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On January 15 2016 01:37 Tankz123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 23:58 DinoMight wrote:
Proposed cyclone changes:
Make it 125/75
Make it not require a tech lab
Remove the cooldown on the lock ability or shorten it so you can keep killing stuff after you kill something :p
No changes to damage/hp/speed
Mech needs a fighting unit that comes before giant lines of siege tanks are available. The reason it can't move out and has to turtle for so long is that unsieged tanks suck and mech has nothing that can straight up fight roaches or mass gateway units early on.
With a cyclone buff to make them more accessible/slightly better mech will be able to move out and potentially secure bases faster. While im all for a cyclone buff, this change here would just make them borderline retarded. making mech viable in its current state would mean that pretty much every race would need an overhaul, as there's so much shit atm that reck's mech (vipers, bl's, ravagers, immortals, flying tanks, libs, etc)
I've always thought todo be actually too exagerated, mech actually has a very strong force if well stablished and even if things like vipers and other stuff are really strong I think bits not so much like that.
Mechs needs a cheaper/weaker cyclone to allow them todo tech up.
A cheaper armory (100/50)
And cheaper upgrades, I think reducing the cost/time of blue flame, cyclone damage and banshee speed. They are the core mid game/map control/harass of mech. Also they are never researched when playing bio wich helps mech and doesn't buffs bio
Lastly I think making tanks unsiege when picked up but buff damage/speed attack could be good bit I'm not sure if it would be the best way to go
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Oh also blizzard needs to recombine mech and air upgrades. Pretty ridiculous to have to have 3 armories to upgrade units. Most games right now you literally just upgrade either ground or air weapons and then you have to wait 5+ min to have 3/0 on your other set of units meanwhile your opponent is 3/3 during all that time lol.
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On January 15 2016 06:02 Tankz123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 05:54 DinoMight wrote:
Cylones are bad against Zerglings. Really bad. Mass Cyclones won't be imba against Zerg, I think bcause if Zerg sees them he can start making lings to trap them. Whe used with Hellions it will require micro from both sides. Wasn't the issue roach/ravager and not lings? Ofc the cyclone is bad against lings, it would be terrible if the unit had no counter at all. having played a lot of cyclone/hellion, im pretty convinced that if you buffed them anymore they'd shit on any zerg army if the player has any kind of decent micro.
Yeah, I was addressing a comment saying they would be too strong against Roaches... Zerg could respond to Cyclones by making more Lings.
I think they *SHOULD have a weakness to lings.
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On January 15 2016 06:07 avilo wrote:
Oh also blizzard needs to recombine mech and air upgrades. Pretty ridiculous to have to have 3 armories to upgrade units. Most games right now you literally just upgrade either ground or air weapons and then you have to wait 5+ min to have 3/0 on your other set of units meanwhile your opponent is 3/3 during all that time lol.
Not really Avilo. Protoss needs a forge for ground units but they need to get a Fleet Beacon to upgrade their air units. Zerg air and ground are separate too.
Going mech you need 3x3 upgrades for all your shit to be max upgraded. The other races can't do that. Zerg needs at least 4x3, Protoss 5x3.
3x armory
2x Spire + 2x evo (assuming melee OR range) + Infestation pit + Hive
2x cyber + 3x forge + Fleet Beacon + Twilight
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Mech is slow.
Bio is fast.
Mech has weakness. Just like bio.
You guys are trying to convert Mech into an invulnerable, all-around composition.
You want mech good against air.
You want mech fast.
You want mech good in the early game.
Factory-only units suck, ant it is good that they do. Just as Barracks-only units sucks as themselves.
Besides, mech is horrible. 60+ minutes of slugfest. No thanks.
Blizzard, please do not buff mech.
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It's obvious why mech hurts, they even know it. Flying siege tanks is not the way to go for this game. It makes marine tank way too versatile in TvT, and it's dissatisfying to watch the ridiculous "action" all game until it invariably ends with a random doom drop. Rather buff the tank in other ways. I like that terran has the option to play defensibly as well. I may be one of the few, but I found intense enjoyment in Flash's latest TvT style in HotS.
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Just replace Widow Mines with Terror Drones. Mech would at least be crazy fun. 
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The goal should be to somehow let players incorporate bio units into mech play just as bio play incorporates mech units. As a mineral dump, weak anti air and weak meat shield marines fit well.
Maybe this is worth a consideration:
Allow terrans to upgrade marine shield at tech labs that either are connected to barracks or factories.
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On January 15 2016 07:25 Big J wrote:Just replace Widow Mines with Terror Drones. Mech would at least be crazy fun.
No. Fuck you.
:p
EDIT - If Terran gets Terror Drones I want Desolators. No more dealing with bio muhahaha.
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Reposting in here as directed by mods:
Hi!
In the latest community feedback update DK specifically requested advice from the community on how to make mech work. Seeing as they liked the -1 vs light adept suggestion that I (and perhaps a few others) suggested, I thought why not propose some changes to help make mech more viable.
I'll keep it really brief. Warren Buffet always said that if you can't explain something simply then you don't understand it
I think the biggest problem facing mech right now is that it has absolutely no early game map presence, which prevents it from taking bases at the rate needed to keep up with the other races. For example:
TvZ: Zerg makes 15-20 roaches. How does T take his 3rd? Banshees? Gradually pushing out with sieged Tanks? With the faster rate at which bases mine out in LotV this is too slow. Even if the Terran is able to secure his base, he has no map presence left at all to deny the Zerg being even more greedy.
TvP: What does a Meching Terran do about 15 Stalkers sitting outside his natural denying his 3rd? Absolutely nothing, that's what. He's got to slowly push out with Siege Tanks as the Protoss takes his 3rd, 4th, and makes Tempests.
Solution:
Here is what I think can fix mech using the fewest possible changes.
1) Remove the tech lab requirement for the Cyclone and make it cheaper, say 125/75(100).
Terran needs something BESIDES sieged Tanks that can fight Roaches if they want to mech. Cyclones would be able to trade well against Roaches provided they're microed well, and the Zerg player would need to use his Zerglings well to surround them. So you introduce Ling/Roach vs Hellion/Cyclone in the early-mid game as a micro battle between the two players. I think that could be really good for the MU.
Against Protoss, Cyclones would be good defensively against a bunch of Gateway units attacking, but they still wouldn't be broken offensively simply because you couldn't just YOLO up his ramp into his expansion, where you lose vision and wander into Photon Overcharge. So they allow the Meching player to defend himself and take a faster third perhaps without needing a billion siege tanks. And Protoss can scout this and go for Blink as a counter to defend himself or keep applying pressure.
2) Change parasitic bomb to not stack.
This can't be said enough. As it is, Mech needs Viking support and you can not allow one spell on the Viper to stop tanks from shooting and the other to instantly kill all anti-air. Reducing the damage is not enough, as simply adding one more Viper will have the same effect. Terran needs to be able to reasonably micro against PB, especially since Vikings are not as agile as Muta/Phoenixes.
TLDR; small groups of tanks aren't good. Mech needs another unit to fill the gap until Terran can get the infrastructure in place to make large groups of Tanks (which are really good). The Cyclone can fill this gap without being OP simply with a cost and infrastructure requirement reduction. With added map presence early in the game, mech can avoid falling behind economically and be a viable composition.
(Final note: really don't think the game needs a 100% overhaul for mech to be playable like people advocate all the time. And we're more likely to get something from Blizzard if we ask for small, SIMPLE change to as few things as possible.)
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On January 15 2016 07:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 07:25 Big J wrote:Just replace Widow Mines with Terror Drones. Mech would at least be crazy fun. No. Fuck you. :p EDIT - If Terran gets Terror Drones I want Desolators. No more dealing with bio muhahaha.
Maybe you should also just want Terror Drones. Just think about what a Terror Drone would do with Ultralisks :D
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On January 15 2016 07:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 07:38 DinoMight wrote:On January 15 2016 07:25 Big J wrote:Just replace Widow Mines with Terror Drones. Mech would at least be crazy fun. No. Fuck you. :p EDIT - If Terran gets Terror Drones I want Desolators. No more dealing with bio muhahaha. Maybe you should also just want Terror Drones. Just think about what a Terror Drone would do with Ultralisks :D
I played Allies ONLY BECAUSE that way Terror Drones wouldn't kill all my workers :p
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Getting back to this could someone help me out and create the following test map?
Cyclones cost 125/100
Don't require tech lab
I have literally no idea how to do this lol. Used to be good with the BW editor but SC2 editor is Greek to me.
Any of the ladder maps will do, or make it an extension so it can be used with any map.
Thanks!
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The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go:
Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
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I don't get the point of the pylon "nerf". Seems like it'll be the exact same as a bunch of pylons shooting at you. I guess the reaper won't immediately die the moment the msc comes out.
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On January 15 2016 06:07 avilo wrote:
Oh also blizzard needs to recombine mech and air upgrades. Pretty ridiculous to have to have 3 armories to upgrade units. Most games right now you literally just upgrade either ground or air weapons and then you have to wait 5+ min to have 3/0 on your other set of units meanwhile your opponent is 3/3 during all that time lol.
You just got served by DinoMight
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On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote:
The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go:
Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine?
This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz
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How about giving back Thors the ThorZain Strike Cannon. Make it a bit more responsive, but have it not stun the target for no apparent reason. Might even be another answer to the new Ultralisk ^^
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On January 15 2016 11:55 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote:
The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go:
Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine? This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz
If lurkers are good vs bio they would be broken vs protoss you can't work around this without patch like for the swarmhost or by buffing protoss units that counter lurkers to an insane degree. You could also make the tech time to lurker not be longer than the tech time to battle cruiser but naaaah let's buff it's range and damage some more
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On January 15 2016 15:56 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 11:55 Foxxan wrote:On January 15 2016 10:05 Heyjoray wrote:
The mods seem to think that having 5 different discussion in a single thread is a good idea, so lets go:
Why is there absolutly zero interest having lurker in ZvT? In that Community Feedback they mentioned that roach/ravager is not supposed to be the future for every matchup. Instead they want banelings to be the future. Again? Wasn't there already an entire expansion bane>marine? This is another potential that could be good for the game if lurker was a better unit overall in tvz If lurkers are good vs bio they would be broken vs protoss you can't work around this without patch like for the swarmhost or by buffing protoss units that counter lurkers to an insane degree. You could also make the tech time to lurker not be longer than the tech time to battle cruiser but naaaah let's buff it's range and damage some more
Lurkers are actually pretty good versus Bio. The thing is 99% of zergs aren't even trying them out and trying to rush to Ultra's.
So until it becomes standard for Terran's to get their ghost timings 100% refined, this will be the case before experimentation goes into Lurkers.
I use Lurkers zvt and can tell you they are good versus Bio. The thing is, people seem to think going lurkers = rush them or only go lurkers and leave them by themselves. That is not the way to use lurkers and is why people will think their "bad".
Versus a standard bio composition Lurkers that are in a good position with ling/bane support do just fine against bio. You are correct though that if you just leave the Lurkers by themselves they get rekt.
I have beaten plenty of GM's with my style as well.
TLDR: Zergs don't know how to use Lurkers correctly or when to get them. They are vastly underrated versus Bio.
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EPT
