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On December 09 2015 01:25 DinoMight wrote:
What if they did something like:
Terran upgrades changed to ground upgrades and air upgrades (no more bio/mech distinction).
Ground Attack, Ground Armor, Air attack, Air Armor researched at the Engineering bay
Ground attack, Ground Armor Level 1 available at engineering bay, everything else requires armory.
This way you can start the game with bio, which is flexible enough to defend and take bases etc and work your way into mech without falling behind on upgrades. And you allow flexibility on bio/mech comps, which I think are sexy.
I wish they did that. But no way they will they do it 
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Whoo, lets make mech as fast and mobile as warhounds. Good idea. No problems can be found there.
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I don't think movement speed is the issue. I think infrastructure is.
If you let Terran open and defend with bio until they have the resources(GAS)/infrastructure to mech that would be ideal. I think aligning ground upgrades might be good for that.
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To make mech viable, all you have to do is increase the damage per attack in siege mode.
Imagine if, in BW, tanks did 10 damage in siege mode. Mech would not be viable, that is, if you chose to make a bunch of factory units, you would lose, because tanks would be basically useless, and vulture-goliath is not strong enough to defeat the other races. It would have nothing to do with how the other races are designed, what their counters to tanks are, what the upgrades are, or anything. It would take 4 direct hits to kill a marine. Tanks would not be used, so mech would not be used.
Siege tanks in SC2 simply are not strong enough. They are expensive, low mobility wastes of money and energy, and do not trade effectively in low or high numbers, mostly because they do too little damage. This is the number one reason why mech is weak, or not viable. That their counters are strong does not help the situation.
Given how much emphasis is now placed on mobile units, and how hard the new units like ravagers stomp on immobile units, tanks are relatively weak even compared to HotS tanks. Medivac pickup is intended to alleviate that by adding mobility to siege mode, but that was poor design - balance a weak unit by removing its interesting weakness, rather than adding to its strength. It was poorly received, and for good reason I think. We briefly had something like shuttle reaver in sc2, but it was on terran, and it was dumb. The firing delay only makes it weak again anyway. It is better to make the contrast between mobile units and immobile units more striking, not less.
So, if you want mech in the game, make it so siege tanks do something on the order of 70(+10 per upgrade) damage per attack in siege mode. Give them flat damage instead of a bonus vs armored. Increase their range. Increase their splash radius. There are more interesting elements in LotV than preserving their damage interaction with zerglings so forget about the 35 damage upgrade interaction. Make it so, when enemy units get in range of a tank, they die, and quickly. Then mech will be viable. Counters to mech will still be usable but now more interesting because the cost of messing up is greater. And maybe, to balance tank timings, siege mode goes back on an upgrade. And maybe tanks have to take longer to siege, or have lower attack speed. This would be fine.
Once you have strong tanks, everything else you need with mech is already in the game, you just might have to tweak some numbers. Maybe the range on parasitic bomb should come down, so that you could easily lose a viper trying to cast it. Maybe parasitic bomb should go on the infestor, and mind control on the viper. You can adapt. But first...
BUFF TANKS
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On December 09 2015 02:57 TheBumbleBee wrote:
What if Tank, Hellbats and Thors´s movement speed would be increased?! same as stalker f.e.
For me it makes sense - at least a tank drives faster than a soldier, in real :D
And it would make mech viable i think. It´s just to slow.
And Ghost snipe should shoot instant!!!
a deathball that is incredibly strong thanks to its low mobility suddenly receives high mobility...great idea. why don't we give tanks the ability to shoot air too while we're at it? it only makes sense cuz its cannon can be pointed in the sky.
Oh, and a Thor that can be repaired instantly by itself during combat. Like the campaign. Seems fair
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The anti-mech crowd can never seem to remember that Terran ground upgrades are completely separate. This deters you from combining ground forces from factory and barracks, especially in the mid-to-late game, not that factory units synergize too well with bio play anyway (besides the widow mine, I guess).
And to top it all off? Forges are 150 minerals, Evolution Chambers are 75 minerals and the Armory is 150/100. Now, the Armory is expensive and later tech due to the units it unlocks, but the costs make it sting all-the-more if you were to even consider getting both bio and mech upgrades.
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The anti-mech crowd can never seem to remember that Terran ground upgrades are completely separate. This deters you from combining ground forces from factory and barracks, especially in the mid-to-late game, not that factory units synergize too well with bio play anyway (besides the widow mine, I guess).
This is a problem? Zerg ground range and melee upgrades are also separate in case you forgot. Not like a zerg player can freely mix whatever units he wants and have them all be upgraded either
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Literally the only problem with mech is that the tank sucks, why do people insist on making this more complex or only doable with nerfs to other races?
Why nerf blinding cloud? It's one of the few things that force tank splitting and allows engagements once the tank count goes past 10. It both forces micro and it can be mitigated, just split better.
Why nerf PB? It's the only thing that Zerg has that can reliably deal with mass air and even then it's almost a 200 gas sacrifice to get it off with Vipers being fragile and unwieldy. I do like the idea of moving it to the Infestor and removing NP completely (did they already do that???) but fungal growth needs a buff for the Infestor to be a bit more viable.
I don't know, better maps, a small tank buff, and some time for the Koreans to set the metagame a bit more will probably suffice as mech still looks strong when executed well. At launch some things appear super weak/strong/unviable until they are figured out months down the line, these maps are fucking atrocious though, bring better maps before all but the very smallest of balance tweaks are made, they are alot more significant to balance then people give credit for.
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Parasitic bomb makes the viper counter every unit in the game. Previously vikings were the counter to vipers. Now, vipers actually counter their counter.
It's not that hard to understand for anyone with any balance or game design acuity. Don't know why it was even added into the game.
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On December 09 2015 07:20 avilo wrote:
Parasitic bomb makes the viper counter every unit in the game. Previously vikings were the counter to vipers. Now, vipers actually counter their counter.
It's not that hard to understand for anyone with any balance or game design acuity. Don't know why it was even added into the game.
Lol, come on man..
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I don't know if someone will come up with a strong style or some nasty mech pushes, but in theory mech doesn't suit LotV at all. Having to expand and defend a spread out area is always something that mech has struggled with and LotV just exacerbates that with expanding occurring more regular than before. Just seems like bio will be the go to unless some proven strong pushes/timings with mech are realized or other balance changes occur.
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On December 09 2015 07:09 ZombieFrog wrote:Show nested quote +The anti-mech crowd can never seem to remember that Terran ground upgrades are completely separate. This deters you from combining ground forces from factory and barracks, especially in the mid-to-late game, not that factory units synergize too well with bio play anyway (besides the widow mine, I guess). This is a problem? Zerg ground range and melee upgrades are also separate in case you forgot. Not like a zerg player can freely mix whatever units he wants and have them all be upgraded either
This is a false equivalency. There are four upgrades for Terran ground, two of which are from the expensive armory. If a zerg player was so inclined, they could spend 375/0 for three drones and three evolution chambers. And then, there's the discount for three upgrades instead of four (although Terran may get some value from the mech shared armor upgrade). For a Terran player to get two engineering bays and two armories, it's 550/200. And that's not even taking into account the fact that Zerg also benefit from having unit production tied to one building!
But with the state of factory units and Terran air, you'll upgrade air over factory units anyway. Bio + air support is simply stronger than bio + upgraded factory units.
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On December 09 2015 07:20 avilo wrote:
Parasitic bomb makes the viper counter every unit in the game. Previously vikings were the counter to vipers. Now, vipers actually counter their counter.
It's not that hard to understand for anyone with any balance or game design acuity. Don't know why it was even added into the game.
you dont know why it was added because you dont play zvp
parasitic bomb is too strong IMO.. but it is needed.. maybe just a lesser degree.
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On December 09 2015 08:34 Ignorant prodigy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 07:20 avilo wrote:
Parasitic bomb makes the viper counter every unit in the game. Previously vikings were the counter to vipers. Now, vipers actually counter their counter.
It's not that hard to understand for anyone with any balance or game design acuity. Don't know why it was even added into the game. you dont know why it was added because you dont play zvp parasitic bomb is too strong IMO.. but it is needed.. maybe just a lesser degree.
Everyone knows why PB was added, Zerg's shitty air anti air for the last 5 years isn't a secret.
But it is possible to do a very bad thing for very good reasons, and PB is such a thing. It's not just OP, it's a poorly designed ability placed on a unit that didn't need any more versatility.
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On December 09 2015 03:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Whoo, lets make mech as fast and mobile as warhounds. Good idea. No problems can be found there.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Warhound
movement speed 2.81 , thats fast?!
warhound was not removed because of high movement speed. but you cannot(!!) make a fast deathball with siegetanks - except with tankivacs - but then you have to micro well. same as zerg with r/h/v. and both can engage or disengage.
for me the only buff that makes sense. remove or nerf bc/pb doesnt make sense, cause both are extremely fair against Toss, but not against a slow mech army. toss can disengage with his deathball, mech cant.
INCREASE MOVEMENT SPEED of mech.
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On December 09 2015 09:09 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 08:34 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 09 2015 07:20 avilo wrote:
Parasitic bomb makes the viper counter every unit in the game. Previously vikings were the counter to vipers. Now, vipers actually counter their counter.
It's not that hard to understand for anyone with any balance or game design acuity. Don't know why it was even added into the game. you dont know why it was added because you dont play zvp parasitic bomb is too strong IMO.. but it is needed.. maybe just a lesser degree. Everyone knows why PB was added, Zerg's shitty air anti air for the last 5 years isn't a secret. But it is possible to do a very bad thing for very good reasons, and PB is such a thing. It's not just OP, it's a poorly designed ability placed on a unit that didn't need any more versatility.
I disagree that it's poorly designed, maybe unimaginative being an Irradiate rip off but it's an excellent solution to mass air and can be mitigated with a bit of micro.
I agree though it doesn't need to be on the Viper, Blinding Cloud and Yank are already super strong, remember though that the Viper is a bitch to micro and is an immediate target so losing it is hella fucking easy.
Wouldn't mind if PB was moved to Infestors though so they could be more well rounded with a ground based attack and a way to deal with air as well.
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On December 09 2015 07:34 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 07:09 ZombieFrog wrote:The anti-mech crowd can never seem to remember that Terran ground upgrades are completely separate. This deters you from combining ground forces from factory and barracks, especially in the mid-to-late game, not that factory units synergize too well with bio play anyway (besides the widow mine, I guess). This is a problem? Zerg ground range and melee upgrades are also separate in case you forgot. Not like a zerg player can freely mix whatever units he wants and have them all be upgraded either This is a false equivalency. There are four upgrades for Terran ground, two of which are from the expensive armory. If a zerg player was so inclined, they could spend 375/0 for three drones and three evolution chambers. And then, there's the discount for three upgrades instead of four (although Terran may get some value from the mech shared armor upgrade). For a Terran player to get two engineering bays and two armories, it's 550/200. And that's not even taking into account the fact that Zerg also benefit from having unit production tied to one building! But with the state of factory units and Terran air, you'll upgrade air over factory units anyway. Bio + air support is simply stronger than bio + upgraded factory units.
The Terran whine never stops. Have you ever considered, for just a second, that not everything in the three races have to be symmetrically equal? Armory might be more expensive but its way offset by how cost efficient Terran army is, especially with micro and splits. Giving upgrades to that efficient war machine is way more impactful than measly cost upgrades in a building.
For example, should Zerg players start complaining that their drops / transport isn't as effective as Terrans? It should be equal exactly right?, even though Z has higher mobility in general. Using your logic, Zerg players should start complaining Medivac boost is unfair because Z drops don't have that kind of amazing mobility
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On December 09 2015 10:47 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 07:34 p68 wrote:On December 09 2015 07:09 ZombieFrog wrote:The anti-mech crowd can never seem to remember that Terran ground upgrades are completely separate. This deters you from combining ground forces from factory and barracks, especially in the mid-to-late game, not that factory units synergize too well with bio play anyway (besides the widow mine, I guess). This is a problem? Zerg ground range and melee upgrades are also separate in case you forgot. Not like a zerg player can freely mix whatever units he wants and have them all be upgraded either This is a false equivalency. There are four upgrades for Terran ground, two of which are from the expensive armory. If a zerg player was so inclined, they could spend 375/0 for three drones and three evolution chambers. And then, there's the discount for three upgrades instead of four (although Terran may get some value from the mech shared armor upgrade). For a Terran player to get two engineering bays and two armories, it's 550/200. And that's not even taking into account the fact that Zerg also benefit from having unit production tied to one building! But with the state of factory units and Terran air, you'll upgrade air over factory units anyway. Bio + air support is simply stronger than bio + upgraded factory units. The Terran whine never stops. Have you ever considered, for just a second, that not everything in the three races have to be symmetrically equal? Armory might be more expensive but its way offset by how cost efficient Terran army is, especially with micro and splits. Giving upgrades to that efficient war machine is way more impactful than measly cost upgrades in a building. For example, should Zerg players start complaining that their drops / transport isn't as effective as Terrans? It should be equal exactly right?, even though Z has higher mobility in general. Using your logic, Zerg players should start complaining Medivac boost is unfair because Z drops don't have that kind of amazing mobility
I won't bite the bait on the obvious straw man argument.
Anyway, don't miss the point. Either mech play needs to be viable by itself, or Terran needs a different solution to synergize factory with bio play. Upgrades are one obvious barrier that could be addressed if Blizzard remains unwilling to support mech play.
Of course Bio is cost efficient and we've had MMM dominate all matchups since WoL. Wanting more diverse builds to be competitive is good for the game. Of course it has to be balanced in the end, nobody is advocating for imbalance here.
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On December 09 2015 10:47 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 07:34 p68 wrote:On December 09 2015 07:09 ZombieFrog wrote:The anti-mech crowd can never seem to remember that Terran ground upgrades are completely separate. This deters you from combining ground forces from factory and barracks, especially in the mid-to-late game, not that factory units synergize too well with bio play anyway (besides the widow mine, I guess). This is a problem? Zerg ground range and melee upgrades are also separate in case you forgot. Not like a zerg player can freely mix whatever units he wants and have them all be upgraded either This is a false equivalency. There are four upgrades for Terran ground, two of which are from the expensive armory. If a zerg player was so inclined, they could spend 375/0 for three drones and three evolution chambers. And then, there's the discount for three upgrades instead of four (although Terran may get some value from the mech shared armor upgrade). For a Terran player to get two engineering bays and two armories, it's 550/200. And that's not even taking into account the fact that Zerg also benefit from having unit production tied to one building! But with the state of factory units and Terran air, you'll upgrade air over factory units anyway. Bio + air support is simply stronger than bio + upgraded factory units. The Terran whine never stops. Have you ever considered, for just a second, that not everything in the three races have to be symmetrically equal? Armory might be more expensive but its way offset by how cost efficient Terran army is, especially with micro and splits. Giving upgrades to that efficient war machine is way more impactful than measly cost upgrades in a building. For example, should Zerg players start complaining that their drops / transport isn't as effective as Terrans? It should be equal exactly right?, even though Z has higher mobility in general. Using your logic, Zerg players should start complaining Medivac boost is unfair because Z drops don't have that kind of amazing mobility
Some times (actually all the time, but I'll try to be a bit fair) I think you are just a poorly worded troll, you always complain about "terran whiners" when you whine a lot yourself (I don't even want to remember your post during the blink era, they were cringe worthy at best) and now you come complaining about the same fucking argument you've made yourself.
You complain that terrans what a viable mech saying that protoss don't ask for robo only units to be viable (cuz all races have to be the same right? terran gets no mech because protoss has no robo only) and then you make THIS argument about races being different, when the bio/mech dichotomy is an inherent trait of terran.
I'm not complaining about your opinions, they are yours to make, but a little consistency would be nice.
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The biggest reason this is going to be so hard to balance is because in trying to make mech easily viable is that buffing mech units helps out the players who prefer bio. There are already early mid game bio pushes that come with tanks that are very hard to hold as Z. If you buff the tank not only would it make those pushes even more difficult it would kill mech in the process because using those pushes would be the easy choice for pros.
You can't just buff the tank and not take something away. the medivac pickup being removed isn't enough. The big question for mech players is, which unit you would like to weaken? marine, medivac, marauder or hell bat. Now let's get some reaction from the bio players. if the tank were to be buffed, which unit would you like to see weakened?
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EPT
