On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
Holy fuck people need to fucking get this straight right now because i hear this argument and see it everywhere.
"ZOMG IF YOU BUFF NERF THIS THAT IT'LL CREATE TURTLE MECH." WHAT THE HELL?!
You realize the game by default anyone in the game any race can turtle with any style. Regardless of whether it's buffed or nerfed any player can decide to turtle hardcore. Buffing mech so that you can make anti-air units that shoot up that allow you to go attack and trade units with your opponent doesn't change literally anything about turtle style.
If someone is going to turtle, they are going to do it regardless. In LOTV if you turtle, you're doing it across 5-6 bases which is even more difficult than in HOTS.
It's not justification to keep mech terrible and mech anti-air terrible claiming "but it'll make turtle mech better!" Not really. Turtle mech won't fucking change because it's the only default way to play the game regardless. But it'll be so much healthier for the game if mech is given ways to attack across the map and promote action and promote your opponent building GROUND UNITS to trade with you rather than him just sitting there and spamming 10+ tempest/carrier/liberator/broodlord.
Please, everyone fucking stop this argument "omfg if we buff mech it'll make turtle mech godly!" Turtle mech already is the only way to play the fucking game lol.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
This is probably the most selfish comment I've seen on internet over the last few months. This comment comes from and defines a Zerg player who loves to play the "if I get there, you lose and you deserve it" game. You must have been the first and last one to defend the Broodlord/Infestor bullshit. I'm amazed by the lack of self reflection you are able to pull off here.
he's a decent zerg player who stopped playing because of things like SH turtling, just saying
I know very well where he is comming from. I've been hanging out on these forums from the very beginning. Being "decent" doesn't give you a free ticket to spam your own bullshit expecting everyone to lay down to your knees just because...
Ah yeah sure, it just seemed pretty dumb to claim he was a big defender of bullshit or insta win styles if you remotely knew him, so I assumed you didnt
quitting because of SHs is a pretty clear indicator for being a defender of insta win styles because that was far from being an insta win style. but now with buffed ultras and parasitic bomb he's of course back.
I'm guessing you missed the part where I said bullshit OR insta win styles
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran.
Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate?
Quit being a dick. First of all I've said that "mech is said not to be viable" referencing other people on this forum. Second, I have a lot of experience playing AND watching StarCraft 2 to comfortably stand by that statement.
Third, it fucking makes sense doesn't it? A unit that can make tanks not shoot and kills Vikings in an AoE?
On January 14 2016 06:01 crazedrat wrote: Mech is strong in TvZ right now, you people just suck at going mech.
Generally unless someone prefaces their argument with "in my own games" they're talking about professional games. For the most part your own games are irrelevant because there's always something else you or your opponent could have done better that would have drastically changed the outcome of the game.
The reason Mech generally is said NOT to be viable TvZ is because the Viper provides incredible utility against both Tanks (Blinding Cloud) and air units (Parasitic Bomb).
Show me the pro game you're talking about. I don't think you have a pro game in mind. You are thinking of your own games. Even if you have one random pro game your commentary is still ignorant and meaningless. Mech is cost efficient, this game tends to go long and become a squeeze .... I look at all the buffs to the starport, big buffs to the starport, and vipers are not some magic bullet. Mech is strong now. Yeah you say "let's ignore the starport". Why would you ignore the starport?
Lol I play Protoss mate.. sometimes bio Terran.
Well then your commentary is pretty useless isn't it mate?
Quit being a dick. First of all I've said that "mech is said not to be viable" referencing other people on this forum. Second, I have a lot of experience playing AND watching StarCraft 2 to comfortably stand by that statement.
Third, it fucking makes sense doesn't it? A unit that can make tanks not shoot and kills Vikings in an AoE?
Hey, brilliant one. At the end of HOTS Mech was very strong in TvZ, and blinding cloud was around then, wasn't it? Well that hasn't changed. Now the starport has been very buffed, and we have parasitic bomb... parasitic bomb is not a magic solution, it hits one unit, you spread the unit out... you have Thors hitting the vipers, you have liberators and vikings. Last time I checked they were buffing Thors AA damage to ignore armored too. Your banshees are fast, you dont even need large numbers... Go ahead and add ghosts. Actually parasitic bomb in TvZ mech is not nearly as strong as I hear everyone saying it is. Let's go over the things Mech has added in LOTV: -cyclones (none of you know how to use them yet) -liberators -banshee speed -BC can warp anywhere Hmmm Actually now the maps squeeze together more quickly it helps mech believe it or not, I hear everyone saying the econ change hurt mech but no, it didn't, you want the map to mine out as a mech player. Good time for mech.
On January 14 2016 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote: Nerfing one part of PO and buffing another is not, "a nerf". Its a buff in some situation and a nerf in others. Which means its a change or a patch. Most definitely not a nerf, you are not on the same page as everyone else. Because everyone else wants a PO nerf, not a PO change.
When you use two pylon overcharges at 25, you have the ability to deal more damage than when you use one pylon overcharge at 50. When you bait two pylon overcharges at 25, you're able to produce a lot less results for it than when you bait a pylon overcharge at 50, because the next overcharge will be ready in 50 energy, not in 25.
Blizzard just ignore mech, only a select few players want to turtle mech let's please not give it to them as that will ruin the tvz match up if that becomes a strong style.
Solid comment from the guy who is a fan of the Ultralisk w/ +2 armor, and who doesn't think it is a-move'ish at all.
/s
Maybe you could consider that mech doesn't have to be boring if tank is strong enough and you are spread over multiple bases?.
But he is right. Blizzard is likely to mess up big time and let the matchup broken for several months before they make mech viable (or likely revert to current state).
With the new economy + buff to harass options, the probability is much less. I think the fear of lack of diversity is much more significant. Further, with a counter to mass terran air, sky terran is unlikely to be as strong vs Zerg as it previously was.
This is an example of what mech could be when the core army consists of strong positional units and yoo need to defend multiple locations at once + opponent has tools to army trade against you.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
Holy fuck people need to fucking get this straight right now because i hear this argument and see it everywhere.
"ZOMG IF YOU BUFF NERF THIS THAT IT'LL CREATE TURTLE MECH." WHAT THE HELL?!
You realize the game by default anyone in the game any race can turtle with any style. Regardless of whether it's buffed or nerfed any player can decide to turtle hardcore. Buffing mech so that you can make anti-air units that shoot up that allow you to go attack and trade units with your opponent doesn't change literally anything about turtle style.
If someone is going to turtle, they are going to do it regardless. In LOTV if you turtle, you're doing it across 5-6 bases which is even more difficult than in HOTS.
It's not justification to keep mech terrible and mech anti-air terrible claiming "but it'll make turtle mech better!" Not really. Turtle mech won't fucking change because it's the only default way to play the game regardless. But it'll be so much healthier for the game if mech is given ways to attack across the map and promote action and promote your opponent building GROUND UNITS to trade with you rather than him just sitting there and spamming 10+ tempest/carrier/liberator/broodlord.
Please, everyone fucking stop this argument "omfg if we buff mech it'll make turtle mech godly!" Turtle mech already is the only way to play the fucking game lol.
I actually really agree with this.
If you want to turtle you will turtle regardless.
Just look at this stuff (made by TLs very own strategy team)
What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
That is really the problem here. Always has been. Blizzard has been unable to see the problems for themselves, and thus the fix is suggested months in advance by the community, but Blizzard doesn't know who to listen to and it takes them forever to figure things out for themselves.
This game needs a new design team so bad that actually understands the game they are working on. The squeaky wheel (loud whiners) seem to always get the grease, at the expense of real imbalance issues.
Protoss has a 41% winrate versus Zerg right now, confirmed by both the current season GSL winrates and Aligulac. That is a real problem, it is worst win rate Protoss or Zerg has ever had in that match up. But no changes? Just some vague talk about maps?
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
there is a way to ask for feedback without saying: "I have no idea what to do please give me some sugestions"
I'm happy to see a lot of interesting discussions about mech! Some petty arguing as well, but it's not too bad! Despite composing the majority of the Terran ground arsenal, mech/factory units are kind of in a niche spot, for the most part. Limited gameplay synergy and zero upgrade synergy with bio just makes it sting all-the-more.
Still see some of the same tired old arguments that don't appreciate the asymmetry of the game or design differences between the races (e.g. "BUT PROTOSS PLAYERS DON'T WHINE THAT THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO ROBO ONLY!"). No matter how many times these get addressed, they stick around. If you're anti-mech, at least put up a good reason to be.
I wanted to add that I don't think players are expecting for mech to be viable in all match-ups. One person commented "what if Muta/Ling/Baneling players demanded that?" (not that anyone was even making that demand...) Well, I'm glad they brought that composition up, because the difference is that mech doesn't have any viable matchups at the moment. Nothing, nada, zero. Slight difference, I know.
I want to reiterate that if Blizzard ends up deciding that mech play has no place in SC2, I hope they consider redistributing the upgrades while keeping it a total of five. I don't understand why having upgrade synergy between factory and starport is helpful right now. It'd be better to have one upgrade shared between factory/bio (for a total of three ground upgrades, two air upgrades), as it would encourage trickling in more factory units to form biomech in the mid/late game.
On January 14 2016 04:53 KeksX wrote: I personally agree with the "Ignore Mech" notion. At least in regards to the "pure mech" composition. I can't think of a single game where I faced pure mech and thought "Well, that was fun" afterwards. Actually those are the most frustrating games, even if I win. So Even if balanaced, it's neither fun to watch nor to play against mech.
Much rather see mech units being viable in combination with bio play. Add diversity instead of an alternative. In fact, I'd love to see that with all the races. Going "this one composition that will be my unit comp until the very end" is pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me currently.
Tech switching and having multiple units available instead of just a few that I selected in the early game is the most exciting thing for me.
The reason you've had this experience is because blizzard has always nerfed mech repeatedly and kept mech so bad that it's impossible to ever split up your army because tanks are so weak.
What that means is in order to play a mech game you basically have to sit there doing nothing until you have a critical enough mass of units to move on the map...and then when you have that critical mass of "mech" units your opponent now just builds mass air and the "meching" player has to sit there another 20-30 minutes massing their own air units because he can't attack since nothing from the factory can actually shoot up and kill units.
THAT is why you've had a terrible experience playing versus mech. If they address those issues (which they won't because they don't want to listen) then mech would be fun to play vs and play with.
I'm cynical because blizzard's interest in strategic diversity in SC2 has always come down to making random units faster and nerfing mech repeatedly any time it's iviable to the point it's unplayable or you have to turtle for 30 min to play it which is a catch-22 because no one including myself wants to be forced to sit in our base for 30 min with no aggro options at all.
There are two core issues with mech right now:
1) The siege tank does not zone or trade effectively versus any ground units in the game, especially in low numbers. It needs more damage back like it originally had. People including myself have done analysis on this for YEARS. There's literally a teamliquid thread on it from a few weeks ago that blizzard ignores/doesn't acknowledge. If they cared they'd talk about this, yet every time it's brought up they ignore it (purposely)?
2) MECH HAS NO ANTI-AIR FROM THE FACTORY. This shit has been said for years as well and blizzard continuously just ignores it or won't listen. This is the second reason mech games are always idiotic turtle only games because if my opponent starts making mass raven, mass carrier, mass tempest, or broodinfestor or even void rays there's literally nothing cost effective i can make from 10 factories. Widow mines are RNG, cyclones suck and have less health than a marauder because THEY WERE NERFED 5+ TIMES. Thor anti-air is absolute trash as well versus anything that's not a muta or a phoenix.
So if i have 15 tanks, hellions, cyclones, mines, and a badass mech army, and i move out on the goddamn map and my opponent decides he wants to build 4 tempest or 4 carriers guess what? His 20 or so supply completely nullifies my 140 supply mech army....and i have to go back to base, sit there and do nothing for half an hour while i spam vikings/liberators/ravens to be able to even play teh game anymore.
So...to blizzard please listen:
1) Make the siege tank stronger. Remove the shitty medivac drop that fucks up TvT so badly and is just overall stupid. Make the siege tank a THREAT like the liberator, something people should be afraid to engage, not just literally a move any random unit into and trade effectively like they do now.
2) Make cyclones/mines/thors better at fighting against air units. These units should be SUPER FUCKING STRONG against air so that if i go "mech" with 7+ factories and my opponent decides to be a bitch and build 4 tempests, i can just crank out 7-10 cyclone/thor from my factories instead of have to turtle for another half an hour building 6 starports and massing air units to fight his air when i wanna actually have an action packed game and fight my opponent with ground to ground units.
There you go. Will blizzard read this feedback? Maybe. Highly doubt they'll listen, been through this for 4+ years now, they refuse to listen to any feedback in regards to mech. So sorry if i'm not optimistic, blizzard will most likely find some inadvertent way to nerf mech more rather than address it =/
And you give no explanation how this will prevent that "terrible experience playing versus mech" as you call it yourself. Cool, you buff an alternative way to play Mech more aggressively. You also buff the shitass turtlestyle, because you can literally play the exact same way you do now, just with buffed tanks/cyclones/Thors. The 60supply of ground units that you have to accompany your air-deathball currently will just be stronger, so you may get away with 50supply instead and build even more ravens and liberators.
I've seen enough streams of you to know that one of your most frequent reasonings for not attacking is that you often say "the only way I can lose this game right now is if I attack and he gets a lucky *X*". How does this change? You just get an even better deathball if you "just buff" parts of the air/ground Mechball. So you have even more reason to "not attack right now, because it's the only way to lose".
Holy fuck people need to fucking get this straight right now because i hear this argument and see it everywhere.
"ZOMG IF YOU BUFF NERF THIS THAT IT'LL CREATE TURTLE MECH." WHAT THE HELL?!
You realize the game by default anyone in the game any race can turtle with any style. Regardless of whether it's buffed or nerfed any player can decide to turtle hardcore. Buffing mech so that you can make anti-air units that shoot up that allow you to go attack and trade units with your opponent doesn't change literally anything about turtle style.
If someone is going to turtle, they are going to do it regardless. In LOTV if you turtle, you're doing it across 5-6 bases which is even more difficult than in HOTS.
It's not justification to keep mech terrible and mech anti-air terrible claiming "but it'll make turtle mech better!" Not really. Turtle mech won't fucking change because it's the only default way to play the game regardless. But it'll be so much healthier for the game if mech is given ways to attack across the map and promote action and promote your opponent building GROUND UNITS to trade with you rather than him just sitting there and spamming 10+ tempest/carrier/liberator/broodlord.
Please, everyone fucking stop this argument "omfg if we buff mech it'll make turtle mech godly!" Turtle mech already is the only way to play the fucking game lol.
nope, players play what's good and viable. if turtle mech is shit noone will play it. if turtlemech is the best way to play we will se it a lot like at the end lf HotS.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
there is a way to ask for feedback without saying: "I have no idea what to do please give me some sugestions"
They know what they would do (and should do): not implement a stronger mech style. Given that this answer won't satisfy The Community, they're asking what would. Makes perfect sense to me.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. It was comical to watch, they don't know what they are doing, literally.
Regarding mech, I really think besides the tank overkillprevention / weakness of tanks in low numbers and the missing anti air of mech, another thing which could change mech to be more interesting and viable is to look at the raven. Yes i know it is not a mech unit, but this unit caused a lot of the problems with turtling mech.
For me the raven is the supposed to be the mech support unit.
The spells the raven has right now are all designed mainly for defensive and reactive usage, which is in my eyes a big part of the the turtle phenomen.
1. PDD is only useful if the enemy engages exactly where you place it, he can easily chose another location, it is very hard to place pdds well offensively bc the enemy can just retreat, this spell helps only if your army is actually around. (this spell got nerfed btw)
2. Basically the same applies to the seeker: the enemy can always run away. They are basically space control spells and there is very low offensive potential with this spell. It is most useful in huge fights where the enemy cannot retreat without huge losses. Thus mech cant split up itself, this means the seeker is only useful around your siegeline.
3. Auto turret got changed a bit, but its design is also still pretty useless in aggressive styles (in engagements overall) except in early game. It is also very hard to position Autoturrets in offensive fights without losing the ravens and can only be placed on literally free space (building collision)
If you compare those spells to spells like abduct, parasitic bomb, fungal, psi storm, emp,feedback, etc - you see that the raven has very little offensive potential. That together with the whole mech army being very passively causes even more turtle play in my eyes. I think if blizzard would try to redesign at least one spell of the raven towards a spell which could be used more aggressively, and more in symbiois with small mech armies, it would be very beneficial for mech.
I do not know how it could be done, but i think terran has overall very weak spellcasters for attacking, even the ghost is mainly for zoning and built as a reaction. I would like a spell like Irradiate or a spell which somehow buffs the speed of mech units a bit, or hell even repair it. Or just redesign pdd or seeker so it could actually help the attacking mech rather than the turtling mech.
I once had the idea that pdd would be a spell which is not casted on ground but on a unit. This unit would then drag all the projectiles in range towards itself and suffer the damage of them. Compared to the pdd now this would be a way more attractive spell for an aggressive terran than just a sitting pdd over your army. I even prefered the old seeker which was not dodgeable that easy but it still was dodgeable and it did almost always at least some damage.
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already know what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. They don't know what they are doing, literally.
So you would speak out against people who would be annoyed if Blizzard didn't ask for The Community's advice?
On January 14 2016 06:36 BronzeKnee wrote: What is so interesting to me is that Blizzard has to gather all this various feedback from all over because they fail to understand the game themselves.
What is truly amazing is that no matter what Blizzard do there will be a stupid notion raised against them. You are literally criticizing Blizzard for asking you what you think. What would be your post if Blizz didn't do that? "Sweet, they don't ask for my opinion, that's awesome!", or "I can't believe Blizzard isn't listening to The Community, that's such bullshit, The Community would know what to do"? Just ask yourself that...
Have you ever designed a game? I have. I love making and modding games, been doing it forever. And I lead. I get a good idea in my head and I lead. And I make what I want to play. And I play it, and I understand it.
That doesn't mean I don't ask for or listen to feedback. But generally I seek comments like "this is broken" and then I verify something is broken, and fix it. I don't ask around about ideas on how to fix things, because no one understands my games like I do. Occasionally, someone will give me a great idea, and I'll implement it. But I don't go out and seek huge feedback from everyone because I know already know what the game needs. It is usually pretty obvious.
Blizzard has never led except for the very start of SC2. And we saw what happened when they tried and failed miserably to balance basic one base timings like the 1-1-1 and 4 Gate. They don't know what they are doing, literally.
So you would speak out against people who would be annoyed if Blizzard didn't ask for The Community's advice?
I would not speak out against those people. Blizzard should know what they are doing and what the game needs. The problem is, they don't. You can give ideas to Blizzard without them asking, that is okay.
The proof is always in the pudding whether it comes to a build for ladder, designing a game or getting a girl to marry you. If it works, it works, and everyone knows it. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Everybody knows that too.
Blizzard's pudding is terrible despite all the people who tell us otherwise and try to sugar coat it. Blizzard plays politics to defend themselves rather than actually do their job.
We've suffered from terrible game design decisions and seemingly random ideas being thrown at the game because they don't know what they are doing and don't know what the game needs. Whoever let the Warhound leave a designer's head should have been fired. The fact it actually made it to the beta, and they wasted their time and money on it is a sign of failure at multiple levels. They spent months of time, valuable beta test time, trying to balance something that had no right to be in the game.
EPT
