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The Greatest Foreigners of All Time Part 3 - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
271 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 14 Next All
Solar424
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
United States4001 Posts
January 09 2016 17:50 GMT
#121
On January 10 2016 02:40 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2016 02:38 Ej_ wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:23 Elentos wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote:
On January 09 2016 16:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
List of players who did better in GSL than any foreigner ever:

(T)RainBOw
(T)Rain
(Z)July
(P)InCa
(T)TOP
(P)Genius
(Z)Sniper

Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time




Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO

aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.

nor does Sniper

Actually, that's true, Sniper was pretty sick for quite some time, even in team leagues.

Him and IdrA are probably the only progamers to make another progamer cry after beating them
A3th3r
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
United States319 Posts
January 09 2016 18:00 GMT
#122
My top-five greatest-of-all-time (GOAT) SC2 players list would be NesTea, BoXer, Jaedong, Day9, & Scarlett. Played a tournament where we had an old bucks vs. young guns format & I was crowned king of the KSL! That would be the Kariniemi Star League for those who are uninformed.
stale trite schlub
cheekymonkey
Profile Joined January 2014
France1387 Posts
January 09 2016 19:21 GMT
#123
On January 10 2016 02:50 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2016 02:40 Elentos wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:38 Ej_ wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:23 Elentos wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote:
On January 09 2016 16:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
List of players who did better in GSL than any foreigner ever:

(T)RainBOw
(T)Rain
(Z)July
(P)InCa
(T)TOP
(P)Genius
(Z)Sniper

Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time




Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO

aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.

nor does Sniper

Actually, that's true, Sniper was pretty sick for quite some time, even in team leagues.

Him and IdrA are probably the only progamers to make another progamer cry after beating them


Maru.
FuzzyJAM
Profile Joined July 2010
Scotland9300 Posts
January 09 2016 20:03 GMT
#124
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2016 16:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
List of players who did better in GSL than any foreigner ever:

(T)RainBOw
(T)Rain
(Z)July
(P)InCa
(T)TOP
(P)Genius
(Z)Sniper

Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time




Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO

Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.
Did you ever say Yes to a single joy?
Xoronius
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany6362 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-09 21:34:43
January 09 2016 21:34 GMT
#125
On January 10 2016 05:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote:
On January 09 2016 16:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
List of players who did better in GSL than any foreigner ever:

(T)RainBOw
(T)Rain
(Z)July
(P)InCa
(T)TOP
(P)Genius
(Z)Sniper

Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time




Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO

Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.

I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro).
NiGoL
Profile Joined September 2008
1868 Posts
January 09 2016 22:02 GMT
#126
Is snute the guy who used to play BW? Huk i remember from the keeper- days tho
http://www.twitter.com/NiGoLBW playing league on a competitive level
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-09 22:35:07
January 09 2016 22:34 GMT
#127
An other characteristic of Stephano was his flanks, there were very good and allowed him to play ultras when most of pro gamers (and even koreans) thought that the unit was pretty bad... I remember when he was laddering in the korean server, he played Bomber quite a few time and he said that he was basically the only guy who firstly reaches this level of play with them.
Well, that's just a little detail coming from a fan boy
showBanquo
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden182 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-09 22:37:51
January 09 2016 22:35 GMT
#128
A few things not mentioned in the article (about top 2)

A) Naniwa's gsl runs
B) Stephano's lack thereof
C) how that "weird small tournament-win" nani had he had to go through mvp in nestea close to their primes
D) how many of Stephano's tourn wins was achieved by stomping foreigners (and a few b-level koreans sometimes)
E) that the only time Nani and Stephano went head-to-head naniwa won

edit:

also naniwa beating innovation close to his prime, beating flash, getting to wcs 2014 decisively vs koreans.
quoting their tries to "come back" would be a bit lame, neither has impressed, but at the very least we can agree that there is not truth to Stephano's "I don't practice" thing. then he would have no problem winning now... well today 2016 he sucks
Naniwa - king of the north
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
January 09 2016 23:42 GMT
#129
On January 10 2016 07:35 showBanquo wrote:
A few things not mentioned in the article (about top 2)

A) Naniwa's gsl runs
B) Stephano's lack thereof
C) how that "weird small tournament-win" nani had he had to go through mvp in nestea close to their primes
D) how many of Stephano's tourn wins was achieved by stomping foreigners (and a few b-level koreans sometimes)
E) that the only time Nani and Stephano went head-to-head naniwa won

edit:

also naniwa beating innovation close to his prime, beating flash, getting to wcs 2014 decisively vs koreans.
quoting their tries to "come back" would be a bit lame, neither has impressed, but at the very least we can agree that there is not truth to Stephano's "I don't practice" thing. then he would have no problem winning now... well today 2016 he sucks


Well, Stephano was obviously quite trolling with his statement but he was already really strong in may 2011 and at this time (basically, I am almost certain that this is at this moment he developed his skills in SC2), he was in school with a very skeptical family about esport so he could not play as much.
Moreover, some casters (rotti or appolo I think) reported than he hadn't practiced since 4 or 5 days before NASL 3 i think and he was in bad conditions in the WCS EU.

Anyway, here my response:
A) Stephano's record in PL was good and the first GSL season is generally difficult for the foreigners (I don't remember very well but the first time Naniwa competes in GSL, he lost in the ro32 no?)
C) That was "just" two bo3 to win, 4 players... This is still quite a thing and his run in the main tournament was pretty great but still, it is not a big tournament.
D) I would say 2/4 (WCS eu, IPL 3, and in ESWC, he just has to play a bo3 against MKP) but overall, he competed with the vey best Koreans during his career, like naniwa but he has 4 premiers tournaments wins.
E) In this DH winter (and I would say in all DH overall) stephano played terribly, it was his slump just after his recent victories.

Moreover, I would say the impact in the meta has been considered by stuchiu and the perception of the Koreans: he is the only foreigner who has been this much praised by them and well, I honestly cannot say I am objective but at their peaks, I felt like Stephano reached a level that no other foreigner ever had, especially in zvp.

To conclude, yeah, currently, he sucks and NW 3 broke my heart badly. :D
FuzzyJAM
Profile Joined July 2010
Scotland9300 Posts
January 10 2016 01:47 GMT
#130
On January 10 2016 06:34 Xoronius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2016 05:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote:
On January 09 2016 16:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
List of players who did better in GSL than any foreigner ever:

(T)RainBOw
(T)Rain
(Z)July
(P)InCa
(T)TOP
(P)Genius
(Z)Sniper

Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time




Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO

Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.

I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro).

Yeah, I almost made a caveat on those two. But when Boxer made Ro4, TLO made Ro64 and no other foreigner did anything. You could argue it was too volatile then, but at the very least no foreigner could claim to be better than Boxer at the time. It also depends on how long a period you're judging by and so on, 'cause Jinro of course made the same run the next season. For Nada, he was mostly impressive all of 2011 - nothing to sneeze at, better than any foreigner. At the very least, people would still be going crazy about Boxer and Nada's performances if they were foreigners. It really was the peak of competition, and while you might argue x, y or z was the better player, the belittling of some is not fair.

The reason Stephano (for me) is the best player is not because he peaked higher relative to worldwide competition (he didn't), but because he did well in a fairly developed scene and game. I loved the start of WoL, but you have to remember it for the somewhat broken game it was, and the competition level for the BitByBit moments it had. When a game really isn't figured out, achievements can't really go towards proclaiming the all time great.
Did you ever say Yes to a single joy?
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-10 05:18:35
January 10 2016 05:17 GMT
#131
On January 10 2016 00:47 Laserist wrote:
Disgusting Liquid bias.
Definitely Snute < HuK all day every day. I know you guys like Snute but cmon?!?





The irony of this statement is too much
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
AceOfCakez
Profile Joined August 2012
United States72 Posts
January 10 2016 08:12 GMT
#132
This is a really great article. I love the research that went into it.
http://strangersarefriendswaitingtohappen.blogspot.com/
Advantageous
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
China1350 Posts
January 10 2016 10:51 GMT
#133
Who voted on this list? Stephano #1? Snute is #1, and Naniwa #2 (only because of his attitude).., But Stephano? #1? Definitely no.
"Because I am BossToss" -MC ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ raise your dongers ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ I'm sure that all of my fellow class mates viewed me as the Adonis of the Class of 2015 already. -Xenocider, EG, ieF 2013 Champion.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-10 11:03:24
January 10 2016 11:02 GMT
#134
On January 10 2016 19:51 Advantageous wrote:
Who voted on this list? Stephano #1? Snute is #1, and Naniwa #2 (only because of his attitude).., But Stephano? #1? Definitely no.

It's solely stuchiu's opinion. But he at least explains the reasoning for his ranking.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
cheekymonkey
Profile Joined January 2014
France1387 Posts
January 10 2016 11:13 GMT
#135
Stephano is #1. It is simply an untwistable objective fact, sorry.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12790 Posts
January 10 2016 11:47 GMT
#136
Of course, most premier wins, most wins vs top kor offline, most innovations in match ups, best earnings, etc... While not being as tryhard as NaNiwa which is bonus points (prob indicative of more talent).

WriterMaru
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
January 10 2016 13:42 GMT
#137
In five years, we will laugh hard about the 15 greatest LotV Foreigners when we compare with this list.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Xoronius
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany6362 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-10 14:07:51
January 10 2016 13:58 GMT
#138
On January 10 2016 10:47 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2016 06:34 Xoronius wrote:
On January 10 2016 05:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote:
On January 09 2016 16:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
List of players who did better in GSL than any foreigner ever:

(T)RainBOw
(T)Rain
(Z)July
(P)InCa
(T)TOP
(P)Genius
(Z)Sniper

Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time




Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO

Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.

I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro).

Yeah, I almost made a caveat on those two. But when Boxer made Ro4, TLO made Ro64 and no other foreigner did anything. You could argue it was too volatile then, but at the very least no foreigner could claim to be better than Boxer at the time. It also depends on how long a period you're judging by and so on, 'cause Jinro of course made the same run the next season. For Nada, he was mostly impressive all of 2011 - nothing to sneeze at, better than any foreigner. At the very least, people would still be going crazy about Boxer and Nada's performances if they were foreigners. It really was the peak of competition, and while you might argue x, y or z was the better player, the belittling of some is not fair.

The reason Stephano (for me) is the best player is not because he peaked higher relative to worldwide competition (he didn't), but because he did well in a fairly developed scene and game. I loved the start of WoL, but you have to remember it for the somewhat broken game it was, and the competition level for the BitByBit moments it had. When a game really isn't figured out, achievements can't really go towards proclaiming the all time great.

Idra and Loner both made the ro16, when Boxer made the ro4. I'm not trying to belittle Boxer or NaDa, but a comparism between an amout of players always leeds to "x>y". I'm arguing in favor of x here, not because I dislike y. Also, there is the fact, that both of them are much greater RTS-players than any foreigner, because of their bw-days anyway, so again, I don't try to belittle them, I just argue in favor of others.

So let's analyze Boxer first: During his run, he defeated Hapiness, CoreJJang, Loner and NaDa. I think, you can see, that the bracket was quite in his favor here. NaDa (and to a lesser extend also Loner back then) were the only really dangerous players, he faced there. I think if one of the top foreigners in that time (Idra, Jinro, maybe DIMAGA, White-Ra, Morrow) would have gotten the same bracket, it would not be entirely unrealistic, that they could have made the same run. When Boxer faced Nestea in the semis, he lost 0-4. As a comparism lets take Naniwas run from season 2 of 2012: He defated Puzzle, Ryung, Virus and Genius there and lost 1-3 to Mvp. So if those two get compared, both Boxer and Naniwa defeated 4 players and then lost to the eventual champion. The difference is, that Boxer defeated 3 players, who never made Code S and 1 Code S regular (which NaDa was at that time), while Naniwa defeated 2 Code S regulars (Genius was the runner up the season before, had one Code A before that and was always Code S before that, Puzzle had 2 consecutive ro8s before) and 2 players with mixed showings and also took a map of the player, that would go on to win that tournament. I'd argue, that Naniwas run was closer to the relative global peak than Boxers. In every GSL after that, foreigners (Jinro, later HuK) outperformed Boxer.

Boxer also had a good run at MLG Anaheim, but there are foreigner tournament shwoings, that were more impressive that (for example Naniwa at Providence, Huk at Orlando, Stephano at NASL3).

Now let's look at NaDa. I think I may have gotten blinded a bit by his loss to Inca before; when I look at the players he defeated now (Zenio, MKP, Genius, TOP), that is actually quite an impressive list, so you can make a point for that being greater than the peaks of foreigners, although I'm still not sure if I would do that against the mentioned Naniwa-run or some of the weekend-tournaments, Stephano won. I'd also say, that NaDa was defintly not better than every foreigner through the whole year 2011. It may have been true during May, but in his later GSL runs, he can't be judged superior to HuK: In July, both of them made ro16, in GSL August, HuK knocked out NaDa directly in GSL August. There are also his international shwoings: TSL 3 (2-1 TLO, 0-3 Kas) and NASL S1 (knocked out by Morrow) can be blamed on being online. MLG Raleigh does make a case for NaDa, but Assembly 2011 does make a counterpoint (NaDa lost to elfi there and had a pretty one-sided loss against MaNa).

TLDR: The case of being closer to the relative global peak can be made for NaDa, although it isn't entirely conclusive and there were points in 2011, where foreigners were better than him. For Boxer, the case of being closer to the relative global peak can't really be made. Both of them are still great players, but there are foreigners, who are greater (in SC2 ofc, not in RTS).

On January 10 2016 20:47 Poopi wrote:
Of course, most premier wins, most wins vs top kor offline, most innovations in match ups, best earnings, etc... While not being as tryhard as NaNiwa which is bonus points (prob indicative of more talent).

When did "tryhard" become a negative term on the internet? I think it is a bit weird, that we talk about passion all the time, but if someone has a lot of it, he is suddenly tryharding and that somehow is a bad thing.

Edit: Just rewatched the NaDa-MaNa series, it was actually closer, than I remembered.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
January 10 2016 15:07 GMT
#139
Stephano's first place is just an undoubtabe thing
that remind me of the good old days

Thx stuchiu
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3748 Posts
January 10 2016 19:47 GMT
#140
I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to compare eras. If someone was best foreigner early in WoL it should be as much of an accomplishment as it was 3 years later because otherwise you're dragged down by playing in the wrong moment of time. There's no harder or easier era of any game - you can only be compared to your contemporary peers.
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