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On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL.
Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory???
People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air?
If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP.
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On December 08 2015 02:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL. Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory??? People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air? If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP.
Well, two obvious answers to that are:
1 - it is much easier to get the production going when you don't need two different facilities
2 - the upgrades would be shared
But you are correct when you say that this is just a matter of balance, so yeah, I'm 100% with you no that.
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On December 08 2015 02:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 02:32 WrathSCII wrote:
Mech won't be viable even in TvT. Mech has been successfully removed from the game as Blizzard wished. All is that left for us mech players either learn bio or move on to something else.
GG, it was a nice run. Why do you even bother with this post. Seriously it adds nothing to this chat.
I got little tired of seeing these threads with the same idea keep popping . In general, mech issues has been discussed over and over. But the problem is Blizzard willing to listen and make it viable? 2 expansions and over 5 years and they did not care about it.
LOTV focuses on everything that mech is not. All they want to have is units dancing everywhere, to hell with position play, to hell with slow pushing, they just want explosions everywhere.
It is too late, we have to make do with what we have. Discussing why it is not viable is time waste because WE ALL KNOW why it is not.
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On December 08 2015 03:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 02:59 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL. Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory??? People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air? If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP. Well, two obvious answers to that are: 1 - it is much easier to get the production going when you don't need two different facilities 2 - the upgrades would be shared But you are correct when you say that this is just a matter of balance, so yeah, I'm 100% with you no that.
I think if air is a threat at a time where you CAN'T have a Starport then maybe yeah you need better AA from the factory. But as it is, there's no really scary air threat that arrives before Starport.
Cyclone I think is really good at helping out Terran in the early game and holding them over until proper AA can be out.
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On December 08 2015 03:12 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 02:32 WrathSCII wrote:
Mech won't be viable even in TvT. Mech has been successfully removed from the game as Blizzard wished. All is that left for us mech players either learn bio or move on to something else.
GG, it was a nice run. Why do you even bother with this post. Seriously it adds nothing to this chat. I got little tired of seeing these threads with the same idea keep popping . In general, mech issues has been discussed over and over. But the problem is Blizzard willing to listen and make it viable? 2 expansions and over 5 years and they did not care about it. LOTV focuses on everything that mech is not. All they want to have is units dancing everywhere, to hell with position play, to hell with slow pushing, they just want explosions everywhere. It is too late, we have to make do with what we have. Discussing why it is not viable is time waste because WE ALL KNOW why it is not.
Actually, a big chunk of the population seems to think that stronger tanks and goliaths are the answer.
So I wouldn't say that EVERYONE is on board.
I think in the current economy, a slighty cheaper Cyclone, Photon Overcharge nerf (with a buff to help PvZ elsewhere), and Viper nerf would go a long way to make mech playable, even if it isn't the super slow pushing Brood War mech.
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On December 08 2015 03:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:06 Big J wrote:On December 08 2015 02:59 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL. Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory??? People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air? If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP. Well, two obvious answers to that are: 1 - it is much easier to get the production going when you don't need two different facilities 2 - the upgrades would be shared But you are correct when you say that this is just a matter of balance, so yeah, I'm 100% with you no that. I think if air is a threat at a time where you CAN'T have a Starport then maybe yeah you need better AA from the factory. But as it is, there's no really scary air threat that arrives before Starport. Cyclone I think is really good at helping out Terran in the early game and holding them over until proper AA can be out.
Yes and you can always produce marines early as Terran if that was the real deal. Reactored barracks with marines is always viable, even if you intent to go Mech later on. Then you have widow mines from the factory and now the cyclone and yeah, then there is the Viking. If that doesn't work an armory-requirment Goliath wouldn't solve the problem either early.
I don't think the problem is the very early game anti-air at all for mech. I think the problem with Mech antiair are as follows:
Carriers in large numbers counter Vikings
Parasitic Bomb counters large numbers of Vikings
Tempests can pick from your mech army and there is not really a good way to engage that or prevent that. (I know PDD and stuff, but all of that hits too late)
I think the basic air problem is that Mech just can't deal properly with capital ships because either they counter both the Thor and the Viking alike on their own (like the Carrier or pick away from them from a safe cover like the tempest) or a combo of air units counter both of them (Broodlord+Viper+Corruptor). The other antiair options are all sort of bridging options for Mech imo, though widow mines can be a pretty sick get-out-of-jail card if one isn't careful (e.g. against interceptors). Also I left out liberators for now, because to be honest I still don't quite understand their antiair dynamics sufficiently. They are pretty insane in high numbers, but can they compete with Protoss capital ships+storm or PB? Probably not. (ghosts are a solution I guess, but you see, we are walking away from Mech techs to cover your anti air and more and more into, why not play bio to begin with if your tanks cannot cover against spellcasters or you need to walk out of tank support to attack into Tempests and you need mass liberators anyways and they deal with ground decently to begin with?)
So yeah, it is not so much that Mech has no antiair options, it's really that the antiair options of Mech all become insufficient eventually or need too much support from all techpaths in my opinion.
And I think buffing the antiground Mech would be kind of a solution, because then the Meching player could choose to either play for a push but expose himself to airtechs, or mix in airtechs more freely because he doesn't need as much units on the ground. The main problem of this probably being, but what if the Terran still just reaches the same ultimate lategame army with tanks, thors, liberators, vikings, ravens and ghosts and it is just buffed?
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Mech doesn't need to work. You don't see Protoss players complaining they can't go non-gateway toss
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I agree with Dinomight. People are focusing on the wrong problems.
From what I've seen:
For mech vs Z, cyclone/hellion + plus supporting liberators and/or tanks is really good against any Zerg ground army, but so expensive that it's almost impossible to make anything happen before hive and the inevitable broodlord/viper/corruptor deathball (as an aside, Cyclones absolutely CRUSH armored air that they outrange).
Ravagers also make it almost impossible to open ground, so mech players are forced to do crazy things like open triple starport banshee.
Parasitic bomb on the viper invalidating its own counters is the issue here. Move that skill to the infestor.
Vs P, Terran has the tools to win (some combination of Cyclones/Mines/Hellions/Liberators) but mass blink just crushes any tech opening and pylon overcharge kills early pressure. Part of the problem is that Cyclone openings are really good vs early P pressure, but get destroyed by blink, mostly because they cost too much gas and build too slowly in the early game.
Some combination of:
1. Parasitic bomb nerf (either a straight numbers change or moving it to the infestor)
2. Slight Cyclone cost reduction (150/125?)
3. Factory cost reduction (25 less gas?) to account for changed economy skewing early income towards minerals
OR
4. Pylon overcharge nerf (with compensating buffs elsewhere if necessary).
would go a long way towards fixing things. Even just 1 and 2 might be enough actually.
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OP is a Protoss player who does not play Terran, telling us how mech should be played...
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On December 08 2015 03:35 parkufarku wrote:
Mech doesn't need to work. You don't see Protoss players complaining they can't go non-gateway toss
Words cannot describe just how tired this stupid argument is. Therefore, I'll just say "the races are not the same" and leave it at that. If you try to press on this argument you'll only confirm how little thought you put into this.
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On December 08 2015 03:53 BeStFAN wrote:
OP is a Protoss player who does not play Terran, telling us how mech should be played...
OP is a Protoss player who plays a lot of Terran (I said that I off race Terran IN THE OP) and nowhere in this post did I tell you how to play. OP also happens to play and watch a ton of SC2.
Your post adds nothing to this discussion.
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On December 08 2015 04:03 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:53 BeStFAN wrote:
OP is a Protoss player who does not play Terran, telling us how mech should be played... OP is a Protoss player who plays a lot of Terran (I said that I off race Terran IN THE OP) and nowhere in this post did I tell you how to play. OP also happens to play and watch a ton of SC2. Your post adds nothing to this discussion.
This is the problem with this thread. It mainly revolves around you and other players opinions and "feelings" instead of citing anything tangible like actual games played or people who can be recognized as knowledgable such as Strelok.
"OP is a Protoss player who plays a lot of Terran (I said that I off race Terran IN THE OP) and nowhere in this post did I tell you how to play. OP also happens to play and watch a ton of SC2."
this discussion is plainly narcissistic and it revolves around someone who is very biased and not very qualified to discuss how a play style actually works and should work
www.teamliquid.net/blogs/DinoMight
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What Terran mech in my opinion need is the security to go into the mid/ late game. There is none of that at the moment.
The Cyclone could fill that gap but its god-awful as it is at the moment.
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On December 08 2015 02:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL. Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory??? People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air? If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP.
For gameplay reasons mainly. Air vs air is much more boring then ground vs air where one is maybe more powerful but restricted by terrain and mobility; and for balance reasons because the infrastructure of mech is very expensive, you have gas heavy buildings compeating with mostly mineral only ones (barracks, wargates) and you can't be asked then to also compete 1 for 1 in "anti air" buildings, starports.
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On December 08 2015 04:12 BeStFAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 04:03 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 03:53 BeStFAN wrote:
OP is a Protoss player who does not play Terran, telling us how mech should be played... OP is a Protoss player who plays a lot of Terran (I said that I off race Terran IN THE OP) and nowhere in this post did I tell you how to play. OP also happens to play and watch a ton of SC2. Your post adds nothing to this discussion. This is the problem with this thread. It mainly revolves around you and other players opinions and "feelings" instead of citing anything tangible like actual games played or people who can be recognized as knowledgable such as Strelok.
Isn't your post just a big "feelings" rant?
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I got mech working on low level (Diamond) against Protoss with mass mine supported by tanks and Vikings. Doubt it works on higher levels though were people actually can micro.
But mech versus Zerg feels complexly hopeless. Zerg has so huge advantages in the early game and the mid game. Their all ins are powerful as hell, their economy is extremely strong, ravagers come out too early and counters every unit you got until late game when you have several banshees with the speed upgrade.
I agree completely that it is not the anti-air that is the problem. It is Ravager, Nydus, and parasitic bomb.
If Ravagers got moved to Lair, Nydus got nerfed and parasitic bomb got moved to infestors I think mech would be somewhat playable in TvZ.
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On December 08 2015 03:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:12 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 03:06 Big J wrote:On December 08 2015 02:59 DinoMight wrote:On December 08 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I think your propositions are OK-ish but the conclusion its pretty awful.
NO MORE TUTRLE. No maps where you sit in 4 bases, not to make enemies unable to break you, not to depend on ultimate end game armies to win.
The reason we say buff the tank and add AA to the factory is so that we don't need to turtle on 4 bases, if you had a tank that could actually stop roach/ravager pushes, that could fight protoss (pretty much anything protoss at this point) and a unit that doesn't forces you to turtle to mass air.
Maps then can be used to balance other stuff, I think open maps and the fast LotV economy are ok for mech, because that way you can buff factory based mech without it being a completely unbreakable turtle for 40 min composition.
That being said, BUFF THE DAMN TANK AND ADD OVERKILL. Buffing the tank and adding overkill is one thing but why does your anti air need to come from the factory??? People keep saying this but nobody will explain. Why can't you build a Starport for anti air? If your answer is parasitic bomb, well I've already said that ability is clearly OP. Well, two obvious answers to that are: 1 - it is much easier to get the production going when you don't need two different facilities 2 - the upgrades would be shared But you are correct when you say that this is just a matter of balance, so yeah, I'm 100% with you no that. I think if air is a threat at a time where you CAN'T have a Starport then maybe yeah you need better AA from the factory. But as it is, there's no really scary air threat that arrives before Starport. Cyclone I think is really good at helping out Terran in the early game and holding them over until proper AA can be out. Yes and you can always produce marines early as Terran if that was the real deal. Reactored barracks with marines is always viable, even if you intent to go Mech later on. Then you have widow mines from the factory and now the cyclone and yeah, then there is the Viking. If that doesn't work an armory-requirment Goliath wouldn't solve the problem either early. I don't think the problem is the very early game anti-air at all for mech. I think the problem with Mech antiair are as follows: Carriers in large numbers counter Vikings Parasitic Bomb counters large numbers of Vikings Tempests can pick from your mech army and there is not really a good way to engage that or prevent that. (I know PDD and stuff, but all of that hits too late) I think the basic air problem is that Mech just can't deal properly with capital ships because either they counter both the Thor and the Viking alike on their own (like the Carrier or pick away from them from a safe cover like the tempest) or a combo of air units counter both of them (Broodlord+Viper+Corruptor). The other antiair options are all sort of bridging options for Mech imo, though widow mines can be a pretty sick get-out-of-jail card if one isn't careful (e.g. against interceptors). Also I left out liberators for now, because to be honest I still don't quite understand their antiair dynamics sufficiently. They are pretty insane in high numbers, but can they compete with Protoss capital ships+storm or PB? Probably not. (ghosts are a solution I guess, but you see, we are walking away from Mech techs to cover your anti air and more and more into, why not play bio to begin with if your tanks cannot cover against spellcasters or you need to walk out of tank support to attack into Tempests and you need mass liberators anyways and they deal with ground decently to begin with?) So yeah, it is not so much that Mech has no antiair options, it's really that the antiair options of Mech all become insufficient eventually or need too much support from all techpaths in my opinion. And I think buffing the antiground Mech would be kind of a solution, because then the Meching player could choose to either play for a push but expose himself to airtechs, or mix in airtechs more freely because he doesn't need as much units on the ground. The main problem of this probably being, but what if the Terran still just reaches the same ultimate lategame army with tanks, thors, liberators, vikings, ravens and ghosts and it is just buffed?
I've only messed around with it in the unit tester, but i found that Liberators kill interceptors really really fast. It seems like the Tempest and the BL supported by Vipers are the ones that can essentially do free dmg.
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8748 Posts
On December 08 2015 03:54 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:35 parkufarku wrote:
Mech doesn't need to work. You don't see Protoss players complaining they can't go non-gateway toss Words cannot describe just how tired this stupid argument is. Therefore, I'll just say "the races are not the same" and leave it at that. If you try to press on this argument you'll only confirm how little thought you put into this.
Can you explain how wanting mech to be competitive isn't "stupid" (irrational) at its core? You've just picked some production buildings and units that follow a non-combat theme (they're mechanical) and ask Blizzard to change the rules of the game so this theme of units you like building is viable to play on every map and against every race. There's no other group of SC2 players like the mech players. I think it's totally cool to have a composition that you like to play but it goes too far when discussing possibly changing of the rules of the game to make your little pet composition better. It all started with mech being viable in a different game and wanting an equivalent in SC2, which is not at all unlike comparing terran mech to protoss mech. The races aren't supposed to be the same and neither are the games. The completely arbitrary picking of certain terran units, the "mechanical" ones built from factories and starports, is so absurd as a basis for this whole movement that you don't even think about it anymore. Every time the mech petitioners go too far with how much they want the whole game to change to suit them, people have to come remind you how ridiculous it all is.
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On December 08 2015 04:33 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:54 HeroMystic wrote:On December 08 2015 03:35 parkufarku wrote:
Mech doesn't need to work. You don't see Protoss players complaining they can't go non-gateway toss Words cannot describe just how tired this stupid argument is. Therefore, I'll just say "the races are not the same" and leave it at that. If you try to press on this argument you'll only confirm how little thought you put into this. Can you explain how wanting mech to be competitive isn't "stupid" (irrational) at its core? You've just picked some production buildings and units that follow a non-combat theme (they're mechanical) and ask Blizzard to change the rules of the game so this theme of units you like building is viable to play on every map and against every race. There's no other group of SC2 players like the mech players. I think it's totally cool to have a composition that you like to play but it goes too far when discussing possibly changing of the rules of the game to make your little pet composition better. It all started with mech being viable in a different game and wanting an equivalent in SC2, which is not at all unlike comparing terran mech to protoss mech. The races aren't supposed to be the same and neither are the games. The completely arbitrary picking of certain terran units, the "mechanical" ones built from factories and starports, is so absurd as a basis for this whole movement that you don't even think about it anymore. Every time the mech petitioners go too far with how much they want the whole game to change to suit them, people have to come remind you how ridiculous it all is.
Well, the Factory, and Terran, is designed that way. Mineral sink good against light, gas expensive unit good against armor, space control with mines and some anti air. Also separate upgrades. So, if they changed Terran to work more like Protoss with just ground and air upgrades then you would be right.
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On December 08 2015 04:33 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:54 HeroMystic wrote:On December 08 2015 03:35 parkufarku wrote:
Mech doesn't need to work. You don't see Protoss players complaining they can't go non-gateway toss Words cannot describe just how tired this stupid argument is. Therefore, I'll just say "the races are not the same" and leave it at that. If you try to press on this argument you'll only confirm how little thought you put into this. Can you explain how wanting mech to be competitive isn't "stupid" (irrational) at its core? You've just picked some production buildings and units that follow a non-combat theme (they're mechanical) and ask Blizzard to change the rules of the game so this theme of units you like building is viable to play on every map and against every race. There's no other group of SC2 players like the mech players. I think it's totally cool to have a composition that you like to play but it goes too far when discussing possibly changing of the rules of the game to make your little pet composition better. It all started with mech being viable in a different game and wanting an equivalent in SC2, which is not at all unlike comparing terran mech to protoss mech. The races aren't supposed to be the same and neither are the games. The completely arbitrary picking of certain terran units, the "mechanical" ones built from factories and starports, is so absurd as a basis for this whole movement that you don't even think about it anymore. Every time the mech petitioners go too far with how much they want the whole game to change to suit them, people have to come remind you how ridiculous it all is.
<3 <3 <3 <3
Thank you for this incredible post.
Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen it better.
It's like saying I want to win only with female Terran units or Zerg units that don't end in "isk."
People played mech in Brood War because it won games. Not because of some arbitrary stylistic choice. Bio was not viable vs Protoss because it got annihilated by Reavers.
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