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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On January 10 2016 02:40 Elentos wrote: Actually, that's true, Sniper was pretty sick for quite some time, even in team leagues. Him and IdrA are probably the only progamers to make another progamer cry after beating them | ||
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A3th3r
United States319 Posts
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On January 10 2016 02:50 Solar424 wrote: Him and IdrA are probably the only progamers to make another progamer cry after beating them Maru. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On January 10 2016 02:19 EatingBomber wrote: Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it. | ||
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On January 10 2016 05:03 FuzzyJAM wrote: Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it. I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro). | ||
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NiGoL
1868 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
Well, that's just a little detail coming from a fan boy  | ||
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showBanquo
Sweden182 Posts
A) Naniwa's gsl runs B) Stephano's lack thereof C) how that "weird small tournament-win" nani had he had to go through mvp in nestea close to their primes D) how many of Stephano's tourn wins was achieved by stomping foreigners (and a few b-level koreans sometimes) E) that the only time Nani and Stephano went head-to-head naniwa won edit: also naniwa beating innovation close to his prime, beating flash, getting to wcs 2014 decisively vs koreans. quoting their tries to "come back" would be a bit lame, neither has impressed, but at the very least we can agree that there is not truth to Stephano's "I don't practice" thing. then he would have no problem winning now... well today 2016 he sucks | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On January 10 2016 07:35 showBanquo wrote: A few things not mentioned in the article (about top 2) A) Naniwa's gsl runs B) Stephano's lack thereof C) how that "weird small tournament-win" nani had he had to go through mvp in nestea close to their primes D) how many of Stephano's tourn wins was achieved by stomping foreigners (and a few b-level koreans sometimes) E) that the only time Nani and Stephano went head-to-head naniwa won edit: also naniwa beating innovation close to his prime, beating flash, getting to wcs 2014 decisively vs koreans. quoting their tries to "come back" would be a bit lame, neither has impressed, but at the very least we can agree that there is not truth to Stephano's "I don't practice" thing. then he would have no problem winning now... well today 2016 he sucks Well, Stephano was obviously quite trolling with his statement but he was already really strong in may 2011 and at this time (basically, I am almost certain that this is at this moment he developed his skills in SC2), he was in school with a very skeptical family about esport so he could not play as much. Moreover, some casters (rotti or appolo I think) reported than he hadn't practiced since 4 or 5 days before NASL 3 i think and he was in bad conditions in the WCS EU. Anyway, here my response: A) Stephano's record in PL was good and the first GSL season is generally difficult for the foreigners (I don't remember very well but the first time Naniwa competes in GSL, he lost in the ro32 no?) C) That was "just" two bo3 to win, 4 players... This is still quite a thing and his run in the main tournament was pretty great but still, it is not a big tournament. D) I would say 2/4 (WCS eu, IPL 3, and in ESWC, he just has to play a bo3 against MKP) but overall, he competed with the vey best Koreans during his career, like naniwa but he has 4 premiers tournaments wins. E) In this DH winter (and I would say in all DH overall) stephano played terribly, it was his slump just after his recent victories. Moreover, I would say the impact in the meta has been considered by stuchiu and the perception of the Koreans: he is the only foreigner who has been this much praised by them and well, I honestly cannot say I am objective but at their peaks, I felt like Stephano reached a level that no other foreigner ever had, especially in zvp. To conclude, yeah, currently, he sucks and NW 3 broke my heart badly. :D | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On January 10 2016 06:34 Xoronius wrote: I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro). Yeah, I almost made a caveat on those two. But when Boxer made Ro4, TLO made Ro64 and no other foreigner did anything. You could argue it was too volatile then, but at the very least no foreigner could claim to be better than Boxer at the time. It also depends on how long a period you're judging by and so on, 'cause Jinro of course made the same run the next season. For Nada, he was mostly impressive all of 2011 - nothing to sneeze at, better than any foreigner. At the very least, people would still be going crazy about Boxer and Nada's performances if they were foreigners. It really was the peak of competition, and while you might argue x, y or z was the better player, the belittling of some is not fair. The reason Stephano (for me) is the best player is not because he peaked higher relative to worldwide competition (he didn't), but because he did well in a fairly developed scene and game. I loved the start of WoL, but you have to remember it for the somewhat broken game it was, and the competition level for the BitByBit moments it had. When a game really isn't figured out, achievements can't really go towards proclaiming the all time great. | ||
munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On January 10 2016 00:47 Laserist wrote: Disgusting Liquid bias. Definitely Snute < HuK all day every day. I know you guys like Snute but cmon?!? The irony of this statement is too much | ||
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AceOfCakez
United States72 Posts
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 10 2016 19:51 Advantageous wrote: Who voted on this list? Stephano #1? Snute is #1, and Naniwa #2 (only because of his attitude).., But Stephano? #1? Definitely no. It's solely stuchiu's opinion. But he at least explains the reasoning for his ranking. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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Poopi
France12792 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On January 10 2016 10:47 FuzzyJAM wrote: Yeah, I almost made a caveat on those two. But when Boxer made Ro4, TLO made Ro64 and no other foreigner did anything. You could argue it was too volatile then, but at the very least no foreigner could claim to be better than Boxer at the time. It also depends on how long a period you're judging by and so on, 'cause Jinro of course made the same run the next season. For Nada, he was mostly impressive all of 2011 - nothing to sneeze at, better than any foreigner. At the very least, people would still be going crazy about Boxer and Nada's performances if they were foreigners. It really was the peak of competition, and while you might argue x, y or z was the better player, the belittling of some is not fair. The reason Stephano (for me) is the best player is not because he peaked higher relative to worldwide competition (he didn't), but because he did well in a fairly developed scene and game. I loved the start of WoL, but you have to remember it for the somewhat broken game it was, and the competition level for the BitByBit moments it had. When a game really isn't figured out, achievements can't really go towards proclaiming the all time great. Idra and Loner both made the ro16, when Boxer made the ro4. I'm not trying to belittle Boxer or NaDa, but a comparism between an amout of players always leeds to "x>y". I'm arguing in favor of x here, not because I dislike y. Also, there is the fact, that both of them are much greater RTS-players than any foreigner, because of their bw-days anyway, so again, I don't try to belittle them, I just argue in favor of others. So let's analyze Boxer first: During his run, he defeated Hapiness, CoreJJang, Loner and NaDa. I think, you can see, that the bracket was quite in his favor here. NaDa (and to a lesser extend also Loner back then) were the only really dangerous players, he faced there. I think if one of the top foreigners in that time (Idra, Jinro, maybe DIMAGA, White-Ra, Morrow) would have gotten the same bracket, it would not be entirely unrealistic, that they could have made the same run. When Boxer faced Nestea in the semis, he lost 0-4. As a comparism lets take Naniwas run from season 2 of 2012: He defated Puzzle, Ryung, Virus and Genius there and lost 1-3 to Mvp. So if those two get compared, both Boxer and Naniwa defeated 4 players and then lost to the eventual champion. The difference is, that Boxer defeated 3 players, who never made Code S and 1 Code S regular (which NaDa was at that time), while Naniwa defeated 2 Code S regulars (Genius was the runner up the season before, had one Code A before that and was always Code S before that, Puzzle had 2 consecutive ro8s before) and 2 players with mixed showings and also took a map of the player, that would go on to win that tournament. I'd argue, that Naniwas run was closer to the relative global peak than Boxers. In every GSL after that, foreigners (Jinro, later HuK) outperformed Boxer. Boxer also had a good run at MLG Anaheim, but there are foreigner tournament shwoings, that were more impressive that (for example Naniwa at Providence, Huk at Orlando, Stephano at NASL3). Now let's look at NaDa. I think I may have gotten blinded a bit by his loss to Inca before; when I look at the players he defeated now (Zenio, MKP, Genius, TOP), that is actually quite an impressive list, so you can make a point for that being greater than the peaks of foreigners, although I'm still not sure if I would do that against the mentioned Naniwa-run or some of the weekend-tournaments, Stephano won. I'd also say, that NaDa was defintly not better than every foreigner through the whole year 2011. It may have been true during May, but in his later GSL runs, he can't be judged superior to HuK: In July, both of them made ro16, in GSL August, HuK knocked out NaDa directly in GSL August. There are also his international shwoings: TSL 3 (2-1 TLO, 0-3 Kas) and NASL S1 (knocked out by Morrow) can be blamed on being online. MLG Raleigh does make a case for NaDa, but Assembly 2011 does make a counterpoint (NaDa lost to elfi there and had a pretty one-sided loss against MaNa). TLDR: The case of being closer to the relative global peak can be made for NaDa, although it isn't entirely conclusive and there were points in 2011, where foreigners were better than him. For Boxer, the case of being closer to the relative global peak can't really be made. Both of them are still great players, but there are foreigners, who are greater (in SC2 ofc, not in RTS). On January 10 2016 20:47 Poopi wrote: Of course, most premier wins, most wins vs top kor offline, most innovations in match ups, best earnings, etc... While not being as tryhard as NaNiwa which is bonus points (prob indicative of more talent). When did "tryhard" become a negative term on the internet? I think it is a bit weird, that we talk about passion all the time, but if someone has a lot of it, he is suddenly tryharding and that somehow is a bad thing. Edit: Just rewatched the NaDa-MaNa series, it was actually closer, than I remembered. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
that remind me of the good old days Thx stuchiu | ||
nimdil
Poland3748 Posts
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