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On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd...
It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it.
I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP.
Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything.
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Sorry for the discouraging post but how many years does it take for you to realize mech is not coming to sc2? It's been 5 years and it's the third and final installment. The pack has been shuffled, cards have been dealt, now play your hand as it is.
Even if you're still hopeful, the only type of mech that will be viable would be Sc2 mech with a particular lack of spider mines and spread-out tanks, but liberators against every threat you can imagine. Or even worse, a gigantic ball of supersonic cyclones blacking out the screen with their indicators. Even then, just be glad you're not playing with warhounds haha.
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On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything.
tanks don't need to do well against chargelots as they should always be supported by hellbats.
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On December 08 2015 08:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
5) maps. Maps need to change. Not to encourage turtle, but to be bigger for a siege tank nerf not to be a turtle fest activator. Protoss as a race already gained mobility in great amount. Do not make the maps more open, just bigger, with bases a little more further from each other. And then we can have a tank that's decent, and not the piece of garbage it is now.
I think that's what would be needed for mech to work. And not a turtle/camping mech, a harass intensive and positionnal mech. How does a bigger map make a unit that can't move better? That makes zero sense.
If maps are bigger you can buff the tanks stats more since it's immobility is a bigger issue or something like that.
It's all irrelevant tho mech in bw wasn't god damm tanks and friends.
It had a lot of other units that were good which allowed for the flexibility which mech in sc2 lacks.
Vultures were a super cheap way to hold back your opponent and decent meat shields.
Science vessles were an extremely flexible caster unit.
Goliaths are quickly massable AA
It had a supreme late game that ensured you can't just wait it out.
Mech in sc2 doesn't have those toys.
Hellions can be ran off the map by a few roaches (Grenade reapers might fill this hole who knows)
Tanks take more supply and hit for less
vessles have a raven that's useless in unless you have 40 of them (with para bomb it's useless then too)
Late game used to be everyones favorite mass bc raven viking turtle over 60 thousand turrets.
Issue with having a very strong defensive comp with a good late game in sc2 is that because of the maps (Bases are close to each other compared to BW) If mech is ever viable then there is no point in playing agressive.
Since you can easily split the map without ever moving out(overgrowth maps were the standard macro maps for most of sc2) there is no reason to attack, we play whatever works after all.
You can't just change the maps either, bases in sc2 are not close together based on something arbitrary.
It's because armies in general are more mobile(T doomdrops ,12 prism warp ins, 40 muta balls ) in sc2 than bw so you can't hold on to far off bases with a few units, zerg lacks it's greatest tool from bw namely the defiler which allowed 5 lings and lurker to stop a 60 supply army while waiting for reinforcements.
Toss doesn't have the tools to defend a fast 3rd if it's too far from the main.
Making bw like mech viable in sc2 would require for a total redisign of sc2 econ, maps ,unit interactions for every race etc.
And that's not something blizzard has the capacity or desire to do.
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On December 08 2015 19:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. tanks don't need to do well against chargelots as they should always be supported by hellbats.
OK. Replace Chargelots with Blink Stalkers. Roaches. Adepts. Same question.
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On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything.
I think we should also make tanks fly and shoot air. And spawn thors when they die that fall on the ground and do splash damage.
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On December 08 2015 19:09 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 19:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. tanks don't need to do well against chargelots as they should always be supported by hellbats. OK. Replace Chargelots with Blink Stalkers. Roaches. Adepts. show me 160 supply of a moveed roaches killings 80 supply of tanks.
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On December 08 2015 19:10 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. I think we should also make tanks fly and shoot air. And spawn thors when they die that fall on the ground and do splash damage.
Please point me to where in my post I wrote "we should just buff tanks forever and ever and make zero othe changes to the game" so that I can remove that and make sure no one else misunderstands my point.
If you could see past your own bias for one second, you might appreciate that I'm much closer to suggesting that the tank problem is unsolvable than I am to anything that should make terrans very happy.
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On December 08 2015 19:14 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 19:10 HellHound wrote:On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. I think we should also make tanks fly and shoot air. And spawn thors when they die that fall on the ground and do splash damage. Please point me to where in my post I wrote "we should just buff tanks forever and ever and make zero othe changes to the game" so that I can remove that and make sure no one else misunderstands my point. If you could see past your own bias for one second, you might appreciate that I'm much closer to suggesting that the tank problem is unsolvable than I am to anything that should make terrans very happy. I am just answering your question of the buff tanks need to deal with stalkers and adepts.
Non flying tanks are unsolvable because things like broodlord and adepts/stalkers exist
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Good, I rather see mech not being viable at all then how it was in HoTS.
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On December 08 2015 19:13 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 19:09 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 19:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. tanks don't need to do well against chargelots as they should always be supported by hellbats. OK. Replace Chargelots with Blink Stalkers. Roaches. Adepts. show me 160 supply of a moveed roaches killings 80 supply of tanks.
80 supply of tanks? Pray tell where a non-deathballing Terran mecher got 80 supply of tanks to push out at the 8 minute mark.
I made it clear that I'm talking about BW style slow push mech, and could not be less interested in deathball turtle "mech." What 80 supply of tanks can or cannot accomplish is irrelevant, if a Zerg can be maxed on Roaches before the Terran has anything remotely frightening, and continue to remax from 4 hatcheries while a Terran has how many factories to replenish his dying gas units?
Edit: I read your longer post, which wasn't addressed to me, and I think we mostly agree. It's a crying shame. If they'd legitimately tried back during HotS beta, or even LOTV beta, it could have been done.
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On December 08 2015 19:01 B-royal wrote:
Sorry for the discouraging post but how many years does it take for you to realize mech is not coming to sc2? It's been 5 years and it's the third and final installment. The pack has been shuffled, cards have been dealt, now play your hand as it is.
I know, however personally I have been happily meching in WoL and HotS. (Also WoL vs protoss. While in HotS on paper mech got help, they also got some significant nerfs in mech tvp, so in the end I never was really sure if it was better or worse. No hellbats made it harder in WoL, but also opened up nice option to have enemy zealots being kited by hellions while tanks shot them). I don't personally need to have it as good as HotS, but I do wonder if the major nerfs were really needed. For example vs zerg we got the ravager, which is pretty much a specific early-mid game tank counter, parasitic bomb and boosted broodlords. Also boosted ultras, but in principle mech has many high damage units which are not as badly affected).
At the same time I am doing better than ever vs zerg. Now with Liberator I can counter mutas, I am just opening double starport banshees and raining death from above on any zerg agression. Mid game I go back to mech, but to be fair I don't know if I got a proper reason for this besides nostalgia, since late game I am going back to air again.
On December 08 2015 19:13 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 19:09 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 19:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. tanks don't need to do well against chargelots as they should always be supported by hellbats. OK. Replace Chargelots with Blink Stalkers. Roaches. Adepts. show me 160 supply of a moveed roaches killings 80 supply of tanks.
Then a critical mass of tanks has been reached, and they definately do well. Small downside: By this time the zerg is hive and your tanks are largely dead weight anyway. The problem there is more in smaller numbers they simply get overrun, in larger numbers when they start pulling their weight, it is too late to be relevant. (Thats only vs a bunch of units btw, pretty sure for example adepts still would thrash those tanks).
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I dont know about higher rank terrans here in GM like EJK and likes, but here are major flaws in my opinion on why mech doesn't work
Fundamental flaws
1) the need to respond to air force with air
2) speed of expansions
Now, the second one is not really a problem- the first one is a big fundamental problem that has been carried over into lotv- and is more apparant.
Now, when I am talking about mech, I am talking more about siege tanks pushing as core with support units.
-TvZ-
1) Viper
Now, viper was a unit that had good interactions in past, with binding cloud vs spreading tanks and zoning out with air. Now, it has solution to both problems, with parasitic bomb nullifying air with way too fast damage and having binding cloud to prevent ground from attacking on top of it. Add with it abducts and you have high utility caster that can recharge and deal with everything mech can throw at it.
2) Broodlords
Same as above- Broodlords REQUIRE A2A engagements as broodlings in high amoutns at 10.5 range zone out ground 2 air units completely- but vipers deny this very thing.
3) Ravagers
Not a big problem in my eyes, but it does its fair share in punishing tanks heavily in lower numbers and keeping in low while not taking in as much damage as it should in return. I am fine with it but it does make it harder for mech player.
As result of the combination of above 3 factors, mech TvZ is largely a large rush to kill off zerg as fast as possible and denying bases past 3/4. As result, a more mobile skyterran liberator+banshee/ hellion cyclone is favored as it is only real composition that can reasonably keep zerg from out expanding.
-TvP-
I think theres a lot of things that carried over on HotS as problems on top of LotV changes. In my eyes, Mech TvP in LotV is in even worse state than before.
The real killer here is economy
1) Economy
Protoss in LotV has lot more freedom to expand and is often seen getting 3rd earlier than terran player- which is a fairly big problem for Terran as the protoss army is inherently beefy-meaning they can get to needed number faster. This I think is #1 cause that is actually killing mech play in lotv as there is no real way to prevent protoss 3rd while myriad of options from protoss can keep terran contained
2) adepts
Adepts come in hand to hand with increased protoss harassment options in warp prism and likes. Combine this with economy change means protoss gets 3rd out lot earlier and roll over your army.
Shade is a big problem as well- Siege tanks do not do well against units that come up close and personal- and was weak to zealots. Adept is everything this and more- as it is just as tanky if not tankier, and can close the distance with 0 risk to itself. It blinking on top of siege tank line means lost tank and often times, durign defensive stage of game, this spells end for siege tanks if thi were to happen.
3) skytoss interactions
With split mech upgrades and nerf to raven, it is lot harder to counter the skytoss compositions, lot harder than it was in hots. As skytoss that troubles mech so much is primarily composed of capital ships liek tempest and carrier which combines extremely well, one with range and 1 with close dps, it completely zones out the mech compositions. Vikings needing upgrade on top of it does not help, as well as general lack of ground to air unit that can combat skytoss would it appear.
add to general warp gate reinfrocement after trades according to how much terran commited in one area leads to iffy for terran.
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Anyway, overall, I thought early LotV beta where cyclone was pretty broken was one of best time for sc2 mech to thrive in. Mech could actually move out with assault all-rounder unit that served as great AA and combined with tank/liberator/mine to zone out and allow helllion/cyclone to engage freely while allowign tanks to inch forward was really exciting to play, and mech was able to move out sub 150-160 supply. Its such a shame blizzard nerfed this so heavily as it did good job of bridging gap and allowed mech to deal with air units well.
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On December 08 2015 16:58 Topdoller wrote:
"I've been reading a lot about Mech viability in LotV and what people think Terran needs to make it work."
Not flaming, but at what level \ rank does "Mech not work". Gold, Plat,Master or Pro i really would like to know?
Also why do Terrans, think its their god given right to win a game based on units from solely one building the Factory? The other 2 races must use Lower Tier units in order to win, or at least survive until later tech in fact Protoss is completely dependent on the Stalker\Zealot at all stages until extreme late game
Why cant Protoss players demand the right to win a game based on Robo units only?
I know Zerg used to have the ability to win with the the Muta at lair tech in HotS, but Mutas in this expansion don't look no where near as powerful, unless its a fast tech switch against Protoss. Winfestors got nerfed to the ground and so did swarm hosts after the Pros showed massing them could could win games building these units only.
At extreme late game, all 3 races go sky
Blizzard dont want mid tier units dominating the games, they want fast paced action, hence the new economy model and super fast units. Tanks simply arent what this game is about, they are a support unit for Bio
Stop dreaming about a game that is effectively retired by Blizzard, if you want Mech style play go play Broodwar or play Forged Alliance.
LoTV is the best version of SC2 so far i don't want it ruined by people who want to sit in their bases and Turtle to Victory with 40 min + games.
Thank you thank you thank you. Could not have said it better myself. I agree w you that Terrans think Mech is a god-given right that has been a "flaw of SC2" but these guys fail to realize BW and SC2 are different games. It's like Protoss players complaining they can't use only Robo units to win the game.
There's a REASON why Blizz hasn't caved in and hasn't "fixed" this with expansions and patches...because it was never an issue in the first place.
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On December 08 2015 19:10 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 18:27 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 08 2015 08:43 DinoMight wrote:
The more I think about it the more I find that roaches are a huge fuck you to Terran mech.
Basically they're cheap and easily massable and require no infrastructure while the counters necessary are much more gas heavy and require a lot more investment in infrastructure.
Seriously 15-20 roaches fucks you up. Think of how much mech you need to move out against just a handful of roaches like that sitting at your 3rd... It's not just Roaches. Speed lings, Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, Adepts. The entire point of tanks is "enemy has trouble getting in range." None of these easily, easily accessible units have trouble getting on top of tanks in SC2. They just do it. I said it in the previous mech thread and I'll say it again here, a damage buff on the tank WILL NOT RECREATE BW MECH in TvZ / TvP. Even if the economic conditions are ideal. Tanks need something more against these units. Even more range, even more splash. I'm not sure what. At best a damage buff enables turtle mech, and that MAY lead to fun games if the other races have a lot of opportunities to harass a turtling mech player... if they don't, it'll be backwards HotS TvP. Any time anyone has a solution, ask yourself this: does this solution allow tanks to destroy a higher supply army of a-moved Chargelots before the Chargelots get in range and the tanks start shooting each other? If no, then you haven't really solved anything. I think we should also make tanks fly and shoot air. And spawn thors when they die that fall on the ground and do splash damage.
Perhaps. Or we could try giving hellions spidermines.
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On December 08 2015 22:44 jinjin5000 wrote:
I dont know about higher rank terrans here in GM like EJK and likes, but here are major flaws in my opinion on why mech doesn't work
Fundamental flaws
1) the need to respond to air force with air
2) speed of expansions
Now, the second one is not really a problem- the first one is a big fundamental problem that has been carried over into lotv- and is more apparant.
Now, when I am talking about mech, I am talking more about siege tanks pushing as core with support units.
-TvZ-
1) Viper
Now, viper was a unit that had good interactions in past, with binding cloud vs spreading tanks and zoning out with air. Now, it has solution to both problems, with parasitic bomb nullifying air with way too fast damage and having binding cloud to prevent ground from attacking on top of it. Add with it abducts and you have high utility caster that can recharge and deal with everything mech can throw at it.
2) Broodlords
Same as above- Broodlords REQUIRE A2A engagements as broodlings in high amoutns at 10.5 range zone out ground 2 air units completely- but vipers deny this very thing.
3) Ravagers
Not a big problem in my eyes, but it does its fair share in punishing tanks heavily in lower numbers and keeping in low while not taking in as much damage as it should in return. I am fine with it but it does make it harder for mech player.
As result of the combination of above 3 factors, mech TvZ is largely a large rush to kill off zerg as fast as possible and denying bases past 3/4. As result, a more mobile skyterran liberator+banshee/ hellion cyclone is favored as it is only real composition that can reasonably keep zerg from out expanding.
-TvP-
I think theres a lot of things that carried over on HotS as problems on top of LotV changes. In my eyes, Mech TvP in LotV is in even worse state than before.
The real killer here is economy
1) Economy
Protoss in LotV has lot more freedom to expand and is often seen getting 3rd earlier than terran player- which is a fairly big problem for Terran as the protoss army is inherently beefy-meaning they can get to needed number faster. This I think is #1 cause that is actually killing mech play in lotv as there is no real way to prevent protoss 3rd while myriad of options from protoss can keep terran contained
2) adepts
Adepts come in hand to hand with increased protoss harassment options in warp prism and likes. Combine this with economy change means protoss gets 3rd out lot earlier and roll over your army.
Shade is a big problem as well- Siege tanks do not do well against units that come up close and personal- and was weak to zealots. Adept is everything this and more- as it is just as tanky if not tankier, and can close the distance with 0 risk to itself. It blinking on top of siege tank line means lost tank and often times, durign defensive stage of game, this spells end for siege tanks if thi were to happen.
3) skytoss interactions
With split mech upgrades and nerf to raven, it is lot harder to counter the skytoss compositions, lot harder than it was in hots. As skytoss that troubles mech so much is primarily composed of capital ships liek tempest and carrier which combines extremely well, one with range and 1 with close dps, it completely zones out the mech compositions. Vikings needing upgrade on top of it does not help, as well as general lack of ground to air unit that can combat skytoss would it appear.
add to general warp gate reinfrocement after trades according to how much terran commited in one area leads to iffy for terran.
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Anyway, overall, I thought early LotV beta where cyclone was pretty broken was one of best time for sc2 mech to thrive in. Mech could actually move out with assault all-rounder unit that served as great AA and combined with tank/liberator/mine to zone out and allow helllion/cyclone to engage freely while allowign tanks to inch forward was really exciting to play, and mech was able to move out sub 150-160 supply. Its such a shame blizzard nerfed this so heavily as it did good job of bridging gap and allowed mech to deal with air units well.
So generally you seem to agree with me on most things 
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What if they did something like:
Terran upgrades changed to ground upgrades and air upgrades (no more bio/mech distinction).
Ground Attack, Ground Armor, Air attack, Air Armor researched at the Engineering bay
Ground attack, Ground Armor Level 1 available at engineering bay, everything else requires armory.
This way you can start the game with bio, which is flexible enough to defend and take bases etc and work your way into mech without falling behind on upgrades. And you allow flexibility on bio/mech comps, which I think are sexy.
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On December 08 2015 01:11 johax wrote:
i wonder how well the viper would do if terran had some kind of anti caster unit, or perhaps some long ranged anti air to prevent it from getting close
That isn't a solution because the Viper is such a binary unit. Either it lands the Abduct or Blinding Cloud or it doesn't. Therefore if the Viper can be easily countered, at the top level it will be a useless unit. So it is very difficult to counter on purpose, particularly in large numbers.
Therefore, Zerg can just overbuild Vipers and as long as a few Blinding Clouds land on the Tank army, then the much cheaper and more mobile Roach/Hydra army, even with less supply, can run it over with ease.
Tanks need a damage buff for Mech to work, as well some fundamental changes with how counters work in this game. The Immortal was fixed versus Mech, but the Viper is still way too strong against Mech. Abduct and Blinding Cloud are crippling, particularly versus Siege Tanks, yet versus Bio the Viper has basically no spells with that much power because Bio can move out of the cloud easily and you're not going to be Abducting Marines and Marauders.
Blinding Cloud should only affect Bio units or affect all units but only reduce range by 3-4 so Tanks aren't crippled by it.
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What if Tank, Hellbats and Thors´s movement speed would be increased?! same as stalker f.e.
For me it makes sense - at least a tank drives faster than a soldier, in real :D
And it would make mech viable i think. It´s just to slow.
And Ghost snipe should shoot instant!!!
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I hope there is some response to my suggestion (increase movement speed).
Anybody why it could affect the game negatively? (Except that such a fast Thor would look ridicolous
But it would give you the possibility to save (parts of) your army if a fight develops desastrous for the mech player (thats imho one of the main reasons why mech looses - once army lost, game lost).
And if you could save a more or less huge part of your army the game could go on and develop in another way.
Please let me or anybody who is interested know why this would be a bad change!
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EPT
