Making a list like this was always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is prestige of a tournament, measuring and making judgements on the GSL as compared to international LANS, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and ESF players. Consistency over a long period of time as compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but their effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments. Blizzcon is at the highest because after 2013 it became the end all for the year, increasing the amount of pressure to win it. GSL is next as it has had the best format since Jan 2011, has the most preparation per round and has the best competition. The format and amount of players is what puts it slightly above the other Korean LANs like OSL, SSL, KeSPA/Hot6ix Cup, WCS KR 2012 and WCG KR. International tournaments are roughly below them, though depending on the player pool it can go all the way up being very close to GSL levels of prestige if many top players attended the event.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greats as of this very moment.
“Really?” - DRG moments after Scarlett chose Protoss in G3 of their MLG series
Scarlett was NA’s last hope just like Luke was for Obi-Wan. The CA/American region had never had the depth of the EU scene and it wasn’t until Scarlett’s break out at IPL that NA had a new potential Championship class player to talk about. So eventually when Idra and HuK’s peaks started to fade away, Scarlett was destined to be the Heiress to NA.
Which made sense in a way. While she never fulfilled the same role that Idra did, in terms of gameplay Scarlett was in many ways a superior Idra. She had equal or stronger mechanics (relative to their time periods) that was specialized in ZvT, particularly Zerg vs Bio. But she also had the patience to play long drawn out BL/infestor games. On top of that her ZvP was much stronger. They both played very economical greedy openers in every matchup and they both had trouble with the super aggressive 2 base Protoss attack style players like Daisy or PartinG.
Both of them even had their best career games against Bomber. Idra’s was at MLG, Scarlett’s at Red Bull. That was where the similarities ended however. Scarlett didn’t have any ragequit issues. She was completely fine with talking about the “brokenness” of Protoss, but accepted it as a reality that was a part of the game. Beyond that she focused more on creep spread as she recognized the importance of map presence more than many foreigners who found it a taxing chore.
She also inherited the role of Canada’s greatest player from HuK, though their personalities couldn’t be any different. HuK was a show man. He was loud, rambunctious, well-spoken and mischievous. When Scarlett started, Hot_Bid had to spend hours trying to pry words out of her mouth through volumes of awkward silence. And while the years seemed to have made her more social, she is still on the quiet side on camera, though much more well spoken. As far as I could tell the only thing the two shared was that they both 7 gated a GSL Champion (Sniper and DRG respectively).
When she finally retired from a lack of interest in the game, the role of NA’s hopes would strangely fall on a boy named Hitman, but that’s another story.
Difference between Scarlett and Sen:
While Sen was active for longer, Scarlett’s peak consistency was stronger lasting for about 1.5 years (though she wasn’t the strongest of the foreigners, that probably went to NaNiwa and Snute in 2013/2014.) But she was still a championship level foreign player and her overall runs were stronger than Sen’s.
Two of the first statements that I ever heard HuK utter were, “I want to be the next Lim Yo-Hwan of SC2,” and “Top 3 Control.” Both were seen as controversial statements at the time, but for me they encapsulated a lot of what HuK was about when he first entered the SC2 scene in 2010. He had big ambitions and believed he had the skills to back them up. He didn’t want to just be big, he wanted to be the biggest. And not in the same way as the traditional pro.
After all, while Boxer was a legend, he was rarely first in line in discussions of the Greatest Player of All Time. Experts put names like Flash, NaDa, Jaedong and iloveoov before Boxer, yet the Emperor's influence could not be denied. That's because Boxer was the first to have such a large impact on the game and an impact on his entire scene and esports in Korea as a whole.
And while his first year of play wasn’t close to as dominant as what Boxer did in BW, it was incredibly impressive. Multiple championships and top placings in international tournaments, a Ro8 in GSL, consistently playing and defeating top foreign and Korean players, winning one of the big events of that year in MLG Orlando and a consensus belief that he was either Top 2 or 3 Protoss in the world along with MC and HerO. The results kept coming in until about mid 2012 where several things had happened. The onslaught of BL/infestor came into the meta, the game had become much more figured out and refined on all levels and HuK was burned out after having traveled to almost every single international event.
From that time period alone, HuK won his slot as one of the greatest foreigners to have ever played the game. But one of the most interesting things about HuK was that he never even thought of retiring. After a great player is finished with their run, the majority of them retire. In HuK’s case he kept sticking with it because he is in a sense All-in on SC2. Not just as a player, but also as a community member.
Among top pro players there are very few in both the foreign scene and the Korean scene that take their duty as a representative of the scene quite as seriously as HuK. The only other one I can think of is actually MC (which is incidentally why I think it’s both funny and fitting that they team together in archon mode).
Playstyle:
HuK does a lot of everything. But if I had to characterize it, it would be comfort in inefficiency. What I mean is HuK’s builds aren’t all particularly super refined down to the last mineral, second or placement. The thing is he can do refined builds, but for whatever reason he seems to play worse with them as compared to his less efficient builds. As far his early success, I think it came from a few factors. He had better control, he was more comfortable playing the game his own way than the majority of the opponents he played against were in playing against him. He was also aggressive, something which a lot of players had trouble dealing with in the first year of WoL.
Difference between HuK and Scarlett:
HuK just had too many results overall and bigger impact wins relative to his time. This outweighed the fact that Scarlett had played in a more difficult era with the equivalent time of peak consistency.
#3 | Snute, Breaking Glass Ceilings
Achievements:
Top 6 WCS NA S2 2013
Top 8 WCS EU S1 2014
Top 8 IEM Shenzhen 2014
Top 8 IEM Toronto
Top 8 WCS 2015
Top 8 DH Bucharest 2013
Top 8 HSC X
Top 8 IEM San Jose
Top 8 DH Winter 2012
1st HSC VI
2nd HSC VII
Top 8 RB Detroit
Top 8 IEM Shenzhen 2015
Top 8 DH Stockholm 2015
2nd WEC
Top 4 DH Moscow
Top 4 Gfinity Masters 1
2nd Kung Fu Cup #1 2015
Top 4 Gfinity G3
1st TakeTV Invitational
1st Seat Story Cup
2nd Millenium Show Cup
2nd Gigabyte 2013
1st ESET Masters 2013
2nd Campus Party Europe
“I've reached my limit. I can’t get any better.” - Snute in 2011 after beating Demuslim for the first time.
"I think it's highly likely possible to live off [progaming] in Norway, too, if you try hard enough. But the road is long and you'd have to be incredibly dedicated to StarCraft in order to get there. It's not for wussies." - Snute in 2011, when asked if it was possible to live off gaming.
Getting better at SC2 or any field of study/competition is a very complex and intangible thing. There are no milestones. Everyone understands that the more effort you put into practice, the more you should get out of it. The more you study the more you should learn. But in SC2 effort does not always pay off. Kas probably played the most ladder games of anyone but he only ever got a few results. Stephano was renowned for not practicing and he is widely regarded as one of the great champions of SC2 history. Fans tell foreigners all the time that all they need to do is to practice more. Yet many of them practice an equivalent or an even higher amount than the Koreans.
One of the BW coaches once said that what divided the good players and the greatest players in the end was talent as there was only so much pure effort you could put into the game. That is what makes Snute’s story all the more interesting.
Snute for my money wasn’t especially talented. I saw random bits and pieces of his games back in 2011. In fact one of the first SC2 articles I ever wrote was covering Snute in that ONOG Invitational where I saw him do a lot of aggressive baneling busts. If I had to describe Snute’s career, it was the everlasting grind. And each time he increased his skill in some tangible way, he’d hit a wall. He couldn't beat Demuslim or Kas or Beastyqt. But like Roland from the Dark Tower, he kept grinding away at the problem over and over and over. And each time he’d hit bigger and larger obstacle in his path. He wasn’t like a lot of others on the list because once they hit a certain point they’d shoot up straight to the top. In Snute’s case he had to fail. Because only in his failure did he learn how to succeed, to win.
Snute would keep practicing until he could win locals. Till he could get to GM. Till he could start qualifying for tournaments. The pivotal moment was when he reached WCG 2011. In a post tournament interview, Snute said
"I have thought several times in the past that I couldn't become better, but every time I proved myself wrong" and "when I was at WCG I promised a Korean friend of mine that I would beat MVP next year, so that's obviously goal number one. Goal number two is to become the best foreign Zerg, and the ultimate goal is to become the best player in the world. There is no other mindset.”
The Road Snute envisioned was probably even longer and harder to walk than he had expected. He won his first Premier event in 2012 at HSC VI, but in the coming year after going full-time he realized that there were even more obstacles to overcome. While Snute never did get the chance to beat Mvp, by 2014 he had become the best foreign Zerg. And in that year and the next he proved his skill by defeating both top foreigners and top Koreans. In some cases he’d beat the Koreans at the peak of their skills like at IEM Shenzhen 2015 after he beat both Rain and Classic in the group stages, both of whom had just recently won Starleague titles in Korea.
However for Snute, the path has been ever lasting. Of all the foreigners on this list, he is the only one I could say without any doubt could beat a GSL Champion days after the GSL Champ’s inauguration to the throne. The last hurdle Snute has to overcome is the hardest. The ability to close out series, to close out tournaments and to do so against the best competition in the world. Something no foreigner has ever done since Stephano. I’m not sure whether he will succeed or fail in the last leg of his journey, but either way I can say without a doubt that Snute is one of the Greatest foreigners to have ever played the game.
Playstyle:
Snute reminds me in many ways of a Zerg version of 2012 Rain. From 2012-2014 he had a very strong ideal late game he would always try to get to by playing safely, and despite any disadvantageous taken from the earlier parts of the game, he would play it out and try to win from there. This all crumbled however when swarmhosts were nerfed and Zerg no longer had a theoretically perfect late game, causing Snute to stumble until he found a unique solution that he unveiled in his matches against Rain and Classic at IEM Shenzhen 2015 where he was given the nickname, “The Onion Zerg.” If there is a fundamental flaw in Snute’s play, it is that he is never able to close out the latter stages of the biggest tournaments despite beating the heavy favorite to win in the earlier parts of the bracket.
Difference between Snute and HuK:
Snute has had a larger consistent peak with more results against more opponents over a longer period of time. Yes HuK had some big wins, but the breadth and depth of Snute’s career made too much of a difference, especially when you add in that he played in a harder era had his style broken down twice (at the end of WoL and the Swarmhost nerf) and was still able to keep at a level where he could (and did) upset GSL/SSL Champions.
#2 | Naniwa, Me Against the World
Achievements:
Top 4 Blizzcon 2011
2nd MLG Providence
Top 8 GSL S2 2012
Top 8 GSL S3 2012
6th WCS EU S2 2013
Top 8 WCS Season 2 Finals 2013
2nd TSL 3
Top 8 MLG Anaheim 2011
Top 8 MLG Winter Arena 2012
Top 8 MLG Winter 2012
2nd DH Stockholm 2013
Top 4 MLG Spring 2013
2nd IEM NY 2013
Top 6 MLG Columbus 2011
Top 8 DH Summer 2011
Top 8 DH Summer 2012
1st MLG Dallas
Top 8 IEM Kiev
2nd 2011 Battle.net Invitational
2nd HSC III
2nd Fragbite Masters 2013
1st MLG Global Invitational
“You can say anything you want about NaNiwa, but the guy has balls.” - Stephano about Naniwa at WCS 2015
In the foreign world, we care about the virtue of ambition above all else and the strength to carry that ambition to its fruition. It’s not surprising when you think about it. There are very few foreigners that can challenge the Korean players and even less who can win consistently enough to win titles against them. In that sense, NaNiwa is one of the most beloved foreigners. Here was a man who decided to bet his entire career on winning one MLG tournament (MLG Dallas) in 2011. He ended up winning that tournament and going full time into SC2.
Yet when it comes to looking at NaNiwa’s carer, a consistent pattern always shows up. NaNiwa, despite all of his skill and all of the incredible players he’s beaten, has not won a tournament since that MLG Dallas. Perhaps it is because NaNiwa cares too much. Like Snute, in NaNiwa’s mind the only true goal worth pursuing is to be the best in the world. Not to just be the best foreigner in the world, but to be the best, period.
So every time he gets to a finals, he starts losing focus, he starts losing control, and he loses the finals. One of the biggest tournaments of all time was MLG Providence. It was easily a GSL caliber event and NaNiwa had made it all the way to the finals only to lose by exactly 1 game. If he had won that 1 game, I’d argue that would have been the biggest win any foreigner had ever done in the entirety of SC2. Yet he was always just one step away and for someone who wanted to be the best more than anything, that was probably devastating.
Yet in NaNiwa’s pursuit of glory, pursuit of greatness he ignored everything else. He couldn’t control himself the way other players or large community casters could in public. He’d rage at anyone or anything at any given moment. If you asked him a question he’d tell you exactly what he thought about anything at that exact moment in the most blunt language possible. And sometimes he’d go out of his way to tell you.
So here we have a man whose very personality created a massive conflict among the foreign fans and community. They disliked his personality and his antics, but none of them could deny his passion or his work ethic. All of this came to a head multiple times throughout his career in Hot6ix Cup, his loss against Mvp in GSL, his rivalry against ThorZaIN, and eventually the IEM Katowice incident.
There will never be a figure quite as controversial as NaNiwa. A player that could inspire both admiration and disdain in equal amounts in his pursuit of everlasting greatness.
Playstyle:
NaNiwa has gone through multiple phases in his career wavering from a cheesy to an intense macro player back to a 2 base player to a kind of free form sOs-esque player. If I had to quantify his strengths, it would be his control, particularly his forcefields and a great sense of build orders and build order refinement. He also had a really great sense of when to attack. His fundamental flaw became PvP once the oracle was buffed in HotS. That was something NaNiwa never recovered from.
Difference between NaNiwa and Snute:
NaNiwa had a large body of work before Snute (2011-2012) and while Snute caught up in 2014-2015, there weren’t enough major runs to contend with NaNiwa’s place as second.
#1 | Stephano, Untouchable
Achievements:
1st WCS EU 2012
2nd WCS EU S1 2013
1st IPL 3
6th IPL 4
3rd RB Austin 2012
3rd MLG Spring Arena 2012
6th MLG Spring Championship 2012
6th MLG Summer Arena
Top 8 Iron Squid 2
2nd ASUS Winter 2012
1st NASL 3
Top 8 DH Valencia 2012
Top 4 HSC VI
Top 8 HSC VII
3rd ESWC 2012
1st ESWC 2011
Top 4 DH Summer Open 2012
3rd ASUS Rog Summer 2011
1st Lone Star Clash 1
1st Lone Star Clash 2
4 kill of Team Korea at IPL5
“I had a dream.” - Stephano on why he used roach/hydra to defeat Ganzi
JulyZerg once said that at the very height of competition in Brood War, mechanics no longer mattered. It was all pure psychological warfare and whoever cracked first was the one to lose. And while the game has changed, JulyZerg's maxim on the eve of his Golden Mouse victory remains true. Skills aren’t enough to take you to the top of this game and stay there. You need an incredibly strong mentality that can handle any amount of pressure.
For my money, Stephano was mentally the strongest foreigner there has ever been and top five strongest mental players that SC2 has seen (the others are Mvp, Life, Taeja and sOs). In an earlier article I wrote how Nerchio’s greatest strength was his consistency, his ability to always play the exact same way he did in practice as he did in real matches. Stephano was like that, except in Stephano’s case he sometimes played even better than he did practice (though according to all rumors, he didn’t practice a ton) and could pull inspiration out of nowhere at any time regardless of the conditions. He could have lost his keyboard, gotten drunk, had a terrible flight, just walked into the venue barefoot and he’d still give you at least a Top 8 run if not win the event.
Stephano was crowned the day he landed in Atlantic City and took his first trophy at IPL 3. Since then his results have been the best of any foreigner and he was legitimately Top 5 or Top 10 Zerg (depending on who you asked) for the entirety of 2012, in a year where Zerg was in abundance because of BL/infestor.
Stephano was such a loved figure that despite basically being the father of the build and the composition, he was one of the most lauded players in the world. When other people rode BL/infestor to victory, they were derided as patch zergs. When Stephano used BL/infestor,they talked about his victories with both respect and admiration.
It is hard to quantify exactly the kind of impact Stephano had on the scene both as a player and a figure. The truly strong foreigners are often talked about in Korea. Players like Jinro, Scarlett, Snute, NaNiwa, HuK and Idra all come to mind. But no other foreigner was talked about in awe and fear as Stephano, both in Korea and abroad at the height of his powers. No other foreigner had ever affected the meta as much (and subsequently got a race nerfed) as much as Stephano.
Beyond BL/infestor he was also responsible for 3 hatch ZvP play, the max roach builds, the roach/hydra vs Terran builds and he was one of the first players to use swarmhost in ZvP when HotS came out (though as far as I could tell it was a mutually created comp used by a lot of different Zergs at the same time period, so no one really gets credit for its creation). Along with his incredible tournaments runs, that created the greatest foreigner of all time, and he did it off the back of only 1.5 years of play. The greatest foreigner ever. Even now, when he says that it would take him just two weeks to get back to the top if he was serious, there is a small part of me that thinks he could do it.
Difference between Stephano and NaNiwa:
When we look at their peak periods of time, NaNiwa was a top foreigner from the second half of 2011 to the end of 2013. However his actual peak was from the second half of 2011 to the end of the first half of 2013. He then slumped for a year (still a top 5 foreigner, but no longer dominant) and then revived for the latter half of 2013. His total peak lasted about 1.5 years and he had another year as a top 5 foreigner. Compared to that, Stephano was the best foreigner for the last 3 months of 2011 to the end of the first 3 months of 2013, making that a total of 1.5 years.
In terms of longevity, NaNiwa won out, but in terms of the peak and consistent peak, Stephano was ahead of NaNiwa. More than that, Stephano played more Top 10 players than Naniwa over the course of their respective careers. Finally, he was a great innovator of the game, easily the most influential foreigner on the SC2 meta there has ever been. The only two knocks against Stephano's career is that the majority of his peak was during the BL/infestor era and his years of play didn't last as long as NaNiwa. But even with those things added on, Stephano was just above NaNiwa in every major criteria.
Here are a list of the players the notable players they beat on their runs:
NaNiwa
Top 4 Blizzcon 2011 - Sen, DIMAGA
1st MLG Dallas - No one noteworthy
2nd TSL 3 - Ret, Hasuobs
Top 6 MLG Columbus - Moon
Top 8 DH Summer 2011 - Ret
Top 8 MLG Anaheim - Sheth, Idra
1st MLG Global - Mvp, Nestea
2nd MLG Providence - Nestea, HuK, DRG
Top 8 IEM Kiev 2012 - No one noteworthy
Top 8 MLG Winter Arena - Grubby, Sheth, Nestea, Leenock
Top 8 MLG Winter Championship - JYP, MC
Top 8 GSL S2 2012 - Puzzle, Ryung, Genius, Virus
Top 8 GSL S3 2012 - TheSTC, Creator, Keen, Genius
Top 8 DH Summer 2012 - Slivko
Top 8 DH Winter 2012 - ForGG, Feast
2nd DH Stockholm 2013 - TLO, SortOf, Jaedong
Top 4 MLG Spring 2013 - TheSTC, Jaedong, Dear
Top 6 WCS EU S2 2013 - Lucifron, MMA, Vortix
Top 8 WCS Season 2 finals 2013 - INnoVtion, Duckdeok
2nd IEM NY 2013 - Hack, Hack, San, HyuN
DH Winter 2013 - HyuN, Leenock
Stephano
3rd ASUS Rog 2011 - Sen
1st IPL 3 - vioLet, Inori, TheSTC, Lucky
1st ESWC 2011 - Marineking, MaNa
2nd ASUS Rog Winter 2012 - MaNa, elfi, Puma
1st NASL 3 - HerO, MC, Alicia
3rd MLG Spring Arena 2 2012 - Ganzi,Ryung, MC, Heart
3rd RB Austin - vioLet, Parting, Squirtle
Top 4 DH Summer 2012 - Keen, Nerchio
Top 6 MLG Spring Championship 2012 - Polt, Alicia, JYP, Ganzi
Top 6 MLG Summer Arena 2012 - Revival, Ryung, HerO
1st WCS EU 2012 - Lowely, Lucifron, Vortix, Vortix
Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 - no one noteworthy
3rd ESWC 2012 - SortOf
Top 4 HSC VI - MMA, Marineking
Top 8 Iron Squid II - MaNa, Mvp, MMA
2nd WCS EU S1 2013 - DIMAGA, Thorzain, Babyknight, ForGG
Top 8 HSC VII - MaNa
1st LSC 1 - Grubby, Polt
1st LSC 2 - Ganzi, Crank, Bomber
Team World vs Team Korea 4 Kill - Life, MC, DRG, Seed
In pure players beaten, Stephano has just faced more Top 10 level players over the course of his career, despite his career lasting a shorter time than NaNiwa's. Even though Stephano lost out on longevity a bit, he had a higher peak, higher consistent peak, innovated his race and won international LANs. That was most notable when you realize that NaNiwa only ever won 2 international LANs: one a weak MLG Dallas, the other a weird one segregated into a 4 man live tournament at MLG Global Invitational. On the other hand we have a player who won IPL 3, ESWC 2011, NASL 3, WCS EU 2012, LSC 1 and LSC 2. The two edges that NaNiwa had were that Protoss was weaker than Zerg in 2012 and his career lasted longer than Stephano's by about 9 months (After Stephano's retirement in 2013 to the end of 2013), however that wasn't nearly enough to make up for Stephano's peak, his consistent peak, his innovation and the players Stephano has beaten.
On January 09 2016 02:01 lichter wrote: liquid bias obvs
I still remember those marvelous months watching GSL and rooting for Huk, so it's probably my personal bias. Having said that, liquid bias could also be the answer...
On January 09 2016 02:15 Heyoka wrote: Great memories
Really great... Many thanks to all the players in the list, and also to those that didn't make it in. To all that are still active, keep giving us such great games; to all retired... please come back !!
On January 09 2016 02:18 Ej_ wrote: Blew such a great opportunity to put MLord at #1
You cannot put a new young musician who just had his first number 1 hit on greatest list where people like Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Nina Simone and The Beatles are.
it is too early for MarineLord. Maybe next year when he has good results
Great list, thanks so much for this. Cannot disagree on anyone on the list.
I don't think we will ever see another foreigner like Stephano, in both personality and overall skill. Incredibly laid back, yet insanely refined in his play and instinctual about his tactics. He is a great person to have as a part of this scene, and there is no surprise that events still have him come by, because he is such a legend and he is such a great face for this game.
I'm still not sure how I feel about a player with only 1 premier tournament finals, zero wins, and consistency issues can be top 5 all time. Obviously Scarlett has mad skill and her peak was great but the results just aren't there to justify being top 5 imo. Just saying that she was a better Idra isn't enough, especially when I felt Idra was also too highly ranked
no mention about nani's (and Stephano's lack of) GSL runs . Except for the loss vs Mvp. And about who they went through beofre winning/not quite winning some tourns. And that "weird little win" naniwa had was vs mvp and nestea.
Oh well stephano #1 was expected. I'd prefer a better comparison/analysis, but at least you didn't put naniwa further down
Lol Snute doesn't need a second place in a final to be places above Nani. Snute had to beat better player just to be qualified for IEM Shenzen. Snute beat top kespa koreans in their prime over and over again while top kespa koreans like Life trolled Nani in the finals.
2nd WCS EU 2012 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2013 Top 8 WCS EU S3 2013 Top 4 WCS EU S1 2014 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2014 Top 4 IEM Cologne 2012 Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 Top 4 IEM Singapore 2012 Top 8 ASUS Northcon 2013 Top 8 DH Valencia 2014 2nd Fragbite Masters Spring 1st Vasacast Invitational
Top 4 WCS NA S2 2013 Top 8 WCS NA S3 2013 Top 8 Iron Squid 2 Top 4 HSC IX 4th MLG Anaheim 2014 6th Red Bull Washington 3rd Red Bull NY Top 8 IEM Singapore 2013 2nd ASUS Northcon 1st RB BG NA
be #5, when they're so comparable and a argument can definitely be made that the results of Vortix were overall better. More WCS results (in the harder region) with fairly similar premier and major results. Maybe you can say some of Vortix's results were during BL/Infestor but that's all I can think of.
“I had a dream.” - Stephano on why he used roach/hydra to defeat Polt
It was against GanZi at Lone Star Clash 2, where Stephano and Polt didn't face each other (unfortunately I must say, I still remember the fantastic preview written by Fionn about their rivalry).
By the way, the top 15 foreigners won a grand total of zero EPS Championship, that's a disgrace.
No but seriously, everyone can argue about the places, etc but all of that was very well written, thanks again stuchiu. And of course seeing Stephano #1 pleases me, it's pretty hard to remember now because a lot of time passed and his last performances were pretty awful but he was completely insane in the first half of 2012. He started the year destroying Europe (SHOUTcraft, SCAN Invitational) and then consistently placed well in NA tournaments when there were a lot of them and when they were stacked (IPL, MLG) and ended with Alicia's slaughter at NASL 3. This exact period was for me Stephano's highest peak.
2nd WCS EU 2012 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2013 Top 8 WCS EU S3 2013 Top 4 WCS EU S1 2014 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2014 Top 4 IEM Cologne 2012 Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 Top 4 IEM Singapore 2012 Top 8 ASUS Northcon 2013 Top 8 DH Valencia 2014 2nd Fragbite Masters Spring 1st Vasacast Invitational
Top 4 WCS NA S2 2013 Top 8 WCS NA S3 2013 Top 8 Iron Squid 2 Top 4 HSC IX 4th MLG Anaheim 2014 6th Red Bull Washington 3rd Red Bull NY Top 8 IEM Singapore 2013 2nd ASUS Northcon 1st RB BG NA
be #5, when they're so comparable and a argument can definitely be made that the results of Vortix were overall better. More WCS results (in the harder region) with fairly similar premier and major results. Maybe you can say some of Vortix's results were during BL/Infestor but that's all I can think of.
I can totally respect putting Snute at top 3, over Huk.
But....
Justifying putting Scarlett above Sen by saying she's a championsship level player is just a fat lie. Ohyea she won that one NA only tournament... meanwhile Sen has actually always been able to contest Korean players, played in the GSL, had a bunch of top 3's, top 4's of the actual hardest tournaments at the time. That's what makes him championsship level, he can actually play a series. Scarlett is just a ladder hero that did well with massing Mutalisks...
So I wouldn't call this list liquid bias at all, rather NA bias with Idra and Scarlett way too high.. saying that well they were the best of NA and then discarding the same arguments when it comes to Chinese and Taiwanese players just doesn't do it for me. And instead of feeling like a professional analysis of the situation, it instead feels like a public voting..
On January 09 2016 03:45 ejozl wrote: I can totally respect putting Snute at top 3, over Huk.
But....
Justifying putting Scarlett above Sen by saying she's a championsship level player is just a fat lie. Ohyea she won that one NA only tournament... meanwhile Sen has actually always been able to contest Korean players, played in the GSL, had a bunch of top 3's, top 4's of the actual hardest tournaments at the time. That's what makes him championsship level, he can actually play a series. Scarlett is just a ladder hero that did well with massing Mutalisks...
So I wouldn't call this list liquid bias at all, rather NA bias with Idra and Scarlett way too high.. saying that well they were the best of NA and then discarding the same arguments when it comes to Chinese and Taiwanese players just doesn't do it for me. And instead of feeling like a professional analysis of the situation, it instead feels like a public voting..
Okay, I understand thinking Sen > Scarlett, but saying it's because Sen could compete vs Koreans is the worst justification for it. Scarlett was/is kind of known for playing better vs Koreans than she usually did against foreigners. That's one thing you CANT use against Scarlett.
1. Snute > HuK? 2. Snute's 2011 quote: LOL 3. sOs being top mental players. What is especially amazing is that he wasn't always this way (see WCS S1 Finals KR 2013 Finals v Innovation)
On January 09 2016 03:45 ejozl wrote: I can totally respect putting Snute at top 3, over Huk.
But....
Justifying putting Scarlett above Sen by saying she's a championsship level player is just a fat lie. Ohyea she won that one NA only tournament... meanwhile Sen has actually always been able to contest Korean players, played in the GSL, had a bunch of top 3's, top 4's of the actual hardest tournaments at the time. That's what makes him championsship level, he can actually play a series. Scarlett is just a ladder hero that did well with massing Mutalisks...
So I wouldn't call this list liquid bias at all, rather NA bias with Idra and Scarlett way too high.. saying that well they were the best of NA and then discarding the same arguments when it comes to Chinese and Taiwanese players just doesn't do it for me. And instead of feeling like a professional analysis of the situation, it instead feels like a public voting..
Okay, I understand thinking Sen > Scarlett, but saying it's because Sen could compete vs Koreans is the worst justification for it. Scarlett was/is kind of known for playing better vs Koreans than she usually did against foreigners. That's one thing you CANT use against Scarlett.
I'm probably not very clear, but what I meant was that Sen has always been this way, for way longer and his massive experience allows him to play the mind games as well. He can play preparation style and the long lans. His high tournament finishes were bigger stake tournaments.
2nd WCS EU 2012 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2013 Top 8 WCS EU S3 2013 Top 4 WCS EU S1 2014 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2014 Top 4 IEM Cologne 2012 Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 Top 4 IEM Singapore 2012 Top 8 ASUS Northcon 2013 Top 8 DH Valencia 2014 2nd Fragbite Masters Spring 1st Vasacast Invitational
Alot of them are during the Broodlord/Infestor area.
On January 09 2016 04:15 Girondelle wrote: Sen saved the foreign honour more than once when the stakes were high, he should have placed higher. Good read nonetheless.
2nd WCS EU 2012 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2013 Top 8 WCS EU S3 2013 Top 4 WCS EU S1 2014 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2014 Top 4 IEM Cologne 2012 Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 Top 4 IEM Singapore 2012 Top 8 ASUS Northcon 2013 Top 8 DH Valencia 2014 2nd Fragbite Masters Spring 1st Vasacast Invitational
Top 4 WCS NA S2 2013 Top 8 WCS NA S3 2013 Top 8 Iron Squid 2 Top 4 HSC IX 4th MLG Anaheim 2014 6th Red Bull Washington 3rd Red Bull NY Top 8 IEM Singapore 2013 2nd ASUS Northcon 1st RB BG NA
be #5, when they're so comparable and a argument can definitely be made that the results of Vortix were overall better. More WCS results (in the harder region) with fairly similar premier and major results. Maybe you can say some of Vortix's results were during BL/Infestor but that's all I can think of.
I don't think its fair to call EU the stronger region to be honest. Lets look at both of their best WCS runs.
Scarlett beat:HerO,ViBe,Macsed,Sage,Alive
Vortix beat:Showtime,Noname,MC, and Stardust
Her MLG Anaheim run was also pretty insane. Voritx was more consistent and had more results but I think Scarlett was better at killing S Class players.
Thank you from all of my heart Stuchiu for the great work you are doing. It is more work than some might think and I am sure you spent a lot of hours on this ranking and text to write.
If I were half the man you are then world would be a better place
Great write-ups, thanks for all the hard work! Snute and HuK are both looking pretty good right now too; hopefully if this list is compiled again in the future they can find themselves climbing even higher. It'll be really tough to dethrone NaNiwa or Stephano though.
On January 09 2016 04:42 A_needle_jog wrote: One thing to add.
Thank you from all of my heart Stuchiu for the great work you are doing. It is more work than some might think and I am sure you spent a lot of hours on this ranking and text to write.
If I were half the man you are then world would be a better place
Thank you.
This is absolutely true. Stuchiu might have different opinions than other people on certain rankings, but we should definitely note and applaud the effort he put into this. (Also he is quite a good writer, so that helps as well). So thanks again for the work stuchiu!
Discussing the actual positions, I think this is pretty much, what er expected after part 2, just with the knowledge of 3/4, so no new rants here. As I stated in the previous part, I would have probably placed some players differently (mainly putting Nerchio in the top 5 and probably ThorZaIN a bit higher as well) because of differences in the metrics I'd use, but overall this was an enjoyable ranking.
Also I'd like to add GoOdy to list list of people, who got robbed: The guy had won more tournaments than Stephano and Naniwa combined, he should be an obvious pick for number 1.
And another off topic thing: Happy birthyday A_needle_jog.
Nice read (not finished with it, but nice already )
As I said before, I think Scarlett and Snute shouldn't be in the top 5 and Nerchio and MaNa should be there instead simple due to their championships and final appearances, something that both Scarlett and Snute just lack in comparison.
On January 09 2016 02:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm still not sure how I feel about a player with only 1 premier tournament finals, zero wins, and consistency issues can be top 5 all time. Obviously Scarlett has mad skill and her peak was great but the results just aren't there to justify being top 5 imo. Just saying that she was a better Idra isn't enough, especially when I felt Idra was also too highly ranked
Scarlett was one of the scariest zergs ever in TvZ, even when counting koreans. She was favored and even though zerg was in a really good spot since a long time her mechanics were crazy. It's true that result wise she didn't win much, but we are talking about greatness and she has peaked far higher than most other foreigners of that list.
Otherwise why not count earnings as well?
Still didn't read but minus IdrA too high, VortiX and Nerchio too low, the list was kinda perfect (from my pov obviously haha) except that MaNa gained point for playing protoss instead of zerg but foreign terrans didn't gain points for playing the statistically (and probably objectively as well) hardest race for foreigners :/.
So yeah very nice article overall, with right the good amount of delay between parts in order to build some hype up.
Too bad most of the greats are retired or barely active.
2nd WCS EU 2012 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2013 Top 8 WCS EU S3 2013 Top 4 WCS EU S1 2014 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2014 Top 4 IEM Cologne 2012 Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 Top 4 IEM Singapore 2012 Top 8 ASUS Northcon 2013 Top 8 DH Valencia 2014 2nd Fragbite Masters Spring 1st Vasacast Invitational
Alot of them are during the Broodlord/Infestor area.
Alot? max 4 of 11 listed tournaments. When did BL/Inf era stop in your memory? I can't remember it was a thing in HotS (released at 13.03.2013).
On January 09 2016 05:34 Poopi wrote: Scarlett was one of the scariest zergs ever in TvZ, even when counting koreans.
I think this is going a bit to far. There was an era, where Scarlett was extremely strong in ZvT, but if you compare the scariness of her ZvT with for example DRG, who was considered to be unbeatable against terran (except for MMA, who was a TvZ-god as well back then), there is a gigantic difference. IIRC, koreans were very impressed by her during her prime, but I have never heard, that a top korean was really scared of her in the way, they acknowledged fear of other koreans/stephano.
Thanks a lot stuchiu It was a good read, and well written/explained your thought process every time. Especially with the dilemnas you had.µ to deal with.
and of course: Idra/Scarlett way too high, (Vortix)/Nerchio too low.
Maybe not Vortix cause everyone knew he was freaking good, but never proved his true potential. To be the greatest you need to be accomplished and have kind of an aura surrounding you. But it's ok cause he is coming back to prove us wrong hehehe
I am a huge believer in Snute, and I have been since 2014. But greatness requires an ability to deliver under pressure, and Snute has never won a major LAN outside of the least-pressured environment in esports, Krefeld. Huk won in Krefeld, but he also won at MLG and Dreamhack. The difference is significant in my eyes.
2nd WCS EU 2012 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2013 Top 8 WCS EU S3 2013 Top 4 WCS EU S1 2014 Top 8 WCS EU S2 2014 Top 4 IEM Cologne 2012 Top 8 DH Valencia 2012 Top 4 IEM Singapore 2012 Top 8 ASUS Northcon 2013 Top 8 DH Valencia 2014 2nd Fragbite Masters Spring 1st Vasacast Invitational
Top 4 WCS NA S2 2013 Top 8 WCS NA S3 2013 Top 8 Iron Squid 2 Top 4 HSC IX 4th MLG Anaheim 2014 6th Red Bull Washington 3rd Red Bull NY Top 8 IEM Singapore 2013 2nd ASUS Northcon 1st RB BG NA
be #5, when they're so comparable and a argument can definitely be made that the results of Vortix were overall better. More WCS results (in the harder region) with fairly similar premier and major results. Maybe you can say some of Vortix's results were during BL/Infestor but that's all I can think of.
" Even now, when he says that it would take him just two weeks to get back to the top if he was serious, there is a small part of me that thinks he could do it." Wasnt it naniwa's words ? It's under the stephano paragraph Anyway thanks that was a good read. I remember when stephano lost to Titan in an online cup, it was his first loss against protoss in like 30 games, that was the peak period of stephano i think
For my money, Stephano was mentally the strongest foreigner there has ever been and top five strongest mental players that SC2 has seen (the others are Mvp, Life, Taeja and sOs).
?????????
this guy was saying he is going to retire like every two weeks.
Just curious I don't disagree with the rankings or anything, but under the comparison between Naniwa and Stephano you put no one notable for Naniwa's MLG Dallas victory. But right undernearth it for 2 other 2011 tournaments you listed Ret as someone notable that Naniwa beat. I can't honestly think of anyone other than crazy Ret fans who could possibly consider 2011 Ret as a stronger player compared to Kiwikaki during that time period 2010-2011.
For my money, Stephano was mentally the strongest foreigner there has ever been and top five strongest mental players that SC2 has seen (the others are Mvp, Life, Taeja and sOs).
?????????
this guy was saying he is going to retire like every two weeks.
well anyway great write-up was fun reading
Liquid bias ;p. Although wanting to play late game TvP back then and being successful at it requires some mad mental skills I can tell you.
I'm just gonna vouch for Scarlett's Top 5 spot as a Scarlett fan boy
2012 WCS: wins WCS Canada, then WCS NA out of nowhere; makes to round of 16 only to lose to eventual winner PartinG 2012 RSL 2 2nd: beats HerO, slivko, feast, nerchio, vortix
Now look at the Koreans she beat: Iron Squid 2 Top 8: beats Marineking, Brown, Symbol 2013 RSL 5 3rd: beats Polt, Symbol, close loss to Life 2-3! 2013 WCS NA S2 Top 4: beats HerO, Revival, aLive, and barely lost to Jaedong 2-3 to a 6 POOL! 2013 WCS S2 Final Top 8: beats MMA and Maru who just won the OSL and again barely lost to Bomber 2-3 in an EPIC 5 GAMES OF ZVT! 2013 WCS NA S2 9-12th: beats Crank, Nestea
2013 Red Bull NYC 3rd: beats Golden and BOMBER IN THE MOST EPIC ZVT in group stage, then 2 clever cheese victory against sOs but lost next the 3 in standard games but still beat MC 2-0 in the 3rd place match. 2013 IEM Singapore Top 8: beats Dream AGAIN IN THE MOST EPIC ZVT BO3 and beats Bomber again! 2013 ASUS Northcon 2nd: beats jjakji, Stardust, and 3-0s Life! Red Bull, IEM, and Northcon all happend in a span of two weeks!
2014 HSC IX Top 4: beats Taeja, Patience, Stork, MMA 2014 Red Bull NA 1st: beats Violet, AND POLT IN 3 CONSECUTIVE BO3 WINNING 6-1! 2014 MLG Anaheim 4th: BEST ZVZ PLAYER beats Ragnarok and HyuN in group stage, losers bracket beats Life! BEAT DRG WITH AN INSANE RACE SWITCH AND HITMAN 7 GATE in game 2 and then winning game 3! Beats ragnarok again and close loss to Trap 1-2! Again HSC, Red Bull, MLG happened in a span of two weeks!
2014 WCS NA S3 Top 8: beats Seed and violet 2014 Red Bull DC 5-6th: beats PartinG 2-0 with A CRAZY PROXY HATCH AND NYDUS SWARMHOST! Very close loss to Cure and Polt both 1-2.
This is not to mention her team league victories in IPL, GSTL, and ATC!
On January 09 2016 09:41 argonautdice wrote: I'm just gonna vouch for Scarlett's Top 5 spot as a Scarlett fan boy
2012 WCS: wins WCS Canada, then WCS NA out of nowhere; makes to round of 16 only to lose to eventual winner PartinG 2012 RSL 2 2nd: beats HerO, slivko, feast, nerchio, vortix
Now look at the Koreans she beat: Iron Squid 2 Top 8: beats Marineking, Brown, Symbol 2013 RSL 5 3rd: beats Polt, Symbol, close loss to Life 2-3! 2013 WCS NA S2 Top 4: beats HerO, Revival, aLive, and barely lost to Jaedong 2-3 to a 6 POOL! 2013 WCS S2 Final Top 8: beats MMA and Maru who just won the OSL and again barely lost to Bomber 2-3 in an EPIC 5 GAMES OF ZVT! 2013 WCS NA S2 9-12th: beats Crank, Nestea
2013 Red Bull NYC 3rd: beats Golden and BOMBER IN THE MOST EPIC ZVT in group stage, then 2 clever cheese victory against sOs but lost next the 3 in standard games but still beat MC 2-0 in the 3rd place match. 2013 IEM Singapore Top 8: beats Dream AGAIN IN THE MOST EPIC ZVT BO3 and beats Bomber again! 2013 ASUS Northcon 2nd: beats jjakji, Stardust, and 3-0s Life! Red Bull, IEM, and Northcon all happend in a span of two weeks!
2014 HSC IX Top 4: beats Taeja, Patience, Stork, MMA 2014 Red Bull NA 1st: beats Violet, AND POLT IN 3 CONSECUTIVE BO3 WINNING 6-1! 2014 MLG Anaheim: BEST ZVZ PLAYER beats Ragnarok and HyuN in group stage, losers bracket beats Life! BEAT DRG WITH AN INSANE RACE SWITCH AND HITMAN 7 GATE in game 2 and then winning game 3! Beats ragnarok again and close loss to Trap 1-2! Again HSC, Red Bull, MLG happened in a span of two weeks!
2014 WCS NA S3: beats Seed and violet 2014 Red Bull DC 5-6th: beats PartinG 2-0 with A CRAZY PROXY HATCH AND NYDUS SWARMHOST! Very close loss to Cure and Polt both 1-2.
This is not to mention her team league victories in IPL, GSTL, and ATC!
If you haven't seen the games I capitalized GO SEE THEM!
So it's just not about the title finishes, it's about the games and the competition!
Also I'd like to make a counterpoint about Scarlett's relative shyness compared to HuK, which may be the case in real life, but she has just as much if not more bravado and showmanship in game!
Oops meant to press edit instead of quote sorry got too excited
On January 09 2016 03:02 OtherWorld wrote: Snute < NaNiwa? Please
That's just saltyness or troll, can't believe you if you're serious. Would be a discredit for you to downgrade Naniwa because you dislike him personally
Cool article, I agree Huk should be top 3 and top 3 control too, of course one of my favourite players in SC2! Maybe Snute was more consistent, while Huk had better results in korean scene, so it's pretty even, but who cares, it's just an article!
Stephano deserves the 1st, Naniwa the 2nd, they are the biggest. Also I would like to see Jinro a little bit more ranked, at his time he was almost unstoppable, and Idra of course, for his awesome game mechanics, he had a great time, but Huk owned him.
On January 09 2016 03:02 OtherWorld wrote: Snute < NaNiwa? Please
That's just saltyness or troll, can't believe you if you're serious. Would be a discredit for you to downgrade Naniwa because you dislike him personally
Looks like I was right about Stephano tho :o.
Also reading your post about Scarlett makes me very sad for terrans argonautdice :/.
On January 09 2016 03:02 OtherWorld wrote: Snute < NaNiwa? Please
That's just saltyness or troll, can't believe you if you're serious. Would be a discredit for you to downgrade Naniwa because you dislike him personally
Looks like I was right about Stephano tho :o.
Also reading your post about Scarlett makes me very sad for terrans argonautdice :/.
Oh she has her fair share of losses against korean terrans, but her ZvT makes some of the best games!
On January 09 2016 07:00 Faefae wrote: " Even now, when he says that it would take him just two weeks to get back to the top if he was serious, there is a small part of me that thinks he could do it." Wasnt it naniwa's words ? It's under the stephano paragraph Anyway thanks that was a good read. I remember when stephano lost to Titan in an online cup, it was his first loss against protoss in like 30 games, that was the peak period of stephano i think
Naniwa said it first, but failed. Stephano on the cast said he could actually do it, unlike Naniwa.
Snute has had a larger consistent peak with more results against more opponents over a longer period of time. Yes HuK had some big wins, but the breadth and depth of Snute’s career made too much of a difference, especially when you add in that he played in a harder era had his style broken down twice (at the end of WoL and the Swarmhost nerf) and was still able to keep at a level where he could (and did) upset GSL/SSL Champions.
I'd say having to beat MarineKing's 1/1/1 was as difficult at the time as having to beat herO's blink builds. That combined with more results is enough for me to have HuK as my #3.
On January 09 2016 03:02 OtherWorld wrote: Snute < NaNiwa? Please
That's just saltyness or troll, can't believe you if you're serious. Would be a discredit for you to downgrade Naniwa because you dislike him personally
Looks like I was right about Stephano tho :o.
Also reading your post about Scarlett makes me very sad for terrans argonautdice :/.
I'll give you that, but "just above Naniwa" doesn't sound like a different tier to me, so get rekt m8 Needless to say I ofc disagree with the placement, but can see the arguement for Stephano
Great article, really enjoyed reading it For me personally, I rate Huk>Snute and Naniwa>Stephano, but that's probably just bias because i like both of them really much.
lmao they're not remotely comparable in that fashion, why do people still spread this "the game was easier back then" garbage? HuK should be ahead of Snute because that MLG win + his GSL results go ahead of anything Snute did IMO.
First time I've disagreed enough to comment on one of these. Huk should definitely be at least third. On a list of the "Greatest" foreigners, winning big lans and competing well in GSL should easily count far more than Snute consistently doing pretty well.
Really enjoyed these articles, and can't complain much about the rankings either. Except that I find it a little odd with Snute so far up there. IMO in terms of skill, Scarlett is/was a head above him.
And thank god Stephano is #1, what a hell-hole this thread would be if not, lol.
I think Huk is maybe above Snute, but it's tough, since when you think about it. His triple win is a lot about coming from Korea with more efficient builds vs foreigners with less efficient builds and beating some Koreans in the end.
I would put Scarlett 3rd actually. I'm not even her biggest fan, but with stephano and naniwa she's the only one who I saw facing koreans on equal terms.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
But there's also context to any players performance. Like Jinro's ro4s were ended by MC and MKP. One of Naniwa's ro8s was ended by fucking Mvp. You couldn't get better players than those three at the time, or at least you'd struggle to.
Also there is no shame in being worse than any GSL champ/finalist
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
Wow, didn't know that. aLive must be a God then, right up there with the likes of Sniper and Has.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
But there's also context to any players performance. Like Jinro's ro4s were ended by MC and MKP. One of Naniwa's ro8s was ended by fucking Mvp. You couldn't get better players than those three at the time, or at least you'd struggle to.
Also there is no shame in being worse than any GSL champ/finalist
Nearly everyone predicted NaNiwa to win, due to Mvp's severely weakened mechanics, which was caused by his physical injuries
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
Wow, didn't know that. aLive must be a God then, right up there with the likes of Sniper and Has.
Yeah, the way he handled IdrA's sixpolls was quite godly. Seriously, you should look that up, it's not a long series but it was entertaining.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
nor does Sniper
Actually, that's true, Sniper was pretty sick for quite some time, even in team leagues.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
Wow, didn't know that. aLive must be a God then, right up there with the likes of Sniper and Has.
Yeah, the way he handled IdrA's sixpolls was quite godly. Seriously, you should look that up, it's not a long series but it was entertaining.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
nor does Sniper
Actually, that's true, Sniper was pretty sick for quite some time, even in team leagues.
Him and IdrA are probably the only progamers to make another progamer cry after beating them
My top-five greatest-of-all-time (GOAT) SC2 players list would be NesTea, BoXer, Jaedong, Day9, & Scarlett. Played a tournament where we had an old bucks vs. young guns format & I was crowned king of the KSL! That would be the Kariniemi Star League for those who are uninformed.
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
aLive beat IdrA in a BO7 in 30 minutes, how dare you question his qualifications? And seriously, RorO was legit, he really doesn't belong in a list like that. jjakji too.
nor does Sniper
Actually, that's true, Sniper was pretty sick for quite some time, even in team leagues.
Him and IdrA are probably the only progamers to make another progamer cry after beating them
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.
I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro).
An other characteristic of Stephano was his flanks, there were very good and allowed him to play ultras when most of pro gamers (and even koreans) thought that the unit was pretty bad... I remember when he was laddering in the korean server, he played Bomber quite a few time and he said that he was basically the only guy who firstly reaches this level of play with them. Well, that's just a little detail coming from a fan boy
A few things not mentioned in the article (about top 2)
A) Naniwa's gsl runs B) Stephano's lack thereof C) how that "weird small tournament-win" nani had he had to go through mvp in nestea close to their primes D) how many of Stephano's tourn wins was achieved by stomping foreigners (and a few b-level koreans sometimes) E) that the only time Nani and Stephano went head-to-head naniwa won
edit:
also naniwa beating innovation close to his prime, beating flash, getting to wcs 2014 decisively vs koreans. quoting their tries to "come back" would be a bit lame, neither has impressed, but at the very least we can agree that there is not truth to Stephano's "I don't practice" thing. then he would have no problem winning now... well today 2016 he sucks
On January 10 2016 07:35 showBanquo wrote: A few things not mentioned in the article (about top 2)
A) Naniwa's gsl runs B) Stephano's lack thereof C) how that "weird small tournament-win" nani had he had to go through mvp in nestea close to their primes D) how many of Stephano's tourn wins was achieved by stomping foreigners (and a few b-level koreans sometimes) E) that the only time Nani and Stephano went head-to-head naniwa won
edit:
also naniwa beating innovation close to his prime, beating flash, getting to wcs 2014 decisively vs koreans. quoting their tries to "come back" would be a bit lame, neither has impressed, but at the very least we can agree that there is not truth to Stephano's "I don't practice" thing. then he would have no problem winning now... well today 2016 he sucks
Well, Stephano was obviously quite trolling with his statement but he was already really strong in may 2011 and at this time (basically, I am almost certain that this is at this moment he developed his skills in SC2), he was in school with a very skeptical family about esport so he could not play as much. Moreover, some casters (rotti or appolo I think) reported than he hadn't practiced since 4 or 5 days before NASL 3 i think and he was in bad conditions in the WCS EU.
Anyway, here my response: A) Stephano's record in PL was good and the first GSL season is generally difficult for the foreigners (I don't remember very well but the first time Naniwa competes in GSL, he lost in the ro32 no?) C) That was "just" two bo3 to win, 4 players... This is still quite a thing and his run in the main tournament was pretty great but still, it is not a big tournament. D) I would say 2/4 (WCS eu, IPL 3, and in ESWC, he just has to play a bo3 against MKP) but overall, he competed with the vey best Koreans during his career, like naniwa but he has 4 premiers tournaments wins. E) In this DH winter (and I would say in all DH overall) stephano played terribly, it was his slump just after his recent victories.
Moreover, I would say the impact in the meta has been considered by stuchiu and the perception of the Koreans: he is the only foreigner who has been this much praised by them and well, I honestly cannot say I am objective but at their peaks, I felt like Stephano reached a level that no other foreigner ever had, especially in zvp.
To conclude, yeah, currently, he sucks and NW 3 broke my heart badly. :D
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.
I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro).
Yeah, I almost made a caveat on those two. But when Boxer made Ro4, TLO made Ro64 and no other foreigner did anything. You could argue it was too volatile then, but at the very least no foreigner could claim to be better than Boxer at the time. It also depends on how long a period you're judging by and so on, 'cause Jinro of course made the same run the next season. For Nada, he was mostly impressive all of 2011 - nothing to sneeze at, better than any foreigner. At the very least, people would still be going crazy about Boxer and Nada's performances if they were foreigners. It really was the peak of competition, and while you might argue x, y or z was the better player, the belittling of some is not fair.
The reason Stephano (for me) is the best player is not because he peaked higher relative to worldwide competition (he didn't), but because he did well in a fairly developed scene and game. I loved the start of WoL, but you have to remember it for the somewhat broken game it was, and the competition level for the BitByBit moments it had. When a game really isn't figured out, achievements can't really go towards proclaiming the all time great.
On January 10 2016 19:51 Advantageous wrote: Who voted on this list? Stephano #1? Snute is #1, and Naniwa #2 (only because of his attitude).., But Stephano? #1? Definitely no.
It's solely stuchiu's opinion. But he at least explains the reasoning for his ranking.
Of course, most premier wins, most wins vs top kor offline, most innovations in match ups, best earnings, etc... While not being as tryhard as NaNiwa which is bonus points (prob indicative of more talent).
Just something to keep in mind when we say that a Ro8 in GSL means you're a top foreigner all time
Don't forget jjakji, BoxeR, NaDa, alive, Seed, and RorO
Again, every one of those players was better than any foreigner at the time of their GSL success so that really doesn't belittle it.
I agree about RoRo/Jjakji/Seed. at their relative prime, but including Boxer/Nada here seems wrong. They have less GSL results than Jinro in terms of peak and the general opinion is, that Jinro is inferior to at least Stephano/Naniwa. aLive would be among the top foreigners, just by his international results, even disregarding his GSL results (where he, again is slightly outperformed by Jinro).
Yeah, I almost made a caveat on those two. But when Boxer made Ro4, TLO made Ro64 and no other foreigner did anything. You could argue it was too volatile then, but at the very least no foreigner could claim to be better than Boxer at the time. It also depends on how long a period you're judging by and so on, 'cause Jinro of course made the same run the next season. For Nada, he was mostly impressive all of 2011 - nothing to sneeze at, better than any foreigner. At the very least, people would still be going crazy about Boxer and Nada's performances if they were foreigners. It really was the peak of competition, and while you might argue x, y or z was the better player, the belittling of some is not fair.
The reason Stephano (for me) is the best player is not because he peaked higher relative to worldwide competition (he didn't), but because he did well in a fairly developed scene and game. I loved the start of WoL, but you have to remember it for the somewhat broken game it was, and the competition level for the BitByBit moments it had. When a game really isn't figured out, achievements can't really go towards proclaiming the all time great.
Idra and Loner both made the ro16, when Boxer made the ro4. I'm not trying to belittle Boxer or NaDa, but a comparism between an amout of players always leeds to "x>y". I'm arguing in favor of x here, not because I dislike y. Also, there is the fact, that both of them are much greater RTS-players than any foreigner, because of their bw-days anyway, so again, I don't try to belittle them, I just argue in favor of others.
So let's analyze Boxer first: During his run, he defeated Hapiness, CoreJJang, Loner and NaDa. I think, you can see, that the bracket was quite in his favor here. NaDa (and to a lesser extend also Loner back then) were the only really dangerous players, he faced there. I think if one of the top foreigners in that time (Idra, Jinro, maybe DIMAGA, White-Ra, Morrow) would have gotten the same bracket, it would not be entirely unrealistic, that they could have made the same run. When Boxer faced Nestea in the semis, he lost 0-4. As a comparism lets take Naniwas run from season 2 of 2012: He defated Puzzle, Ryung, Virus and Genius there and lost 1-3 to Mvp. So if those two get compared, both Boxer and Naniwa defeated 4 players and then lost to the eventual champion. The difference is, that Boxer defeated 3 players, who never made Code S and 1 Code S regular (which NaDa was at that time), while Naniwa defeated 2 Code S regulars (Genius was the runner up the season before, had one Code A before that and was always Code S before that, Puzzle had 2 consecutive ro8s before) and 2 players with mixed showings and also took a map of the player, that would go on to win that tournament. I'd argue, that Naniwas run was closer to the relative global peak than Boxers. In every GSL after that, foreigners (Jinro, later HuK) outperformed Boxer.
Boxer also had a good run at MLG Anaheim, but there are foreigner tournament shwoings, that were more impressive that (for example Naniwa at Providence, Huk at Orlando, Stephano at NASL3).
Now let's look at NaDa. I think I may have gotten blinded a bit by his loss to Inca before; when I look at the players he defeated now (Zenio, MKP, Genius, TOP), that is actually quite an impressive list, so you can make a point for that being greater than the peaks of foreigners, although I'm still not sure if I would do that against the mentioned Naniwa-run or some of the weekend-tournaments, Stephano won. I'd also say, that NaDa was defintly not better than every foreigner through the whole year 2011. It may have been true during May, but in his later GSL runs, he can't be judged superior to HuK: In July, both of them made ro16, in GSL August, HuK knocked out NaDa directly in GSL August. There are also his international shwoings: TSL 3 (2-1 TLO, 0-3 Kas) and NASL S1 (knocked out by Morrow) can be blamed on being online. MLG Raleigh does make a case for NaDa, but Assembly 2011 does make a counterpoint (NaDa lost to elfi there and had a pretty one-sided loss against MaNa).
TLDR: The case of being closer to the relative global peak can be made for NaDa, although it isn't entirely conclusive and there were points in 2011, where foreigners were better than him. For Boxer, the case of being closer to the relative global peak can't really be made. Both of them are still great players, but there are foreigners, who are greater (in SC2 ofc, not in RTS).
On January 10 2016 20:47 Poopi wrote: Of course, most premier wins, most wins vs top kor offline, most innovations in match ups, best earnings, etc... While not being as tryhard as NaNiwa which is bonus points (prob indicative of more talent).
When did "tryhard" become a negative term on the internet? I think it is a bit weird, that we talk about passion all the time, but if someone has a lot of it, he is suddenly tryharding and that somehow is a bad thing.
Edit: Just rewatched the NaDa-MaNa series, it was actually closer, than I remembered.
I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to compare eras. If someone was best foreigner early in WoL it should be as much of an accomplishment as it was 3 years later because otherwise you're dragged down by playing in the wrong moment of time. There's no harder or easier era of any game - you can only be compared to your contemporary peers.
To me, you cannot have a player at the top of this list who has never done anything in Korea. It just doesn't count then imo. It would be very interested to have a write-up on how the writers evaluated the whole Korea vs The World thing. To me personally I just think Korea trumps most things. Which is why I disagree with Nani being behind Stephano and why I disagree with Jinro being so low.
We all have our own opinions on what order we'd put the people, but I love reading your notes on each player. All great memories. I'd love a collaboration effort where people vote on great series, and post links. Some of those classic GSL games are hard to find now.
On January 11 2016 06:24 Tryxtira wrote: To me, you cannot have a player at the top of this list who has never done anything in Korea. It just doesn't count then imo. It would be very interested to have a write-up on how the writers evaluated the whole Korea vs The World thing. To me personally I just think Korea trumps most things. Which is why I disagree with Nani being behind Stephano and why I disagree with Jinro being so low.
Stephano had 6-5 result in Korea in Proleague. By comparison: ThorZaIN is 1-4, Snute 0-2, HuK 0-3. His percentage at 55% is sadly the highest for the whole EG-Liquid with HerO coming 2nd with 51% and Oz 3rd with 50%.
On January 11 2016 04:47 nimdil wrote: I'm not entirely sure that it's fair to compare eras. If someone was best foreigner early in WoL it should be as much of an accomplishment as it was 3 years later because otherwise you're dragged down by playing in the wrong moment of time. There's no harder or easier era of any game - you can only be compared to your contemporary peers.
There is definitely a difference, considering that the level of play and knowledge of the game was abysmal compared to today. It allowed for a much more even playing field. Everyone was in the same boat, learning as they went. As time went on the meta crystallized, the required mechanics sky-rocketed, and players that became truly skilled stood out. The rest fell behind, which is why foreigners had less and less of a chance doing well in Korea. To some extent you can only be compared to your contemporaries, but early WoL is unique in this sense. Late WoL is comparatively much closer to LotV in terms of mechanics and knowledge of the game than early WoL is, by a long shot.
i recall smaller European Tourneys watching Naniwa absolutely dismantle top foriegn players. just rofl-stomping them. amongst my friends we started a joke about Naniwa being a hacker. There must be 200 people in an office building in Sweden individually controlling each unit in his game.
gratz to Naniwa and to TL for being pretty objective.
The fact that somebody can think anyone who's had success in Europe in 2014 and 2015 (and even the second half of 2013) can in any conceivable way rank better than Jinro or Idra in any hall-of-fame type environment is headache inducing.
Top 5 are still Stephano Nani Huk Jinro and Idra. You're not top anything if you have never even qualified for a GSL or haven't had a complete and undisputed dominance in the west. Nobody is counted as the greatest of all time for "consistency" in getting top 8s and top 4s in IEMs and Dreamhacks.
People that argue Snute over Naniwa just needs to shut the fck up. You have no clue, period. It's completely different class. Naniwa and Stephano are on their own class.
I would be more interested who were top 5 "The Greatest Foreigners Year 2015" in Starcraft 2. Going by WCS points: 1) Lilbow 3625 2) Snute 2050 3) Bunny 2025 4) MaNa 1775 5) TLO 1550
I must have not been following sc2 as closely during Snute's peak. I certainly recognize him as a great player right now, but I've never had the sense of him being a top 3 of all time.
Stephano was certainly the best and on his own level. But behind him, I can really only see HuK, Jinro, Scarlett, and Idra (maybe Naniwa too if I weren't so biased against his personality :p). They went above and beyond being simply foreign tournament heroes.
I just feel these rankings puts too much emphasis on our random overhyped foreign tournaments, and not enough on actual competitiveness with Koreans.
I think it's too heavily influenced by bias and a culmination of delusions we've kept up over the years.
Also I'd like to add GoOdy to list list of people, who got robbed: The guy had won more tournaments than Stephano and Naniwa combined, he should be an obvious pick for number 1.
At least his contribution to make SC2 popular is underrated.
Thanks for the articles mr Stuchiu. Glad to see Stephano on #1!
The thing I liked most about Stephano is that he hardly ever got visibly nervous. Didn't give a fuck and just tried to play his A-game in any circumstance. This is the only way to become a true champion. Maybe Naniwa had more raw skill and dedication, but he has a hard time keeping his cool.
Snute on 3 is a suprise to me. Maybe I underrated him.
If you analayze all WoL and HotS, there was different eras and different balance changes, and the game changed over the years.
WoL was pretty different compared to HotS, but also the 1st period of WoL with the late WoL, like two different games for some aspects.
In each "era", each player can be compared with another player in the same era. For Example in early WoL, White Ra was one of the best players, thanks to his special tactics too, no joke.
In that era for example, tactics were more important than mechanics. So White Ra was one the best in "that" more tactic game. Sjow also, in the same era he was one of the strongest players, because of his solid strategies and gamesense. And remember TLO plays and Socke micro, and other players.
Then, maps and balance changed all the game over the months and years. Sill will change again.
The aritcle sitll is interesting, but it has not an "absolute" value, it's an opinion, and maybe a bit based on the last results more than past results, but doesn't matter.
In my opinion Stephano is the number one, not only for what he won, but also because in his "era" he could win against any players, and Naniwa follows of course. They impressed me more than all the other players.
On January 12 2016 11:30 GodZo wrote: If you analayze all WoL and HotS, there was different eras and different balance changes, and the game changed over the years.
WoL was pretty different compared to HotS, but also the 1st period of WoL with the late WoL, like two different games for some aspects.
In each "era", each player can be compared with another player in the same era. For Example in early WoL, White Ra was one of the best players, thanks to his special tactics too, no joke.
In that era for example, tactics were more important than mechanics. So White Ra was one the best in "that" more tactic game. Sjow also, in the same era he was one of the strongest players, because of his solid strategies and gamesense. And remember TLO plays and Socke micro, and other players.
Then, maps and balance changed all the game over the months and years. Sill will change again.
The aritcle sitll is interesting, but it has not an "absolute" value, it's an opinion, and maybe a bit based on the last results more than past results, but doesn't matter.
In my opinion Stephano is the number one, not only for what he won, but also because in his "era" he could win against any players, and Naniwa follows of course. They impressed me more than all the other players.
Good post. I remember when in WoL at beginning balance was super bad. We all remember MorroW win tournament with only 1 strategy reaper and win. It was very frustrating to see, because IdrA was miles ahead of all other foreign players at that time (maybe not Jinro).
It is always difficult to make ranking, but overall I think the ranking is okay
I am super much looking forward to next years list to see what happened this year. I think Snute is going to #1 and MarineLord maybe top #5. Snute is already on list and he is in great shape and amazing player. He can beat koreans everyday like it is a walk to the toilet
Stephano deserving of the #1, but Scarlett should have been #2. Cmon... Huk before Scarlett? Hard to take this article seriously if not for Stephano at #1.
On January 12 2016 14:34 ElMeanYo wrote: Stephano deserving of the #1, but Scarlett should have been #2. Cmon... Huk before Scarlett? Hard to take this article seriously if not for Stephano at #1.
Hard to take you seriously when you put Scarlett at #2.
On January 12 2016 14:34 ElMeanYo wrote: Stephano deserving of the #1, but Scarlett should have been #2. Cmon... Huk before Scarlett? Hard to take this article seriously if not for Stephano at #1.
Huk was more successful in both Premier tournaments and in Korea. Scarlett has a sick head-to-head record against Huk, it's hard to argue against Huk overall here.
Also, the top 3 all had pics of them carrying their countries flag, should have kept the theme with the other two. + Show Spoiler +
Scarlett has probably reached a better level than HuK at some point but results wise it's a no brainer, I had HuK after Scarlett but changed it after I saw HuK's results on liquipedia.
I think it wierd that the top 2 article doesnt mention that most tours Stephano won was just foreigners and some decent korean. It doesnt mention Naniwa beating both Nestea and MVP close to when they were at the top of the world. I also think that Stephano was above Naniwa in "Every major criteria" even considering how extremly favored the meta was for zerg when Stephano achieved stuff compared to Naniwa is a tad untrue since Naniwa managed to achieve stuff when the meta wasnt favored.
have no idea how on the greatest foreigners of all time the founders aren't on the list. Pillars, X'ds~Grrrr... Shouldn't put the list as ever if you're only going back 5-10 years.
On January 13 2016 10:58 [s]crusha wrote: have no idea how on the greatest foreigners of all time the founders aren't on the list. Pillars, X'ds~Grrrr... Shouldn't put the list as ever if you're only going back 5-10 years.
This is a SC2 article. SC2 wasn't around 10 years ago. Fairly straightforward stuff.
On January 14 2016 10:00 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: Nerchio better results than MaNa in every way other than being on TLPro -> lower ranking
If we're going on just results, I can think of one player who drops more in the rankings than MaNa...
hey shouldnt u be a fan not a hater atm i won my last thing
Damn. That's a pretty spot on evaluation of SGTK.
I mean, Sasha's one smart cookie, of course she's gonna be spot on with something like that
It's an astute observation, but I'm not sure if reminding you that you should be her fan thereby empowering the SGTK curse is a sound strategic decision.
On January 14 2016 10:00 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: Nerchio better results than MaNa in every way other than being on TLPro -> lower ranking
nerchio has been an extremely good player for a long time and I am not arguing against him deserving a higher ranking than mana because it's hard to quantify but what you are saying isn't true
mana has had better performances in premier tournaments overall when it comes to high placements
nerchio got 1st in a hsc with fairly strong competition and 1st in a DH playing only foreigners those are his only top 4 placements in premier tournaments according to liquipedia unless i missed something
mana has *many* top 4 placements, lots of firsts/seconds and his dh 1st was vs much more impressive competition
On January 14 2016 10:00 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: Nerchio better results than MaNa in every way other than being on TLPro -> lower ranking
nerchio has been an extremely good player for a long time and I am not arguing against him deserving a higher ranking than mana because it's hard to quantify but what you are saying isn't true
mana has had better performances in premier tournaments overall when it comes to high placements
nerchio got 1st in a hsc with fairly strong competition and 1st in a DH playing only foreigners those are his only top 4 placements in premier tournaments according to liquipedia unless i missed something
mana has *many* top 4 placements, lots of firsts/seconds and his dh 1st was vs much more impressive competition
Truth be told Dreamhack: Bucharest which Nerchio won is premier only because it's Dreamhack. If it was renamed to "my SC2 tournament" it would be major competition.
On January 13 2016 10:58 [s]crusha wrote: have no idea how on the greatest foreigners of all time the founders aren't on the list. Pillars, X'ds~Grrrr... Shouldn't put the list as ever if you're only going back 5-10 years.
On January 09 2016 02:18 Ej_ wrote: Blew such a great opportunity to put MLord at #1
You cannot put a new young musician who just had his first number 1 hit on greatest list where people like Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Nina Simone and The Beatles are.
it is too early for MarineLord. Maybe next year when he has good results
I searched my name to find that I am one of the greatest foreigners of all time. Also, something about the Beatles.
On January 14 2016 10:00 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: Nerchio better results than MaNa in every way other than being on TLPro -> lower ranking
nerchio has been an extremely good player for a long time and I am not arguing against him deserving a higher ranking than mana because it's hard to quantify but what you are saying isn't true
mana has had better performances in premier tournaments overall when it comes to high placements
nerchio got 1st in a hsc with fairly strong competition and 1st in a DH playing only foreigners those are his only top 4 placements in premier tournaments according to liquipedia unless i missed something
mana has *many* top 4 placements, lots of firsts/seconds and his dh 1st was vs much more impressive competition
Truth be told Dreamhack: Bucharest which Nerchio won is premier only because it's Dreamhack. If it was renamed to "my SC2 tournament" it would be major competition.
Truth to be told ESWC were major at most and less stacked tham Battle at Berlin lol
Battle in Berlin lacked moey and exposure. Also there were no good koreans there. ESWC 2011 had MC and MKP at least while 2012 had Squirtle and ForGG. Also I have soft spot of national championships (so ESWC and WCG really).
On January 09 2016 02:18 Ej_ wrote: Blew such a great opportunity to put MLord at #1
You cannot put a new young musician who just had his first number 1 hit on greatest list where people like Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Nina Simone and The Beatles are.
it is too early for MarineLord. Maybe next year when he has good results
I searched my name to find that I am one of the greatest foreigners of all time. Also, something about the Beatles.
Where have you gone? Anyway comeback plz cuz blogs are lacking bigtime
I was present in NJ when Stephano won IPL 3 and I was at Red Bull NY when scarlett baneling bombed bomber out of the room
they will always be my two favorite foreigners
Both brilliant players with a bit of flourish to them. I know scarlet is the much quieter one but I always felt her gameplay had all the style necessary to make her memorable
On February 01 2016 16:06 Vari wrote: I was present in NJ when Stephano won IPL 3 and I was at Red Bull NY when scarlett baneling bombed bomber out of the room
they will always be my two favorite foreigners
Both brilliant players with a bit of flourish to them. I know scarlet is the much quieter one but I always felt her gameplay had all the style necessary to make her memorable
I have never seen a premier tournament live in person and it pains me .
Oh well, Vortix at top 10 is ok! IMO Nerchio and Thorzain are really good players too
Making a list like this is always a personal thing but is nice to see how everybody thinks Stephano deserves the num1. His max roach build vs protoss were insane.
Nice list, my biggest gripe is Jinro down at 12th. He still has without any question the biggest single accomplishment for a non Korean in sc2 history.
Stephano Snute NaNiwa Nerchio MaNa HuK Sen Scarlett Jim ThorZaIN
Doesn't say as much as the article list though. That list cares not about opponents or strength of field. Winnings in one tournament can be higher than another one with tougher competition.
HuK only perform in America he maybe make it some time ago and have a decent and strong level but Scarlett was far above him in my opinion. As someone say Vortix was far a better choice in my opinion, Nerchio is a good bet to, Major is also to consider, these players have been so strong for so long going where only Koreans went, being at the top of all tournament they participed, I mean, major tournament, the think HuK done for a bit long time ago and not enouth to deserve a Top 5. HuK is still one of the more overated players....
VortiX is underrated yes, but he hasn't won big iirc. As for HuK vs Scarlett, imo Scarlett have reached higher lvl than him (or maybe his wins versus koreans T were due to abuse, but she still had great mechanics/creep spread) but she hasn't used it to win tourneys, whereas HuK actually had a lot of results, especially if you watch the tourneys he was in in his Liquipedia page. Nerchio is fairly placed because he didn't perform that well offline.
Major? You realize HuK also went to Korea but actually had results there (he was invited at the start but he was able to do decent still), won tourneys, etc, etc... Whereas MajOr highest achievement has been to be praised by Artosis a lot?
edit: potential and skill level are good things to have, but translating these into actual results is as important or even more important.
A bit late to the party, but I wanted to say thanks for the great read and the memories. I just read all 15 entries.
Stephano in his prime truly was a top player in his race. You wrote it like Naniwa was a close second, but I truly don't see how a foreigner ever matches what Stephano did and the impact he had.
That said, the Top 4 were spot on. Snute's career hasn't had those flashy moments that Stephano, Huk and Naniwa had, but his career has been a true grind. If he keeps it, up I see him surpassing Naniwa.
I think some people don't give Idra's greatness/impact/accomplishments enough credit. Some people say you overrated him but I think he deserves Top 5 consideration. He was just so dominant and undoubtedly the top foreigner during those first couple years of the game (imo). Of course, like Naniwa, he truly was his own worst enemy and he quit too soon.
Scarlett is ranked too highly imo. At the end of the day though, the time you put into these articles and research is truly appreciated and I'm a mere peasant. Thanks, stuchiu :D
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
On January 15 2017 08:55 LtCalley wrote: gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
neeb only made his strides after region locking and the overall skill declined. he might deserve to be on the list but definitely not in the top 5 based on 2016 alone which was the least competitive year in starcraft history.
On January 15 2017 08:55 LtCalley wrote: gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
neeb only made his strides after region locking and the overall skill declined. he might deserve to be on the list but definitely not in the top 5 based on 2016 alone which was the least competitive year in starcraft history.
But Neeb has by far the biggest result any foreigner has ever done with his KesPa Cup win. That alone puts him at rank 5 over Scarlett imo because that win was just so massive. And 2016 was definitely not the least competitive year, 2010-2012 were way less competitive because KesPa players didn't switch over yet.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
beating stats and trap in PvP is quite an achievement if you ask me.
But those guys have a list of notable results, Neeb probably deserves a top 15 spot, but top 5 is way too much. At least he is amongst the few active players, and in good form, so his rank can go up while we still have top koreans to make those tournaments GOAT worthy.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
beating stats and trap in PvP is quite an achievement if you ask me.
He won a kespa cup of a single matchup + a lucky bracket, using a meta that no one was familiar with, and soon after it became standard he stopped being so good. I mean Neeb has been amazing but he hasn't overcome many of the past (or even current) legend foreigners just yet. I'm really not trying to bash Neeb because he's great, but those acheivements sound a tad more impressive than they really are.
Like its amazing to get ro4 at WESG you say? a cup stacked with legends like Zerghamdi and Drager?
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
beating stats and trap in PvP is quite an achievement if you ask me.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
beating stats and trap in PvP is quite an achievement if you ask me.
Stats is an archievement. Trap is at best on par with other top foreigners.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
beating stats and trap in PvP is quite an achievement if you ask me.
Stats is an archievement. Trap is at best on par with other top foreigners.
And yet Trap took out TY and Solar, two of the very best Koreans. I haven't seen any other foreigners do that in a series. Elazer and Nerchio took out Solar, but ZvZ is another beast.
Neeb has certainly earned the right to enter this list. I'd personally put him at rank 4 or 5.
On the original list, I feel like Ret has been overlooked. His list of accomplishments :
Assembly Winter 2011 Champion MLG Columbus 2011 top8 Europe Battle.net Invitional 2011 Champion Dreamhack Winter 2011 top4 IEM Sao Paulo 2012 top4 Redbull Lan 1 2012 Champion Dreamhack Stockholm 2012 top4 HSC V Top8 NASL season 2012 season 3 top4 IEM World Championship 2013 top8 IEF 2013 3rd place WCS Season 2015 S2, top16
as well as being already older when sc2 came out, concistenty over 2 titles (bw, sc2), and years of playing at the top foreign lvl, results spanning from 2010 to 2015.
Obviously had a huge dip later in his carreer, but I still think the results speak for themselves, would be in my top10-15.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
Nerchios results were only against foreigners which isn't very impressive (compared to the other players on the list.) In KesPa Cup and blizzcon he got crushed. And Beating Zest, Rogue and Stats certainly isn't easy.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
Nerchios results were only against foreigners which isn't very impressive (compared to the other players on the list.) In KesPa Cup and blizzcon he got crushed. And Beating Zest, Rogue and Stats certainly isn't easy.
crushed is a really hard word. He didn'tget crushed he barely didn't make it out of his groups. I think Nerchio overall one of the strongest foreigners, also showtime is on this list for me. Because it is a lot of harder to rock nowadays than at the early stage where koreans had not all built up to these monster macro machines that they are now.
gotta say after 2016, Neeb has to be in this top 5. I wonder how long it will take to get another list like this, or if the game will be dead when the time comes and another list needs to be made
looking at it now i would still have stephano as #1 for sure...with Scarlett moving up to maybe 3rd place?
always love articles like these though even if they are biased sometimes....they're always interesting to read. sorry if this is too old of a bump
Nerchio has had a similar year as Neeb in 2016, and Nerchios historial results are far better than Nerchio.
And no going through an easy bracket in Kespa cup is not as big of an accomplishment as you make it out to be.
Nerchios results were only against foreigners which isn't very impressive (compared to the other players on the list.) In KesPa Cup and blizzcon he got crushed. And Beating Zest, Rogue and Stats certainly isn't easy.
crushed is a really hard word. He didn'tget crushed he barely didn't make it out of his groups. I think Nerchio overall one of the strongest foreigners, also showtime is on this list for me. Because it is a lot of harder to rock nowadays than at the early stage where koreans had not all built up to these monster macro machines that they are now.
Sick 2 month necro...
Why are people arguing about 2016-2017 foreigners from a list that was designed in 2015?
On May 29 2021 02:04 Locutos wrote: Serral > Reynor > Neeb > Stephano > Naniwa > Clem > Snute > Scarlett > HuK > Showtime?
Stephano is still #1. Recency bias is strong here.
That seems like a pretty hard claim to make, would it have been possible for Serral, or someone else in his era to pass Stephano, or is it more of an idea of the highest skill era that that only old SC2 matter?
Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable.
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable.
Do you actually mean pre-Kespa as in before Kespa switched from BroodWar to SC2? Because from browsing Liquipedia Stephano didn't have any success in tournaments where Kespa pros played as well (which is what this argument is about)
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable.
It's a massive massive stretch to say we can't at least make some statement of the form "literally winning a world finals is better than anything a foreigner did before".
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable.
Do you actually mean pre-Kespa as in before Kespa switched from BroodWar to SC2? Because from browsing Liquipedia Stephano didn't have any success in tournaments where Kespa pros played as well (which is what this argument is about)
Ah, sorry for being inaccurate, for me it was about the death of Kespa teams and proleague. Before the Kespa switch, SC2 was already very competetive, much moreso than now (while of course a bit less than after the switch). In terms of serral vs stephano, there is a very solid argument for serral, but still in the end I think it's not really comparable, because of how completely different the scenes are.
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable.
Do you actually mean pre-Kespa as in before Kespa switched from BroodWar to SC2? Because from browsing Liquipedia Stephano didn't have any success in tournaments where Kespa pros played as well (which is what this argument is about)
Ah, sorry for being inaccurate, for me it was about the death of Kespa teams and proleague. Before the Kespa switch, SC2 was already very competetive, much moreso than now (while of course a bit less than after the switch). In terms of serral vs stephano, there is a very solid argument for serral, but still in the end I think it's not really comparable, because of how completely different the scenes are.
I disagree. Back in 2010-2012 the game was new and nobody knew how to play. Yes, there were a lot of players competing but the skill level was way lower than it is today. I don't thinkStephano winning back then was more impressive than Serral winning now. For the actual Kespa era from 2013-2016 I agree that having good results there is more impressive than having good results now but the only foreigners with success in that era were basically Snute and Scarlett whose achievements just don't compare to Serral/Reynor/Neeb so there's no debate there.
I don't agree that the skill level was lower. They definitely knew less about the game, but I would say that only lasted to 2011, definitely not 2012.
When looking at past games you need to understand the game itself was different. You might look at a game from the past and say "hey, they barely do any creep spread, they suck" but i'ts not that they didn't have the skill to do creepspread, it's not even that they didn't know creep was good for zerg. The reason was that queen sucked. You didn't want to have many of them. That is until they buffed them to be super strong and then zergs starting to use them to defend. And what do they do with so many queens when the enemy isn't atacking? Spread creep. Afterwards the queen was nerfed, but was still stronger than originally, and maps changed, making having vision that much more important.
The only "jump" I can see in skill level was because of the KeSPA training regime, but even then it wasn't anywhere near as big of a jump as people thought (the infamous elephant in the room) because the eSF had already adopted a similar training regime since the start, they just didn't have as much money.
Even though Artosis says the level of play right now is the highest, I don't agree. The fall of actual teamhouses affected the potential. We see great players, we see great plays, but most of it is because they are standing on the shoulder of giants, or are the giants themselves. It's well known Koreans don't practice as much anymore, and that is the only reason why foreigners can compete. The korean advantage was the training regime and teamhouses, without them you get good players but not the best.
I think Serral is overrated as hell in terms of results and I agree that accomplishments in the Kespa years of SC2 should be weighted much more heavily than current results. Serral is still by far the best foreigner though and it's not even close. Stephano won basically nothing with actual top Koreans in attendance. The Koreans Stephano was beating were for the most part the ones who couldn't make it into Code S. No matter how much higher you weight his achievements due to the more competitive era Serral still comes out ahead.
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners.
I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years.
I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places.
It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable.
Do you actually mean pre-Kespa as in before Kespa switched from BroodWar to SC2? Because from browsing Liquipedia Stephano didn't have any success in tournaments where Kespa pros played as well (which is what this argument is about)
Ah, sorry for being inaccurate, for me it was about the death of Kespa teams and proleague. Before the Kespa switch, SC2 was already very competetive, much moreso than now (while of course a bit less than after the switch). In terms of serral vs stephano, there is a very solid argument for serral, but still in the end I think it's not really comparable, because of how completely different the scenes are.
I disagree. Back in 2010-2012 the game was new and nobody knew how to play. Yes, there were a lot of players competing but the skill level was way lower than it is today. I don't thinkStephano winning back then was more impressive than Serral winning now. For the actual Kespa era from 2013-2016 I agree that having good results there is more impressive than having good results now but the only foreigners with success in that era were basically Snute and Scarlett whose achievements just don't compare to Serral/Reynor/Neeb so there's no debate there.
There was a large number of players that took the game very seriously. I'm not sure why everyone knowing less about the game would make it less competetive. Snute and Scarletts achievements can not compare to those of current foreigners, because they had to deal with a hundred koreans playing at a top level instead of 10 and I think it's impossible to predict how either players would perform in a different climate.
On May 30 2021 07:15 [Phantom] wrote: Even though Artosis says the level of play right now is the highest, I don't agree.
He specifically says that skill has been improving, but it's improving more slowly than it would have if Kespa teamhouses were still around. I generally agree with that, and if you go back and watch game from 5 years ago, it's pretty obvious. But yea, the collapse of the teamhouses totally leveled the playing field, agreed on that point. The infrastructure is what Korea always had over the west.
EPT
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