals) and deny it. Proceed to defend until your opponent runs out of minerals.
This is the exact same style as in sc2 turtle mech.
BW one was interesting to watch and fun to play against because it was imbalanced in a way, while the mech units (tanks and vultures mainly, goliaths were more okay at their job units than imba units :D) had obscene power it was compensated by how much they had to do defend all of the terrans bases while not letting the other player take the entire map. Also other races had retarded units like defilers to help fight against them :D.
SC2 mech did the same thing. The reason it was boring is because the mech player had no need to spread out as much to split the map. So the enemy had a much smaller opportunity to attack where their defense is weak ,except on large maps, on which mech is rarely played because it can't even attempt to spread the map (Cept for a few silly games like the one between life vs bbyong on Cactus valley). So since there are few weak points fighting mech comes down to timings, all ins or attempting to take a greater portion than half of the map and then trading until the terran runs out of money (in hots all ins and timings were dominant because ravens were so strong once sh couldn't force them to spend energy AND force a lot of tanks, in lotv split map would be dominant since zerg late game will just murder mech straight up without and of that strategic bs if the incomes are close)
My argument is that we already had BW mech in SC2 it was the end of HOTS the reason it wasn't cool like in BW was that while BW mech had better tools it's scenarios were much more difficult.
Does this epic wall of text betray how bored I am at work
I really want to learn to express my opinions accuratly without mass walls like this, hmm let's try TLDR
Mech was cool in bw cause maps were super spread out in sc2 bases are too close together we can't have bw like maps in sc2 cause harrassment options are way too strong otherwise we already saw the same style of mech in sc2 as in bw at the end of hots and it was fucking boring.
On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote: [quote] Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether.
I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech.
Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure.
And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong).
Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball.
And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X.
Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point?
Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play)
I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!!
Go watch something else?
All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned.
There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what?
Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2.
Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
how do you know? did you make a poll to see how many people like mech and how many don't? Or do you just assume that everyone feels the same way about mech as you? Seeing how many people demand mech to be viable, even in korea, it's pretty clear that a lot of people like mech.
strawpoll.me random strawpoll I found Obviously you will say it's not relevant since it was before swarm host removal and the mech playstyle changed so drastically after that LOTV mech doesn't exist yet so there is no point to talk about how people feel about lotv mech No I didn't base my opinion on this poll Do you think protoss is not the most hated race in sc2? Do you think it's something you need statistics to assert rather than something commonly accepted? Mech is like that too :D
On January 15 2016 00:01 DinoMight wrote: The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
Yep. I used to think buffing the tank was the right idea, but the tankivac is pretty crucial for mobility. Like it or not, it's an expensive combination that also comes with an opportunity cost: it's micro intensive, as all transport + siege unit combinations are, and they aren't healing during this process.
This is why I included the hellbat as an issue; it just can't keep up with LOTV's speed and new AoE damage sources. This is the mech mineral dump unit, mind you. It has been completely reduced to a TvZ early game timing push, where even then, it's quickly phased out for marines. It's sub-optimal in every other context. It doesn't need to be as good or as versatile as marines, but it does need to be better than it is now. Being able to share upgrades with tanks is part of the trade-off anyway.
I think it would go a long way to give it a short burst of speed "the super waddle" and/or making the transformation time much faster. Also, we can consider allowing it to continue moving while its undergoing the transformation animation (still can't shoot until transformation is completed). I also think Blizzard should at least consider reversing the cargo space nerf to permit powerful hellbat drops right on top of enemy armies at the risk of losing medivacs. By no means do I believe all these suggestions should be implemented together, but I do believe something should be done.
I think helping the hellbat engage faster would go a long way. Tanks + improved hellbats + widow mine + medivac could be a potent anti-ground force with decent mobility, micromanagement, harass capacity, and aggression.
On January 15 2016 00:01 DinoMight wrote: The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
Yep. I used to think buffing the tank was the right idea, but the tankivac is pretty crucial for mobility. Like it or not, it's an expensive combination that also comes with an opportunity cost: it's micro intensive, as all transport + siege unit combinations are, and they aren't healing during this process.
This is why I included the hellbat as an issue; it just can't keep up with LOTV's speed and new AoE damage sources. This is the mech mineral dump unit, mind you. It has been completely reduced to a TvZ early game timing push, where even then, it's quickly phased out for marines. It's sub-optimal in every other context. It doesn't need to be as good or as versatile as marines, but it does need to be better than it is now. Being able to share upgrades with tanks is part of the trade-off anyway.
I think it would go a long way to give it a short burst of speed "the super waddle" and/or making the transformation time much faster. Also, we can consider allowing it to continue moving while its undergoing the transformation animation (still can't shoot until transformation is completed). I also think Blizzard should at least consider reversing the cargo space nerf to permit powerful hellbat drops right on top of enemy armies at the risk of losing medivacs. By no means do I believe all these suggestions should be implemented together, but I do believe something should be done.
I think helping the hellbat engage faster would go a long way. Tanks + improved hellbats + widow mine + medivac could be a potent anti-ground force with decent mobility, micromanagement, harass capacity, and aggression.
The Hellbat will always be an anti-light / meat shield unit though. What mech needs is something that can kill NON light units in the early-mid game.
I think this is the space the Cyclone needs to occupy. Give Terran something that can fight 15 Stalkers or 20 Roaches without needing to be sieged and supported by Hellbats...
I want to see Terrans pushing out with Hellion/Cyclone/Widow mine and being able to trade *SOMEWHAT effectively. If you can only ever fight when tanks are sieged and your opponent doesn't just let you march over to his base then by definition you have to turtle to a huuuuge number of Tanks and leapfrog...
On January 15 2016 00:01 DinoMight wrote: The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
Yep. I used to think buffing the tank was the right idea, but the tankivac is pretty crucial for mobility. Like it or not, it's an expensive combination that also comes with an opportunity cost: it's micro intensive, as all transport + siege unit combinations are, and they aren't healing during this process.
This is why I included the hellbat as an issue; it just can't keep up with LOTV's speed and new AoE damage sources. This is the mech mineral dump unit, mind you. It has been completely reduced to a TvZ early game timing push, where even then, it's quickly phased out for marines. It's sub-optimal in every other context. It doesn't need to be as good or as versatile as marines, but it does need to be better than it is now. Being able to share upgrades with tanks is part of the trade-off anyway.
I think it would go a long way to give it a short burst of speed "the super waddle" and/or making the transformation time much faster. Also, we can consider allowing it to continue moving while its undergoing the transformation animation (still can't shoot until transformation is completed). I also think Blizzard should at least consider reversing the cargo space nerf to permit powerful hellbat drops right on top of enemy armies at the risk of losing medivacs. By no means do I believe all these suggestions should be implemented together, but I do believe something should be done.
I think helping the hellbat engage faster would go a long way. Tanks + improved hellbats + widow mine + medivac could be a potent anti-ground force with decent mobility, micromanagement, harass capacity, and aggression.
The Hellbat will always be an anti-light / meat shield unit though. What mech needs is something that can kill NON light units in the early-mid game.
I think this is the space the Cyclone needs to occupy. Give Terran something that can fight 15 Stalkers or 20 Roaches without needing to be sieged and supported by Hellbats...
Oh, definitely. I'm of the opinion that the hellbat doesn't actually trade too badly vs non-light units, though, as long as it's permitted to close distance in a timely manner. And it has micro-potential that allows it to trade more efficiently, being that it needs to be moved within range 1 of ranged units in order to splash adjacent units consistently.
So, perhaps a combination of helping hellbats close distance and dodge AoE, alongside some cyclone support could go a long way.
On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote: Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote: Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
I think it would help mech A LOT.
Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers.
Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby.
On January 15 2016 01:48 ejozl wrote: Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby.
If you remove the bio tag, you kill the purpose of the medivac beyond just moving tanks around. If you keep tankivacs in the game, keeping hellbats bio allows for some synergy, otherwise, you're just doing even more to encourage marine/tank in every circumstance.
On January 15 2016 01:48 ejozl wrote: Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby.
If you remove the bio tag, you kill the purpose of the medivac beyond just moving tanks around. If you keep tankivacs in the game, keeping hellbats bio allows for some synergy, otherwise, you're just doing even more to encourage marine/tank in every circumstance.
Yeah, but the object of this would be to add in some design and actually make the units cool again, together with possibly having Mech come back. The bio tag on Hell bats always was a very forced solution. If we make Mech into Bio, then it's viable lol <.<
On January 15 2016 01:48 ejozl wrote: Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby.
If you remove the bio tag, you kill the purpose of the medivac beyond just moving tanks around. If you keep tankivacs in the game, keeping hellbats bio allows for some synergy, otherwise, you're just doing even more to encourage marine/tank in every circumstance.
Yeah, but the object of this would be to add in some design and actually make the units cool again, together with possibly having Mech come back. The bio tag on Hell bats always was a very forced solution. If we make Mech into Bio, then it's viable lol <.<
I think you can improve the hellbat while retaining the bio tag. It's clearly in a bad spot even with the tag, at the moment. And tankivacs are a vital component of giving mech mobility (also discourages turtling more-so than other proposed solutions), while still having more positional play than straight bio. I think removing the tankivac is off the table and medivacs are too costly to consider for the sole purpose of just moving tanks.
Retaining the bio tag doesn't make mech into bio, in my opinion. Philosophically, I think bio is defined by potent multi-prong harass, sniping key buildings, and avoiding too many direct engagements. Mech, on the other hand, would have less potent drops, more vulnerable flanks, but better head-on aggression. It's not so unlike the differences between muta/ling/baneling and roach/ravager, I believe.
On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote: Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
I think it would help mech A LOT.
Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers.
@roaches banshee? tanks? they both shit all over roaches if you have a wall, ofc if you try and rush right into cyclones you're gonna have a bad time, but saying you've nothing against roaches is really stupid.
I feel these changes will just patch current problems while creating more. Protoss still lacks of a solid core unit, adepts are just good in early and expecially vs zergs they don't have a role outside harassing at early stages. I would like to see something more consistant than this. They should change some general design or mechanic to make protoss being less gimmiky and more a solid race. Also PO nerf is huge vs early zerg attack strategies (ling drop, pool first, etc.) Hope these changes kick in soon so GSL+SSL could be a test field
If they only now have a system in place for gathering feedback from Korean pro-gamers then what exactly have they been doing for the last eleven years of Starcraft II development during which the Korean pro-scene was highly relevant?
On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote: Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
I think it would help mech A LOT.
Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers.
@roaches banshee? tanks? they both shit all over roaches if you have a wall, ofc if you try and rush right into cyclones you're gonna have a bad time, but saying you've nothing against roaches is really stupid.
Dude, try taking your 3rd against Roach/Ravager with Tanks at the same time as bio takes its 3rd.
That's what I'm trying to say. Mech has strong units but their immobility means they can't be out on the map to secure bases as fast as they need to be to keep up with the other races.
The exact reasons why mech struggles: - Lack of reliable and easy to get anti-air without compromising anti-ground. - Hard to establish good defence early on without falling behind considerably. - Tech switching in general is way too hard for terran for how their units work against opponents tech switches. - Upgrade dividing.
On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote: Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
I think it would help mech A LOT.
Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers.
@roaches banshee? tanks? they both shit all over roaches if you have a wall, ofc if you try and rush right into cyclones you're gonna have a bad time, but saying you've nothing against roaches is really stupid.
Dude, try taking your 3rd against Roach/Ravager with Tanks at the same time as bio takes its 3rd.
That's what I'm trying to say. Mech has strong units but their immobility means they can't be out on the map to secure bases as fast as they need to be to keep up with the other races.
You do know bio suffer from the same issue on this department right? If you want, you can easily just get a medivac + tank and take your 3rd without issue. Taking a 3rd vs roach/ravager isnt really a problem unless you're behind already (or you play on terrace, which is an issue in itself) its dealing with the cost efficiency + mass expanding of zergs once they get vipers out. Since there isnt really a suitable counter for the viper (good luck ever getting ghost near them) and the fact that they can easily much up cyclones/vikings or whateverr they can hit them with abducts/bomb, trading with zergs become harder and harder as the game goes on. if you however do proceed to max out on a good tank army with some cyclone/lib/viking support, you'll easily deal with ground stuff... right till you try and attack, in which case you're pretty screwed again.
buffing the cyclone isnt gonna let you take your 3rd faster vs roach/ravager, because either you're simply gonna roll over them due to the design of the unit itself, or its gonna be bad. balancing the cyclone is pretty damn difficult due to its nature, but if they want to do anything, i personally think reducing either its supply to 2 and rescale the dmg/cost of it, increase its health by, say 30 or so or just reduce its cost by 25-50 gas.
edit - Another thing that would be really nice would be to reduce the cost of the armory to 100/50 so getting double upgrades isnt such an insane investment.
Cylones are bad against Zerglings. Really bad. Mass Cyclones won't be imba against Zerg, I think bcause if Zerg sees them he can start making lings to trap them. Whe used with Hellions it will require micro from both sides.
On January 15 2016 05:54 DinoMight wrote: Cylones are bad against Zerglings. Really bad. Mass Cyclones won't be imba against Zerg, I think bcause if Zerg sees them he can start making lings to trap them. Whe used with Hellions it will require micro from both sides.
Wasn't the issue roach/ravager and not lings? Ofc the cyclone is bad against lings, it would be terrible if the unit had no counter at all. having played a lot of cyclone/hellion, im pretty convinced that if you buffed them anymore they'd shit on any zerg army if the player has any kind of decent micro.
On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote: Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75 Make it not require a tech lab Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
I've always thought todo be actually too exagerated, mech actually has a very strong force if well stablished and even if things like vipers and other stuff are really strong I think bits not so much like that.
Mechs needs a cheaper/weaker cyclone to allow them todo tech up.
A cheaper armory (100/50)
And cheaper upgrades, I think reducing the cost/time of blue flame, cyclone damage and banshee speed. They are the core mid game/map control/harass of mech. Also they are never researched when playing bio wich helps mech and doesn't buffs bio
Lastly I think making tanks unsiege when picked up but buff damage/speed attack could be good bit I'm not sure if it would be the best way to go
Oh also blizzard needs to recombine mech and air upgrades. Pretty ridiculous to have to have 3 armories to upgrade units. Most games right now you literally just upgrade either ground or air weapons and then you have to wait 5+ min to have 3/0 on your other set of units meanwhile your opponent is 3/3 during all that time lol.
On January 15 2016 05:54 DinoMight wrote: Cylones are bad against Zerglings. Really bad. Mass Cyclones won't be imba against Zerg, I think bcause if Zerg sees them he can start making lings to trap them. Whe used with Hellions it will require micro from both sides.
Wasn't the issue roach/ravager and not lings? Ofc the cyclone is bad against lings, it would be terrible if the unit had no counter at all. having played a lot of cyclone/hellion, im pretty convinced that if you buffed them anymore they'd shit on any zerg army if the player has any kind of decent micro.
Yeah, I was addressing a comment saying they would be too strong against Roaches... Zerg could respond to Cyclones by making more Lings.
On January 15 2016 06:07 avilo wrote: Oh also blizzard needs to recombine mech and air upgrades. Pretty ridiculous to have to have 3 armories to upgrade units. Most games right now you literally just upgrade either ground or air weapons and then you have to wait 5+ min to have 3/0 on your other set of units meanwhile your opponent is 3/3 during all that time lol.
Not really Avilo. Protoss needs a forge for ground units but they need to get a Fleet Beacon to upgrade their air units. Zerg air and ground are separate too.
Going mech you need 3x3 upgrades for all your shit to be max upgraded. The other races can't do that. Zerg needs at least 4x3, Protoss 5x3.
You guys are trying to convert Mech into an invulnerable, all-around composition. You want mech good against air. You want mech fast. You want mech good in the early game. Factory-only units suck, ant it is good that they do. Just as Barracks-only units sucks as themselves.
Besides, mech is horrible. 60+ minutes of slugfest. No thanks. Blizzard, please do not buff mech.
It's obvious why mech hurts, they even know it. Flying siege tanks is not the way to go for this game. It makes marine tank way too versatile in TvT, and it's dissatisfying to watch the ridiculous "action" all game until it invariably ends with a random doom drop. Rather buff the tank in other ways. I like that terran has the option to play defensibly as well. I may be one of the few, but I found intense enjoyment in Flash's latest TvT style in HotS.
The goal should be to somehow let players incorporate bio units into mech play just as bio play incorporates mech units. As a mineral dump, weak anti air and weak meat shield marines fit well.
Maybe this is worth a consideration: Allow terrans to upgrade marine shield at tech labs that either are connected to barracks or factories.
In the latest community feedback update DK specifically requested advice from the community on how to make mech work. Seeing as they liked the -1 vs light adept suggestion that I (and perhaps a few others) suggested, I thought why not propose some changes to help make mech more viable.
I'll keep it really brief. Warren Buffet always said that if you can't explain something simply then you don't understand it
I think the biggest problem facing mech right now is that it has absolutely no early game map presence, which prevents it from taking bases at the rate needed to keep up with the other races. For example:
TvZ: Zerg makes 15-20 roaches. How does T take his 3rd? Banshees? Gradually pushing out with sieged Tanks? With the faster rate at which bases mine out in LotV this is too slow. Even if the Terran is able to secure his base, he has no map presence left at all to deny the Zerg being even more greedy.
TvP: What does a Meching Terran do about 15 Stalkers sitting outside his natural denying his 3rd? Absolutely nothing, that's what. He's got to slowly push out with Siege Tanks as the Protoss takes his 3rd, 4th, and makes Tempests.
Solution:
Here is what I think can fix mech using the fewest possible changes.
1) Remove the tech lab requirement for the Cyclone and make it cheaper, say 125/75(100).
Terran needs something BESIDES sieged Tanks that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion, where you lose vision and wander into Photon Overcharge. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
2) Change parasitic bomb to not stack.
This can't be said enough. As it is, Mech needs Viking support and you can not allow one spell on the Viper to stop tanks from shooting and the other to instantly kill all anti-air. Reducing the damage is not enough, as simply adding one more Viper will have the same effect. Terran needs to be able to reasonably micro against PB, especially since Vikings are not as agile as Muta/Phoenixes.
TLDR; small groups of tanks aren't good. Mech needs another unit to fill the gap until Terran can get the infrastructure in place to make large groups of Tanks (which are really good). The Cyclone can fill this gap without being OP simply with a cost and infrastructure requirement reduction. With added map presence early in the game, mech can avoid falling behind economically and be a viable composition.
(Final note: really don't think the game needs a 100% overhaul for mech to be playable like people advocate all the time. And we're more likely to get something from Blizzard if we ask for small, SIMPLE change to as few things as possible.)
The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go: Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
I don't get the point of the pylon "nerf". Seems like it'll be the exact same as a bunch of pylons shooting at you. I guess the reaper won't immediately die the moment the msc comes out.
On January 15 2016 06:07 avilo wrote: Oh also blizzard needs to recombine mech and air upgrades. Pretty ridiculous to have to have 3 armories to upgrade units. Most games right now you literally just upgrade either ground or air weapons and then you have to wait 5+ min to have 3/0 on your other set of units meanwhile your opponent is 3/3 during all that time lol.
On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote: The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go: Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz
How about giving back Thors the ThorZain Strike Cannon. Make it a bit more responsive, but have it not stun the target for no apparent reason. Might even be another answer to the new Ultralisk ^^
On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote: The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go: Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz
If lurkers are good vs bio they would be broken vs protoss you can't work around this without patch like for the swarmhost or by buffing protoss units that counter lurkers to an insane degree. You could also make the tech time to lurker not be longer than the tech time to battle cruiser but naaaah let's buff it's range and damage some more
On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote: The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go: Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz
If lurkers are good vs bio they would be broken vs protoss you can't work around this without patch like for the swarmhost or by buffing protoss units that counter lurkers to an insane degree. You could also make the tech time to lurker not be longer than the tech time to battle cruiser but naaaah let's buff it's range and damage some more
Lurkers are actually pretty good versus Bio. The thing is 99% of zergs aren't even trying them out and trying to rush to Ultra's.
So until it becomes standard for Terran's to get their ghost timings 100% refined, this will be the case before experimentation goes into Lurkers.
I use Lurkers zvt and can tell you they are good versus Bio. The thing is, people seem to think going lurkers = rush them or only go lurkers and leave them by themselves. That is not the way to use lurkers and is why people will think their "bad".
Versus a standard bio composition Lurkers that are in a good position with ling/bane support do just fine against bio. You are correct though that if you just leave the Lurkers by themselves they get rekt.
I have beaten plenty of GM's with my style as well.
TLDR: Zergs don't know how to use Lurkers correctly or when to get them. They are vastly underrated versus Bio.
On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote: The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go: Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz
If lurkers are good vs bio they would be broken vs protoss you can't work around this without patch like for the swarmhost or by buffing protoss units that counter lurkers to an insane degree. You could also make the tech time to lurker not be longer than the tech time to battle cruiser but naaaah let's buff it's range and damage some more
Give protoss back their old colossus, helps them already against lurkers.
Talking about Lurkers, I think they should be buffed as they are too weak for ZvT right now. blade55555 talk about that it might be viable with ling baneling support, but I demand to Blizzard that pure Hydra/Lurker is viable against Terran and thus both units are buffed accordingly, something like 13 range Lurker and a HP buff for Hydra. If you think about it, it fits all the requires arguments :
1/ I liked Lurkers in an other game, so they should be playable in all match up in this one. 2/ It requires good positional and strategical play, instead of mindless click.
You could argue that with such a strong defensive composition Zerg player would be incline to never attack and split the map in two, but please don't think like that: if that's the case, then it means that Lurker should be even more buffed so we can move out on the map! And then, even though we would have an even stronger defensive position, trust us, we will not use it!
Some other may say that it will be imbalanced and these hydras/Lurker would be too strong in other composition, but meh, who cares? All what is important is that the composition I want to play is made viable by Blizzard.
Vanadiel, what brilliant idea! You need to make a new thread just for your post! Call it something like "Let's make hydra den/lurker work! Open letter to DK"
Again a ridiculous game between Seed and Bomber in Code A... Such a disgusting game... Adepts are way too imba, what are you waitng for nerfing them David Kim ? That's RIDICULOUS how games are not balanced whe protoss uses adept with or without warp prism...
We already lost Bomber if you do not patch soon, we will lose taeja, Ty, Jjakji and Maru... So no chance to have these good terrans in Code S these season...
Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
When I first heard about Adepts, I immediately knew they would be fucking broken. Protoss already had gimmicky shit that opponent could do nothing about it, and then they got that unit that can just move around invulnerably.
On January 15 2016 21:35 Big J wrote: Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
I'm pretty confident Adepts only really are overpowered when they have the Resonating Blades upgrade. Losing the -1 dmg removes some of the coolness of the early game Adept power imo. You could reduce it's attack speed value from the upgrade, or maybe when they've just shaded in, make it so they don't have the 45% + attack speed for like 3 seconds or so.
On January 15 2016 21:40 GreenHealing wrote: When I first heard about Adepts, I immediately knew they would be fucking broken. Protoss already had gimmicky shit that opponent could do nothing about it, and then they got that unit that can just move around invulnerably.
Did this really come as a surprise for anyone?
No it's what everybody told them right from the beginning.
Micro should be based on stats and movement and carefully designing unit relations, not on abilities.
Invulnerability should not be in the game.
Units shouldn't be able to move through obstacles.
Over and over again this was reiterated. But then blizzard made a clever PR move, introduced weekly feedback threads and suddenly if you gave negative feedback you were a hater and trying to kill the game.
On January 15 2016 21:35 Big J wrote: Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
I'm pretty confident Adepts only really are overpowered when they have the Resonating Blades upgrade. Losing the -1 dmg removes some of the coolness of the early game Adept power imo. You could reduce it's attack speed value from the upgrade, or maybe when they've just shaded in, make it so they don't have the 45% + attack speed for like 3 seconds or so.
Maybe give it the stimm treatment and increase it's research time
On January 15 2016 21:35 Big J wrote: Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
Agree with this.
Maybe make it destructible, or an upgrade or something. The thing is though, like the tankvac, it's the new shiny thing DK made up so he will be very very reluctant to change it.
I don't understand why (personally) lurkers do bonus vs armored and not light. It'd be much better to have them counter adepts/zealots and marines than what they currently counter. They'd still do well against tanks if you got in close, but they'd also be better against bio which to me is more interesting personally.
On January 15 2016 21:35 Big J wrote: Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
Agree with this.
Maybe make it destructible, or an upgrade or something. The thing is though, like the tankvac, it's the new shiny thing DK made up so he will be very very reluctant to change it.
I'm not that sure that DKim is behind designing new things in the game.
On January 15 2016 21:35 Big J wrote: Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
I'm pretty confident Adepts only really are overpowered when they have the Resonating Blades upgrade. Losing the -1 dmg removes some of the coolness of the early game Adept power imo. You could reduce it's attack speed value from the upgrade, or maybe when they've just shaded in, make it so they don't have the 45% + attack speed for like 3 seconds or so.
Maybe give it the stimm treatment and increase it's research time
Yeah, I mean it only makes sense. You give a decent unit in the Adept a crackling upgrade at Twilight Council. Actually it's 45% and Adrenal Glands is 40% and they even talked about nerfing Adrenal Glands in an earlier community update.. Also it's 100/100..
On January 15 2016 21:40 GreenHealing wrote: When I first heard about Adepts, I immediately knew they would be fucking broken. Protoss already had gimmicky shit that opponent could do nothing about it, and then they got that unit that can just move around invulnerably.
Did this really come as a surprise for anyone?
No it's what everybody told them right from the beginning.
Micro should be based on stats and movement and carefully designing unit relations, not on abilities.
Invulnerability should not be in the game.
Units shouldn't be able to move through obstacles.
Over and over again this was reiterated. But then blizzard made a clever PR move, introduced weekly feedback threads and suddenly if you gave negative feedback you were a hater and trying to kill the game.
Yep. All these updates read like a politician's PR press release. It seems like calling people 'negative,' and a 'hater,' or a 'balance whiner,' are the SC2 version of racism or sexual misconduct accusations are for politics - a way for people with no good arguements to shut down debate while maintaining the appearance of moral high ground.
Large corporations and their politics are very similar to governments and their politics. Nobody wants to rock the boat.
On January 15 2016 21:35 Big J wrote: Seed's interview was very clever, I hope David Kim listens to it.
All races need nerfs to all sorts of stuff (Zerg probably the most), in PvT the reason Protoss does so well is just that early imbalance beats late imbalance and the adepts win before Terran gets into their zone.
I really hope the gimmick -1dmg patch to adepts works out, because if not there is going to be a nerfhammer to adept-stats when the real problem is the shade.
Agree with this.
Maybe make it destructible, or an upgrade or something. The thing is though, like the tankvac, it's the new shiny thing DK made up so he will be very very reluctant to change it.
I'm not that sure that DKim is behind designing new things in the game.
Edit> Unless you meant Dark Knight
I don't know, i thought that after Dustin took a new role with Heroes, David became the new boss of SC2. If he didn't make the design he at least decided what was good and what not.
On January 15 2016 22:11 Qikz wrote: I don't understand why (personally) lurkers do bonus vs armored and not light. It'd be much better to have them counter adepts/zealots and marines than what they currently counter. They'd still do well against tanks if you got in close, but they'd also be better against bio which to me is more interesting personally.
Definitely, lurkers should probably do extra damage against biological (?) units.
On January 15 2016 22:20 AdrianHealeyy wrote: What, no bunker change?
I was looking forward to individually upgraded neosteel frame bunkers.
I wished they explored this in the beta. They made it so OVs can individual upgrade to dropships and I think that is pretty good design.
Yep. If they're worried about bunker rushes, they can just make it so that it's an ability that unlocks upon building an armory and/or engineering bay.
On January 15 2016 22:20 AdrianHealeyy wrote: What, no bunker change?
I was looking forward to individually upgraded neosteel frame bunkers.
I wished they explored this in the beta. They made it so OVs can individual upgrade to dropships and I think that is pretty good design.
Yep. If they're worried about bunker rushes, they can just make it so that it's an ability that unlocks upon building an armory and/or engineering bay.
Fusion core
the universal solution: if it's broken -> require fusion core
On January 15 2016 22:20 AdrianHealeyy wrote: What, no bunker change?
I was looking forward to individually upgraded neosteel frame bunkers.
I wished they explored this in the beta. They made it so OVs can individual upgrade to dropships and I think that is pretty good design.
Individually upgrading bunkers would have to be early game, and then, it wouldn't even solve one of the biggest problems: Terran has almost no way to defend satellite expansions once you get to 5+ bases. PFs don't stop harass, and that's what gets you at that stage. We can't possibly have enough supply at these bases while still defending pushes, executing harass, or pushing effectively. I would love to see some mid--nah, fuck it. Make the shit late game, I don't care. Just some form of anti-ground static defense structure.
Bunker Ideas Make the neosteel frame upgrade put an AG-only turret on the bunker. Come on, guys. Or, maybe the neosteel frame bunker gives Turrets a transformation ability, so they can transform into an AG-mode (kinda like entering and exiting siege mode, or defender mode, or hellbat mode).
I don't think any buff or modification to Terran's static defense should be accessible during the bunker-rush stage of the game though. Cheese like that is really more of a Protoss thing ; )
On January 15 2016 22:20 AdrianHealeyy wrote: What, no bunker change?
I was looking forward to individually upgraded neosteel frame bunkers.
I wished they explored this in the beta. They made it so OVs can individual upgrade to dropships and I think that is pretty good design.
Individually upgrading bunkers would have to be early game, and then, it wouldn't even solve one of the biggest problems: Terran has almost no way to defend satellite expansions once you get to 5+ bases. PFs don't stop harass, and that's what gets you at that stage. We can't possibly have enough supply at these bases while still defending pushes, executing harass, or pushing effectively. I would love to see some mid--nah, fuck it. Make the shit late game, I don't care. Just some form of anti-ground static defense structure.
Bunker Ideas Make the neosteel frame upgrade put an AG-only turret on the bunker. Come on, guys. Or, maybe the neosteel frame bunker gives Turrets a transformation ability, so they can transform into an AG-mode (kinda like entering and exiting siege mode, or defender mode, or hellbat mode).
I don't think any buff or modification to Terran's static defense should be accessible during the bunker-rush stage of the game though. Cheese like that is really more of a Protoss thing ; )
Really interesting and smart post I really hope David Kim will read this.
Nerfing adepts (which looks needed) will make the MU last longer. And we will see more lib play. Which P has not been able to deal well with.
It's going to be a whole new match up.
I hope pros figure out something stable. For both sides.
I forsee this change making T heavily favoured. But let's see what it brings. And what happens to the matchup in the first few weeks. There might be undeveloped BS options
On January 16 2016 04:02 Mozdk wrote: Nerfing adepts (which looks needed) will make the MU last longer. And we will see more lib play. Which P has not been able to deal well with.
It's going to be a whole new match up.
I hope pros figure out something stable. For both sides.
I forsee this change making T heavily favoured. But let's see what it brings. And what happens to the matchup in the first few weeks. There might be undeveloped BS options
The warp prism will still be incredibly strong, it just won't be broken-level OP, like it is now with the Adepts. Though, like many have suggested, the Adept's shade could be the culprit (but it's too beefy and the DPS is too good for that stage of the game, I'd say).
We'll see what happens. Because once Protoss starts building Tempests, things get tricky for Terran real quickly.
On January 15 2016 22:20 AdrianHealeyy wrote: What, no bunker change?
I was looking forward to individually upgraded neosteel frame bunkers.
I wished they explored this in the beta. They made it so OVs can individual upgrade to dropships and I think that is pretty good design.
Individually upgrading bunkers would have to be early game, and then, it wouldn't even solve one of the biggest problems: Terran has almost no way to defend satellite expansions once you get to 5+ bases. PFs don't stop harass, and that's what gets you at that stage. We can't possibly have enough supply at these bases while still defending pushes, executing harass, or pushing effectively. I would love to see some mid--nah, fuck it. Make the shit late game, I don't care. Just some form of anti-ground static defense structure.
Bunker Ideas Make the neosteel frame upgrade put an AG-only turret on the bunker. Come on, guys. Or, maybe the neosteel frame bunker gives Turrets a transformation ability, so they can transform into an AG-mode (kinda like entering and exiting siege mode, or defender mode, or hellbat mode).
I don't think any buff or modification to Terran's static defense should be accessible during the bunker-rush stage of the game though. Cheese like that is really more of a Protoss thing ; )
Really interesting and smart post I really hope David Kim will read this.
We just wanted to quickly update you guys on a few things before the weekend:
1. We agree with your feedback on PvT.
2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
3. We're currently aiming for next week to release the balance test map.
4. We would love to get everyone's help in aggressively testing these changes so that we can quickly turn around a balance update as early as the week after next.
Thank you for keeping the discussions really focused on the most critical topics this week!
The tank change is too short sighted. Yes it will make mech stronger in TvT but at the expense of potentially breaking TvZ due to the existence of the ravager and actually nerfing terran in TvP, which just boggles the mind.
We just wanted to quickly update you guys on a few things before the weekend:
2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
FIXED IT:
2. We realized we forgot to nerf Terran. *slaps forehead* Silly us! So, seeing as how many in the community think Tanks might need some love, we decided to nerf them extremely hard. We're hoping this helps with the only balanced matchup Terran has, TvT. See, since we love micro so much, we decided we wanted to double, triple--even quadruple!--the numbers of clicks required to not get utterly pwnd by bile, disruptors, and anything else targeting the tanks. Thanks for your solid suggestion on this.
On a more serious note. If this is the route we're taking, Blizzard, please consider the following:
(1) Nerf firing time after landing (while still sieged) to match the time it takes to siege. (2) Make it so a tank picked up in siege mode, unsieges in the medivac (hiding it) but then automatically sieges when you drop it.
Yes, doom drops suck in TvT, but losing your tanks from free in TvZ and TvP sucks a lot worse. And if this is the route we're going, medivac micro is already pretty intense. Let's not add two clicks for every dropped tank. The micro burden will be too high.
Siege Tank change was always a good idea. It isn't ONLY a nerf. It's a buff if you use them defensively, since one Medivac can pick up 2 Sieged Tanks, if getting targeted by Corrosive Bile.
Now they just need to do non-stackable Parasitic Bomb, something that the community have also been suggesting for a God awful long time.. and Chrono Boost, fix Chrono Boost.. PLX Kim
Please do not remove siege pick up, that was one of the few things that made TvZ and TvP actually playable, now when that is gone, tanks are once again a real drag in your army and you cant take any engagements.
If siege pick up is removed, tanks damage has to be buffed considerably.
Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it.
Although stats always need to be investigated in their particular context, these ones are pretty eye opening:
"The top leagues are fairly Zerg heavy as they used to be in HotS, but GM has evened out quite a bit last 2 weeks.
Zerg outnumber Protoss by 12.4% in GM, 43.3% in Masters, 66.9% in Diamond, 51.9% in Platinum, 16.4% in Gold and Protoss outnumber Zerg by 23.7% in Silver and 63.9% in Bronze.
Protoss outnumbers Terrans by 8.5% in GM, Terran outnumber Protoss by 34.7% in Masters, 31.6% in Diamond, 19.5% in Platinum, and Protoss outnumber Terran by 3.2% in Gold, 23.5% in silver, and 22% in Bronze.
Zergs outnumber Terrans by 22% in GM, 6.4% in Masters, 26.9% in Diamond, 27.1% in Platinum, 20.1% in Gold, 0.1% in Silver and Terran outnumber Zergs by 34.3% in Bronze."
Lately I played a lot of random, so I am not really interested in flaming against any race. The stats and my game experience so far show however, that Zerg is really the strongest race by far. Unlike other players, I do not see the problem in a specific unit, but more in the general design. When I am Zerg, I simply max, waste my army, check what units are left for the opponent and build instantly the counter army (when I have the bank to do so). Terran and Protoss needs a ton of production to keep up, having higher infrastrucurecost on a much weaker economy. PvT to me looks pretty even, although there are a lot more terrans in Master and Diamand (guess because tank, liberator, marine all ins maybe?). The matchup that needs to be changed the most is PvZ in my eyes. If adepts will be nerfed, Protoss won't be better in PvZ. With photon overcharge nerf, protoss will have a harder time to hold the extremly effective ravager pushes as well. And I don't think that the morphing time change will impact that a lot. In my eyes, blizzard has two options: Either nerf zerg quite heavily (maybe a cap for larvae? always wonders why did never happens, especially with their low structure cost compared to terrans...) or, what is liked by players the most, buff the other races slightly. Protoss really needs a strong counter against air. Still. It is actually silly, that terran and zerg have bother better anti-air turrets AND both have very effective air AOE (Thor, liberators, viper, infestor...). Protoss only AOE vs air is storm. And Storm is a very poor tool against already a semi-good zerg. First of all, a storm never kills mutalisks, justs hurts them. So mutas just fly away, heal, comeback. Also, Hight templars are way too immobile to deal with mutalisks. I think when Protoss gets a unit that actually deals effectivly with anti air, PvZ will be more even. Also, with the new ravager timings, it might be very balanced indeed. In the lategame, most games are lost for toss because zerg can simply win by changing the army composition within 30 seconds from full ground to full air. Buffing anti air of toss forces zerg to have a more versitile army that they have right now. Phoenixes can counter Mutalisks quite hard with the range upgrade, but a wasted supply if a zerg goes for vipers or corrupters. When a toss scouts the spire, they are in a very weird position. In order to deal with mutalisks, they need at least 2 stargates and a lot of pheonixes. If the zerg just fakes mutas, Protoss players are basically lost... and after a big fight, when there are a lot of pheonixes left, you have a ton of units that cannot deal with the obvious switch into ultralisks. Not sure what to do about terrans actually. I think buffs will to too strong for TvP, an Adept nerf (-1 attack) sounds reasonable, but I fear also, that terran all ins with marines, tanks and liberators might become too strong. Never lost with that all in so far... Maybe blizz should really just watch the next PvTs in the pro leagues and decide. I think taking away the adept as the backbone of protoss armies would be a poor choice, cause it finally gives Protoss players a chance to play PvT without Colossi or mass stalkers. Also, Vikings deal pretty ok with warp prisms, so do marauders with adepts. So the infamous adpet drops are not really that much of a problem. I cannot remember any adept drop that had been as effective that a simple medivac drop with marines. And with the nerf of photon overcharge, terran finally will be able to drop like crazy again and we should see a ton of fun and fast pace games in PvT in the future. So I would not nerf the Adept and anger all Protoss players, if maybe the photon overcharge change already evens the balance in terms of dropping abilities. Seriously: 8 marines compared to 4 adepts in your mineral line? I think my fellow terrans agree that they all favour marines in terms of DPS : )
We just wanted to quickly update you guys on a few things before the weekend:
1. We agree with your feedback on PvT.
2. Siege tanks going back to tank mode when picked up by Medivacs does seem to be a solid suggestion. We agree with you that Siege Tanks gaining mobility did take away from what the unit is by design, and also agree that this change played the biggest part in making mech not viable in TvT. We can definitely add this to the next balance test map.
3. We're currently aiming for next week to release the balance test map.
4. We would love to get everyone's help in aggressively testing these changes so that we can quickly turn around a balance update as early as the week after next.
Thank you for keeping the discussions really focused on the most critical topics this week!
I would like to reiterate how insane it feels to nerf Terran right now, and to specifically nerf the tank, again.
What is particularly strange, is that this nerf appears to be geared towards a particular playstyle in TvT, lol. Yeah, TvT is an awesome matchup, and the increased chances of doomdrops really sucks, but my goodness, nerfing the tank again is a horrible idea because of how necessary their burst damage is in TvZ and TvP. SOLUTIONS TO DOOM DROPS? (1) Move the Hi-Sec Auto-Tracking Upgrade to the Command Center (move all three of those upgrades to the CC, really). The upgrade enhances the turret like normal, but also reduces its cost. Terrans need a lot of turrets. This may have effects on particularly turtle-like playstyles, but right now the propensity for the doom drop in TvT already promotes extreme defense.
(2) Change the Sensor Tower to show a highlight of the unit, like when units are behind buildings and structures.
(3) Medivac Speed Boost is disabled when a tank is in cargo. I dislike this one though, because it is so necessary in the other matchups.
(4) Allow neosteel frame upgrades to outfit bunkers with an anti-ground attack turret. This, in combination with turrets, would diminish the power of doom drops in TvT.
On January 16 2016 15:23 p68 wrote: Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it.
Well yeah of course its a nerf to siege tanks. You are making them more immobile again, like they originally used to be. This being said, the tank can still be emergency picked up much quicker than before.
The issue however is that the medivac pick up and drop off of sieged tanks really limits their design space as well so its impossible to buff them.
But honestly I dont think that tanks see play in TvP or TvZ because they can be picked up en masse and dropped off again en masse. So i really dont think it will impact TvP or TvZ that much. Its a much bigger change for the mirror match up.
The real elephant in the room is the way in which protoss remains a "hit a timing before they get to their late game" race. Then Protoss finds a very strong timing and will lose that tool dropping them into a weak spot, yet again.
Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point
I think they want to keep the Warp Prism strength, since we haven't seen a lot of other harassing through the Warp Prism other than Adepts and Zealot/DT late game.
On January 16 2016 15:23 p68 wrote: Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it.
The issue however is that the medivac pick up and drop off of sieged tanks really limits their design space as well so its impossible to buff them.
But honestly I dont think that tanks see play in TvP or TvZ because they can be picked up en masse and dropped off again en masse. So i really dont think it will impact TvP or TvZ that much. Its a much bigger change for the mirror match up.
The existence of the ravager, adept, and disruptor all make siege tank immobility too big of a liability. You'd have to buff siege tank damage so much that they're practically unassailable to undo the damage done by the existence of those units.
On January 16 2016 15:23 p68 wrote: Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it.
Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point
It's a straight up unit power disparity problem. It's not just about the harass. I think the last sentence is a disingenuous description of lotv TvP as well.
On January 15 2016 21:40 GreenHealing wrote: When I first heard about Adepts, I immediately knew they would be fucking broken. Protoss already had gimmicky shit that opponent could do nothing about it, and then they got that unit that can just move around invulnerably.
Did this really come as a surprise for anyone?
No it's what everybody told them right from the beginning.
Micro should be based on stats and movement and carefully designing unit relations, not on abilities.
Invulnerability should not be in the game.
Units shouldn't be able to move through obstacles.
Over and over again this was reiterated. But then blizzard made a clever PR move, introduced weekly feedback threads and suddenly if you gave negative feedback you were a hater and trying to kill the game.
apparently, i destroyed Act of Aggression due to my negative comments. maybe i should contact Blizzard and negotiate a salaried position in return for remaining positive about the game.
the game won't be balanced for another year or so. the only way to balance it is to accept the fact that its not balanced right now. if you can't have fun playing an unbalanced game you should avoid any racially diverse RTS that has been out less than 6 months.
i'm a diamond random player whose best race is zerg... i'm having fun.
On January 16 2016 15:23 p68 wrote: Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it.
...
Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point
I watched the infamous bomber vs seed series twice and I really don't see how nerfeing the warp prism could be relevant as a first move. The adept is the core of the issue.
It would be far more reasonnable imho to nerf the adept and then see how the game evolves and tune the WP accordingly.
On January 16 2016 15:23 p68 wrote: Tankivacs are the only thing keeping siege tanks viable in TvP and arguably TvZ as well. This is a straight nerf to siege tanks, no matter how you spin it.
...
Im not saying adepts PvT aren't showing some problems atm with the current builds but I wonder if they could just nerf warp prisms in some way instead and see if that pushes the timing back enough for terran to figure out a way to hold off the adept play. I really just with protoss was less about discovering all or nothing timings at this point
I watched the infamous bomber vs seed series twice and I really don't see how nerfeing the warp prism could be relevant as a first move. The adept is the core of the issue.
It would be far more reasonnable imho to nerf the adept and then see how the game evolves and tune the WP accordingly.
Correct. The Adept is too good. This is very clear. They have no vulnerabilities for (a) how early they come out, and (b) how easily the passive +DPS upgrade comes out when rushed. They are tanky, mobile, have a free special ability, are ranged, have high DPS, and are absurdly cheap.
With all that being said, the WP simply removes any potential possibility of defending a well-executed attack on certain maps, where we saw in the Seed match, some maps don't even require the WP. It's a single-unit doom drop machine that provides a passive Blink upgrade to nearby ground units -- and tankivacs are might get nerfed? Smh ...
I like Tanks the way they are with the pickup ... it makes the game interesting. They were too weak before, this is a good way to strengthen them. It isn't against the design it's just a new design, ... and frankly as a Zerg player I do not know how Terran is going to beat me if you remove tank pickup. I really don't. Gota be honest. Tanks could always be loaded up, they're just a bit stronger now... Let people get used to it. You will have to screw up a host of other things which make this game interesting after you nerf tanks - ultra armor, marauder double shot, corrosive bile strength. If you are worried about TvT find some other way to counter it, don't remove it due to the mirror.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
