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On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote:
Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster.
While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
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On January 15 2016 01:37 Tankz123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote:
Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster. While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
I think it would help mech A LOT.
Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers.
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Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby.
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On January 15 2016 01:48 ejozl wrote:
Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby.
If you remove the bio tag, you kill the purpose of the medivac beyond just moving tanks around. If you keep tankivacs in the game, keeping hellbats bio allows for some synergy, otherwise, you're just doing even more to encourage marine/tank in every circumstance.
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On January 15 2016 02:10 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 01:48 ejozl wrote:
Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby. If you remove the bio tag, you kill the purpose of the medivac beyond just moving tanks around. If you keep tankivacs in the game, keeping hellbats bio allows for some synergy, otherwise, you're just doing even more to encourage marine/tank in every circumstance.
Yeah, but the object of this would be to add in some design and actually make the units cool again, together with possibly having Mech come back. The bio tag on Hell bats always was a very forced solution. If we make Mech into Bio, then it's viable lol <.<
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That dream needs to become real life
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On January 15 2016 02:12 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 02:10 p68 wrote:On January 15 2016 01:48 ejozl wrote:
Could be kind of cool to see a redesign of the Hellbat. Something like: Remove Bio tag, reduce cargo space to 2, and give an upgrade transformer upgrade that allow Vikings&Hellbats to transform while still moving at the speed of the slowest of the two modes. Then also give the Thor some overload ability where it goes stationary for 3-5 seconds and starts shooting with additional weapons at everything nearby. If you remove the bio tag, you kill the purpose of the medivac beyond just moving tanks around. If you keep tankivacs in the game, keeping hellbats bio allows for some synergy, otherwise, you're just doing even more to encourage marine/tank in every circumstance. Yeah, but the object of this would be to add in some design and actually make the units cool again, together with possibly having Mech come back. The bio tag on Hell bats always was a very forced solution. If we make Mech into Bio, then it's viable lol <.<
I think you can improve the hellbat while retaining the bio tag. It's clearly in a bad spot even with the tag, at the moment. And tankivacs are a vital component of giving mech mobility (also discourages turtling more-so than other proposed solutions), while still having more positional play than straight bio. I think removing the tankivac is off the table and medivacs are too costly to consider for the sole purpose of just moving tanks.
Retaining the bio tag doesn't make mech into bio, in my opinion. Philosophically, I think bio is defined by potent multi-prong harass, sniping key buildings, and avoiding too many direct engagements. Mech, on the other hand, would have less potent drops, more vulnerable flanks, but better head-on aggression. It's not so unlike the differences between muta/ling/baneling and roach/ravager, I believe.
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People need to understand Mech =/= Turtle and the mech we saw in SC2 vs Swarmhosts is not what most people who want Mech to be viable want to see.
If anybody has any solid additional points or good example VODs, please let me know. I may write a nice explanatory post in the coming days.
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On January 15 2016 01:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 01:37 Tankz123 wrote:On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote:
Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster. While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc) Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU. Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure. I think it would help mech A LOT. Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers.
@roaches banshee? tanks? they both shit all over roaches if you have a wall, ofc if you try and rush right into cyclones you're gonna have a bad time, but saying you've nothing against roaches is really stupid.
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I feel these changes will just patch current problems while creating more. Protoss still lacks of a solid core unit, adepts are just good in early and expecially vs zergs they don't have a role outside harassing at early stages.
I would like to see something more consistant than this. They should change some general design or mechanic to make protoss being less gimmiky and more a solid race.
Also PO nerf is huge vs early zerg attack strategies (ling drop, pool first, etc.)
Hope these changes kick in soon so GSL+SSL could be a test field
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If they only now have a system in place for gathering feedback from Korean pro-gamers then what exactly have they been doing for the last eleven years of Starcraft II development during which the Korean pro-scene was highly relevant?
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I don't understand why they haven't patched PO and PB yet... There's not a single soul who thinks it shouldn't be done.
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On January 15 2016 03:24 Tankz123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 01:47 DinoMight wrote:On January 15 2016 01:37 Tankz123 wrote:On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote:
Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster. While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc) Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU. Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure. I think it would help mech A LOT. Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers. @roaches banshee? tanks? they both shit all over roaches if you have a wall, ofc if you try and rush right into cyclones you're gonna have a bad time, but saying you've nothing against roaches is really stupid.
Dude, try taking your 3rd against Roach/Ravager with Tanks at the same time as bio takes its 3rd.
That's what I'm trying to say. Mech has strong units but their immobility means they can't be out on the map to secure bases as fast as they need to be to keep up with the other races.
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Good thing they referenced that dream, otherwise I wouldn't have believed it!
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Lets make this really simple for you Blizzard:
The exact reasons why mech struggles:
- Lack of reliable and easy to get anti-air without compromising anti-ground.
- Hard to establish good defence early on without falling behind considerably.
- Tech switching in general is way too hard for terran for how their units work against opponents tech switches.
- Upgrade dividing.
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On January 15 2016 04:53 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 03:24 Tankz123 wrote:On January 15 2016 01:47 DinoMight wrote:On January 15 2016 01:37 Tankz123 wrote:On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote:
Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster. While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc) Terran needs something that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU. Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure. I think it would help mech A LOT. Right now they are just too cost/infrastructure prohibitive to build. By the time you have 4 Cyclones and nothing else Zerg can have like 20 roaches and Protoss 10+ Stalkers. @roaches banshee? tanks? they both shit all over roaches if you have a wall, ofc if you try and rush right into cyclones you're gonna have a bad time, but saying you've nothing against roaches is really stupid. Dude, try taking your 3rd against Roach/Ravager with Tanks at the same time as bio takes its 3rd. That's what I'm trying to say. Mech has strong units but their immobility means they can't be out on the map to secure bases as fast as they need to be to keep up with the other races.
You do know bio suffer from the same issue on this department right? If you want, you can easily just get a medivac + tank and take your 3rd without issue. Taking a 3rd vs roach/ravager isnt really a problem unless you're behind already (or you play on terrace, which is an issue in itself) its dealing with the cost efficiency + mass expanding of zergs once they get vipers out. Since there isnt really a suitable counter for the viper (good luck ever getting ghost near them) and the fact that they can easily much up cyclones/vikings or whateverr they can hit them with abducts/bomb, trading with zergs become harder and harder as the game goes on. if you however do proceed to max out on a good tank army with some cyclone/lib/viking support, you'll easily deal with ground stuff... right till you try and attack, in which case you're pretty screwed again.
buffing the cyclone isnt gonna let you take your 3rd faster vs roach/ravager, because either you're simply gonna roll over them due to the design of the unit itself, or its gonna be bad. balancing the cyclone is pretty damn difficult due to its nature, but if they want to do anything, i personally think reducing either its supply to 2 and rescale the dmg/cost of it, increase its health by, say 30 or so or just reduce its cost by 25-50 gas.
edit - Another thing that would be really nice would be to reduce the cost of the armory to 100/50 so getting double upgrades isnt such an insane investment.
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GL to protoss without economics ahead. Buff to toss incoming soon.
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Cylones are bad against Zerglings. Really bad. Mass Cyclones won't be imba against Zerg, I think bcause if Zerg sees them he can start making lings to trap them. Whe used with Hellions it will require micro from both sides.
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Please DK, make parasitic bomb be as visible as seeker missile (turn unit GREEN!) :\
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On January 15 2016 05:54 DinoMight wrote:
Cylones are bad against Zerglings. Really bad. Mass Cyclones won't be imba against Zerg, I think bcause if Zerg sees them he can start making lings to trap them. Whe used with Hellions it will require micro from both sides.
Wasn't the issue roach/ravager and not lings? Ofc the cyclone is bad against lings, it would be terrible if the unit had no counter at all. having played a lot of cyclone/hellion, im pretty convinced that if you buffed them anymore they'd shit on any zerg army if the player has any kind of decent micro.
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EPT
