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On January 14 2016 21:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 10:25 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
Lots of people similarly don't like Roaches because they're boring units that lead to dumb coin flip "all in" games or dumb a-move games. So based on your logic, we should nerf Roaches? comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2. Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what?
If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent?
None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee.
As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech.
There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life.
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On January 14 2016 22:12 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 21:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 14 2016 12:21 Tachion wrote:
[quote]
comon dude, don't try to compare roach centric builds to turtle mech. 1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT? 2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2. Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what? If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent? None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee. As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech. There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life. Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable.
Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
While mech isn't the only case of Deathball or lose in the game it was one of the most blatant.
At the moment the design team is trying to move away from the turtle and the deathball so making imporvements which would help such a style is unlikely.
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Mech != turtling
Also, I dont think sc2 team has any real "design" with this game, they doing random changes that make zero sense.
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Rip adepts, you wil not be used again!
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On January 14 2016 22:20 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 22:12 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2. Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what? If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent? None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee. As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech. There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life. Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority? While mech isn't the only case of Deathball or lose in the game it was one of the most blatant. At the moment the design team is trying to move away from the turtle and the deathball so making imporvements which would help such a style is unlikely.
Other people in this thread have already addressed this better than I can. May I refer you to page 8 (which also happens to be the name of a great British movie starring the lovely Rachel Weisz and Bill Nighy) of this thread? Also, if you haven't seen it, go watch ForGG vs. Life. Lots of great games in those two series.
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On January 14 2016 22:33 ZeroCartin wrote:
Rip adepts, you wil not be used again!
Oh come on, this nerf is small and only affects one matchup.
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How I'd Fix Mech:
Issue of mobility, everything in the game over the years has been made faster, maps bigger, yet nothing to help Mech with that part. Having a few fast units with slow units doesn't work well with this game.
I suggest the following:
Get rid of siege tank pick-up.
Make unsieged tanks faster.
Reduce Thor Size/Cost 25%, adjust damage to be less(not sure exact would have to play with it) supply -1, Speed increase.
Add upgrade at the armory that allows for 50% reduced transformation time of Mech units. Siege/unsiege time, Thor transform time, Hellbat/helion conversion, viking ground to air transfer time, would all be included with that.
Slight increase to viking ground damage.
If the above changes mean that a slight damage nerf would be needed that is fine to all the units. The fact is the mobility makes it tough to play and I think the changes above once the sweet spot was found would help mech mobility and function. Can't make everything in the game faster, maps bigger, and do nothing with mech and then not understand why people just turtle or don't use it.
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On January 14 2016 22:20 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 22:12 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:On January 14 2016 12:38 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
1. Who said anything about turtling? You know mech can do other stuff, right? You've seen TvT?
2. Even if I was talking about turtle mech, why shouldn't I make the comparison? His argument is "this isn't fun to watch or play against so it shouldn't be in the game." Well that argument applies to a lot more units than the ones that make up mech, so why is mech being singled out? Lots of people don't like lots of units. Oracles, anyone? Dark Templar much? You don't have to love mech to recognize that Vanadiel's argument doesn't hold up. Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well. Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2. Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what? If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent? None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee. As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech. There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life. Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority?
how do you know? did you make a poll to see how many people like mech and how many don't?
Or do you just assume that everyone feels the same way about mech as you?
Seeing how many people demand mech to be viable, even in korea, it's pretty clear that a lot of people like mech.
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Rather than increasing overcharge attack speed I would give it +1 range and let it last a few seconds longer. Well maybe a bit of everything is best instead of giving it huge attack speed buffs which enables pylons to snipe down committed units too quickly and therefore prevents the opponent from taking risks.
On January 14 2016 22:47 FLuE wrote:
How I'd Fix Mech:
Issue of mobility, everything in the game over the years has been made faster, maps bigger, yet nothing to help Mech with that part. Having a few fast units with slow units doesn't work well with this game.
I suggest the following:
Get rid of siege tank pick-up.
Make unsieged tanks faster.
Reduce Thor Size/Cost 25%, adjust damage to be less(not sure exact would have to play with it) supply -1, Speed increase.
Add upgrade at the armory that allows for 50% reduced transformation time of Mech units. Siege/unsiege time, Thor transform time, Hellbat/helion conversion, viking ground to air transfer time, would all be included with that.
Slight increase to viking ground damage.
That sounds good to me. Getting rid of siege mode drops and buffing mech in other ways is essential I believe.
As well it should be considered to give spine crawlers a small +biological dmg upgrade at lair as it looks like that basic units overrun them too easily. Especially in ZvZ this could help to allow more versatile play but also this relatively strengthens mech units in TvZ .
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i like the siege tank pickups in TvZ. otherwize tanks would be to easy to kill for ravengers. but im not a big fan of the new tvt because of it... so i dont mind siege tank pickups to be gone...
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Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
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Just remove Photon Overcharge. Ever since That and swarmhost was added the player numbers have dropped in SC2. The idea of 1 click defense is really bad for a strategy game. Please end the strategy of protoss turteling to a very strong 2 base allin with only 1 unit on the map(MSC).
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The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
That said I absolutely rekt a guy with mech TvP on the ladder yesterday so for all you amateurs it's definitely viable 
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On January 14 2016 22:35 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 22:20 HellHound wrote:On January 14 2016 22:12 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:
[quote]
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well.
Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2. Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what? If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent? None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee. As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech. There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life. Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority? While mech isn't the only case of Deathball or lose in the game it was one of the most blatant. At the moment the design team is trying to move away from the turtle and the deathball so making imporvements which would help such a style is unlikely. Other people in this thread have already addressed this better than I can. May I refer you to page 8 (which also happens to be the name of a great British movie starring the lovely Rachel Weisz and Bill Nighy) of this thread? Also, if you haven't seen it, go watch ForGG vs. Life. Lots of great games in those two series.
ForGG vs Life was bio vs 10 pool
2 rax
very very sloppy mech play vs very very sloppy anti mech play
Even more sloppy mech play vs decent anti mech play
a roach queen all in
hellion banshee into bio
I didn't see anything that adresses my questions on page 8
Maybe i am not expressing myself well enough so here is my argument against mech.
Mech play issues stem from the maps.
In bw which every mech argument cites at least once had very spread out bases which meant that if mech player tried to turtle as hard as they can they would be confined to a much smaller number of bases when compared to SC2 which meant that you could just take the entire map vs a mech play and trade stupidly cost inefficiently and still win
In SC2 however you can split almost every map.
The ones you can't split are unplayable in zvt (which is why mech was mostly played on 2 player maps).
Because a lot of the maps were symmetrical in sc2 you could simply build a huge defensive line around your first 4 bases that you slowly expand to the final outer bases (usually 2 or 4 more) and then you have a split map with a massive turret tank PF fort sterching across it (not to mention PDD )
Put simply you need to spread out far more in bw to split the map then in sc2 which means you would naturally have a lot more gaps in your defense.
So why not spread out bases like they were in bw?
That's simply not an option due to the insane streght of harrassment mainly the prism and the medivac ( i guess mutas too) In bw dropships were expensive and didn't add anything to your army strength thus making a high number of them was unreasonable, in sc2 terrans reguarly have 10 dropships as part of their army that can drop 80 supply half way across the map in a few seconds. While the warp prism doesn't directly add to your army strenght like the medivac it forces a commitment of defensive units large enough to defend a warp in (could be anywhere between 4 and 12 gates) while the prism itself can be void of any units thus losing it would only incur a 200 mineral loss and some robo production time.
(Yes arbiters could do essentially low risk doom drops but terran had mines everywhere and zerg aside from having scourges and mutas flying around could also stall an entire army with a few lurkers and a defilier)
Super speed regen mutas are also part of this problem despite been a huge investment due to their extreme base trade strength making it very dangerous to move out.
This all means that chokes don't offer the same the same defense as they did in bw where could put 4 tanks in a choke and a wall off and it became super hard to attack by ground but in sc2 you could just drop where it's undefended (or on the tanks) much more easily and with a much smaller investment.
Something seemingly small that adds to this vulnerability to harassment is that all the bases are the same.
In bw usually one of your closest 2 bases to your main didn't have gas in it on a lot of maps. When you play a very gas intensive style like mech this caused you to float minerals. You could spend those minerals on extra turrets to cover mitigate the issue of spread out bases.
In sc2 by comparison your income is has a much better mineral to gas ratio so you usually pump units non stop until you max and THEN you start massing static D to make the impregnable fort.
In bw the more agressive mech plays were done by expanding quicker towards your opponents bases rather than the far out bases on the map and trying to contain them.
The defensive play for the late game style boiled down to harass with vultures and spam mines to take map control build up a sizeable army and slowly expand your base to encompass half the bases on your side and push forward the oppoents base that is closest to you (usually it's also very fresh and full of juicy minerals) and deny it.
Proceed to defend until your opponent runs out of minerals.
This is the exact same style as in sc2 turtle mech.
BW one was interesting to watch and fun to play against because it was imbalanced in a way, while the mech units (tanks and vultures mainly, goliaths were more okay at their job units than imba units :D) had obscene power it was compensated by how much they had to do defend all of the terrans bases while not letting the other player take the entire map. Also other races had retarded units like defilers to help fight against them :D.
SC2 mech did the same thing. The reason it was boring is because the mech player had no need to spread out as much to split the map. So the enemy had a much smaller opportunity to attack where their defense is weak ,except on large maps, on which mech is rarely played because it can't even attempt to spread the map (Cept for a few silly games like the one between life vs bbyong on Cactus valley). So since there are few weak points fighting mech comes down to timings, all ins or attempting to take a greater portion than half of the map and then trading until the terran runs out of money (in hots all ins and timings were dominant because ravens were so strong once sh couldn't force them to spend energy AND force a lot of tanks, in lotv split map would be dominant since zerg late game will just murder mech straight up without and of that strategic bs if the incomes are close)
My argument is that we already had BW mech in SC2 it was the end of HOTS the reason it wasn't cool like in BW was that while BW mech had better tools it's scenarios were much more difficult.
Does this epic wall of text betray how bored I am at work 
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I really want to learn to express my opinions accuratly without mass walls like this, hmm let's try TLDR
Mech was cool in bw cause maps were super spread out in
sc2 bases are too close together
we can't have bw like maps in sc2 cause harrassment options are way too strong
otherwise we already saw the same style of mech in sc2 as in bw at the end of hots and it was fucking boring.
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On January 14 2016 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 22:20 HellHound wrote:On January 14 2016 22:12 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:42 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 21:24 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 21:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 20:56 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 19:13 deacon.frost wrote:On January 14 2016 19:00 Bohemond wrote:On January 14 2016 16:28 Tachion wrote:
[quote]
Turtle mech was implied quite heavily in his post. He's comparing it to swarmhost/spore and cannon/voidrays and saying how boring it is over and again. Fits the picture pretty well.
Given that, mech is singled out because it has a history of being very slow and boring to watch for many people. Mech has a very poor reputation and reception in the community, and for good reason. There would need to be some pretty game breaking changes made to it to make it fun to play against or watch, so it's not so crazy to see that some people have given up on the idea of making mech viable, and think the idea of it should be abandoned altogether. I think it's a confirmation bias issue. People remember the horribly long boring turtle mech games as 'mech' and then proceed to forget the more exciting mech games are also mech. Both ForGG vs. Life series had tons of mech and were very fast paced exciting games. There were also some exciting mech games vs. Byul awhile ago, I think the Terran was Innovation, but I can't remember for sure. And there is plenty of games where the mech player just defended, defended and then a-moved across the map and won by some "timing" (I remember something about 160 supply timing but since I don't play Terran I may be wrong). Yes, it needs some skill, yes, it wasn't pure a-move(there was some sieging and unsieging etc.) but it looks like a-move. What do you want to do with those units anyway? Most of them are a-move units. It's the same as good ol' Protoss deathball. And there are plenty of games where the Zerg player just defended until X. And there are plenty of game where the Protoss player just defended until X. Some of those games have been great games, some of those strategies people look back on fondly. I loved watching Polt's TvZ on Antiga Shipyard. What's your point? Most of the games looks as what I described - waiting until composition, a-move, victory. The aggressiveness of meching player isn't that usual as mech defenders try to say it is. That's a boring style the same way Rain was boring to watch. Yes, he was playing insanely well, he was good at defending, but he was a boring player. (and I play the same style Rain used to play) I watch SC2 to be entertained. Watching mech is not entertaining. At least I wasn't entertained by the ending of HotS where players were building bazillion of turrets and turtling until the unbeatable army. Or a-move with tank-thor-hellbat into victory. Yes, from time to time there was some aggressive player, but even Maru did this! Just played passive until victory a-move... MARU!!!! Go watch something else? All three races have strategies that are very popular which fall under the criteria of 'waiting until composition, a-move, victory.' That's any aggressive roach/roach-hydra based play + any thing like a baneling bust, any mech, basically all Protoss builds in PvZ and PvT prior to LotV, plus a ton of stuff I haven't mentioned. There are plenty of strategies I personally don't like and units I don't enjoy using. So what? Nothing you're saying is a particular criticism of mech, just the entire game of SC2. Yes, but we are talking about mech right now so I am talking against mech, not against the rest. Why do you still move from "mech topic" to "boring strategies in SC2"? Like if your neighbor is beating a woman you can do it too or what? If I were to say I don't like coffee because it's hot while drinking a nice steaming cup of tea, wouldn't it strike you as a tad inconsistent? None of the problems you mentioned you have with mech are unique to mech. In fact, they happen to be very common across all the races and popular strategies in SC2. If you actually don't like mech for the reasons you state, go watch and play another game since those are objections to the game as a whole not to mech specifically. Just as the hotness of the coffee isn't a unique trait to the coffee. As I said, this is purely an issue of bias and personal preference. You just don't like mech for no reason other than preference. Which is fine, not everything is for everybody. Don't play it, and root for the other guy when a Terran player mechs. But that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with mech. There are strategies and units I don't like as well. That's life. Mech is disliked by the highest number of players/viewers and thus would be best for the player/viewership size if mech is not viable. Or do we need to appeal to the minority at the cost of the majority? how do you know? did you make a poll to see how many people like mech and how many don't? Or do you just assume that everyone feels the same way about mech as you? Seeing how many people demand mech to be viable, even in korea, it's pretty clear that a lot of people like mech. strawpoll.me random strawpoll I found Obviously you will say it's not relevant since it was before swarm host removal and the mech playstyle changed so drastically after that
LOTV mech doesn't exist yet so there is no point to talk about how people feel about lotv mech
No I didn't base my opinion on this poll
Do you think protoss is not the most hated race in sc2?
Do you think it's something you need statistics to assert rather than something commonly accepted?
Mech is like that too :D
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Oh right I forgot to comment about the update at all :D
I would hope they don't nerf spores since roach ravager is fun to play.
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On January 15 2016 00:01 DinoMight wrote:
The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
Yep. I used to think buffing the tank was the right idea, but the tankivac is pretty crucial for mobility. Like it or not, it's an expensive combination that also comes with an opportunity cost: it's micro intensive, as all transport + siege unit combinations are, and they aren't healing during this process.
This is why I included the hellbat as an issue; it just can't keep up with LOTV's speed and new AoE damage sources. This is the mech mineral dump unit, mind you. It has been completely reduced to a TvZ early game timing push, where even then, it's quickly phased out for marines. It's sub-optimal in every other context. It doesn't need to be as good or as versatile as marines, but it does need to be better than it is now. Being able to share upgrades with tanks is part of the trade-off anyway.
I think it would go a long way to give it a short burst of speed "the super waddle" and/or making the transformation time much faster. Also, we can consider allowing it to continue moving while its undergoing the transformation animation (still can't shoot until transformation is completed). I also think Blizzard should at least consider reversing the cargo space nerf to permit powerful hellbat drops right on top of enemy armies at the risk of losing medivacs. By no means do I believe all these suggestions should be implemented together, but I do believe something should be done.
I think helping the hellbat engage faster would go a long way. Tanks + improved hellbats + widow mine + medivac could be a potent anti-ground force with decent mobility, micromanagement, harass capacity, and aggression.
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On January 15 2016 01:17 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 00:01 DinoMight wrote:
The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
Yep. I used to think buffing the tank was the right idea, but the tankivac is pretty crucial for mobility. Like it or not, it's an expensive combination that also comes with an opportunity cost: it's micro intensive, as all transport + siege unit combinations are, and they aren't healing during this process. This is why I included the hellbat as an issue; it just can't keep up with LOTV's speed and new AoE damage sources. This is the mech mineral dump unit, mind you. It has been completely reduced to a TvZ early game timing push, where even then, it's quickly phased out for marines. It's sub-optimal in every other context. It doesn't need to be as good or as versatile as marines, but it does need to be better than it is now. Being able to share upgrades with tanks is part of the trade-off anyway. I think it would go a long way to give it a short burst of speed "the super waddle" and/or making the transformation time much faster. Also, we can consider allowing it to continue moving while its undergoing the transformation animation (still can't shoot until transformation is completed). I also think Blizzard should at least consider reversing the cargo space nerf to permit powerful hellbat drops right on top of enemy armies at the risk of losing medivacs. By no means do I believe all these suggestions should be implemented together, but I do believe something should be done. I think helping the hellbat engage faster would go a long way. Tanks + improved hellbats + widow mine + medivac could be a potent anti-ground force with decent mobility, micromanagement, harass capacity, and aggression.
The Hellbat will always be an anti-light / meat shield unit though. What mech needs is something that can kill NON light units in the early-mid game.
I think this is the space the Cyclone needs to occupy. Give Terran something that can fight 15 Stalkers or 20 Roaches without needing to be sieged and supported by Hellbats...
I want to see Terrans pushing out with Hellion/Cyclone/Widow mine and being able to trade *SOMEWHAT effectively. If you can only ever fight when tanks are sieged and your opponent doesn't just let you march over to his base then by definition you have to turtle to a huuuuge number of Tanks and leapfrog...
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On January 15 2016 01:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 01:17 p68 wrote:On January 15 2016 00:01 DinoMight wrote:
The problem with a straight up tank buff is that people will just use it with bio and not mech....
You have to make the whole composition well rounded enough to be viable. And I think mech lacks a bit in that early firepower/mobility department to be playable competitively.
Yep. I used to think buffing the tank was the right idea, but the tankivac is pretty crucial for mobility. Like it or not, it's an expensive combination that also comes with an opportunity cost: it's micro intensive, as all transport + siege unit combinations are, and they aren't healing during this process. This is why I included the hellbat as an issue; it just can't keep up with LOTV's speed and new AoE damage sources. This is the mech mineral dump unit, mind you. It has been completely reduced to a TvZ early game timing push, where even then, it's quickly phased out for marines. It's sub-optimal in every other context. It doesn't need to be as good or as versatile as marines, but it does need to be better than it is now. Being able to share upgrades with tanks is part of the trade-off anyway. I think it would go a long way to give it a short burst of speed "the super waddle" and/or making the transformation time much faster. Also, we can consider allowing it to continue moving while its undergoing the transformation animation (still can't shoot until transformation is completed). I also think Blizzard should at least consider reversing the cargo space nerf to permit powerful hellbat drops right on top of enemy armies at the risk of losing medivacs. By no means do I believe all these suggestions should be implemented together, but I do believe something should be done. I think helping the hellbat engage faster would go a long way. Tanks + improved hellbats + widow mine + medivac could be a potent anti-ground force with decent mobility, micromanagement, harass capacity, and aggression. The Hellbat will always be an anti-light / meat shield unit though. What mech needs is something that can kill NON light units in the early-mid game. I think this is the space the Cyclone needs to occupy. Give Terran something that can fight 15 Stalkers or 20 Roaches without needing to be sieged and supported by Hellbats...
Oh, definitely. I'm of the opinion that the hellbat doesn't actually trade too badly vs non-light units, though, as long as it's permitted to close distance in a timely manner. And it has micro-potential that allows it to trade more efficiently, being that it needs to be moved within range 1 of ranged units in order to splash adjacent units consistently.
So, perhaps a combination of helping hellbats close distance and dodge AoE, alongside some cyclone support could go a long way.
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EPT
