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The TurtleToss

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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The TurtleToss

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics byJuliet
December 25th, 2015 16:08 GMT
IntroductionEarly gameThe BuildMid GameLate Game
Terran compositions

Vikings/LiberatorsBC/RavenGhostsBio balls
AppendixReplays




Introduction

Author: Theo


With the new overcharge, the possibility of using static defenses as Protoss has gotten to a new level. By using an early forge and well placed pylons & photon cannons, you can have strong DPS in small locations for significantly less cost as opposed to only photon cannons as we would see in Heart of the Swarm.

It is through this concept that this build allows you to mass-produce disruptors. A unit whose splash damage exceeds that even of psionic storm and is not energy-based. By using photon cannons and pylons to secure defensive positions, you then allow your disruptors to effectively “siege” these static-defense fronts from a defensive position.

The build completely negates from the use of warp gate, meaning you will stay on only one gateway while spending almost all of your minerals on pylons and cannons while teching into disruptors. On the air side we use oracles and phoenix for scouting, revelation and anti-air/anti-drops.

Early Game




The goal is to get two oracles for map vision and scouting, three adepts for safety against early pushes plus a sentry for guardian shield. With this you can take a third base versus standard Terran builds. Once you take the third base, you transition into double robotics facility disruptor production with constant phoenix production.

The MSC and/or adept and oracle must carefully scout for 1 base allins and timings. It is crucial you do not take a third too fast and you may need to rush phoenixes faster than the second oracle versus some medivac/cyclone timings.

The Build



  • 14 pylon
  • 16 gate
  • 16 assimilator
  • 19 nexus
  • 21 cybernetics core
  • 21 assimilator
  • 22 pylon
  • @ 100% cybernetics core, mothership core
  • @ 100% gateway, adept
  • 27 stargate
  • 29 2nd adept
  • 35 3rd pylon
  • 37 3rd adept
  • @ 100% stargate, oracle
  • @ 100% 3rd adept. start sentry
  • @ 3:30 3rd gas on natural
  • @ 4:00 2nd oracle (defend widow mine drops / cyclone and map control.)
  • @ 4.40: robotics facility
  • @ 5:00: take 3rd base
  • @ 100% 2nd oracle, start constant phoenix production
  • @ 100% robotics facility, make robo bay


Research warpgate right away, even though you’re not massing gateways later in the game. This will be crucial for holding any big pressure pushes in the early game, as a single adept can make the difference in holding or losing. This will leave only the air upgrades on your cybernetics core to research, which we will need in the later stages of the game.

A heavy emphasis should be placed on scouting. An early third is crucial in this build, and you’ll need to know exactly what kind of aggression is coming your way when. Once your adept and mothership core finish, you can use either to scout the Terran base, while keeping the other at home to defend a reaper. Once your first oracle finishes, immediately send it to scout the Terran. Things you should be looking for are: third command center, addons on production facilities, and gas count. If there is a third command center in production, you are safe to take your own third base. If there is a tech lab on the factory, you can expect a cyclone or siege tank push with medivacs and marines. If there is no addon on the factory and a starport, it’s probably a widow mine drop.

Delaying your third base is fine as long as you defend the first push. Be mindful of where you position your first few pylons; the first one should be local to your nexus, and the ensuing ones should be around your second nexus. Use these as leverage points to defend the pushes. Once you’ve successfully defended the push, drop your third base and transition into the mid game.



[image loading]

Going into this fight, the unit counts were 14 marines, 2 siege tanks and a liberator against 4 adepts, 2 oracles, 1 phoenix and a MSC. While this does sound scary for the Protoss player, this unit mixture can hold very well against almost all compositions that Terran can throw at them at this stage. The adepts can get onto the siege tanks, the oracles will take care of the marines, and the phoenix will handle the air units. Even while making this hold, a third base was going down for the Protoss player.




Mid Game




Once your third base is done, you may begin setting up pylons and photon cannons in walls, arcing in between your bases. Ideally you don’t want any creases in your walls; one continuous wall in between your natural and third base with no gaps is what you’re looking for. Make sure your forge is done by the time your third base is so that you can immediately start setting up cannons.



[image loading]

an example of a pylon/cannon wall at the third. It’s nigh impossible to sneak into the natural base thourgh this, as there are multiple cannons, and many pylons ready for overcharge. Already, we see a fourth base going down just after 7:30, and the fleet beacon/stargate transition into the late game.



Assuming you have successfully established a third base and you have scouted your opponent with the oracles, try to determine what mid game composition your opponent is going for. Is he starting liberator production? Is he going heavy on the bio? This information will impact your decision to go for an earlier or later double robo. At low to moderate numbers, phoenix trade well with liberators, so if they are massing them early it’s never a bad idea to equally build up a high phoenix count. If they are dropping additional barracks and massing up a bio army, double robo disruptor production should start at the earliest convenience to protect your shell.

Your +1 air upgrades should start as soon as you feel safe enough and preferably before the 5:00 mark. Then you will resume the upgrades as Fleet Beacon finishes as a response to Terran air transition.

When Terran do their 7-10 minute drops and timing attacks, make sure you split your disruptors into multiple locations to defend the attacks. Vision here across the map is key to knowing exactly where to place your units. With good vision you can use your phoenix to intercept any drops, while leaving your disruptors on the ground attack paths. Having two oracles throughout the game is crucial in the upkeep of revelation on the mobile terran army. They also give you the option to spread out stasis wards in potential drop paths, giving you an extra outlet for vision. Should you lose any oracles, reproduce them back up to the two count. Again, the goal is to stay turtle until you have your ideal army of disruptor/mass air. You shouldn’t really be looking to attack unless the Terran makes a big misstep in micro and loses a big chunk of their army to disruptor shots.



[image loading]

another example of the cannon walls you can create. There is absolutely no way a ground army will be able to bust through this; there are many cannons to soak up damage, funnel units and take aggro, and the disruptors hiding behind them can potentially take out huge clumps of army. It’s too risky to fight head on into this set up.


For the most part, oracles and phoenix will handle map vision, but having 2 observers (one for the army, one for drops) can be very helpful in staying alive. With a relatively small ground army, you’ll need pefect positioning on the handful of gateway units you have, and your disruptors. Pay very close attention to the minimap as this is your source of information; the Terran player likely has a larger army than you, and if you have your units out of position for the slightest moment, they can capitalize on your error.



[image loading]

Map vision after establishing the fourth. There are scattered units on the left side spotting for drops and army movement, and a revelation on the right hand side keeping an eye on the main army movement. Disruptors are postered behind cannons located at the third base and the fourth, while huge cannon walls protect drops coming in from the left side.


One thing you might notice is you’re floating a lot of minerals. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing; drop more cannons and pylons. Eventually you’ll want to be taking a fourth base, so you’ll need to be setting up even more cannons and pylons, extending your wall to that location. Once you get into the supply counts, this is the time to transition into more air play. Continue with the air upgrades, and add a fleet beacon and more stargates.



Late game




Some maps won’t allow you to have a continuous wall extending to the fourth base. Not to worry, simply place pylons and cannons at the location anyways, and try to set up a funnel system guiding units outwards. The latest you want to get your fourth base is 14:00; this is the time when your main base is running dry.

Unless your Terran opponent keeps fighting you with bio and medivacs, you will not necessarily need a transition to air as long as your disruptor/phoenix production is on point. Be careful not to overproduce disruptors however, as you’ll want to keep pace with an air transition if the Terran is going for one. There are a few different end-game compositions that they can go for, let’s look at them:



Viking and/or viking/liberator



There is not a definitive composition that you must use, but for each of these Terran compositions there are some rules.

The general composition versus viking/liberator is 6+ tempest, 3+ carriers, 3-4 oracles, photon cannons, and 4+ templars for storm. Do NOT use phoenixes or voidrays against this army. You may be forced to sacrifice some or all disruptors to get more supply.

In general versus Terran air, you must have tempest. You are going to rely on sieging the Terran rather than a straight-up fight. Any prefered number of tempest is good, just make sure you have more than 6 so you can one-shot vikings. If you are in doubt, it is never bad to make more tempests. If you stick with 6 tempests, the rest of the supply can go into carriers. If they have a lot of liberators (10+), do NOT build more than 3-4 carriers.

The next thing is to get storm. Vikings will beat tempests unless you have storm, and these templars needs to be protected from siege tanks and/or ghosts. Be sure to engage carefully and have oracles to revelate his army and/or observers to detect ghosts as you would not like to get emp´ed.

If the Terran is literally only building vikings, then the carrier is an extremely effective choice against them.

Be careful with rushing into tempests too fast versus this composition. Storm will work much better against these units, so you will want to go storm before too many tempest against this composition.

Battlecruiser and/or raven



The general composition against battlecruiser/raven is either:

Mass tempest with only a few storms (or feedback for PDD and battlecruiser), or 10-15 tempests with a few phoenixes to soak up the PDD energy. You may be forced to sacrifice some or all disruptors to get more supply.

When playing against ravens, the rules of engagement are based around the PDD and how you can drain their energy as fast as possible. Feedback is good, but many projectiles from phoenix and/or tempest is good too. If you are not able to beat the Terran army straight up, be sure to sit near static defences.


Battlecruisers may use tactical jump to move around your army or escape. Generally, you’ll want to be aggressive with your army against this to ensure you can do counter damage if he jumps. If there are ravens to support the BCs, try to avoid fighting in PDDs and wait them out.

Ghosts



The nuke from ghosts and, of course, EMP, serves as a great threat to your templars and static defense positions. You must be on point with your map control to prevent taking too much damage from nukes, including but not limited to; revelation, observers and cannon detection.

A good response to nuke is to make more oracles. This way you can constantly keep ghosts detected and even have excess energy on oracles to snipe them. Alternatively you can use phoenixes or disruptors to kill ghosts if they are protected by PDD.

Bio late game



If your opponent insists on playing a very macro-heavy bio-style against you, it is absolutely imperative that you do not sacrifice any of your disruptors, and you must keep up with the Terran composition to know when to keep producing disruptors. You may need as many as possible to deal with bio, especially when the game is spread more thin.

Against bio-only, you’ll want to keep at least 12 disruptors alive and make sure you've started teching to carriers and tempest. If you have a lot of money, then carriers. If not, then tempests + cannons. Make sure you always prefer disruptor production over air production after fights.

It is also very important you take as little damage as possible. The more static defenses and units you lose, the more vulnerable you will be. Your job is to keep every single hole in your base sealed as you do not have mobility the same way terran does.



[image loading]

The Terran player got impatient, and decided to attack while the phoenix were out of position. This did not end well as multiple disruptor shots obliterated the ground based composition they were going for. Behind the disruptors are tempests, and another wall of cannons and pylons supported by a mothership core.




It’s questionable whether you want to transition into gateway units from here, but with a lack of forge upgrades, this isn’t advised. You can still tech into storm and a dark shrine however, as both of these options are great for harassment and general army support. Aim to have storm done for the 17:00 mark. Including high templar in your army gets heavy on the control, but can be crucial in dealing with mass-air units, and bio heavy armies.

The late game engagements will mainly take place with tempests shooting Terran units from afar while protecting the high templar and disruptors. With good micro and constant envisions, you should be more efficient with your tempests, slowly chipping away their unit count. Be mindful of drops, as they are a constant threat throughout the game. Having phoenix at this stage of the game can still be helpful, and can be used to counter the drops. You can keep cannons at each of your bases to also defend against drops.


Appendix



This is a difficult-to-execute build that requires a lot of attention and individual unit-type micro, but when executed properly, it is truly capable of giving you wins without a single warp-in from the warp-gate. The interesting mixture between the static defense from photon cannons and pylons plus the AoE/siegeing capabilities from disruptor, storm, phoenix and tempest, you will force an extremely intense game for the Terran player as both of you will struggle with a variety of micro and macro.

Replays



Theo vs Dayshi on Ulrena

Theo vs loppelo on Prion Terraces

Theo vs Zheka on Prion Terraces

Theo vs IlIllIlIIIlI on Orbital Shipyard

Theo vs SnowBell on Dusk Towers



Brought to you by the TL Strategy Team
Writer: Theo
Graphics: Juliet
Editors: Jer99
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TL+ Member
Purce
Profile Joined January 2013
Italy31 Posts
December 25 2015 16:28 GMT
#2
Dear Theo, why do you want to ruin the game.
Abuse with adepts like everybody.

Sincerly, everybody.

P.S.: Now i want a guide for turtle ZvZ (lurkers, spores etc.)
Weltall
Profile Joined December 2015
Italy83 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-25 16:35:31
December 25 2015 16:30 GMT
#3
god bless theo :D
still waiting for a guide on pvz!
corydoras
Profile Joined November 2013
161 Posts
December 25 2015 16:47 GMT
#4
I just took a look at the screenshots and this feels like Christma...err..this feels like being 16 again and playing Brood War with my friends - these are my freaking cannon walls that I was building back then!

Thanks :D
Adun toridas!
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8224 Posts
December 25 2015 16:55 GMT
#5
Another dirty Protoss build. Why don't we ever get Terran builds?!
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
December 25 2015 16:59 GMT
#6
On December 26 2015 01:55 geokilla wrote:
Another dirty Protoss build. Why don't we ever get Terran builds?!

They aren't as in depth, but there are many here
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
The_Masked_Shrimp
Profile Joined February 2012
425 Posts
December 25 2015 17:03 GMT
#7
what have you done ?! :O
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3340 Posts
December 25 2015 17:11 GMT
#8
These sort of builds are really cool and while it might be the strongest style atm, it has potential to become the strongest style of all in a meta game for a later time.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
looknohands119
Profile Joined March 2010
United States815 Posts
December 25 2015 17:11 GMT
#9
On December 26 2015 01:59 Jer99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2015 01:55 geokilla wrote:
Another dirty Protoss build. Why don't we ever get Terran builds?!

They aren't as in depth, but there are many here


I'd definitely love to still see a Terran build guide from you guys like this one. Preferably a few, actually.
"The kingdom of the heavens is buried treasure. Would you sell yourself to buy the one you've found?" - Jon Foreman ('Your Love Is Strong' - Spring EP)
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-25 17:34:02
December 25 2015 17:28 GMT
#10
This is actually a common pvz build as of a couple of weeks to a month ago, you mass tempest and use the revelation ability to push your opponent back and replace fallen creep with pylons and mass cannons. I saw it first appear on the EU servers. The concept was that protoss cannot handle a straight up fight against a zerg player without static defense, so instead they would put static defense down everywhere and spend the gas on the expensive units like tempest, and high templar. You don't build as many disruptors, only to hold off the mid game, late game if you keep some disruptors alive you switch over to just tempest and templar and use revelation to line up feedbacks and tempest snipes. It also prevented the common crackling runby's because you had cannons literally everywhere. Dark shrine gets added late game too to deny any nydus attempts.

You can use the mass zealot immortal archon build, or a pheonix opener. If you are using the zealot / immortal / archon timing then when you throw down the second robitics and support bay you would then add 2 additional stargates as well. The reason is because at that point the disruptors are to counter the lurkers, and the zealots eventually get swapped out for more archons and immortals anyway you then spend the resources on cannons and instead
Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
December 25 2015 17:42 GMT
#11
On December 26 2015 01:55 geokilla wrote:
Another dirty Protoss build. Why don't we ever get Terran builds?!

The concept is still the same across races
Terran players already defend with the liberator / widow mine combo, instead of cannons you can place missile turrets and siege tanks like in broodwar. Use ghosts for emp or snipes like a protoss would use high templar, The PF's provide better base defense because they can be repaired and are always active. When it gets to late game nukes are much more effective because there will be more area to work with.

If you are zerg, this is like hots ZvP but instead of the swarm hosts you mix in lurkers and use more gglords
Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
HelpMeGetBetter
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States763 Posts
December 25 2015 17:45 GMT
#12
Is this only for PvT?
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10666 Posts
December 25 2015 17:49 GMT
#13
This makes me want to switch to Protoss lol
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
halomonian
Profile Joined January 2012
Brazil255 Posts
December 25 2015 17:50 GMT
#14
oh theo...

Excuse me while I go throw up
thoughts in chaos | enjOy[dream]
Ppjack
Profile Joined March 2015
Belgium489 Posts
December 25 2015 18:19 GMT
#15
Hi Theo.
I hate you, sincerely.

A terran player :o)
<;o)
SplattedOne
Profile Joined May 2013
155 Posts
December 25 2015 18:24 GMT
#16
This sounds excruciating to play against, which probably means it's strong as hell.

Thanks for the guide!
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
December 25 2015 18:25 GMT
#17
On December 26 2015 02:42 DanceSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2015 01:55 geokilla wrote:
Another dirty Protoss build. Why don't we ever get Terran builds?!

The concept is still the same across races
Terran players already defend with the liberator / widow mine combo, instead of cannons you can place missile turrets and siege tanks like in broodwar. Use ghosts for emp or snipes like a protoss would use high templar, The PF's provide better base defense because they can be repaired and are always active. When it gets to late game nukes are much more effective because there will be more area to work with.

If you are zerg, this is like hots ZvP but instead of the swarm hosts you mix in lurkers and use more gglords

It only really works for protoss because 200/200 airtoss >>>airterran/airzerg
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
December 25 2015 20:30 GMT
#18
where are the replays where you lose with it?
it's good to know where you can go wrong, or how to beat it.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
baabaa
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada29 Posts
December 25 2015 20:32 GMT
#19
Don't worry, Seeing builds like this won't make Blizzard notice how broken the game currently is any more than they already have, which is not at all. Sure didn't notice it in the first two expansions and now that it is worse they will just pretend more that broken strats like this don't exist (or they will say things like "we've noticed recently that Protoss players are using cannons and pylon overcharge a bit. We'll keep on eye on things and see whether any committees need to be struck to decide if any balance test maps should be done that have nothing to do with this issue before ignoring it until it doesn't go away."

aren't there already enough diamond / master protoss players with 50 APM?

User was temp banned for this post.
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-25 20:43:31
December 25 2015 20:41 GMT
#20
On December 26 2015 03:25 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2015 02:42 DanceSC wrote:
On December 26 2015 01:55 geokilla wrote:
Another dirty Protoss build. Why don't we ever get Terran builds?!

The concept is still the same across races
Terran players already defend with the liberator / widow mine combo, instead of cannons you can place missile turrets and siege tanks like in broodwar. Use ghosts for emp or snipes like a protoss would use high templar, The PF's provide better base defense because they can be repaired and are always active. When it gets to late game nukes are much more effective because there will be more area to work with.

If you are zerg, this is like hots ZvP but instead of the swarm hosts you mix in lurkers and use more gglords

It only really works for protoss because 200/200 airtoss >>>airterran/airzerg


Youd think that, but the fact is that terran can actually destroy a carrier army in a direct engagement with far less investment, while no other race can accomplish that.

The problem then remains with Tempest, and disruptors - but especially on bigger maps, taking a few bases more than a protoss on tempests, shouldnt be an issue. Ravens are fairly good against tempest, so are super lategame nukes and ghosts.

Im pretty sure this is something that can be figured out. Perhaps going to 100 harvesters, throwing down 25 barracks, on 6 bases. Cannons tend to be pretty bad offensively.
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