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On December 08 2015 06:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 06:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 08 2015 06:02 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 05:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 08 2015 05:32 DinoMight wrote:
Well, Blizzard is tasked with the impossible of making everyone happy.
The game can't be faster and require more micro but also be slower and positional at the same time. Give them a break. But you've just said that: TL,DR; Terran doesn’t need anti air from the factory to make mech work. Terran needs (1) A viper nerf (2) Siege tank pickup to not exist (3) more “mech friendly” maps and economy. So which one is it? 2 or 3 changes and some favorable maps or it's impossible? Or it shouldn't be viable anyway since it's irrational anyway? Well I was mostly responding to Blizzard bashing. They have a very difficult job of making everyone happy and also producing a good game. I don't think full mech needs to be viable. But I do think making a few changes to LotV can make mech MORE viable. l wouldn't mind seeing more bio play that incorporates some mech elements such as Siege Tanks or Liberators. Ravagers and Parasitic bomb are priorities 1 and 2 IMO. Make Cyclones 25 gas less. Increase the amount of gas in each base a bit and make the maps less... for lack of a better word.. fucking idiotic. Enough of these incredibly large hard to defend natural ramps. OK, it seemed to me like you were taking opposite positions. first make a thread about how to make mech viable and then enthusiastically agree with posts that said it shouldn't be viable in the first place. The interesting point for me is the eco. You say you played a lot of Terran, assuming a fair bit of mech, so how do you feel, based on your experience, that the new eco has impacted the style? Early game? Mid game? etc. It would be nice to have a discussion on this in a bit more detail. I think the infrastructure requirement for mech is quite high and because of that it has trouble dealing with the new econ style that requires taking a lot of bases very quickly. If you spend all your money on infrastructure you have nothing to take bases with or you have to delay taking your base too long. For example, what does a meching Terran do against... say... 20 roaches denying his 3rd? There's really nothing he can do that doesn't require a Starport OR a whole bunch of mech units that physically can't be out at that time. Meching Terran is a bit like Protoss where you have to invest a lot up front and defend with as few units as possible but Terran units right now can't quite do that because of how the units are designed and when they hit the field. Also, the new economy delays gas and promotes mineral units. Both Zerg and Protoss have decent Mineral harassment tools but Terran doesn't really if they want to mech. Hellions are good but you need that Factory time to build siege tanks so you can take your 3rd against a bunch of Roaches/Stalkers. Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 06:29 Lexender wrote:On December 08 2015 06:02 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 05:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 08 2015 05:32 DinoMight wrote:
Well, Blizzard is tasked with the impossible of making everyone happy.
The game can't be faster and require more micro but also be slower and positional at the same time. Give them a break. But you've just said that: TL,DR; Terran doesn’t need anti air from the factory to make mech work. Terran needs (1) A viper nerf (2) Siege tank pickup to not exist (3) more “mech friendly” maps and economy. So which one is it? 2 or 3 changes and some favorable maps or it's impossible? Or it shouldn't be viable anyway since it's irrational anyway? Well I was mostly responding to Blizzard bashing. They have a very difficult job of making everyone happy and also producing a good game. I don't think full mech needs to be viable. But I do think making a few changes to LotV can make mech MORE viable. l wouldn't mind seeing more bio play that incorporates some mech elements such as Siege Tanks or Liberators.Ravagers and Parasitic bomb are priorities 1 and 2 IMO. Make Cyclones 25 gas less. Increase the amount of gas in each base a bit and make the maps less... for lack of a better word.. fucking idiotic. Enough of these incredibly large hard to defend natural ramps. That is the one thing WE DONT WANT. Maybe YOU don't want it. I want it. As I've just said.
I agree actually. Here i hoped the Cyclone could be the answer. It's great as a first Factory unit in that it's versatile and can defend from air and ground harass. So maybe if the Cyclone gets to a point where with heavy micro, 3 or 4 of them can keep the enemy busy to get up the 3ed or at least the infrastructure to start production of mass tank hellbat...
It just feels like if Cyclones get good enough to do such a job, then why not continue to mass them? And then we end up with a bio 2.0, a kiting army, so then what's the point?
No matter how i look at it, i can't see any solution past making tanks more effective in small number.
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On December 08 2015 07:22 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 06:59 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 06:29 Lexender wrote:On December 08 2015 06:02 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 05:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 08 2015 05:32 DinoMight wrote:
Well, Blizzard is tasked with the impossible of making everyone happy.
The game can't be faster and require more micro but also be slower and positional at the same time. Give them a break. But you've just said that: TL,DR; Terran doesn’t need anti air from the factory to make mech work. Terran needs (1) A viper nerf (2) Siege tank pickup to not exist (3) more “mech friendly” maps and economy. So which one is it? 2 or 3 changes and some favorable maps or it's impossible? Or it shouldn't be viable anyway since it's irrational anyway? Well I was mostly responding to Blizzard bashing. They have a very difficult job of making everyone happy and also producing a good game. I don't think full mech needs to be viable. But I do think making a few changes to LotV can make mech MORE viable. l wouldn't mind seeing more bio play that incorporates some mech elements such as Siege Tanks or Liberators.Ravagers and Parasitic bomb are priorities 1 and 2 IMO. Make Cyclones 25 gas less. Increase the amount of gas in each base a bit and make the maps less... for lack of a better word.. fucking idiotic. Enough of these incredibly large hard to defend natural ramps. That is the one thing WE DONT WANT. Maybe YOU don't want it. I want it. As I've just said. Thats not even mech! This thread really makes no sense, you say what should be done to make mech viable, then you say you DONT want mech to be viable, and then you say you want only bio to be viable (no matter what units are used as support as long as the core is MMM, as it always is, thats not mech)
I said mech CAN be viable if they make a few changes.
Then I said insisting for mech to be viable purely because it was viable in BW is a stupid thing to do.
Then I said that all units are seeing play in one or another at the pro level even if they're not used in a "mech" composition and gave examples of times this has been done.
Then I commented that I would like to see more units incorporated into Terrans' composition.
What of this offends you?
Seriously...
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On December 08 2015 06:59 Sissors wrote:
It would be really nice if those whining that mech should not be viable can just propose the entire factory is removed.
Uhh last time I checked, it was the Terran players that have been making these threads and posts for centuries, and the "mech doesn't have to be viable" argument only came as a response to these pointless threads. So the ones whining were actually those who advocated for mech to be viable.
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can we stop proposing cyclones as the answer...
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If mech ever became viable it will be the same as it was in Wol/hots. Turtle until deathball A move. Let's not bring that back please.
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First of all, mech is a legitimate side of the terran play, period. Where zerg choose between melee, air or ranged, terrans choose between air, bio or mech. The upgrades dictate that.
That being said, I think it's beautifull that terrans can play with two very different mindsets and compositions, between the defensive mech and the mobile bio.
Now, let's talk viability.
1) tank : I agree with the buff + overkill propositions. Right now, the liberator does the job of the tank because it flies, and therefore is harder to swarm. About the tank drop : it is needed to survive ravagers. However it makes TvT incredibly retarded. So yeah I suppose something needs to happen here. Just remove it altogether, then work from that. Maybe terran players will be forced to build a banshee in TvZ, but it's pretty much been the case since 2012.
2) cyclone : the problem with the cyclone is that the way it's designed, it would me either an incredibly OP and frustrating unit, or a supportish unit with no real meaning. Seriously, does any one wants mech to be about the terran player constantly locking on zergs units and running away while he builds a critical mass of cyclones ?
My proposition would be to move the lock to AA only, while giving the cyclone the ability to shoot while moving with 5 range/15 dmg, and reducing both its cost, movespeed and build time SLIGHTLY. The cyclone needs a role that's close to the goliath, and what mech lacks since 2010 : a decent "footman" that shoots air.
3) parasitic bomb : this spell is op, punishing, does not really accept counter play. It's like a storm + a seeker missile. It's horrible, it needs to go.
4) prism : protoss harass was already well buffed with the adept. The ranged pickup need to go.
5) maps. Maps need to change. Not to encourage turtle, but to be bigger for a siege tank nerf not to be a turtle fest activator. Protoss as a race already gained mobility in great amount. Do not make the maps more open, just bigger, with bases a little more further from each other. And then we can have a tank that's decent, and not the piece of garbage it is now.
I think that's what would be needed for mech to work. And not a turtle/camping mech, a harass intensive and positionnal mech.
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On December 08 2015 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
5) maps. Maps need to change. Not to encourage turtle, but to be bigger for a siege tank nerf not to be a turtle fest activator. Protoss as a race already gained mobility in great amount. Do not make the maps more open, just bigger, with bases a little more further from each other. And then we can have a tank that's decent, and not the piece of garbage it is now.
I think that's what would be needed for mech to work. And not a turtle/camping mech, a harass intensive and positionnal mech.
How does a bigger map make a unit that can't move better?
That makes zero sense.
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From what I've seen of BW's TvP, it was about bases far from each other, with few turrets and siege tanks defending them. Protoss had to invest a lot if he wanted to kill one, leaving himself open to some kind of counter attack.
As a whole I think what makes mech either ultra turtle-ish or ultra weak is the fact you can pretty much cover a single attack path and wall a second one while being on B3-B4. If you had strong tanks but had to spread out thiner, defensive play would be more dynamic. AND mech players could get out on the map more, instead of cowering behind their turret ring until their 180-200 pop megapush.
So you buff the tank's stats, but you make the mech players spread themselves thiner.
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The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd...
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No way. Turtling sucks. You should not get to do that easy. HAHAHA. I laugh at your tears.
Also liberators have A-move AOE. What could be more annoying? Adn you have thors. And siege tanks. And more AOE.
User was warned for this post
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On December 08 2015 04:33 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:54 HeroMystic wrote:On December 08 2015 03:35 parkufarku wrote:
Mech doesn't need to work. You don't see Protoss players complaining they can't go non-gateway toss Words cannot describe just how tired this stupid argument is. Therefore, I'll just say "the races are not the same" and leave it at that. If you try to press on this argument you'll only confirm how little thought you put into this. Can you explain how wanting mech to be competitive isn't "stupid" (irrational) at its core? You've just picked some production buildings and units that follow a non-combat theme (they're mechanical) and ask Blizzard to change the rules of the game so this theme of units you like building is viable to play on every map and against every race. There's no other group of SC2 players like the mech players. I think it's totally cool to have a composition that you like to play but it goes too far when discussing possibly changing of the rules of the game to make your little pet composition better. It all started with mech being viable in a different game and wanting an equivalent in SC2, which is not at all unlike comparing terran mech to protoss mech. The races aren't supposed to be the same and neither are the games. The completely arbitrary picking of certain terran units, the "mechanical" ones built from factories and starports, is so absurd as a basis for this whole movement that you don't even think about it anymore. Every time the mech petitioners go too far with how much they want the whole game to change to suit them, people have to come remind you how ridiculous it all is.
I normally agree with you Nony, but I feel you are going a bit too extreme here.
You are correct that there is no reason for every conceivable unit composition to be viable to play. Of course. Don't think anyone argues that. What I do think most people agree with though, probably you as well, is that the game benefits, both as player and as spectator, if a matchup can be played viably with different unit compositions.
I'm a zerg players, so I'll talk about ZvT. The standard game will be the usual marine-medivac etc unit compostion. Which is fine, it makes for fun games imo. But it'd be even more fun if the MU every now and then was a different unit composition. A natural choice for alternative unit comps are units with different sets of upgrades, which mean factory and/or air units. I'm not a big fan of pure air compositions, so for me, the natural alternative TvZ unit comp is then mech (units benefitting form armoury upgrades). I also like the fact that the more passive armoury playstyle is so different from the aggressive 4M.
So yeah, I think it is kindof natural, and good for the game, to try to make mech viable (at least speaking about TvZ). That said, we need to be wary of getting to too passive style back, which can get pretty boring. But hopefully the "fixed" SH and the new economy will help with that. Actually, the fact that OP complains that the 3 base turtle into 200/200 a-move style isn't viable any more is a great sign in my book!  I definitely think that careful buffing of mech has the potential to make the game more enjoyable.
How to buff mech? Hard to say. Personally I'd start with tank projectile + damage buff, potentially nerfing tankivac correspondingly. Allows fewer tanks to be efficient, and allows increased counterplay against many tanks (ling bombs, roach burrow bombs, in general allowing a few spread lings to take a full round of tank shots, etc). But yeah, hard to say. Unlike many others on this site I won't pretend to be able to predict the outcome of changes to the game. 
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Hi,
im in Diamond. I play Mech in everey matchup since Wol. Its so frustrating to see that Blizzard doesnt do something to make mech viable. It would be better for the game. In BW there were 2 styles viable (Ok against toss you should only mech but some people played bio even in pro matches). It would be better for the game in everey case to have more options. In SC 2 zerg and toss have the Option to play different styles. Terran can only play bio with some different openings.. Blizzard promised us to make mech viable. Now we have nothing but the same boring bio style with liberators. TvP in Broodwar was better to watch because it was so much fun to see this tank pushes and the positional play. Now we have the boring biostyle in everey game. We want different Options for terran. It would be better for the game.
We Need Mech for better gameplay. Pls make mech Viable.
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"I've been reading a lot about Mech viability in LotV and what people think Terran needs to make it work."
Not flaming, but at what level \ rank does "Mech not work". Gold, Plat,Master or Pro i really would like to know?
Also why do Terrans, think its their god given right to win a game based on units from solely one building the Factory? The other 2 races must use Lower Tier units in order to win, or at least survive until later tech in fact Protoss is completely dependent on the Stalker\Zealot at all stages until extreme late game
Why cant Protoss players demand the right to win a game based on Robo units only?
I know Zerg used to have the ability to win with the the Muta at lair tech in HotS, but Mutas in this expansion don't look no where near as powerful, unless its a fast tech switch against Protoss. Winfestors got nerfed to the ground and so did swarm hosts after the Pros showed massing them could could win games building these units only.
At extreme late game, all 3 races go sky
Blizzard dont want mid tier units dominating the games, they want fast paced action, hence the new economy model and super fast units. Tanks simply arent what this game is about, they are a support unit for Bio
Stop dreaming about a game that is effectively retired by Blizzard, if you want Mech style play go play Broodwar or play Forged Alliance.
LoTV is the best version of SC2 so far i don't want it ruined by people who want to sit in their bases and Turtle to Victory with 40 min + games.
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Also why do Terrans, think its their god given right to win a game based on units from solely one building the Factory? The other 2 races must use Lower Tier units in order to win, or at least survive until later tech in fact Protoss is completely dependent on the Stalker\Zealot at all stages until extreme late game
Upgrades issue.
I know Zerg used to have the ability to win with the the Muta at lair tech in HotS, but Mutas in this expansion don't look no where near as powerful, unless its a fast tech switch against Protoss. Winfestors got nerfed to the ground and so did swarm hosts after the Pros showed massing them could could win games building these units only.
There is a huge difference between massing a single unit and a composition of units that comes from 1 building due to upgrades. In HotS, mech issues in TvP were different, but there were not much complaints about "Why am I making starports vikings in my mech?!"
Blizzard dont want mid tier units dominating the games, they want fast paced action, hence the new economy model and super fast units. Tanks simply arent what this game is about, they are a support unit for Bio
Unfortunately this is what made the game horrible for some of us. It is about dancing and activating abilities instead of planning and timing.
Stop dreaming about a game that is effectively retired by Blizzard, if you want Mech style play go play Broodwar or play Forged Alliance.
Already moved to BW. Thanks for the advice though.
LoTV is the best version of SC2 so far i don't want it ruined by people who want to sit in their bases and Turtle to Victory with 40 min + games.
That is your perspective. That doesn't I mean I agree with turtle 40+ minutes for 1 death push into GG. But LoTV is far from being "Best" version of SC2, and yes, that is my perspective as well.
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4713 Posts
On December 08 2015 02:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL. Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory??? People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air? If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP.
Because it promotes better gameplay. Factory units are ground units, by definition they are subject to terrain restrictions. To compensate they should be made more powerful. This to overall better gameplay since, instead of having two air blobs crash into each other air game, you have a more careful game of cat and mouse since air will be more mobile in general but less powerful in a straight up fight. Right now the game is in a horrible state since the best primary anti-air for all the races comes from other air units. Leading to a lot of very uninteresting late game fights.
And its not only gameplay. It makes it easier for mech to produce stuff since they won't need to add two different type of infrastructure buildings and armory research will be able to cover all the relevant units.
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Warp-in itself is a major thing in PvT. In BW, you specifically set up a siege in a space you could hold, cut off reinforcements, etc.
In SC2, warpin makes this entirely irrelevant. You can fully produce out of any base you have, which means there's that much more potential for counterattack.
That, and the lack of spider mines for map control / slowing enemy army movement.
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i'm still a little confused with the BW comparisons, please forgive me.
the word, "viable" is being thrown out there with little consideration for context with regards to those very comparisons.
deep6, other bio cheeses and openers TvP doesn't make the "composition" viable. It needed to work, and it needed to be unscouted and masked behind the meta opening at the time, which involved marines in a bunker at the natural.
just because marines and medics were used in some pro-games doesn't mean it's usable by the rest of the population of gamers, not in the slightest.
there is a problem I have where players wish for something to be an option to them--something that is fully workable and fits into any playstyle they imagine, without actually requiring the player to practice extensively or to do their homework on opponents. it's like it doesn't matter the specifics of what your opponents do, you want to play singleplayer for the first 5 minutes and build what you think works, then it works at least somewhat and your opponents need to figure a way around it. if you want to turtle, you turtle and bottle up the potential openings in your base and then the win condition for your opponent is to contain and starve you from an extra base. this is where the playervsplayer interaction occurs, and I understand the request for this kind of playstyle or at least the option for it to exist.
there was a lategame mech transition for TvZ that became popular past 2008. it happened in part because the factory units that were used did not need simultaneous upgrades. in fact, they didn't need any upgrades all to mix in well with the rest of the bio army. those units offered cheap and efficient ways to funnel off a section of the map for very specific time-frames where bio was hard to play. those units were not a requirement to stay in the game when defiler mounds were getting built by opposition, yet they eased the flow of the game and made it easier to play effectively on certain maps. sometimes they (tanks) were a requirement in certain situations, granted you had the information beforehand.
it's very obvious once you watch games of BW (beginning to end) that the pacing of income makes it so that you have very few selections in openers--so much so that players will use the exact same builds with very little variation, and even buildings were placed in the same spots. this is simply because they're the safest and most efficient things to do on a given map. the pacing of the game is slower such that you have few workers, lower income cumulatively, and in ZvZ your zerglings won't get the speedling upgrade because it takes too many resources vs. how many larvae you're getting. so, in that example, you keep altering your spending (and larvae) on zerglings and drones until you have enough to support constant production (should you choose) plus the possibility of taking gas and having speed.
in SC2, you just take away the opportunity cost and get both very quickly (or have many opportunities to), whether you opened hatch first or not.
if you are telling me that air-zerg is a thing in ZvP, you really need to start doing your homework or hashing out some games. It may become a trend, or an option (as mutalisks are) based on scouting and the space you've earned yourself throughout the game but it is moreso a way to close out the game than it is a composition that comprises of unit combinations. each unit is cost inefficient, and requires gas which is a heavy resource for zerg.
because you made some wins as mech (vulture, tank, goliath) in TvZ on USW/East does NOT mean it's "viable". it means your opponents were bad enough, and you were good enough using those units and timings that you were able to get away with it. whereas at the top of the game, players struggle and cannot make it work except in very specific situations
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Warp-in itself is a major thing in PvT. In BW, you specifically set up a siege in a space you could hold, cut off reinforcements, etc.
They already stated during BETA that warping is not going. I agree that it is source of all issues that Protoss suffer from (And any other race that plays vs Protoss).
If not for warping, the whole Blink all in era would not have happened to begin with.
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As a Terran i also like to see siege tank pickups removed... TvT became kinda silly with that. its like whoever lands the first good siege tank marine doom drop wins...
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On December 08 2015 08:22 blade55555 wrote:
If mech ever became viable it will be the same as it was in Wol/hots. Turtle until deathball A move. Let's not bring that back please.
HotS TvT. Much turtle. So great point.
Or not.
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