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I've been reading a lot about mech viability in LotV and what people think Terran needs to make it work. Wanted to share my views as I strongly disagree with what most people are saying (that Terran needs more anti-air from the factory).
I think there are a few major issues that prevent mech from working and I’ll go through them by matchup:
TvZ: Roach/Ravager/Hydra is a good composition against mech. In HotS this kind of composition had a timer. It wasn’t good forever because Terran in HotS had the ability to turtle to a really strong mech army off 3 bases and attack before a transition into anything that could beat it. This is no longer possible for a few reasons.
-Ravagers pressure the Terran player extremely early and force a very specific tech response, which delays expansions significantly
-Bases run out of money much faster, which makes turtling in general less viable
-Minerals are relatively easier to gather than gas, which makes it supremely easy for a Zerg to take a lot of bases vs. a defensively positioned Terran.
-Vipers: with the addition of parasitic bomb, the Viper has basically become an anti mech god mode unit. Think about it:
Blinding cloud neutralizes Tanks/Thors.
Parasitic bomb annihilates Vipers/Liberators/Ravens.
Abduct on any high priority targets that need to be focus fired.
Consume for basically endless mana.
But more importantly, the Viper now addresses all the weaknesses of this Lair tech composition that wasn’t viable forever. AND should the Terran defend against this, Vipers also destroy the only available counter to the inevitable Brood Lord transition. Brood Lords now have 10 range, as well, which means Vikings need to get closer to the Zerg to engage and Ghosts will have more difficulty taking out Vipers.
TL,DR; The Viper’s abilities synergize way too well against mech.
Possible solution: move some of the Viper’s abilities to the Infestor or simply just remove parasitic bomb altogether. Fungal growth was used to handle clumped up air units in HotS. Maybe give Fungal a slight buff and remove PB.
TvT
Much better Terrans than me (T is my off race :/ ) have already addressed this but there are three important points:
-Economy changes favor mineral units (marines) over gas units (mech)
-With Tank drops being a thing, the bio player has BOTH mobility AND firepower. What’s the point of making Tanks and Thors when you can make Marines and Tanks? You literally never have to fight in a place you don’t want to. Iaguz and Avilo I think commented on this and I agree.
-Liberators. Bio + Liberators is kind of silly. Against anyone who tries to go mech a bio player can just simply add Liberators and come out ahead. Bio + Liberators / Sky trumps pure mech any day, and it requires no new infrastructure (reactored Starport is already out…).
Proposed solution: remove sieged tank pickups. I think this was also Avilo’s solution. But you’d have to do something about Ravagers. About Liberators, I'm not sure. A nerf impacts the other matchups too much. Maybe Cyclones can deal with it given the right tweaks?
TvP
ECONOMY.
Terrans I belive have everything they need in this matchup to go mech. The end game units are there. Ghosts/Liberators/Battlecruisers/Thors/Tanks, whatever… they have it. It’s possible. The problem is that Protoss harass options become too strong IN THIS ECONOMY for a meching Terran to deal with. Turtling has become too hard, and Protoss is able to exploit that.
Any time a Terran tries to mech against me I take as many bases as I want, defend them with basically no units since Photon Overcharge is strong and my opponent won’t be moving out (in fear of a Warp Prism counter attack), and go straight to mass Tempest + Storm.
The Tempest/Storm/Archon/Blink ball becomes too big too fast for any Terran to handle, in my experience.
Proposed solution: honestly, I don’t know. Maybe make some of the maps a little more Turtle friendly, but this will only empower Zerg and possibly break ZvP.
TL,DR; Terran doesn’t need anti air from the factory to make mech work. Terran needs (1) A viper nerf (2) Siege tank pickup to not exist (3) more “mech friendly” maps and economy.
Please let me know what you think. If you disagree please let me know why rather than just flaming. Blizzard reads these forums… if we can suggest good ideas they might implement them.
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i wonder how well the viper would do if terran had some kind of anti caster unit, or perhaps some long ranged anti air to prevent it from getting close
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On December 08 2015 01:11 johax wrote:
i wonder how well the viper would do if terran had some kind of anti caster unit, or perhaps some long ranged anti air to prevent it from getting close
Move Parasitic bomb to the Infestor (but make it require research) and you make Ghost play against it possible. They can snipe/EMP them much more easily than the Viper which is a nimble air unit.
Reduce the range on these abilities so they have to come closer to the Terran. I'd like to see Ghosts used against Infestor/Viper like they're used against HT.
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I like Blinding Cloud. It forces Terran to spread the Tanks and that makes for better looking games IMO. Problem is, Tanks suck hardcore when you don't have 90% of them shooting at the same time. Solution: buff tanks 
If the eco is really a big problem for mech, then you can just buff some units or reduce their cost, nothing to complicated.
I agree with the better maps and no more siege pick up.
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TvZ. Basically the problem is the Viper's PB. It was bad enough with blinding cloud affecting tanks and thors but at least you could build Vikings to counter them and often the interaction was quite interesting. Now Vipers counter their counter - Blizz stupidity at its finest.
Siege tank pick up for retreat I like and would be OK if the tank unsieged (obviously then you can pick up two). Any nerfs to Liberator would return us to ZParcraft - not sure what can be done here that does not affect TvP&Z.
TvP. Protoss have incredibly strong harassment options and incredibly strong get-out-of-jail defensive options. As you say, you can defend with zero units (I have). I would like to retract my earlier statement - this is Blizz stupidity at its finest. A PO nerf (without a compensating buff FFS) might keep the Protoss more honest.
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After playing a bunch of games, i have to say that mech kinda works in TvZ and TvT. You just have to make other combinations of units, rather then hots. For example, if zerg goes vipers, it doesn't mean you need to have many vikings/liberators, e.t.c. But i absolutely can't understand how it can work in TvP. I feel so far behind in every aspect of game. Doesn't matter what protoss does - it works superb.
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On December 08 2015 01:35 DeadByDawn wrote:
TvZ. Basically the problem is the Viper's PB. It was bad enough with blinding cloud affecting tanks and thors but at least you could build Vikings to counter them and often the interaction was quite interesting. Now Vipers counter their counter - Blizz stupidity at its finest.
Siege tank pick up for retreat I like and would be OK if the tank unsieged (obviously then you can pick up two). Any nerfs to Liberator would return us to ZParcraft - not sure what can be done here that does not affect TvP&Z.
TvP. Protoss have incredibly strong harassment options and incredibly strong get-out-of-jail defensive options. As you say, you can defend with zero units (I have). I would like to retract my earlier statement - this is Blizz stupidity at its finest. A PO nerf (without a compensating buff FFS) might keep the Protoss more honest.
With no compensating buff to a PO nerf Zerg fucks us even more mate, 
Really, fuck Zerg haha.
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Can't blizzard simply remove the tank medivac mechanic in tvt only? The whole premisse of *global balance* is like shooting yourself in the foot to begin with.
If they would simply balance things for a specific matchup they could make the game a lot more diverse, and interesting, with a lot less effort. In fact, they could even make mech play viable instead of bio, for a period of time so people are forced to play mech for a couple of weeks/months just to test whether it's the fun way to go. without fucking with any other matchup
As for pvt: you could just remove the pylon overcharge stuff in pvt and voila, medivac drops are viable again, just put the overcharge back to the hots nexus variant if you feel it's needed.
Pylon overcharge can remain as it is in zvp because zerg's early aggresion is very strong atm
Honestly, I'm sorry i'm ranting like this on your post here, but honestly, why people aren't balancing this way is beyond me.
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I disagree with your points about tvt, if the meching player has vikings liberators wont become an issue, or your forcing him to play pure mech, and with bio + tanks he should never have enough gas for both tanks, medivacs and vikings/liberators
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I think Mech could be viable as the balance is right now in TvT and TvZ but in both matchups it is very easy to die to something stupid and you have to sit for a long time. But it's not that bad, even though the BL+Viper combo is somewhat stupid, but I have seen avilo use ghosts with great efficiency against them and then 1-2 EMPs can just insta-win just like a few PBs and you are out.
That absolutly doesn't mean there shouldn't be changes - to the Viper for example; to the tank for example - but in general I think in both matchups there could be ways to win games with it.
TvP it feels pretty hopeless. From Protoss 2 base timings through no viable harassment because of Pylon overcharge to insanly good tank counters + everything kind of can compete with low amounts of tanks to air compositions I wouldn't even know where to begin.
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On December 08 2015 01:46 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote:
Can't blizzard simply remove the tank medivac mechanic in tvt only? The whole premisse of *global balance* is like shooting yourself in the foot to begin with.
If they would simply balance things for a specific matchup they could make the game a lot more diverse, and interesting, with a lot less effort. In fact, they could even make mech play viable instead of bio, for a period of time so people are forced to play mech for a couple of weeks/months just to test whether it's the fun way to go. without fucking with any other matchup
As for pvt: you could just remove the pylon overcharge stuff in pvt and voila, medivac drops are viable again, just put the overcharge back to the hots nexus variant if you feel it's needed.
Pylon overcharge can remain as it is in zvp because zerg's early aggresion is very strong atm
Honestly, I'm sorry i'm ranting like this on your post here, but honestly, why people aren't balancing this way is beyond me.
Consistency. Players want a game that is consistent and for units to behave the same way all the time.
Also, the game is played in 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 by a lot of people and your solution would mess things up.
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On December 08 2015 01:37 Strelok wrote:
After playing a bunch of games, i have to say that mech kinda works in TvZ and TvT. You just have to make other combinations of units, rather then hots. For example, if zerg goes vipers, it doesn't mean you need to have many vikings/liberators, e.t.c. But i absolutely can't understand how it can work in TvP. I feel so far behind in every aspect of game. Doesn't matter what protoss does - it works superb.
Hi Strelok! I loved your stream, it would be cool to see how you mech in LotV! I know you retired but you could stream once in a while :D
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Aimed at dinomight's previous post(i'm too much of a digital dummy to reply properly)
Teamgames would just remain the same inbalanced mess that they are right now, and have always been(4 protoss vs 4 zerg has always been hilariously onsided). with rush fests dominating at the high master meta, I reckon even more so in Lotv than In earlier installments. And they could in fact, make things less messed up, by implementing all kinds of specific fixes for teamgames without being hindered by the 1v1 field with my solution as well.
But if you still dislike it, I don't see an issue with a global balance method for teamgames. Because in my opinion it has never had much balance to begin with.
As for consistency, well, how consistent is this game really? the meta is everchanging and all matchups usually have their own timings and units that are used. That wouldn't change if you remove or add specific units to a matchup. It's bascially the same as making a unit viable again through a balance patch because it wasn't used previously.
To rest my case: The matchup specific spore crawler vs bio damage practically killed muta's usage in zvz back then. That's kind of how I envision my *balancing* method to work, it was straight to the point, it got rid of the *so called problem* and didn't do any harm to any other matchup. How was this not the best/easiest way to deal with muta wars being a problem in zvz?
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I totally agree with you guys about the TvP Mech situation.
It doesn´t really matter what build or opening you are choosing, you are always way behind.
In TvT and TvZ I feel pretty confident and strong when I play Mech.
It doesn´t feel as wrong as against Protoss and you actually have good openers that prepare your Mech Gameplay.
My current level is @ Mid-Masters with a 60% winrate in TvT and against Zerg with 84%.
My winrate against Protoss is really bad tho. :/
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On December 08 2015 02:06 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote:
Aimed at dinomight's previous post(i'm too much of a digital dummy to reply properly)
Teamgames would just remain the same inbalanced mess that they are right now, and have always been(4 protoss vs 4 zerg has always been hilariously onsided). with rush fests dominating at the high master meta, I reckon even more so in Lotv than In earlier installments. And they could in fact, make things less messed up, by implementing all kinds of specific fixes for teamgames without being hindered by the 1v1 field with my solution as well.
But if you still dislike it, I don't see an issue with a global balance method for teamgames. Because in my opinion it has never had much balance to begin with.
As for consistency, well, how consistent is this game really? the meta is everchanging and all matchups usually have their own timings and units that are used. That wouldn't change if you remove or add specific units to a matchup. It's bascially the same as making a unit viable again through a balance patch because it wasn't used previously.
To rest my case: The matchup specific spore crawler vs bio damage practically killed muta's usage in zvz back then. That's kind of how I envision my *balancing* method to work, it was straight to the point, it got rid of the *so called problem* and didn't do any harm to any other matchup. How was this not the best/easiest way to deal with muta wars being a problem in zvz?
Why even make races then? If a banshee has different stats in TvT from what it has in TvZ then they are two different units and ergo you created a 4th race.
To your spore crawler argument, the +vs bio works against all units equally - the other races just don't have any - , EMP removes shields from all Zerg units. I'm not a fan of those solutions to begin with since they have no practical impact, but still in theory there are the same numbers on the unit everytime in every game.
A patch is a completely different thing. Because the unit is still the same afterwards in all matchups, it is just different from the previous game version.
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Mech won't be viable even in TvT. Mech has been successfully removed from the game as Blizzard wished. All is that left for us mech players either learn bio or move on to something else.
GG, it was a nice run.
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On December 08 2015 02:32 WrathSCII wrote:
Mech won't be viable even in TvT. Mech has been successfully removed from the game as Blizzard wished. All is that left for us mech players either learn bio or move on to something else.
GG, it was a nice run.
Why do you even bother with this post. Seriously it adds nothing to this chat.
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To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL.
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I think you can mech, but you can't turtle. And that's a good thing. Turtling shouldn't be in this game.
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On December 08 2015 00:43 DinoMight wrote:
Possible solution: move some of the Viper’s abilities to the Infestor or simply just remove parasitic bomb altogether. Fungal growth was used to handle clumped up air units in HotS. Maybe give Fungal a slight buff and remove PB.
How did fungal in the past work out vs mass air armies especially in hots?
Why do you want to go back? It was so much more worse than now. Boring games with mass infestors in which zerg defends until the opponent makes a mistake and flies his skyarmy close to infestors. The problem is that flying units are faster and mobile. Its close to impossible to catch air units with fungal if opponent plays carefully.
But with parasiteric bomb on vipers, both sides have options and counterplay. The only change it needs is a small nerf to the damage. Also parasiteric bomb is very easy to nerf or buff. Imagine you have to cast more parasiteric bombs to kill an air unit than they stack if you fly them carefully.
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EPT
