• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:00
CEST 14:00
KST 21:00
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou17Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four2BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET7Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)81
StarCraft 2
General
RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (March 17-23): Clem Bounces Back
Tourneys
Tenacious Turtle Tussle RSL Season 3 Qualifier Links and Dates $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion SnOw's Awful Building Placements vs barracks BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET Is there anyway to get a private coach? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 300$ 3D!Community Brood War Super Cup #4 [ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Roaring Currents ASL final [I] Funny Protoss Builds/Strategies
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Chess Thread Men's Fashion Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Sabrina was soooo lame on S…
Peanutsc
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1328 users

Why mech won't work (surprise! Vipers! and econ) - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 7 8 9 All
bigbadgreen
Profile Joined October 2010
United States142 Posts
December 11 2015 17:57 GMT
#161
On December 09 2015 14:46 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2015 13:38 bigbadgreen wrote:
The biggest reason this is going to be so hard to balance is because in trying to make mech easily viable is that buffing mech units helps out the players who prefer bio. There are already early mid game bio pushes that come with tanks that are very hard to hold as Z. If you buff the tank not only would it make those pushes even more difficult it would kill mech in the process because using those pushes would be the easy choice for pros.

You can't just buff the tank and not take something away. the medivac pickup being removed isn't enough. The big question for mech players is, which unit you would like to weaken? marine, medivac, marauder or hell bat. Now let's get some reaction from the bio players. if the tank were to be buffed, which unit would you like to see weakened?


Your argument presupposes that the game is balanced right now. The game is very far from balanced right now. It isn't figured out yet, either. Not every buff has to be offset with a nerf, and vice versa, this early into LotV.


My argument isn't based on the game being balanced at all. I'm not coming from this at a give and take here. My argument is based on bio builds right now that focus on pushes that are currently very hard to hold as zerg. If you strengthen the tank like many people in this thread are suggesting it will most likely be unstoppable. A tank with longer range, with more damage with support from a couple of hellbats, marines and medivacs now counters lings, banelings, roaches, ravagers and hydras. And it shows up too early for lurkers or mutas to be out.
My argument is that if you buff the tank you will have to weaken one of the units that help support that push or weaken the tank in another way. Even with no medivac pickup the push will not be slowed enough to stop it. Maybe revert to seige upgrade but doesn't that negate the whole reason for the buffs, to give tanks the ability to control space better, to allow for terran to stop ground armies in a defensive way.
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
December 11 2015 19:07 GMT
#162
On December 09 2015 13:38 bigbadgreen wrote:
but doesn't that negate the whole reason for the buffs, to give tanks the ability to control space better, to allow for terran to stop ground armies in a defensive way.


not really, no
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
Merkmerk
Profile Joined August 2010
United States96 Posts
December 11 2015 19:32 GMT
#163
On December 11 2015 16:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2015 15:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
On December 11 2015 04:27 Naracs_Duc wrote:
On December 10 2015 16:30 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
if a unit "sees play" but its role is not as interesting as expected (to give some extreme examples a unit could be totally imba and "see ton of play", or could "see play" but have a very one dimensional role, being placed almost always in the same spot or at the same moment in the game), then people will want them to be changed in some way so you can't brush people who want mech's role to change with all the arguments they give with just a Q/A justification "does that unit see play? yes". Don't think everybody who wants mech to be different don't want bio to work side by side with a more factory units based army so I'm not sure where you're coming from saying they (everybody who wants to change mech?) are "literally asking for less" diversity. A very important point is to give T back its unique identity of being strong at occupying an area (not just your own base) and attacking an adjacent area from that occupied area, and the siege tank is the expression of that, even when used side by side with bio, so long as it is strong enough to really matter, "trade efficiently" as you say, even in low numbers and should be very efficient when already sieged up and attacked, otherwise why even have a siege tank in the game? (while the other races have things that can snipe a spot which you must dodge or things that instarush/teleport towards you as well?) It can't only have range, it must have real power, if it has to siege up cost this much money have this much hp and cant shoot at close range.. It would probably be great for the game overall to bring back an essence of tactical positioning element to it that got consistency and durability to it. More emphasis on strategy. It's not really about being able to "spam tanks like BW". If you just spam tanks in BW you're pretty much dead anyway But sure, think of trying to make SC2 better than BW not just the same, I'll always say you need to change the pathing for that first, but anyway on the topic of strategic diversity of what you build, adding the possibility of mech to stand more or less by itself by having roles that aren't purely hardcounter or metagamegimmicky like the thor or cyclone are at the moment (possibly the hellion and tank too to a lesser extent?) is a good thing for that, for the strategic diversity of what you build. it's about the types of use that you can make of your units and the strategic identity of T. If T is able to make a lot of facts and use the units there efficiently together as tools that don't merely mean "hunt down an early air aggressor" or "run into base to kill drones" or "counter a muta flock" or "some extra long range damage", but instead something like "mobile engagement starter" and "scout that threatens small units" and "reliable strong slow anti air" and "powerful long range threat" this opens a lot of diversity, possibility to start games with a bunch of factories then have choice to add this many barracks or not etc. If you are worried that other races don't have such good diversity, why not think of making them become as interesting as that (in their own way) instead of trying to pull T down to keep them on the same level? As its been pointed out, if T managed to get this type of interesting diversity to it then it should have a positive impact on Z and P over time since they'll need to adapt in meta at least against T.


None of those are special to mech.

You can have the Battlecruiser, the Marauder, the Ghost, the Raven, etc... occupy those abstract strategic slots. Heck, you can add midgame upgrades to bunkers to give them those strategic slots. But no one is asking for those options to be available to bio, or for those options to be available to air. Why? Because there is this nostalgic need for people to click the siege tank button in order to pretend they're playing BW.

Well I think it's because mech/factory units are lacking a wide strategic role and because the identity of the units call for something along the lines of these roles to be attributed.. the siege tank with the tradebacks it has (weaknesses) is expected to have such strengths, for instance. Bio units are not expected to fill these roles and don't, nor should they as you don't want things to overlap!
But yeah the bunkers upgrade man, much important as we know.


What lack of roles is being talked about?

All four Factory units have extensive uses in different matchups and stages of the game. Tanks in TvT, Widow Mines, Hellion openings, Hellbat timings, and even Thors used to zone out Mutalisks. Is the goal of threads like these to buff a tech tree that is already heavily used in all three matchups?



The goal of threads like this is quite literally "I want to be able to choose a unit composition at the start of the game and it be viable in every matchup regardless of what my opponent makes"

It makes no sense whatsoever and is based on the WOL Terran baby mentality
Yodeleihelaihee
Garmer
Profile Joined October 2010
1286 Posts
December 11 2015 20:03 GMT
#164
On December 08 2015 02:57 sd_andeh wrote:
I think you can mech, but you can't turtle. And that's a good thing. Turtling shouldn't be in this game.


a-move terran mech it's not mech to me, positional play it's needed which mean also pushing the "turtling" to the enemies base, this is how it was played in BW and it worked perfectly

if you want a-move mech play bio
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
December 11 2015 20:46 GMT
#165
On December 12 2015 05:03 Garmer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2015 02:57 sd_andeh wrote:
I think you can mech, but you can't turtle. And that's a good thing. Turtling shouldn't be in this game.


a-move terran mech it's not mech to me, positional play it's needed which mean also pushing the "turtling" to the enemies base, this is how it was played in BW and it worked perfectly

if you want a-move mech play bio


Why can't positional design be given to units that aren't used as much--like Ghosts and Battlecruisers? Why change an already used unit just because you miss BW?
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-11 21:12:56
December 11 2015 21:09 GMT
#166
i hate nerfs, i thought everyone did? don't we all want a OP game where every race has some BS that makes them super good?

removing PB means you need to give us the old fungal, I'm talking like 9 range insta cast, but that won't happen. If you give me a middle ground I'd be happy but that's still not enough. You may have to give me back pre-patched HotS swarm hosts and that won't happen either. So give me faster lurkers and better fungal and we have a deal.

also siege tanks can be picked up by medivacs, that automatically makes blinding cloud less effective. Shouldn't every mech terran have 2-3 medivacs just for that reason alone? with the speed boost upgrade (which you can afford in the late game) you can spam speed boost and pick up tanks to make the strategy even more effective, it's way too good not to use.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
December 14 2015 17:21 GMT
#167
On December 12 2015 06:09 emc wrote:
i hate nerfs, i thought everyone did? don't we all want a OP game where every race has some BS that makes them super good?

removing PB means you need to give us the old fungal, I'm talking like 9 range insta cast, but that won't happen. If you give me a middle ground I'd be happy but that's still not enough. You may have to give me back pre-patched HotS swarm hosts and that won't happen either. So give me faster lurkers and better fungal and we have a deal.

also siege tanks can be picked up by medivacs, that automatically makes blinding cloud less effective. Shouldn't every mech terran have 2-3 medivacs just for that reason alone? with the speed boost upgrade (which you can afford in the late game) you can spam speed boost and pick up tanks to make the strategy even more effective, it's way too good not to use.


Its been about a week and I still don't know what you're talking about.
Prev 1 7 8 9 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
12:00
King of the Hill #228
Liquipedia
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 68
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko332
StarCraft: Brood War
actioN 2827
Hyuk 2071
GuemChi 1905
Bisu 862
ZerO 784
Jaedong 759
firebathero 462
Hyun 407
Mini 308
Stork 300
[ Show more ]
hero 272
BeSt 246
Light 194
Pusan 156
Last 148
ggaemo 146
EffOrt 143
Barracks 120
Larva 115
zelot 110
ToSsGirL 92
Shine 92
Rush 76
Mind 50
TY 44
Sea.KH 34
sorry 32
Free 25
Sharp 22
Shinee 19
Icarus 17
soO 15
Noble 15
Sexy 14
Yoon 14
Terrorterran 13
HiyA 11
Sacsri 10
Dota 2
XaKoH 290
BananaSlamJamma193
XcaliburYe161
Dendi160
canceldota30
League of Legends
JimRising 445
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2658
zeus641
x6flipin473
allub210
oskar144
markeloff117
byalli71
edward37
Super Smash Bros
Westballz34
Other Games
summit1g6569
singsing1904
B2W.Neo957
crisheroes317
Mew2King48
Trikslyr13
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 966
Counter-Strike
PGL224
Other Games
BasetradeTV144
StarCraft 2
WardiTV88
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 52
lovetv 10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 35
• StrangeGG 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV601
League of Legends
• Jankos2081
• Lourlo451
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
23h
Online Event
1d 4h
RSL Revival
1d 14h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 23h
OSC
2 days
SKillous vs goblin
Spirit vs GgMaChine
ByuN vs MaxPax
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.